₦airaland Forum

I am following you. Like I said, we will keep crossing paths on Nairaland. We will keep asking and answering the questions. We do not run or quiver.

ChristianFreedo:
Like I said earlier, the question was not for you. Neither do I have your time. That will be my last response to you.

When Jozzy4 is ready with a scriptural response, we will reason together from the scripture, allowing the evidence to lead to the conclusion.

Again, when Jozzy4 is ready, I will be ready. Then I will tag all the jws in nairaland to the following scriptural questions.

1. Is belonging to a religious organization a requirement for everlasting life as taught by watchtower? What does the Bible say is required for one to have everlasting life in God's new word?
2. Is there scriptural proof showing a central control or a central governing body, as practiced and claimed by the watchtower organization, in the first century? did congregations in the first century answer to a ruling body in Jerusalem (governing body) or did they have individual autonomy (as Bible student have prior to the formation of an organization by J. F. Rutherford). Also, did early Christians had to run their decisions by the Jerusalem led governing body?

This are important questions to answer. When Jozzy4 is ready to answer these scriptural questions, I will be read.

ChristianFreedo:
Let's deal with one issue at a time.

Funny,

Both are very special to this thread .

1. as to do with what you presented as ALTERNATIVE

2. As to do with The same ALTERNATIVE as it aims to see if those who accept Christ as Lord are Organized or not .

If we are going to deal with what it takes to have everlasting life, we deal with it. If we are going to deal with if there was a central control or government of the first century where all christian congregation depended on for decisions, as done by watchtower organisation today, then let's deal with it.

Your post above is irrelevant, I asked for an ALTERNATIVE and what you presented as ALTERNATIVE generated the two questions .

So we are still on alternative, all this above are just childish attempts to derail .

I am ready!!!.
Open a thread on any of the two, present your evidence to support your claim as a Jehovah's witness, scriptural evidence. Then tag me, I will respond with a counter evidence, that is if you are wrong.

Choose one topic out of the two. Present your evidence. Then when we are satisfied with it, we move to another.

Seems you quickly forget .

Your response on ALTERNATIVE was given on this thread , Yes or No ?

Logically then, the questions that arise on that post you made should be addressed here .

The two topics are:
1. What does it does it take for one to get save and have everlasting life as a christian. Or most specifically, is a belonging to a religious organisation like watchtower a requirement for everlasting life? ( So the question is not if they worship as a group or as an isolated christian, the question is if belonging to a religious organisation, especially watchtower, a requirement for inheriting God's kingdom)

Yeye dey smell

Does the underlined implied you already accepted they worship as a group of Organized Christian ? not isolated individuals .

- Answer that first then we can move to if such been organized in the first century is a " REQUIREMENT" or Not .

2. Is there any evidence to prove that they was a central control of the christian congregation in the first century?

Open a thread. Choose one topic at a time. Present your evidence. Then tag me. I will present a contrary evidence. One thread for each topic.


Jozzy4

No, we can't open another thread , It has to be solved here because this is where the REPLY of yours that gave birth to the two questions was given .

My evidence for Central authority is in Act 15:2,23,30-31

So I in expect your response to the question above too .

eagerly waiting .

pending ...

You talked about accepting Jesus as Lord .. How do we know a person has accepted Jesus as Lord ? Is it by saying " Jesus is my Lord " or how exactly ?

that's make a 3rd questions .

Note this : All 3 questions arise from the response you gave right here on this thread , So it needs to be properly dealt with here .

achorladey:
His point of reference will centre on this two materials Crisis of conscience and In search of Christian freedom both written by Raymond Franz. Definitely he(christianfreedo) is having his own crisis of conscience and definitely searching for christian freedom. Mr Raymond can only talk when he was finally disfellowship/disassociated. He talked and wrote the books only because he had pressures all around him considering his status within the organization previously.You claim to still be inside of the organization and you are talking silently using the social media. It only means one thing. You know that already. Its easy to say the Jws parrot what the organization dictates. Oga christianfreedo wetin you dey parrot? Words of who? Learn to live quietly and mind your business it might be difficult for you to do just as it is difficult for every christian to do. Yet me must stive hard to do it. But there are boundaries. You have yours set already, keep to it.

The fellow is a confused one . when asked if he has any alternative , he replied in two ways .

his first part if the response is this quoted below

Christianfreedo
The alternative is seek your salvation in Jesus Christ, the author and finisher of your faith. Give your life to him, accept him as your Lord and savior, your mediator and you will have a beautiful reward as sons of God. That is the alternative.

Which led to the question, if the above is the alternative ... then .

- If a person accept Jesus as Lord, Do they worship in isolation or as an Organized group ? ( a case study of first century Christians )

- How do we know someone has accept Jesus as Lord ? is it by shouting Jesus is Lord up and down .. how exactly ?

the two questions as you can see came from his response. So Logically has to be cleared on this thread as it demand further explanation from Christianfreedo if he really knows what he is saying .

fortunately for him he couldn't reply any since , only to keep finding ways to derail which has not been successful for him .



The fellow again in his unclear and confused state of mind demands a thread for the question : are the first century Christians under a Central authority ?

what are the facts ?

In the same response I quoted above, he present another reply with images from the books you mentioned to prove his point that central authority is not necessary among the Christians .

which raised the question for him : Are the first century Christians under a central authority ? or each in isolation ?

Sense require that so far all this are the results of his very own response on this thread, this thread should solve it !!!

christianfreedo
#1 Jesus said am the way, the truth and the life......in this scenario is the point of reference important or not. Do you give heed to the personality that help you to attain such point of view despite the doctrine is valid or not? Yes/No.

#2 Doctrine/policy as to do with religious organisation/ mainstream organisation. When an individual is a subscriber to an organisation and he has grievances concerning some of its doctrines/policies. How best do you channel your grievances? Company law is your friend.......if not how do you settle such biblically. Matthew/gospel account is your friend?

#3 if you have indeed found your christian freedom just like Raymond Franz did which constitute part of your reference point. What is the essence of this thread you created. Have the Jws smeared your reputation like that of Raymond Franz. Then why bother about how JWs go about their finances. Mind your business. One of the difficult things that is very hard for christians to do. You know why? Stay glued!!!

#4 dont tell me he wrote based on assumption that his name was or will be smeared. You know very well how Raymond Franz used that word "assumption" in his writings. At least it is Raymond Franz name that was smeared not yours. You must be doing the things Raymond Franz himself will dislike passionately. Boundaries and grey areas matters. Be alert!!! How do you know the Jws org had/will want to smear is name? Assumptions!!!


#4,5,6 still boils on Paul's words to the Thessalonians learn to live quietly and mind your business. I repeat, this one of christian great challenge. You need to really exert yourself to meet up with this counsel. Dont in forget quickly Paul letter to the phillipians also stress the need to also seek the advantage of others. How will you do it without going beyond the boundaries/grey areas? Boundaries/grey areas matters

#7 Raymond Franz was deeply sorry about those he helped into the organization. Yet you one of his follower is right amidst the Org. All the point highlighted here that some are aware about the Jws org flaws and kept quiet shows they are ready to live quietly and mind their business. Follow the lead of Raymond Franz. He believed only God examines man. He learned to live quietly after he left the organization. He outrightly condemned those using his work as a means of attacking the Jws org.

Jozzy4:
Funny,

Both are very special to this thread .

1. as to do with what you presented as ALTERNATIVE

2. As to do with The same ALTERNATIVE as it aims to see if those who accept Christ as Lord are Organized or not .



Your post above is irrelevant, I asked for an ALTERNATIVE and what you presented as ALTERNATIVE generated the two questions .

So we are still on alternative, all this above are just childish attempts to derail .



Seems you quickly forget .

Your response on ALTERNATIVE was given on this thread , Yes or No ?

Logically then, the questions that arise on that post you made should be addressed here .



Yeye dey smell

Does the underlined implied you already accepted they worship as a group of Organized Christian ? not isolated individuals .

- Answer that first then we can move to if such been organized in the first century is a " REQUIREMENT" or Not .



No, we can't open another thread , It has to be solved here because this is where the REPLY of yours that gave birth to the two questions was given .

My evidence for Central authority is in Act 15:2,23,30-31

So I in expect your response to the question above too .

eagerly waiting .

pending ...

You talked about accepting Jesus as Lord .. How do we know a person has accepted Jesus as Lord ? Is it by saying " Jesus is my Lord " or how exactly ?

that's make a 3rd questions .

Note this : All 3 questions arise from the response you gave right here on this thread , So it needs to be properly dealt with here .

This thread was based on watchtower finances and the deception involved in it. It was you who derailed the thread to alternatives to organizations. Not me. I have no intention to continue in the derailment.

But any day, anytime you are ready to pick up the challenge, I will be ready. I'm already working on it.

All the while, you have been shouting someone is confused, being tossed about... and everything you can think of. I have no interest in trading words or insulting or attacking a person. It doesn't serve any purpose. I'm more focused on issues, issues and issues. I learn everyday, I don't claim to know everything and will continue to learn.

The question are very simple and I'm posting them again. If you feel up to the challenge, as a jehovah's witness, take it up. Defend your watchtower doctrine.

You asked of an alternative, often you do that. But it all based on the core issue, which is, as a jehovah's witness, your watchtower believe is, belonging to a religious organization is a requirement for having God's favor and everlasting. In this case, not just a religious organization, but most specifically, watchtower organization or being a jehovah's witness. That is why you keep asking the questions of show us something better, show us alternatives.

Without dealing with the core issues, it's just a waste of time. We will simply be going round in cycles. So, why not deal with the core issues? Why not allow the Bible answer that core questions?

Also related to that core issue of belonging to organizations (watchtower organization) is the question for central governing body or central control of all congregations. Which watchtower, says is supported in the Bible, (of course, this central control started during the presidency of J F Rutherford).

So, both cases are intrinsically related. Here are the questions, when you take it up, I'll be happy to meet you. Scripturally,

1. Is belonging to a religious organization a requirement for everlasting life as taught by watchtower? What does the Bible say is required for one to have everlasting life in God's new word?

2. Is there scriptural proof showing a central control or a central governing body, as practiced and claimed by the watchtower organization, in the first century? did congregations in the first century answer to a ruling body in Jerusalem (governing body) or did they have individual autonomy (as Bible student have prior to the formation of an organization by J. F. Rutherford). Also, did early Christians had to run their decisions by the Jerusalem led governing body?

This are the issues at stake. The core issue. I'm not interested in your personality. I'm interested in these issues. When you are ready, I will be ready. Then will tag all the jws in this forum. I'm waiting, no matter how long it takes.

So why not start from the root of the issue? Why beats round the bush while we can deal with these issues from the root? What say you? Take up any of these questions, provide what your scriptural proof is, analyze them. Post them. Then tag me.

Note: you keep mentioning isolated Christians. The issue is not about isolated Christians meeting in their homes for worship. Jesus said, where two or three are gathered in his name, he will be there. So, even if I meet with one or two people, it should fulfill that Scriptural requirement of not forsaking the gathering together. But however, for watchtower, it doesn't, it has to be an organization (watchtower organization), with it central control and direction.

Two or three gathering together can be organized and may not be. An organization is different from being organized. For watchtower, is issue is not being organized, because for two or three to be gathered together takes a measure of organizing. For watchtower, the issue is organization, watchtower organization, not being organized.

Jehovah's witness a cult group they are not true Christians

achorladey:
christianfreedo
#1 Jesus said am the way, the truth and the life......in this scenario is the point of reference important or not. Do you give heed to the personality that help you to attain such point of view despite the doctrine is valid or not? Yes/No.

#2 Doctrine/policy as to do with religious organisation/ mainstream organisation. When an individual is a subscriber to an organisation and he has grievances concerning some of its doctrines/policies. How best do you channel your grievances? Company law is your friend.......if not how do you settle such biblically. Matthew/gospel account is your friend?

#3 if you have indeed found your christian freedom just like Raymond Franz did which constitute part of your reference point. What is the essence of this thread you created. Have the Jws smeared your reputation like that of Raymond Franz. Then why bother about how JWs go about their finances. Mind your business. One of the difficult things that is very hard for christians to do. You know why? Stay glued!!!

#4 dont tell me he wrote based on assumption that his name was or will be smeared. You know very well how Raymond Franz used that word "assumption" in his writings. At least it is Raymond Franz name that was smeared not yours. You must be doing the things Raymond Franz himself will dislike passionately. Boundaries and grey areas matters. Be alert!!! How do you know the Jws org had/will want to smear is name? Assumptions!!!


#4,5,6 still boils on Paul's words to the Thessalonians learn to live quietly and mind your business. I repeat, this one of christian great challenge. You need to really exert yourself to meet up with this counsel. Dont in forget quickly Paul letter to the phillipians also stress the need to also seek the advantage of others. How will you do it without going beyond the boundaries/grey areas? Boundaries/grey areas matters

#7 Raymond Franz was deeply sorry about those he helped into the organization. Yet you one of his follower is right amidst the Org. All the point highlighted here that some are aware about the Jws org flaws and kept quiet shows they are ready to live quietly and mind their business. Follow the lead of Raymond Franz. He believed only God examines man. He learned to live quietly after he left the organization. He outrightly condemned those using his work as a means of attacking the Jws org.

1. The essence is creating awareness. I have been a victim of the organization. Now that I know their underhanded dealings, I have to make others know too. To you, it may not satisfy you. To the organization, it will not. I have no interest in satisfying, but I have interest in helping others that have questions that they are afraid to ask, because I feel fear of the organization.

2. When you signed a legal contract with an organization that holds it members captive at a very young age. When you come of age and realize that they are no honorable way of ending such a contract without your name being smeared. When questioning of doctrines brings suspicion, when standing for you believe and know the Bible says brings enragement from people. When you realized you have been belonging to a religious organization who claims to be God's spokesman but is not, then when you realize how many wrongs had been committed, you bear that responsibility to warn others, but as a result of the dangers such warning brings, you also beat that responsibility to protect yourself.

So why do I post what I post? Simply creating awareness. Making Jehovah's witnesses to ask questions they have been afraid to ask. Helping them to realize the dangers posed by the organization policies and doctrines. Reasoning with them from the scriptures where needed.

3. You said about company policies or mainstream organizations policy. You said about settling in reference to Matthew gospel. While that is practical in many situations, at times, if it involves dangers, it's not practical. Many have tried that, many experiences shows any have tried that.

But the organization is an authority. No matter what you may say, no matter the evidence, if the authority decides against it, there is nothing that can be done. Barbara Anderson, Ray frank, etc are many among the many list of jws who have tried that. It simply didn't work, but they were severely punished and ostracized for daring to correct the big organizations. So, why waste my time and effort in an endeavor I simple know will bring the same result? Why not take this matter to the people themselves? I think I have explained this before to you. I owe people such obligations, even those who may have been planning to join the watchtower organization.

4. Maybe you have not read Ray frank book. I suggest you do again. He didn't not write based on assumptions, neither did he say so. He said he wrote to set the record straight, after seeing what the organization has been writing about him. Please see pages 33 - 38 of Crisis of conscience. I'll upload the pages here later. He stated his reasons clearly and the obligation he owe others.

5. Learning to live quietly and to mind their own business does not stop jws from trying to convert people into their captive organization. It doesn't not stop them from using any opportunity they get to castigated religious organizations and individuals in an effort to maintain their claim of being the "only true organization". I believe you understand that learning to live quietly and to mind your own business doesn't stop you from commenting on my thread. From the above, I do not believe you have the moral right to ask me to keep quiet while at it.

6. Please don't misrepresent Raymond Franz words and work. He wrote what he wrote to help people, to create awareness. He emphasis in issues, issues and issues not attacking people. I try to stick to issues. I realize members of jws are not the problem. They don't realize these issues that impact on their lives. Watchtower is the problem, so I address what they do and what's wrong in it. Not members of jws. After all, if tomorrow watchtower says hell exist, all Jws will believe. So I focus on issues.

And may I add, if I don't do what I do. Many will not be aware of these issues. Many were not aware of crisis of conscience or in search of Christian freedom or many other books that discuss deep scriptural issues. But many jws are aware of them today and many will be in the future. Let them consider what the watchtower teaches with research from other sources. If what the watchtower says is true, it will stand the test of scrutiny. Else, it will fall upon scrutiny.

#1 Victim of the organization hmmmmm. do well to give your own account just as Raymond Franz did. The spirit that God gives liberate people and it throws out fear and I know you are aware that the way Raymond Franz wrote his two books emboldens that.

#2 though i find some of their actions incomprehensible, I feel no more authorized, or inclined, to pass judgement on those individuals who have rejected me than I feel of those individuals on me. My sincere wish would be that the future might bring them better days..........you must recognize this words as well

#3 How do you hand over the Jws to the people of the nations as stated in Matthew 18 as rightly said by Jesus Christ?

#4 I did not want to misrepresent his motives at all, I only want you to realise that in the course of your sympathy dont become too emotional and begin to assume things on behalf of Raymond Franz.

#5 you are good in bringing stastics. Give me a breakdown of those that you have helped through those two books on nairaland and those that have been helped all over the world. The change it has brought to the Jws governing body member these past years. The number of Jws visiting nairaland to follow your various thread on all of this issues. The no. Of would be Jws that have backtracked after your numerous post.

#6 I am in no way authorized over your conscience concerning living quietly and minding your business. Do not ignore the boundaries and grey areas that is my concern to you. What you do with it is none of my business. That is my own motive of responding to your post. Your thread carries "hidden facts". Have you on your own personally seek for their financial activities. Give us the post 1990 era. To keep us well updated. How does hw much Jws organisation worth, contributes to Jesus is the way the truth and the life as advocated by Raymond Franz. How do you correlate your contribution to the tonnes of materials you have access to? It all means one thing to me. Attack attack attack. Raymond Franz is totally against that.

christianfreedo

One thing seems evident, however, and that is that mere departure from a religious system under the conviction that it contains serious falsehood does not of itself guarantee freedom. Simply to see error is, in many cases, not enough. Unless one can see why he or she once believed that error, and what was false in the method of argumentation that led one to believe, no great progress is attained, no solid basis for enduring Christian freedom is established. A person could easily abandon one system that proved erroneous and then quickly be taken in by another that likewise promulgates
error, error which may be doctrinally quite different yet which is
often supported by the very same kind of false argumentation and reasoning employed by the previous system.............christianfreedo you recognise this?

For Christian freedom primarily implies a positive freedom not merely a freedom from something but a freedom to something. It is the freedom not simply of not doing but of doing, as well as of being as to what we are in heart and mind as an individual person. Rather than by the mere step of leaving a religious system viewed as false, it is by what we do with our lives after separating from that system that we demonstrate whether true freedom has actually been gained.

Living quietly and minding ones business and seeking the advantage of others has its own grey areas and boundaries.

ChristianFreedo:
This thread was based on watchtower finances and the deception involved in it. It was you who derailed the thread to alternatives to organizations. Not me. I have no intention to continue in the derailment.

But any day, anytime you are ready to pick up the challenge, I will be ready. I'm already working on it.

All the while, you have been shouting someone is confused, being tossed about... and everything you can think of. I have no interest in trading words or insulting or attacking a person. It doesn't serve any purpose. I'm more focused on issues, issues and issues. I learn everyday, I don't claim to know everything and will continue to learn.

The question are very simple and I'm posting them again. If you feel up to the challenge, as a jehovah's witness, take it up. Defend your watchtower doctrine.

You asked of an alternative, often you do that. But it all based on the core issue, which is, as a jehovah's witness, your watchtower believe is, belonging to a religious organization is a requirement for having God's favor and everlasting. In this case, not just a religious organization, but most specifically, watchtower organization or being a jehovah's witness. That is why you keep asking the questions of show us something better, show us alternatives.

Without dealing with the core issues, it's just a waste of time. We will simply be going round in cycles. So, why not deal with the core issues? Why not allow the Bible answer that core questions?

Also related to that core issue of belonging to organizations (watchtower organization) is the question for central governing body or central control of all congregations. Which watchtower, says is supported in the Bible, (of course, this central control started during the presidency of J F Rutherford).

For your information, Am not creating any thread , So far you didn't open a thread when replying me in your presentation of Alternative, which wasn't even sound considering you avoided the major question . How do we know a person has accepted Jesus as Lord?

So yes, If there is any response am gonna give , it would be on this thread .

So, both cases are intrinsically related. Here are the questions, when you take it up, I'll be happy to meet you. Scripturally,

1. Is belonging to a religious organization a requirement for everlasting life as taught by watchtower? What does the Bible say is required for one to have everlasting life in God's new word?

As taught by the scriptures, its very essential to be a part of Gods organized people.


The example of first century Christians even made this further clear, As more and more people joined the apostles , they give themselves to the teachings of the apostles , As time goes by Congregations were formed all been united on the same line of teaching as handed over by the apostles, in each congregation, Elders or overseers are put in place ... For what purpose is all this , is it required for everlasting life ?

Hebrews 13:17

" Be obedient to those who are taking the lead among you and be submissive for they are keeping watch over you

For what are they keeping watch over the other Christians if not to safeguard their Everlasting life ?

2. Is there scriptural proof showing a central control or a central governing body, as practiced and claimed by the watchtower organization, in the first century? did congregations in the first century answer to a ruling body in Jerusalem (governing body) or did they have individual autonomy (as Bible student have prior to the formation of an organization by J. F. Rutherford). Also, did early Christians had to run their decisions by the Jerusalem led governing body?

There was Central authority , which makes it easier for them be one in thought a d united in the same mind as advised in the scriptures .

The events of Act 15 further proved this.

- Why would they send people to Jerusalem, if they didn't recognize a central authority ?

- Why does the Overseer Body in Jerusalem had to send a Letter to all congregation if they are not an authority ?

Can you please address that .

[s]

This are the issues at stake. The core issue. I'm not interested in your personality. I'm interested in these issues. When you are ready, I will be ready. Then will tag all the jws in this forum. I'm waiting, no matter how long it takes.

So why not start from the root of the issue? Why beats round the bush while we can deal with these issues from the root? What say you? Take up any of these questions, provide what your scriptural proof is, analyze them. Post them. Then tag me.

Note: you keep mentioning isolated Christians. The issue is not about isolated Christians meeting in their homes for worship. Jesus said, where two or three are gathered in his name, he will be there. So, even if I meet with one or two people, it should fulfill that Scriptural requirement of not forsaking the gathering together. But however, for watchtower, it doesn't, it has to be an organization (watchtower organization), with it central control and direction.

Two or three gathering together can be organized and may not be. An organization is different from being organized. For watchtower, is issue is not being organized, because for two or three to be gathered together takes a measure of organizing. For watchtower, the issue is organization, watchtower organization, not being organized. [/s]

Addressed!


Reply me strictly with scriptures .

achorladey:
One thing seems evident, however, and that is that mere departure from a religious system under the conviction that it contains serious falsehood does not of itself guarantee freedom. Simply to see error is, in many cases, not enough. Unless one can see why he or she once believed that error, and what was false in the method of argumentation that led one to believe, no great progress is attained, no solid basis for enduring Christian freedom is established. A person could easily abandon one system that proved erroneous and then quickly be taken in by another that likewise promulgates error, error which may be doctrinally quite different yet which is often supported by the very same kind of false argumentation and reasoning employed by the previous system.............christianfreedo you recognise this?

One of the reasons I am in not hurry. Not because I have faith in the current system. I have seen it flaws, I do not have any hope of any reform that touches the fundamental issues, because it will never happen. Men are too invested in power and control. However, as time goes by, I will officially detach myself from a system that my heart had already been detached from.

And yes, it not about joining or being a part of a religious system. I do not jugde my relationship with God based on belonging to the watchtower organisation. I know many do see it that way, I once did, until i woke. Thanks anyway for your interest. Everything in their own time. Everything in their own time.

Jozzy4:
How do we know a person has accepted Jesus as Lord?

The idea of accepting Jesus Christ as our Lord and personal savior came as a result of two distinct background. For the Jews and the Gentiles. Without understanding the background, the idea behind it will not be appreciated.

Jews:
In the arraignment God had for the nation of Israel, the requirement for having God's favor and approval was based on their living in accord with the requirement of the mosaic law. (Ex 19:5,6) Animal sacrifice yearly for their sins, circumcision, love one another etc.

With Christ coming, and after his sacrificial death, no longer was living in accord with the law of Moses a requirement, animal sacrifices gave way, circumcision was not a requirement, the law code was simplified into two, love of God and neighbor, (mainly because love of God and neighbor provided a stronger incentive for doing good and pleasing God, than sets of rules and laws, for love revealed what is in the heart: for anyone can obey rules and laws, as the pharisee did, but obeying laws and rules does not reveal love, mercy and compassion, as was greatly lacking in the dealings of the Pharisee with the common people. Therefore, laws gave way with the arrival of Christ. Love was the law's fulfillment, "it was their tutor, leading them to Christ".)

But the problem was, being declared righteous for the Jews was dependent on living in accord with the laws of Moses, animal sacrifice, circumcision, mosaic laws. Those were the yardstick for being viewed as someone who has lived a righteous life and seen to have God's favor. For converted Jews,Christians, followers of Christ, non of those was a requirement. All that was ever needed was for them to exercise faith in Jesus, be baptized and they salvation was guaranteed. (not in the area of one's saved always saved) Jn 3:16 -18. For it is with the heart one exercises faith in God's son, but with the mouth he made his public declaration that his salvation depended on Jesus, be baptized and is saved.



That is the primary reason the apostle Paul wrote his letter to the Galation Christians. (Please read Galatians chapters 1-6, possibly using New Living Translation to see the words come alive.) It is evident from Paul's letter that a similar situation you find in Acts 15, were certain men caused trouble for the congregation, also occurred in the Galatian Congregation. In this case, these men were teaching that obeying the mosaic law was necessary for their salvation. (Ga 1:6-9) Reading Ga 2:2, the apostle showed that he presented the same good news to the those highly regarded, privately, the good news about the Christ, having faith in him was all that was needed, not obeying the mosaic law or circumcision. He strongly made a case for it, against those who were highly regard, for fear his works for Christ was in vain. Simply put, he needed to correct the errors they were bringing into the congregation that obeying the mosaic law was an important requirement. How would his work supposed to be in vain, if the insistence of mosaic law requirement succeeded - that righteousness was through the mosaic law, then, said he, Christ died for nothing (Ga 2:21)

Chapters 3 particularly showed what he issue was, it was about seeking to be declared righteous by keeping the law of Moses. (verse 2,3)

The point is, for a converted Jew, keeping to the laws of Moses and other requirement of the law was not a yardstick to receiving God's blessing. They received God's spirit by simply havign faith in christ, not as a result of their works. Seeking to be declared righteous by works became like a sin to them, for no amount of their works or human effort could ever lead them to being save. Christ had done all that for them.No wonder the apostle Paul called them senseless (Ga 3:1, 3,) All it took for them was to have faith in their heart, publicly showed that faith by baptism.

In that case, for a converted Jew, accepting Christ their Lord and personal savior meant that not living according to the Jewish customs of worship. But following the new way of life, which Christ had established.

Gentiles:
Gentiles or people of the nation were very separate, different from the Jews. They worshiped idols, made of wood and stones, offer sacrifices etc. They were involved in all sort of immoral practices, not like the Jews themselves were not. (But at least, while Jesus was on earth, I believe such practices were limited, an exception rather than the rule. For Jesus did not condemn them for such practices as Idolatry, immorality but most about their lack of love, mercy, justice. He condemned the Pharisees for their strict adherent to the laws, while allowing important things like mercy, justice and love to suffer.)

So for them accept Christ as their Lord and savior, it meant they would have to depend on Christ for their salvation, not on their idols or images or their personal strength. Most of these gentiles did so, but as they became Christians, some Jews that were still stuck to the past,of law keeping wanted them to follow suit,claiming "unless you are circumcised according to the law of Moses, you cannot be saved" (Ac 15:2,compare with Ga 3:2-5) Of course, these were Christians, salvation was not based on the laws of Moses anymore. It was based on having faith in Christ.

Without understand the bases for the call to believe Jesus as our Lord and savior, you cannot understand who is doing so and who is not. We are Nigerians, we had our traditional believe and gods, with their own reward and punishment system. In the real sense of the word, we were gentiles. However, decades ago, some men brought the Christian God to us, they brought the gospel about Jesus to us and our forefathers accepted it. They left their own gods, decided to believe in these Christian God and his son Jesus. They had faith in him, publicly declare it by water baptism.

Many other came into these worlds, decades later and were introduced into the same belief system. Others were Islam, then heard the gospel of the Christ, had faith in him and also publicly declared that faith by water baptism. Of course, we all have a choice, we can choose to return to our traditional gods, become atheist, or decide to believe in nothing at all. But for those who had decided to believe in this foundation stone, which is Jesus (1 Co 3:11), they chose not to have "salvation in anyone else, for there is not another name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved." (Ac 4:12), these ones are the ones who are conscious of their spiritual needs (Mt 5:3), they have demonstrated in words and action that they believe in Jesus for their salvation, not in their local gods or the detects of the mosaic law.

So, to your question, How do we know a person has accepted Jesus as Lord?, look around you, ask your neighbor, ask them their believe, who they depend on for salvation. I am sure, out 10, you will meet at least 2.

*************************************************************
You said I avoided your question,or looking for where to copy, well, I do not have much to say, other than "wisdom is proven righteous by its works". (Lu 7:35) It's not everything you respond to. I simply understood that we were not dealing with the main issue, which is, what must one do to be save? That is what we needed to address, any other thing was a distraction, simply not dealing with the root problem.

As a Jehovah's witnesses, I understood where you were coming from. It is your believe that no matter what an individual do, living a sinless life, believing Christ, giving to the poor, even preaching the gospel every minute of the clock, etc, if that individual is not a member of the religious organisation of Jehovah's witness, then he has wasted his time and energy. That is your watchtower belief. That was the main issue. Therefore, I wanted us to address that issue, does the bible teach that belonging to the watchtower organisation is a yardstick to gain God's favor? What does the bible say, is a requirement to everlasting life?

Well, like you said, you have not interest in taking up the challenge. I understand, it not comfortable. I will not worry you any longer. When I open one, I am sure you will be there to comment.

ChristianFreedo:
The idea of accepting Jesus Christ as our Lord and personal savior came as a result of two distinct background. For the Jews and the Gentiles. Without understanding the background, the idea behind it will not be appreciated.

Jews:
In the arraignment God had for the nation of Israel, the requirement for having God's favor and approval was based on their living in accord with the requirement of the mosaic law. (Ex 19:5,6) Animal sacrifice yearly for their sins, circumcision, love one another etc.

With Christ coming, and after his sacrificial death, no longer was living in accord with the law of Moses a requirement, animal sacrifices gave way, circumcision was not a requirement, the law code was simplified into two, love of God and neighbor, (mainly because love of God and neighbor provided a stronger incentive for doing good and pleasing God, than sets of rules and laws, for love revealed what is in the heart: for anyone can obey rules and laws, as the pharisee did, but obeying laws and rules does not reveal love, mercy and compassion, as was greatly lacking in the dealings of the Pharisee with the common people. Therefore, laws gave way with the arrival of Christ. Love was the law's fulfillment, "it was their tutor, leading them to Christ".)

But the problem was, being declared righteous for the Jews was dependent on living in accord with the laws of Moses, animal sacrifice, circumcision, mosaic laws. Those were the yardstick for being viewed as someone who has lived a righteous life and seen to have God's favor. For converted Jews,Christians, followers of Christ, non of those was a requirement. All that was ever needed was for them to exercise faith in Jesus, be baptized and they salvation was guaranteed. (not in the area of one's saved always saved) Jn 3:16 -18. For it is with the heart one exercises faith in God's son, but with the mouth he made his public declaration that his salvation depended on Jesus, be baptized and is saved.



That is the primary reason the apostle Paul wrote his letter to the Galation Christians. (Please read Galatians chapters 1-6, possibly using New Living Translation to see the words come alive.) It is evident from Paul's letter that a similar situation you find in Acts 15, were certain men caused trouble for the congregation, also occurred in the Galatian Congregation. In this case, these men were teaching that obeying the mosaic law was necessary for their salvation. (Ga 1:6-9) Reading Ga 2:2, the apostle showed that he presented the same good news to the those highly regarded, privately, the good news about the Christ, having faith in him was all that was needed, not obeying the mosaic law or circumcision. He strongly made a case for it, against those who were highly regard, for fear his works for Christ was in vain. Simply put, he needed to correct the errors they were bringing into the congregation that obeying the mosaic law was an important requirement. How would his work supposed to be in vain, if the insistence of mosaic law requirement succeeded - that righteousness was through the mosaic law, then, said he, Christ died for nothing (Ga 2:21)

Chapters 3 particularly showed what he issue was, it was about seeking to be declared righteous by keeping the law of Moses. (verse 2,3)

The point is, for a converted Jew, keeping to the laws of Moses and other requirement of the law was not a yardstick to receiving God's blessing. They received God's spirit by simply havign faith in christ, not as a result of their works. Seeking to be declared righteous by works became like a sin to them, for no amount of their works or human effort could ever lead them to being save. Christ had done all that for them.No wonder the apostle Paul called them senseless (Ga 3:1, 3,) All it took for them was to have faith in their heart, publicly showed that faith by baptism.

In that case, for a converted Jew, accepting Christ their Lord and personal savior meant that not living according to the Jewish customs of worship. But following the new way of life, which Christ had established.

Gentiles:
Gentiles or people of the nation were very separate, different from the Jews. They worshiped idols, made of wood and stones, offer sacrifices etc. They were involved in all sort of immoral practices, not like the Jews themselves were not. (But at least, while Jesus was on earth, I believe such practices were limited, an exception rather than the rule. For Jesus did not condemn them for such practices as Idolatry, immorality but most about their lack of love, mercy, justice. He condemned the Pharisees for their strict adherent to the laws, while allowing important things like mercy, justice and love to suffer.)

So for them accept Christ as their Lord and savior, it meant they would have to depend on Christ for their salvation, not on their idols or images or their personal strength. Most of these gentiles did so, but as they became Christians, some Jews that were still stuck to the past,of law keeping wanted them to follow suit,claiming "unless you are circumcised according to the law of Moses, you cannot be saved" (Ac 15:2,compare with Ga 3:2-5) Of course, these were Christians, salvation was not based on the laws of Moses anymore. It was based on having faith in Christ.

Without understand the bases for the call to believe Jesus as our Lord and savior, you cannot understand who is doing so and who is not. We are Nigerians, we had our traditional believe and gods, with their own reward and punishment system. In the real sense of the word, we were gentiles. However, decades ago, some men brought the Christian God to us, they brought the gospel about Jesus to us and our forefathers accepted it. They left their own gods, decided to believe in these Christian God and his son Jesus. They had faith in him, publicly declare it by water baptism.

Many other came into these worlds, decades later and were introduced into the same belief system. Others were Islam, then heard the gospel of the Christ, had faith in him and also publicly declared that faith by water baptism. Of course, we all have a choice, we can choose to return to our traditional gods, become atheist, or decide to believe in nothing at all. But for those who had decided to believe in this foundation stone, which is Jesus (1 Co 3:11), they chose not to have "salvation in anyone else, for there is not another name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved." (Ac 4:12), these ones are the ones who are conscious of their spiritual needs (Mt 5:3), they have demonstrated in words and action that they believe in Jesus for their salvation, not in their local gods or the detects of the mosaic law.

So, to your question, How do we know a person has accepted Jesus as Lord?, look around you, ask your neighbor, ask them their believe, who they depend on for salvation. I am sure, out 10, you will meet at least 2.

*************************************************************
You said I avoided your question,or looking for where to copy, well, I do not have much to say, other than "wisdom is proven righteous by its works". (Lu 7:35) It's not everything you respond to. I simply understood that we were not dealing with the main issue, which is, what must one do to be save? That is what we needed to address, any other thing was a distraction, simply not dealing with the root problem.

As a Jehovah's witnesses, I understood where you were coming from. It is your believe that no matter what an individual do, living a sinless life, believing Christ, giving to the poor, even preaching the gospel every minute of the clock, etc, if that individual is not a member of the religious organisation of Jehovah's witness, then he has wasted his time and energy. That is your watchtower belief. That was the main issue. Therefore, I wanted us to address that issue, does the bible teach that belonging to the watchtower organisation is a yardstick to gain God's favor? What does the bible say, is a requirement to everlasting life?



Well, like you said, you have not interest in taking up the challenge. I understand, it not comfortable. I will not worry you any longer. When I open one, I am sure you will be there to comment .

Go back to my previous post where I addressed the two questions and quote me properly . @ blue .

You are still blabbing Sir with the above, Going by your postulation every so called Christian has accept Jesus as Lord since they have forsaken their idols . you are clueless @Green


Then you went ahead to mention " Action" to make it look like you know what you are saying .. Now, by Action .
. What does that involve ? Do they worship in isolation or as an organized group of Christians ? Do they who accept Christ also obey his commandment including that which said preach the Goodnews of Gods kingdom ? @ highlighted

All this are areas you omitted. , as for me asking my neighbours ... My neighbours are scattered in various religions with different doctrines yet all claim to accept Jesus as Lord . [b] I thought the true Christ disciples will be " one " and united in the same line of thought ? .

I already see you have no idea of this question, now go back and address my previous post which you avoided .

Jozzy4:
Go back to my previous post where I addressed the two questions and quote me properly . @ blue .

You are still blabbing Sir with the above, Going by your postulation every so called Christian has accept Jesus as Lord since they have forsaken their idols . you are clueless @Green


Then you went ahead to mention " Action" to make it look like you know what you are saying .. Now, by Action .
. What does that involve ? Do they worship in isolation or as an organized group of Christians ? Do they who accept Christ also obey his commandment including that which said preach the Goodnews of Gods kingdom ? @ highlighted

All this are areas you omitted. , as for me asking my neighbours ... My neighbours are scattered in various religions with different doctrines yet all claim to accept Jesus as Lord . [b] I thought the true Christ disciples will be " one " and united in the same line of thought ? .

I already see you have no idea of this question, now go back and address my previous post which you avoided .

I have given many responses to your questions and not even ones have I insulted you. It seems you are an expert at insulting. I will give no further response to you. Have a good day

we can print a book much cheaper, check www.kfprinter.com

ChristianFreedo:
How the Watchtower Was Financed (pre-1990)
by Randy Watters

How is the kingdom work financed?

Some might think it is done by money obtained from the Bibles and Bible literature produced by the Society, but this is not so. The small contribution received from persons that take literature does not cover the cost of operating the Society's activities. The Watchtower, May 1, 1960, p.265

The Watchtower has always been careful in their wording of sentences, so as to convey an idea that they are not actually verbalizing. The above statement gives the impression that the sales of books and literature does not cover their cost of producing it. However, they did not say this specifically, but used the phrase, "operating the Society's activities." If they were to be honest, they should say, "The small contribution received from persons that take literature covers most all of our entire organizational needs, including missionaries, branch offices, and so on. The other small percentage comes from free will contributions."

Conveying the wrong impression is their specialty. Note the similar statement from the May 1, 1948 Wztchtower, p. 140 (my comments are added in italics):

"Hence, in sincerity, persons often inquire as to how a work of such magnitude is maintained, it being obvious that there is no monetary gain to the field ministers for publishing the message and likewise no monetary gain to the Society. [Not for just talking to the householder, no! But for selling the books & magazines, yes!] True, some money is contributed for the literature printed, but the money donations received at the time that the Society's printed publications are placed with the people are applied toward printing and distributing more Bible study helps; but such money donations fall far, far short [they only cover most of the costs] of sufficiency to carry on the Society's global work. Money gifts, in addition to the gifts for the literature, are financing our work in all lands. All this is by the grace of Jehovah God."

Similarly, the next statement appears in an insert of the Our Kingdom Service, a bulletin given to those who are actively engaged in selling the Society's literature:

"Where does the money come from?

"This is a question often asked by people of this materialistic world. It is no secret. Some of the printing and shipping costs are covered by the contributions received for the literature placed in the field. But monies from this source nowhere near cover the Society's expenses in this inflationary age." Our Kingdom Service, Dec. 1980, p.3

The bulletin goes on to appeal for contributions to keep the presses at Brooklyn rolling.

People often ask how the Watchtower can print their books and magazines and make a profit, since they seem to cost so much less than other books on the market. A basic understanding of printing costs and the Watchtower method provides the answer. The following is an illustration.

To illustrate: The most expensive cost in printing is usually the labor. The Watchtower has solved that problem by having all their work done by volunteers--none are paid. Second, there is no middleman to be paid--the Watchtower does all the advertising, marketing and shipping. Third, the more copies of a book printed, the lower its cost. While it may cost a secular printer $5 each to print 5000 copies of a book, that same book may only cost him $2 per book if he prints 100,000 copies. This is due to more efficient use of labor and machinery, buying paper in huge quantities, etc.

To illustrate, let's look at what a typical book on the secular market might cost:

Retail cost: $12.95

Wholesale cost to bookstore: $7.77

Cost to publisher: $3.50

Cost of materials in book: 45 cents

As you can see, most of the book's cost is absorbed in labor and marketing costs. Of course, the same is true in all forms of manufacturing. The final product may actually only cost the manufacturer 5% of the retail price with items such as cosmetics, certain fast foods, housewares, etc. The retailer, however, only makes about 30-40% in profit.

HOW THE WATCHTOWER DOES IT

The Watchtower has created an instant market for its publications. To release just one new book at a yearly District Assembly brings automatic sales of at least five million books. At a NET profit rate of over 50% per book, one can grasp the immediate benefit. (Having been involved in figuring the costs of their books and magazines while working in the printing offices in New York, I am aware of their expenses and overhead in this area). With a magazine circulation of well over eleven million per week and approximately 16 cents profit per magazine, their income from magazines alone would exceed $1,780,000 per week. Mind you, theirs is a guaranteed market, regardless of how good the magazines are.

This circulation must be carefully maintained, however. Two meetings per week (the Service Meeting and the Theocratic School) in the local Kingdom Halls are scheduled by the Branch offices in order to demonstrate the sales pitches for the books and magazines. Each month there is a special offer, and sample presentations are rehearsed at these meetings, as well as the morning meetings for field service held all over the world in each Kingdom Hall or private home. In other words, each Witness is exposed to at least two and possible more hours per week in a sales meeting atmosphere, to prepare them for and to encourage them in selling as many books and magazines as possible. These same Witnesses take their books and magazines out to the public, proclaiming that they represent "God's organization" and are financed strictly by contribution, and proceed to point out the wrongs of the churches in their passing of a collection plate! Such hypocrisy goes unnoticed by the Witness himself, for he is ignorant of the Society's methods.

The Annual Summary of the British Branch of the Watchtower has been made available recently for the years 1982-1985. We have reproduced the 1985 statement in this article, and also give the figures for the other years in a chart. This is helpful, since the U.S. branch of the Watchtower will not give out any financial figures. These documents, which remain hidden from the Witnesses themselves, illustrate the real source of income for the Watchtower. On pages 119-120 of the publication Organized To Accomplish Our Ministry, printed in 1983, the Watchtower discusses how they are financed. Not only in this book, but in many other articles claiming to give the financial picture of the Watchtower over the last 15 years, they fail to disclose their primary source of income. Rather, they seek to convey the impression that their income comes strictly through free will contributions, with a few estates being denoted as well. No mention is made of the MAJOR source of their income, which is the distribution of books and magazines. The local Witness, in turn, makes the deceptive statement that contributions are to COVER the cost of literature received, as if the price they pay is what it cost to actually produce the book. He is unaware of the facts.

IS IT WRONG TO GENERATE FUNDS THIS WAY?

It is not wrong for a religious organization or nonprofit corporation to receive income from the offering of literature. This ministry receives about 30% of its income from contributions for literature (the rest comes from free will donations). What is WRONG is to seek to hide the MAJOR source of their income from those who support the organization, while deliberately and consistently conveying a different impression in order to set themselves apart as "Goddirected," as opposed to the way other organizations are financed. Jehovah's Witnesses will point out the wrongness of churches having raffles and Bingo games, tithing and passing the collection plate in order to support themselves, yet are completely oblivious to the fact that they are the ones carrying on the REAL deception. At least many other organizations, including many cults, make it known that their particular programs help fund their organizations! The Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses stands out among all of these, for they have not even hinted at their TRUE source of income.

THE ANNUAL REPORT

The British Branch report reproduced in this Newsletter is divided into receipts (money taken in) and expenses (money paid out). If we ignore the transfers between the Brooklyn Branch and the British Branch (which always result in a gain to the Brooklyn branch office), we can figure the percentages of income that come from donations and legacies (wills, etc.) and compare that with their total income from the sales of books and magazines, in order to see their real yet carefully disguised source of income.

While figures are not available from the main branch in the United States, it is obvious that the figures would be similar. Unfortunately, such documentation cannot be obtained in the U.S. at present.

Studying four successive years of reports from the same branch office reveals a steady increase in book and magazine sales, and a decrease in charitable contributions percentagewise. This information is helpful in pointing out to the Jehovah's Witness and their studies that the Watchtower is keeping information from them that reveals their real source of income. Rather than God moving on the hearts of people to contribute to the Watchtower, they are steadily increasing a financial empire, training salesmen as they go. One is not counted as a true Jehovah's Witness in the records reviewed annually by the Circuit Overseer if he does not spend time selling books and magazines door to door. Thus, to be a JW, you must help fund the Watchtower by selling their literature.

EXPANDING THEIR EMPIRE

The Watchtower continually portrays themselves as being modeled after the early church in matters of giving and financing their work. Note this statement in The Watchtower of Feb. 15, 1970:

"Some may argue that it costs more money today to carry out the functions of a church, and if voluntary contributions do not cover expenses, then some means must be used to raise the money. But think a moment. Bible principles do not change, do they? If God enriched the first Christians and moved their hearts to generosity, will he not also do that today among true Christians, and that without high pressure persuasion? (2 Cor. 9:8-14) But is there a body of Christians today who follow Bible principles when it comes to money, and who work zealously to aid others spiritually?" (p.101-102)

The impression is given that all of the Watchtower's funding comes through contribution. Apparently only about 10% does.

In addition to regular expenses, the Watchtower has special projects that are funded by other means, often in the form of loans or special contributions. In 1980 special efforts were made to obtain loans and pledges in the individual congregations, by means of letters read to the congregations and sent by the branch offices. Details were not made available in the Watchtower magazines, however.

Several large projects were in the works in the late 1970's. The first big move was the acquisition of the Towers Hotel in Brooklyn Heights, New York, in order to house more workers for the headquarters there. This way, 1000 more workers could live and work there. Since their food is grown and raised on Watchtower Farm 90 miles upstate from Brooklyn, and volunteers aren't paid except for a few dollars a month, it is relatively inexpensive to bring in more workers.

Much greater, however, was the need to expand the printing operation both in quality and quantity. When I came to Bethel in 1974, the printing equipment was greatly outdated. One of the first presses that I operated was built in 1926! Even the newer ones were letterpress machines; an older, inefficient design incapable of printing on good paper or in more than two colors at a time. When I was later appointed as a floor overseer, I was also involved in experimental methods of printing, and would travel to places like the Government Printing Office in Washington D.C. or W.R. Grace Inc. to see how "worldly" people were printing.

I think the most amazing thing I learned was that the Factory Committee and the Governing Body (as well as the late Nathan Knorr) were quite unawares of what "efficiency" was all about. The attitude I continually picked up from men such as Calvin Chyke and Richard Wheelock of the Factory Committee was that 'this is God's organization, and we don't care how the world is doing it.' As a result, much money was wasted in gross inefficiency. Press operators would often be told to run their presses prematurely and throw away the printed material, just to impress paper salesmen or important people on tour.

This can be illustrated by what happened in 1979. The Governing Body decided that they wanted to upgrade the quality of the magazines, using better paper and better pictures. The Factory Committee decided that instead of scrapping their old, outdated presses, they would renovate them. They brought in Japanese press manufacturers to estimate the cost to renovate 60 presses, including some being used in other branches. The estimate was for 60 million dollars to convert these older letterpresses to offset printing! The Factory Committee wanted to go ahead with it.

This brought panic into the hearts of four of us who were the overseers of the pressroom. We had done experimental work for about two years, and knew this was a wrong move for them. They had already purchased a custom WoodHoe press for $1,600,000 that turned out to be a lemon that they couldn't even sell. I know, because I was asked to try and get it operating. I did, but the quality was like rubber stamp printing! The press sat there for several years, while tour guides boasted of its capacity to print 100,000 books per day. We finally printed 200,000 books, all right, but many were trashed and the others were sold to Bethelites at half price. Attempts were made to sell the press to buyers in China, but it fell through.

Anyway, we knew the cost of renovating the 60 old presses to far exceed what was necessary. Three of us worked together secretly on a cost comparison project that proposed to SCRAP all the old presses, and buy brand new Harris offset presses (like the ones we were already using to print My Book of Bible Stories). For a cost of only $12 million, we could buy twelve presses that would take the place of all 60 of the others, and yielding much greater quality! We worked feverishly getting figures together, talking with "worldly" printing experts. The Pressroom Overseer then submitted this proposal to the Factory Committee, and secretly submitted a copy to one member of the Governing Body (who is still at Bethel), just in case they decided to reject it. Well, reject it they did, laughing it off as the presumptuous efforts of young whippersnappers. But a couple of members of the Governing Body did not think it so foolish to save $48 million, and some time later, after hearing nothing from the Factory Committee, asked them about it. The Factory Committee then submitted the proposal to the GB after checking the figures with us, and thus they finally carried the plan out. No thanks were given to those of us in the pressroom! However, that was no surprise; and besides, we were occupied with discovering what the Governing Body knew about 1914 and the Gentile Times that they weren't telling anybody.

Although this was their most expensive near-mistake, there were other mistakes unknown to even those working at the headquarters. In the late 70's efforts were made to introduce a new phototypesetting computer system much more complex than was currently used on the outside. Equipment was rented from IBM at a cost of about $30,000 per month that sat there for over a year, because of problems with programs and personnel. Why personnel? At Bethel, an overseer may be put in charge of a department that knows nothing about the department itself. He is simply an authority figure. If it appears that others with lesser seniority than he is trying to suggest what to do, he may resent this and cause problems for that individual (usually a "new boy" brought in from the outside, not used to Bethel's unwritten "pecking" order), often forcing him to leave Bethel in frustration. Many left in frustration over the computer issue alone during 19791980. Finally, they brought in a JW computer expert, housing his family in a private flat next to Bethel, sending the kids to school and paying him several thousand a month salary besides, just to get the system operating.

The Watchtower of Feb. 1, 1982 makes mention of the Towers Hotel project as well as the printing expansion and the computer equipment. Of course, no mention is made of the above details, for this would expose too much.

To help cover the cost of purchasing additional equipment, the cost of The Watchtower and Awake! magazines went from 10 cents to 15 cents per copy as of Sept. 1, 1981.

Currently, the Watchtower has been using other hotels in Brooklyn Heights that were purportedly purchased by private JW businessmen who agreed to loan space out to the Bethel complex, using such facilities until their next project is completed. What is it? A brand new 31-story building right next to the office complex at 30 Columbia Heights.

With the Sept. 1, 1984 issue, the Watchtower and Awake! went to 20 cents per copy. (The price went up to 25 cents in Sept. 1987.)

Summary

The Watchtower verbally shuns any kind of fundraising or the giving of pledges or the paying of ministers. Yet at the same time, they [1] carry on the most extensive literature sales in the world, unrivaled by any organization, [2] they have repeatedly solicited pledges, in the form of the "Good Hopes" donation arrangement or "contribution prospects", 1 and [3] have regularly given a salary to Bethel home workers, Circuit and District Overseers, and missionaries.

Why doesn't the average JW see through all of this doubletalk? Because he simply doesn't know the facts. He has been told that the Society doesn't make any money from selling literature, and that it all comes through donations. Imagining himself in a superior position, the JW then derides other religious organizations for their financial practices. Moreover, he is ignorant of what the Bible says about supporting Christian ministry, because the Watchtower has distorted this as well. He is trained not to question the Watchtower, fearing that he might become an "apostate" for such doubts. Such techniques are reminiscent of Orwell's Socialistic Society (Ingsoc) typified in his book 1984:

". . . The speculations which might possibly induce a skeptical or rebellious attitude are killed in advance by his early-acquired inner discipline. The first and simplest stage in the discipline, which can be taught even to young children, is called, in Newspeak, crimestop. Crimestop means the faculty of stopping short, as though by instinct, at the threshold of any dangerous thought. It includes the power of not grasping analogies, of failing to perceive logical errors, of misunderstanding the simplest arguments if they are inimical to Ingsoc, and of being bored or repelled by any train of thought which is capable of leading in a heretical direction." 1984, p. 174-175