LordReed:


I literally had headaches thinking about the characteristics of the god as a Christian. It was like trying to untangle a ball of spaghetti with every strand leading to madness.

XxSabrinaxX:


There's more where that came from, but let's leave it at 5 bible verses.

budaatum:

It is beautiful seeing the other cheek turned!

XxSabrinaxX:

I believe that God does not exist. I did not choose to.

XxSabrinaxX:

.....I didn't get you

budaatum:

I'm admiring your patience.

XxSabrinaxX:
Ok

XxSabrinaxX:
In his omnipotence, he has the power to affect all of these little influences such that every "free will" outcome is possible and every type of universe is possible. If not, then he is not omnipotent. But if you agree that he did have the power based solely on the specific design of each detail of the universe, then the details he chose mean that he necessarily chose this specific outcome, which includes the exact universe we have now and will have til the end of time. TL;DR, the answer is yes.

XxSabrinaxX:
This is basically your first question. Check out my answer to it

XxSabrinaxX:
LoL . Why so butthurt all of a sudden? You implied that you don't want to overload me with information and i simply called you out on your claim. You're calling me a bitch when I actually haven't dissed you in any way so relax and don't get your knickers in a twist.

XxSabrinaxX:
Hell is implied in many parts of the bible to be eternal.
1. Isaiah 66:22-24

22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord.
24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

2. Daniel 12:1-2
At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time. But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book. And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

3. Matthew 25:31-46
When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on his right, “Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.” . . . Then he will say to those on his left, “Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. . . . And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

4. Revelation 14:9-11
If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink the wine of God’s wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.

5. Revelation 20:10, 14-15
And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. . . . Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
There's more where that came from, but let's leave it at 5 bible verses.

XxSabrinaxX:
You've basically admitted that God initiated the sin loop that man is being subjected to now.

XxSabrinaxX:
God is omniscient and so he knew Adam and Eve would eat of the fruit, so why didn't he stop them? Isn't he benevolent? Or better yet, if he's so merciful, why didn't he just get rid of the serpent and let Adam and Eve eat from the tree of life?
How do you justify this?

TheArranger:
I'm not even going to bother and answer to this cos @XxSabrinaxX has already covered it.
Good luck trying to explain how a supposedly all loving God could inadvertently make his "precious creation" to sin, and then condemn them to pain and suffering.

MuttleyLaff:
Thank you, great minds think alike. I do that and same for others too. I do exactly same way you did and without even a squeal too about what I've done

MuttleyLaff:
I am sorry to be the one to burst your bubble and let you know that God did not influence you to come open this thread and be posting on it. You came here on your own accord.

It is true, you're correct to admit that in His omnipotence, God has the power. It is within His omnipotence that God blessed you with the power so you can take decisions and/or make your own decisions without being forced, dragged, pulled, yanked, tortured, cajoled, enticed, threatened by God.

You cant be blasé about it as much as you like or want to but the truth and fact of the matter is that God upon your crestion, upon your existence relinquished control, you have freewill, have the choice to respond or not respond to God. God has given everybody carte blanche, but the caveat is, look forward, to the day, when you'll be giving explanations for every thought, every word and every deed you've done

... but you are wrong for giving an affirmative answer because God did not force or coerced you to come comment on this thread. Everything you so far how done and will do on this thread is by your own volition. Notice I wrote your own volition and not God's

MuttleyLaff:
I really dont know how many alter egos you'll have before you stop

The subtle throw of shade was obvious, so I wrote: "Did God make you to start behaving or God prompted you to try dissing like a bitch?" Do you anywhere in that remark, read me calling you a bitch? Huh? Saying "... behaving or dissing like a bitch" is quite different to "... called a bitch"

MuttleyLaff:
Of course there are more but it doesnt mean you are any wiser in your understanding of the intricacies of hell

I asked you where did you learn that people are going to suffer forever in "hell" but instead of a valid, short, sweet and simple reply, you go graffitiing the thread with unnecessary bible verses? I know you are familiar with "hell" and you know about bible verses on "hell" but like I earlier said, you dont understand what is going down there with "hell". Bluntly put, you have no idea, no understanding of the intricacies of hell and that why you regurgitated that "suffering in "hell" forever" false bullshit.

I repeat, where did you learn that people are going to suffer forever in "hell"?

MuttleyLaff:
I laughed kikikiki ki. You really are desperate arent you

MuttleyLaff:
OK how about considering that it is all about breaking the sin loop, and that's why man was subjected to it and/or exposed to it

MuttleyLaff:
Why should He stop them?
Isnt God consistent, has He stopped you from posting here, what He already knows are your false bullshits about Him?
So it is God's integrity, righteousness, justness, fairness, love etcetera that is now being questioned, huh?

Two trees were placed side by side each other in the centre of the garden, one symbolised death, misery, the good, the bad and the ugly, the other tree symbolised life and blissfulness. Though it was emphatically messaged that eating off one of the trees spells death, even the naming of the tree, its name is a dead giveaway of what eating off its fruit entails. God, no doubt, aside the warning not to eat, gave adequate telltale marks or signs

MuttleyLaff:
Whats with you asking how to justify this huh?
Is this a fair question to ask or sought, especially when you are not in full possession of all the facts?
You set up a kangaroo court trying to convict God, on a frivolous lawsuit huh?

XxSabrinaxX:


Come on, muttley . You're supposed to be smarter than this. Its not a matter of consistency and you know that very well. He knew the implications of Adam eating the fruit. Being the all loving, merciful god he is, he could have easily found a way to salvage the situation without subjecting mankind through all this torture. I'm beginning to question your knowledge on this subject, muttley.

XxSabrinaxX:

How does it make any sense to punish a man for crime you not only knew will happen, but you could easily stop and spare everyone the pain of the result?

budaatum:

But one still must ask why not spare the pain to start with!

XxSabrinaxX:
No, i didn't. If an omnipotent, omniscient creator god truly existed, and he was at the helm of affairs from the very beginning, then all my actions and choices were already written out long before I even came into existence. It beats me how you've still not understood this. It is impossible to "make your own decisions" in a universe where every event has been predetermined by a creator. Dancing around this all day doesn't make it less of a fact than it already is.
Omniscience and Freewill are mutually exclusive concepts and they constantly contradict each other. They always do. However, if you're still uncomfortable with this, you can start by explaining to me how they're both compatible with each other cos that's the only way you'll change my mind.

XxSabrinaxX:
I don't get why you're so emotional about that comment. I never intended it as an insult, at least that's not what i had in mind. Going back and forth on this all day is just petty and is helping neither of us.

XxSabrinaxX:
When you saw me quoting those verses, wasn't it so obvious that my answer to that question was the bible? Come on, now. Your common sense surely should have made that known to you.

XxSabrinaxX:
That was so cringe, with all due respect I really hope you don't talk like that in public lol

XxSabrinaxX:
Did you just write that? LOL! What's the damn point, lol?

XxSabrinaxX:
Surely an omnibenevolent god won't subject mankind to such pain and suffering in the first place. This "grand scheme" logic of yours still fails ultimately because God himself INITIATED the loop! What was God trying to prove? Sin would not have come into existence if Adam and Eve hadn't eaten from the tree. You're doing nothing but proving my point that God is a malevolent manipulator and not a loving god.

XxSabrinaxX:
Come on, muttley . You're supposed to be smarter than this. Its not a matter of consistency and you know that very well. He knew the implications of Adam eating the fruit. Being the all loving, merciful god he is, he could have easily found a way to salvage the situation without subjecting mankind through all this torture. [s]I'm beginning to question your knowledge on this subject, muttley[/s].

XxSabrinaxX:
LoL, the facts are there for all those who aren't blinded by religious dogma to see. Your God is a scheming manipulator and that's all he is. How does it make any sense to punish a man for crime you not only knew will happen, but you could easily stop and spare everyone the pain of the result? You can't ignore this, muttley. Deep down you know it

MuttleyLaff:
SMH, I knew this is going to be a labour of love.

The actions were not already written out long before you even came into existence, they began happening the moment you popped into existence jumping on to scene or stage. Nothing, like as in, your choices have been predetermined. That is a fallacy!

What you refuse to appreciate is the realism of God's Omnipotence and Omniscience. God knows the end from the beginning. God knows what you'll be doing in the next passing 5 minutes. God is somewhat like a grandmaster who has analysed all the moves on the board and so has answers to countermove each and every move on the board. He responds to whatever the choice might be that's made.

For the mere fact that you dont claim you're omniscient, means you dont know all the facts, and it will be a miscarriage of justice, if you insist and be bent on adjudging God to be guilty, especially when you are not privy to the full and vitals facts of this matter.

You're on a wild goose chase. Happy hunting season. Look, there's a fox over there! Tally ho!!

MuttleyLaff:
It has nothing to do with being emotional at all. Maybe it's because I dont keep malice, maybe its because I say it as it is, maybe its because I find subtle digs, ribcage elbowed, nudge and prods distasteful. I also take exception to being lied about. I started with saying I give you greatest respect or something in that line, so stop kicking at the foot but keep your eye on the ball and kick that about the field, instead of your ocassional stamping on my foot

MuttleyLaff:
Unlike you, I dont do conjectures, I ask questions to establish the truth or correctness of my enquiries. You clearly said: "people are going to suffer forever in "hell"", so I asked where did you learn that from. Now you're trying to say from the bible. OK zero on to where in the bible you learned that from. What premise do you base this on? I have been fair, gave you the chance but all did was go graffitiing the thread with unnecessary bible verses

MuttleyLaff:
So you're not a big fan of the "kikikiki ki" sniggering? You prefer me doing your "lol" version?

MuttleyLaff:
I guess, it went swoosh, over your head

Didnt you read it in black and green?

XxSabrinaxX, God Himself did not INITIATE the loop but God up to a point had staved off the onset of the loop

MuttleyLaff:
Keep my foot out of it XxSabrinaxX, play the ball, kick the ball, head the ball, chest down the ball, dribble with the ball, bicycle kick the ball, do the JJ Okocha turn with the ball etcetera. Play clean and sexy football please

Now it's cost you the good opportunity of having a response to this your immediate above comment.

You'll soon see, you'll soon realise and blurt out saying: Wow, there is a method in the madness afterall. Please God forgive me for my impetuousness

XxSabrinaxX:
[s]Seriously, debating this issue with you could be likened to explaining social media to a 70 year old. I mean, come on lol [/s]
As an omniscient being, can even God have free will if he knows everything? How would it be different? God knows you will be eating ice cream, so how did you really choose it if it was always going to be the case?

XxSabrinaxX:
I would argue that free will exists because YOU personally did not know the choice in advance. You might be a person who likes ice cream, but no one is forcing it down your throat. You at least have a choice when to eat it, or if you want to eat it at all. But if you knew for a fact that ice cream would be forced down your throat at a specific time, would it be a choice to eat that ice cream? No. That is God, being forced to do what he knew he would do. He is trapped by the knowledge of future events and an inability to prove that knowledge false. Freewill can never exist in this case, the contradiction here can not be denied
If God knows everything then the choices are all already made, or just don't exist. Omniscient God can never gain new knowledge. I can see how this could be an uncomfortable idea to people, it makes God seem like a very static and not active. But that's just how it is.

XxSabrinaxX:
You're just taking us round in circles, and its not benefitting any of us.
[s]If you need some more salt for your salt, let me know honey [/s]

XxSabrinaxX:
Is this boy joking? You asked me where I got the idea of hell being eternal from and I showed you multiple examples from the bible. How are you still asking me this question lol?
[s]Honestly, If you were any dumber, someone would have to water you twice a week [/s]

XxSabrinaxX:
[s]Honestly, yes. At least "lol" isn't as crude and inferior as your version.

Try reading this part more than 10 times to yourself, and let me know IF or WHEN it makes sense

Muttley, I don't care who you are, and if you're reading this I still don't care.
You've gone on for multiple posts saying nothing of meaningful value, from here on i advise you to remain silent because whatever you say will probably be stupid anyway. Don't test me cause you might end up having nightmares of this thread
You've been warned[/s]

MuttleyLaff:
You still dont get it do you. God doesnt make choices for anyone God has seen all the choices you made. God sees in to the future, what you call being omniscient and omnipresent. You take your decisions and make your choices. God never permits anything to happen against your will (i.e. your freewill is paramount)

MuttleyLaff:
There is no new knowledge for the Omniscient God to know about

If God knows everything then the choices are all already made, or just don't exist. Omniscient God can never gain new knowledge.

MuttleyLaff:
Would a hop on a merry-go-round do you nicely?

MuttleyLaff:
Well you said and wrote: "people are going to suffer forever in "hell" How do you mean "suffer forever"?

MuttleyLaff:
Grown arse man like you behaving like this. SMH.
So this is your New Year's resolution, what a way to start a brand New Year and your daughter could be reading all this

XxSabrinaxX:

E pain am die
It really sad and painful. Ordinary people live and learn. Muttley, you just live. Seriously, your god wasted a good asshole when he put a teeth in your mouth

budaatum:
Simply not pointing it out might have made them less curious about it. Planting it where they couldn't see it might have made it less obvious. Making it a very tall tree might have made it's fruit unreachable. Making the fruit unedible is also an option along with creating Adam and Eve to go blind when looking in the general direction of said tree. Lots of options for a benevolent knowitall god, and not your God muttley, who the more you defend it the more it comes across as a "malevolent manipulator and not a loving god" at all!

XxSabrinaxX:

[img]https://media1./images/2445dc0fb709544510865eef6a80cc45/tenor.gif[/img]
Ok lol..... I'm going to go over this for the LAST TIME!
As God, omnipotent and omniscient as he is, was choosing the details (physics/chemistry/etc/etc) of the universe, he saw exactly how each would cause the universe to play out. If he couldn't see that, he lacked omniscience. As such, when he chose the details he did, he effectively chose that exact universe to play out. Because all of our "free will" decisions are at least partially affected by external influences, his choice of details could have resulted in every logically possible combination/permutation of "free will" decisions that he could have possibly wanted. By choosing the specific set of details that he chose, he effectively chose the specific universe we have right now, which includes every single occurrence down to all of our "free will" decisions and the spin of every electron (and at even greater detail than that).

In other words, even though it was arguably my "free will" decision to eat a squirrel sandwich for lunch today, god had the power to design the details of the universe such that I would've chosen a ham sandwich instead. Or he could've designed the details such that I would've chosen a unicorn sandwich. Or ANYTHING he wanted to the extent you claim he was omnipotent and omniscient at the time of creation. That means my decision to eat a squirrel for lunch was part of his master plan from the point of creation.

There. I'm done with that. You can argue all day but it doesn't change the fact that OMNISCIENCE IS NOT COMPATIBLE WITH FREE WILL!




[img]https://media./images/5fa8ba9593451a400013f2c343dfaed5/tenor.gif[/img]
I don't understand, this is one of the major points i've been driving at for the past 1 hour. In fact, i literally said it in my last post.

You've literally run out of things to say and now you're even arguing for me against yourself


[img]https://media./images/e3544b8117d3ecbb0cb8751f1ce0ff71/tenor.gif[/img]
I'm not even joking, elementary school children are more creative than that. There isn't enough Oxycontin in the world to numb the pain of talking to a dumbass like you


Cc. budaatum, please explain to this boy that i've answered his question ages ago. Why does he want to punish me like this? Muttley, what do you want me to do for you? I can only explain to you but i can't understand it for you.

Omnipresent:
You all disturbing my mention with your omnipresent religious stuff

Omnipresent:
You all disturbing my mention with your omnipresent religious stuff

MuttleyLaff:

budaatum, hypothetically speaking, if the shoe were on the other foot, and it is you who happens to be Adam, what would you do and/or have done when God warned you about the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, telling you, not to eat from eat and that if you do you will die?

budaatum:

You know me muttley, I just love testing things for myself. Soon as God turned its back, I'm having me some of that fruit, and I wouldn't be needing no serpent or Eve to tell me to. And when God starts telling me I'd work for my food and all and I didn't end up dying like was said I would, I'd be placing God under the Iiar column from thereon. About making me walk around naked!.

But all that wouldn't really have mattered since I'd have been kicked out of the Garden of Eden along with Satan long before that to be honest.

XxSabrinaxX:

budaatum, please explain to this boy that i've answered his question ages ago. Why does he want to punish me like this?