sgtponzihater1:


If I am the only one it would have been fine. With a family, I wonder

To survive in London comfortably you need two earner and at least one doing contracting with a good day rate ..... if you can get two earner as a couple both contracting and good day rate then life is sweeter

LagosismyHome:


To survive in London comfortably you need two earner and at least one doing contracting with a good day rate ..... if you can get two earner as a couple both contracting and good day rate then life is sweeter

Even this angle is about die in April next year sef

nihilistjnr:


Even this angle is about die in April next year sef

How boss?

sgtponzihater1:


How boss?

IR35 legislation is going to be enforced differently in the private sector from April 2020.

I can't go into the specifics because I don't know how much you know about contracting in the UK.

The tl dr version is this.

From next tax year, private sector companies hiring contractors are obliged to make judgement calls on whether the contractors are working inside or outside IR35.

Most contractors will by default be working inside ir35 as they will be under direct control of their clients. Direct control is deemed synonymous with employee status, and anybody in this category will be seen as eligible for PAYE income tax.

Most contractors trade under a ltd company, and as such can avoid paying full paye income tax via a number of legal mechanisms.

If you're a disguised employee today, that's none of your clients business. From April, your clients are liable.

nihilistjnr:


Even this angle is about die in April next year sef

Well for hustlers it will still continue but the take home will be less. For example in my industry a permanent person will probably take home max 80k with some sense of security and benefit. A contractors doing same job will take home easily 500 and above per day and i think both roles will still continue

The main difference is before ir35 there are some tricks to pay less tax on that 500. After ir35 that 500 will be tax to the max

So the person just has to weigh ... with 500 tax to max and no benefit. In some cases its still better than lets say 80k with benefit. In some cases it is not..... it then boils down to what the difference in pay between contracting and permanent within your industry. For jobs were difference is not much then permament for where it is contracting will continue

nihilistjnr:


IR35 legislation is going to be enforced differently in the private sector from April 2020.

I can't go into the specifics because I don't know how much you know about contracting in the UK.

The tl dr version is this.

From next tax year, private sector companies hiring contractors are obliged to make judgement calls on whether the contractors are working inside or outside IR35.

Most contractors will by default be working inside ir35 as they will be under direct control of their clients. Direct control is deemed synonymous with employee status, and anybody in this category will be seen as eligible for PAYE income tax.

Most contractors trade under a ltd company, and as such can avoid paying full paye income tax via a number of legal mechanisms.

If you're a disguised employee today, that's none of your clients business. From April, your clients are liable.

This will kill off a lot of my colleagues who locum full time, and I have seen them moaning about this for months. If fully implemented, they will be taxed as full time employees with zero benefits of being employed full time.

LagosismyHome:


Well for hustlers it will still continue but the take home will be less. For example in my industry a permanent person will probably take home max 80k with some sense of security and benefit. A contractors doing same job will take home easily 500 and above per day and i think both roles will still continue

The main difference is before ir35 there are some tricks to pay less tax on that 500. After ir35 that 500 will be tax to the max

So the person just has to weigh ... with 500 tax to max and no benefit. In some cases its still better than lets say 80k with benefit. In some cases it is not..... it then boils down to what the difference in pay between contracting and permanent within your industry. For jobs were difference is not much then permament for where it is contracting will continue

Well,

500 a day works out around maybe 6k a month after tax, assuming you invoice 20 days a month.

You probably won't hit that every month. Infact, I reckon you probably invoice around 100-110 days on a 6 month contract. Maybe double that on a 12 month contract...and that's assuming you don't go on many holidays.

The expensing element is gone now so if you have a long commute, or renting a place for work, that's out of your pocket.

All of a sudden, contracting isn't looking like an attractive proposition of you fall within IR35...and most will.

claremont:


This will kill off a lot of my colleagues who locum full time, and I have seen them moaning about this for months. If fully implemented, they will be taxed as full time employees with zero benefits of being employed full time.

Exactly this.

claremont:


This will kill off a lot of my colleagues who locum full time, and I have seen them moaning about this for months. If fully implemented, they will be taxed as full time employees with zero benefits of being employed full time.

How easily do one get to locum full time as first job in UK. And how easily can one cope initially

nihilistjnr:


Well,

500 a day works out around maybe 6k a month after tax, assuming you invoice 20 days a month.

You probably won't hit that every month. Infact, I reckon you probably invoice around 100-110 days on a 6 month contract. Maybe double that on a 12 month contract...and that's assuming you don't go on many holidays.

The expensing element is gone now so if you have a long commute, or renting a place for work, that's out of your pocket.

All of a sudden, contracting isn't looking like an attractive proposition of you fall within IR35...and most will.

Yeap using that example... there are 260 working days in a year and if a contractor takes 20 days off.. the monthly salary tax at max is 6k ..for 230 working days at 500

A permanent at 80k would be 4k5 ......plus sick leave, life insurance etc

so that 1k5 per month difference determines if it worth contracting or not . It depends on other factors.some industry that permanent salary can be 60k instead of 80k self

LagosismyHome:


Yeap using that example... there are 260 working days in a year and if a contractor takes 20 days off.. the monthly salary tax at max is 6k ..for 230 working days at 500

A permanent at 80k would be 4k5 ......plus sick leave, life insurance etc

so that 1k5 per month difference determines if it worth contracting or not . It depends on other factors.some industry that permanent salary can be 60k instead of 80k self

Most places give you around 26 days paid holiday as a permie.

That's your 1k5 right there.

And without the insecurity of having zero notice period.

claremont:


I thought you were already here and have been here. Since you are new, you can rent in London for a few months whilst building your credit score. At the same time you are renting, spend you days off exploring properties for sale in towns an hour commute from London. Do not be comfortable paying rent in London or else you will get sucked into the never-ending rat race of earning to pay rent and bills. Try to save up at least 10% deposit during your first year.

I would highly recommend Accord mortgages, they are very good and flexible for new job starters. All you need is your contract and proof of identity, and a 10% deposit. You are good as guaranteed of getting a mortgage from them. I just used them recently to buy a second property and I cannot recommend them enough.

can a student get a mortgage?

kaad:

can a student get a mortgage?

How much does the student earn? How much does the student have in savings?

Home student or international student?.....

nihilistjnr:


Well,

500 a day works out around maybe 6k a month after tax, assuming you invoice 20 days a month.

You probably won't hit that every month. Infact, I reckon you probably invoice around 100-110 days on a 6 month contract. Maybe double that on a 12 month contract...and that's assuming you don't go on many holidays.

The expensing element is gone now so if you have a long commute, or renting a place for work, that's out of your pocket.

All of a sudden, contracting isn't looking like an attractive proposition of you fall within IR35...and most will.

I was just calculating this with a colleague at work. If you have in-demand skills, all you have to do is increase your rate. If not, go permie.

But, I don't see it working as it has not exclusively worked within public sector. Some highly skilled specialists are still raking it in.

All you have to prove is to pass the major test of IR35 legislation: Mutuality of obligation, right of substitution, direction and control.

sgtponzihater1:


How would I survive North London. The cost of accommodation in the zone I am going states 1200 minimum on Zoopla. That nearly half my expected pay

Trust me you will survive, only that you will live like a pauper and places like aldi and primark will look luxurious to you.

wonlasewonimi:


Trust me you will survive, only that you will live like a pauper and places like aldi and primark will look luxurious to you.

You forget to add, Charity shops would be like Harrods.....

wonlasewonimi:


I was just calculating this with a colleague at work. If you have in-demand skills, all you have to do is increase your rate. If not, go permie.j

But, I don't see it working as it has not exclusively worked within public sector. Some highly skilled specialists are still raking it in.

All you have to prove is to pass the major test of IR35 legislation: Mutuality of obligation, right of substitution, direction and control.

The only way to truly pass those tests is to work as a consultant

The average bum on sear contractor cannot exercise right to substitute, or insist he wants to work from home 4 days a week.

Rates will not go up, and most clients will take the most risk averse option by blanket declaring all their contractors as within ir35.

i personally know that RBS and HSBC have sent memos to their contractors since last year about how they will all be within ir35 from next year.

Barclays I believe have pulled up retain lists, for contractors they want to try and turn permie.

Contracting as we knew it, is gone bruv.

nihilistjnr:


The only way to truly pass those tests is to work as a consultant

The average bum on sear contractor cannot exercise right to substitute, or insist he wants to work from home 4 days a week.

Rates will not go up, and most clients will take the most risk averse option by blanket declaring all their contractors as within ir35.

i personally know that RBS and HSBC have sent memos to their contractors since last year about how they will all be within ir35 from next year.

Barclays I believe have pulled up retain lists, for contractors they want to try and turn permie.

Contracting as we knew it, is gone bruv.

Contracting is not totally gone.. This will separate pseudo contractors from the real Gs. All the pmos and BAs will struggle while the likes of solution architects and enterprise architects will be milking it. Do you think companies will not start paying the top dollar to get the best of the best devops engineers?
It's just that we contractors are spoilt... Any role getting you approx 10k you should be fine. The legislation is just going to create mullah for umbrella companies.

wonlasewonimi:


Contracting is not totally gone.. This will separate pseudo contractors from the real Gs. All the pmos and BAs will struggle while the likes of solution architects and enterprise architects will be milking it. Do you think companies will not start paying the top dollar to get the best of the best devops engineers?
It's just that we contractors are spoilt... Any role getting you approx 10k you should be fine. The legislation is just going to create mullah for umbrella companies.

SAs at one of the places where I worked before were firmly under client control, so would have failed ways of working test.

Rates are not going up in my opinion....as long as client demand for bum on seat contractors remains.

Proof of this can be seen in public sector. NHS, DWP rates have been stagnant for years

Also, I'm not convinced devops has a long shelf life. I was looking at sliding into that angle at one point, but the sheer levels of automation, and the usual Indian competition undercutting rates, made it a no go for me.

I'm calling it now, Devops is a fad and will be dead(as a cash cow) before 2022. Already, I can see devops adverts with dayrates of £350, with skill requirements longer than the 10 commandments.

nihilistjnr:


SAs at one of the places where I worked before were firmly under client control, so would have failed ways of working test.

Rates are not going up in my opinion....as long as client demand for bum on seat contractors remains.

Proof of this can be seen in public sector. NHS, DWP rates have been stagnant for years

Also, I'm not convinced devops has a long shelf life. I was looking at sliding into that angle at one point, but the sheer levels of automation, and the usual Indian competition undercutting rates, made it a no go for me.

I'm calling it now, Devops is a fad and will be dead(as a cash cow) before 2022. Already, I can see devops adverts with dayrates of £350, with skill requirements longer than the 10 commandments.

There are a lot of roles that companies struggle to fill.... once you are in a recuritment role you realise it not that easy to find resource .

Meaning it not the client who dictate what the rate would be but its the market that will dictate it. I believe Rate will go up a lot in private sector once ir35 comes , companies will continue to use contractors as its a more disposable assets than permanent .... Time will tell . I notice companies are preparing to beat ir35. Contracts are now been worded differently to beat it

nihilistjnr:


SAs at one of the places where I worked before were firmly under client control, so would have failed ways of working test.

Rates are not going up in my opinion....as long as client demand for bum on seat contractors remains.

Proof of this can be seen in public sector. NHS, DWP rates have been stagnant for years

Also, I'm not convinced devops has a long shelf life. I was looking at sliding into that angle at one point, but the sheer levels of automation, and the usual Indian competition undercutting rates, made it a no go for me.

I'm calling it now, Devops is a fad and will be dead(as a cash cow) before 2022. Already, I can see devops adverts with dayrates of £350, with skill requirements longer than the 10 commandments.

I agree the bobs from techmahindra are messing up the rates but that doesn't take anything away from the fact that it is going to hot for about 10 more years until the bubble bursts.

My mate work for dwp as a security architect and was assessed out of ir35. That's why I said this will separate the wheat from the chaff.

Guys in hsbc and all are already crying... We shall see how this is going to pan out. I have always been a prudent contractor anyway plus my area of specialisation needs not be joked with so as not to see the wrath of ico

LagosismyHome:


There are a lot of roles that companies struggle to fill.... once you are in a recuritment role you realise it not that easy to find resource .

Meaning it not the client who dictate what the rate would be but its the market that will dictate it. I believe Rate will go up a lot in private sector once ir35 comes , companies will continue to use contractors as its a more disposable assets than permanent .... Time will tell . I notice companies are preparing to beat ir35. Contracts are now been worded differently to beat it

Its not the contract wording that protects you from HMRC.

Most contracts I've had have been IR35 friendly, with clauses entreching ROS, MOO, and a lack of direct control.

Only 2 of my contracts have actually been outside IR35 in practice, and I've been doing this for a while.

HMRC go straight to the client and ask them -

1. Can this person do whatever he wants?
2. Can he send in a substitute in practice?
3. Is he obliged to take work from you?

From a contract perspective, the contractor is probably better off agreeing a statement of work with the client.

But what deliverables does a pmo, traditional ba, or PM put on such a document? You have to be creative to use this method, and a lot of clients won't agree

Finally, I promise you, rates are NOT going up. Take that to the bank.

The legislation that is coming to private sector next year is already 3 years old in the public sector, and if anything, rates dey drop for that side.

You guys should just be invoicing till like Feb next year, and hopefully parachute into a solid paying permie role. A lot of contractors will be doing the same, and I'm predicting a wage crash for permies sef as more mercenaries make the jump.

wonlasewonimi:


I agree the bobs from techmahindra are messing up the rates but that doesn't take anything away from the fact that it is going to hot for about 10 more years until the bubble bursts.

My mate work for dwp as a security architect and was assessed out of ir35. That's why I said this will separate the wheat from the chaff.

Guys in hsbc and all are already crying... We shall see how this is going to pan out. I have always been a prudent contractor anyway plus my area of specialisation needs not be joked with so as not to see the wrath of ico

I have a guy in that DWP in the North West as a senior devops guy, and those guys dey use ogboju politics to sort out their own.

The guy is taking 650 outside, and his fellow mates doing the same job are classed inside on a bit less.

So caveat emptor.

Ani, RBS guys in Manchester were told 4 months ago that they were now all employees of Alexander Mann

Brother invoice your invoice but prepare for the worst.

Na consultancy parole sure pass now

nihilistjnr:


I have a guy in that DWP in the North West as a senior devops guy, and those guys dey use ogboju politics to sort out their own.

The guy is taking 650 outside, and his fellow mates doing the same job are classed inside on a bit less.

So caveat emptor.

Ani, RBS guys in Manchester were told 4 months ago that they were now all employees of Alexander Mann

Brother invoice your invoice but prepare for the worst.

Na consultancy parole sure pass now

We shall see o..

Hi All,

Greetings!!! Always good to be here.

Please house I need your advise. I am a Marketing professional, got transferred here to deliver a project and I intend to make the most of my stay whilst here by learning new skills in the marketing profession.

Any ideas of the latest skill in demand globally or futuristic which i can latch onto to help boost my portfolio? All response are appreiated.


Regards

nihilistjnr:


I have a guy in that DWP in the North West as a senior devops guy, and those guys dey use ogboju politics to sort out their own.

The guy is taking 650 outside, and his fellow mates doing the same job are classed inside on a bit less.

So caveat emptor.

Ani, RBS guys in Manchester were told 4 months ago that they were now all employees of Alexander Mann

Brother invoice your invoice but prepare for the worst.

Na consultancy parole sure pass now

Come what are these skills/professions that command these rates. Some of us are stuck on £400. Care tk share so that I can upskill? I am looking at changing careers, currently an engineer and I seem to have lost interest, looking at analytics or PM.

dustydee:

Come what are these skills/professions that command these rates. Some of us are stuck on £400. Care tk share so that I can upskill? I am looking at changing careers, currently an engineer and I seem to have lost interest, looking at analytics or PM.

What I've found is that the higher rates tend to be reserved either for a particular niche, or man-know-man.

For example, standard BA day rate is 350/400. Specific sector experience on top of your base skills may push you into 450/500... around 650/700 in insurance and Investment Banking with regulatory experience.

Man-Know-Man or Consultancy kickback may elevate you 800

But you're doing the same shït as the brother down the road.

As an engineer, I can't tell you what's hot in your field. You should be keeping tabs on trends, and trying to upskill yourself

Also being 'stuck' on £9600 gross monthly income is a great place to be stuck at, bros. Please be mindful and grateful of that fact.

nihilistjnr:


What I've found is that the higher rates tend to be reserved either for a particular niche, or man-know-man.

For example, standard BA day rate is 350/400. Specific sector experience on top of your base skills may push you into 450/500... around 650/700 in insurance and Investment Banking with regulatory experience.

Man-Know-Man or Consultancy kickback may elevate you 800

But you're doing the same shït as the brother down the road.

As an engineer, I can't tell you what's hot in your field. You should be keeping tabs on trends, and trying to upskill yourself

Also being 'stuck' on £9600 gross monthly income is a great place to be stuck at, bros. Please be mindful and grateful of that fact.

Thank you. I am grateful but not enjoying it. At the moment, I will consider a permie of paying 60k plus benefits if the job is right.
I have considered moving to data science or data analytics but not sure of the right training to go for. Consulting firms will be great but no luck so far. Not living near London has somewhat limited my options. I will keep developing myself.

dustydee:

Thank you. I am grateful but not enjoying it. At the moment, I will consider a permie of paying 60k plus benefits if the job is right.
I have considered moving to data science or data analytics but not sure of the right training to go for. Consulting firms will be great but no luck so far. Not living near London has somewhat limited my options. I will keep developing myself.

There's a place in Southampton called pairview that do training in data science, but their sales pitch suggests that they want to get their graduates in jobs around the 35-45k mark.

if you're an IT engineer on 400, then you should potentially be looking for 'senior' permanent roles in your field, maybe even managerial roles.

Infrastructure support roles don't really pay that well these days, so your day rate suggests that you're a highly skilled guy....so I'm a bit surprised you're considering starting again in a different field

nihilistjnr:


There's a place in Southampton called pairview that do training in data science, but their sales pitch suggests that they want to get their graduates in jobs around the 35-45k mark.

if you're an IT engineer on 400, then you should potentially be looking for 'senior' permanent roles in your field, maybe even managerial roles.

Infrastructure support roles don't really pay that well these days, so your day rate suggests that you're a highly skilled guy....so I'm a bit surprised you're considering starting again in a different field

It's a comms role in core engineering (energy). Unfortunately the market is no longer what it used to be and not many roles available. Also I see it as "suffer head" especially when I see other non technical personnel milking it.
I have been in contact with pairview but I wasn't convinced after reading reviews. I may just bite the bullet and go with Cambridge spark or general assembly.

nihilistjnr:


There's a place in Southampton called pairview that do training in data science, but their sales pitch suggests that they want to get their graduates in jobs around the 35-45k mark.

if you're an IT engineer on 400, then you should potentially be looking for 'senior' permanent roles in your field, maybe even managerial roles.

Infrastructure support roles don't really pay that well these days, so your day rate suggests that you're a highly skilled guy....so I'm a bit surprised you're considering starting again in a different field

Any idea how big digital marketing or project management is in this part of town?

dustydee:


It's a comms role in core engineering (energy). Unfortunately the market is no longer what it used to be and not many roles available. Also I see it as "suffer head" especially when I see other non technical personnel milking it.
I have been in contact with pairview but I wasn't convinced after reading reviews. I may just bite the bullet and go with Cambridge spark or general assembly.

pairview are not serious , they want to charge £9k and above or what was the silly price i was told for a 35 k job ........