₦airaland Forum

emaculate99:
International companies do not accept applications from HND and BSc placed on the same platform out of pity but they do it for the purpose of merit. They deal with merit and not certificates. There are a lot of skilled individuals in polytechnics that can compete favourably with university graduates and these is known by them.

"After my HND studies in 1998, I worked with the International Institute of Tropical Agriculture (IITA) Ibadan, as a Research Assistant. During the interview for that position, several BSc graduate applicants from ‘well-known’ universities such as UI, UniLag, OAU-Ile Ife, among others, were interviewed as well, but the big university names associated with those individuals did not save them from relegation, as they say in football parlance. What I am emphasising here is that it is the intellectual quality of the individual, not the institution attended, that often matters. If you know IITA, then you will agree with me that when it comes to staff recruitment, personal merit is the watchword, not merely possessing a HND or BSc degree."


This is an excerpt from a writer who graduated of Polytechnic of Ibadan. This will prove to you that most international companies are interested in your intellectual quality. So they are not interested in your certificate but personal merit.

http://www.gamji.com/article5000/news5935.htm

If companies are really interested in them and both are accepted in recruitment. Why the debate?? What are you then fighting for?

OAUTemitayo:
Out of pity?
Do you think companies like Nestle, Cadbury and other multinationals use nepotism, partiality and sentimentality to pick and choose their employees? Have you ever wondered why they keep making profits year on year out?
It's because they follow laid down standards in their employment processes which HND holders have been known to pass easily like their BSC counterparts.

Is it because most banks don't employ HND holders, that they don't make enough profits? I don't know the relationship of employing HND holders and you making profit in your company.

OAUTemitayo:
It is not. You are generalising a problem peculiar to your own school.

My school is one of the best polytechnic in Nigeria. This kept me wondering what's obtainable in other lower polytechnics.

emaculate99:
You claim it is formalities? That means every advertisement issues by Polytechnics are not to be followed. That means they are players that are playing the general public or an organisation that has no committee that recruit individuals. Or that the formalities will not be strictly followed. Ok! Fine, it is formalities, it is not to be followed, can a primary two student can apply for the position of a lecturer and be appointed?

Common, formalities are meant to be followed and are requirements that will be strictly followed to the core.

Formalities.... Yes formalities.
That's why employers don't take their graduates seriously.

OAUTemitayo:
Are you saying international companies like Nestle don't know what they are doing when they accept applications from both HND and BSC holders?

They do that out of pity...

OAUTemitayo:
Am trying to tell you that people without PhDs also lecture in the university.
That they take orders from above does not matter.
That is normal in any formal institution.

Check that link you will see where they said M. SC holders should apply for chief lecturer. The highest hierarchy in polytechnics ranking. Polytechnics education is really embarrassing....

emaculate99:
You are wrong!
if there is no assistant lecturers in polytechnics, will there be vacancy for assistant lecturers?

http://www.2015jobsnigeria.com/auchi-polytechnic-academic-non-academic-staff-jobs-vacancies-in-nigeria-2013/

Those vacancy are for formalities. What they do actually is to handle courses and are not even monitored by any senior lecturers as it is done in the Universities.

OAUTemitayo:
Sure. If the content is below par, Reputable organisations like KPMG and Nestle food won't place adverts in newspapers requesting for either BSC holders or HND holders for same positions.

It's not true. They should have been regulated by same body... Just like NUC is regulating B. Tech and B. SC.

OAUTemitayo:
You are wrong. There are several lecturers who lecture without PhD in Universities.
You only need a master's degree to lecture. Just that without PhD you will be stagnant as an assistant lecturer

The assistant lecturer you mentioned aborted your point. You should know assistants are guided and they take orders from someone maybe professors or Ph. D holders. There is nothing like assistant lecturer in the polytechnics

OAUTemitayo:
which agricultural knowledge is Banking and finance students empowered with in an agricultural university?

Are you saying the polytechnic is just a name that the content is same as in the University? Let's be more rational

xynerise:
Joejonah



Do you have facts to back this assertion?

My aunt lectures in one of the Federal Polytechnics in Nigeria and she is a PH.D Holder.

Ask your aunt how many professors are in their polytechnic. And be kind to also ask he how many classes she lecture? We know what we are facing here in the polytechnic. Ph. D holders in our school are worshipped.

emaculate99:
Only Ph.D holders are allowed to lecture but i have many lecturers who are not Ph.D holders, therefore, your statement is incorrect.

Be it graduate assistant or not, I dont have anything differentiate in as much as the set of people are qualified to lecture university students, they are qualified to lecture university students as against your position that only Ph.D holders can lecture in university.

You are not current with the trend of University education in Nigeria. It's the current minimum requirements to lecture in the University.

And are you saying there is no difference between B. SC and Ph. D?

OAUTemitayo:
Because law is not studied studied in Nigerian polytechnics does not mean Nigerian university graduates are better than them.
Polytechnics were established solely for the provision of technical manpower. That they also study business administration is not a point. Federal University of Agriculture Abeokuta was established solely for agricultural purpose yet it is admitting students to study Banking and finance today. Loss of sense of purpose is a Nigerian problem and not peculiar to polytechnics alone.

Which technical manpower is business administration students in polytechnics equipped with?

emaculate99:
I have many lecturers that are not Ph.D holders. If what you said is true, then that means the first class graduates (without Ph. D) that are always retained in universities to lecture students are not lecturers but probably cleaners or librarians or anything other than lecturers.

I thought you knew the difference between graduate assistant and lecturers. Those first class are genius in making, despite this they are not allowed to lecture 300 level students and above. Come to the polytechnic and see your fellow students (course Mate) been assigned course to lecture you by the lecturers

OAUTemitayo:
Isn't Bill Gate better than the teachers who taught him mathematics and physics today?
You can actually be greater than your teacher.

He is not greater than lecturers that taught him mathematics and physics. In short form he don't even know half of what those lecturers knew. All he did was to apply the knowledge in different ways not as he was guided by those teachers. That is why he failed in school but successful outside school.

OAUTemitayo:
You are wrong sir. While IT is a prerequisite for getting your HND certificate, internship is not a prerequisite for getting your Medicine degree. Internship is just a prerequisite for accreditation by the Nigerian medical and dental council to enable you practice

Please sir why is medicine and law not studied in the polytechnic?? Don't tell me they are not technically oriented courses.... Because business administration is not too.

emaculate99:
No! Students ignored polytechnics not because of the quality of education but as a result of the discrimination they will face in future in terms of employment. Let the BSc and HND degrees be equal, then you will see how people will rush to polytechnic. And in real sense, this will reduce the pressure mount on universities for admission and frustration students will have to go through. Thereby limiting suicide thought or even suicide as a result of frustration of getting university admission.

It's totally untrue.
Equate SSCE with B. Sc and check if anybody will border about attending University again.

The two institutions are basically taught in different in debth of their courses. The polytechnic is shallow....

OAUTemitayo:
You are wrong on the notion that no student can rise above the knowledge of his teacher. Bill gates have proved it that somebody who dropped out of school as a result of not being able to meet the examination demands set by his teacher can still be better than his teacher in same field.

We don't argue with fallacies. Bill gate have to leave the four walls of education to think outside what his lecturers are feeding him with the same is applicable to seun.

The dichotomy between bachelor degree (B.Sc) and higher national diploma (HND) has always leave us with bitter emotions, pity and sympathy. This had constantly clouded our sense of judgement that we no longer see through the transparent glasses of reality. The question remains should duck now be classified with fishes because it can swim?

On this note, I register my greetings to the owner of this educative forum, Mr seun osewa, our unbaised judges, super moderators and moderators, co-debaters, and all nairalanders reading from home.

I am joejonah by moniker the first representative of Auchi polytechnic auchi. I wrote to register my stance that “equating B. Sc with HND: a panacea to Technological Advancement and innovative ideas”. I stand vehemently against the motion with the following reasons.

It is imperative to acquit ourselves with the unfamiliar terms in the topic of discuss. B. Sc: is an acronym for bachelor degree in science, it has its equivalent as B. A, B. Ed, Offered to art courses and education courses respectively. They are seen as undergraduate degree awarded for completed courses that generally last 3-5 years.
HND: An acronym for higher national diploma describes a semi-vocational / semi-proffesional qualifications, which can be used to gain entry into universities at an advanced level and is considered equivalent to the second year of a three years University degree courses. In Scotland, it is quite common for those who have achieved a HND to add to their qualification by progressing to other levels such as professional qualification or degree (B.Sc).
Panace: this is seen as something that will solve all problems (Oxford dictionary). Or something that will make everything about a situation better (Merriam Webster dictionary).

It is very important that we look out for the differences and similarities between BSC and HND, both in quality and purpose before thinking of equating them. In Nigeria, B.Sc and it's equivalent are awarded by the University only and these universities are accredited, monitored and assessed by National University commission (NUC). While HND on the other hand are awarded by the polytechnic only and these polytechnics are monitored, accredited, and assessed by National Board of technical education (NBTE). These two bodies are guided by different rules. They offer both the content of the courses, it's debth, area to be covered and qualifications of lecturers to handle these courses and this assessment are widely different from the one offered by (NBTE) offering assessment to the polytechnic because they act independently. With this one can deduce that an electrical engineering graduate from the University is different from those in the polytechnic as the former is exposed to a wider coverage of his field. That is to say the former was taught all that the later knew, and we can't say it's vice versa because NBTE is restricted by law not to offer equivalent courses NUC will accredited for the universities.


It is a popular saying that “no education can rise above the quality of its teachers”. Now taking the banner to the quality and quantity of lecturers found in both institutions. It is a known fact that it has been established that the minimum requirements for someone to qualify to lecture bsc undergraduate is a Ph.D, and this is the highest qualification found in the polytechnic and most of the lecturer with this degree in the polytechnic are considered as administrative officers and they hardly lecture. So the people training our HND holders are their colleagues(HND holders), B. SC, MSc holders and we can't undermine the place of time based experience, exposure, research work which the professors in the University has to the unqualified teaching staff found in the polytechnic.

On how students are absorbed into B. Sc and HND program a great difference is also observed. In the University the introduction of post- UME Screening has effectively put paid to issue of admission racketting and reduced incidence of examination malpractice and cultism. There is evidence that show that products of post UME have shown and demonstrated remarkable commitment in their studies than pre-post UME students. It should be noted that while universities are taking these steps, polytechnic are lagging behind, offering mass-admission to low quality reluctant, unpersistent students who can't take the pain of scoring 200 aggregate in JAMB, only for them to be churned out the same way they were absorbed.


From the above analysis it could be seen that the difference between HND and B.Sc are so wide that if attempt are made to join both, educational system in Nigeria will crash. Students will no longer take jamb seriously, Greater population of our youths will now be trained by low quality teachers with ill facilities, in tertiary education as many will resort to polytechnic education because of its mode of entry, and it's less rigorous process of training. Theoretical thinking and vast exposure which lead to technological advancement and great innovative ideas will be lacking in them.

Conclusively, the need for holistic re-orientation, re-engineering, and re-branding of the polytechnic education cannot be overemphasized. The graduates here are not only derailed, but are also described as lacking in quality, low in perception and unfit in skills. Employers complain that they are poorly prepared for work. In many cases, employers compensate for this by employing them with less pay or even leave them out in recruitment process in worst cases. Considering this experiences and the number of years that students spend in this institutions to be poorly cooked, leave people to argue that all polytechnic be upgraded to B. Tech. On this note I quickly add that the topic and truth should be upgrading HND to B. Tech: a panacea to Technological development and innovative ideas. Thanks for reading through.

Reference
Merriam Webster dictionary.

Oxford dictionary (7th edition).

luxanne:
Nice response.



The dates I mentioned on the post are free, thought it appropriate to have them filled up rather than having to wait 3 weeks before holding another debate.

6th is okay.

luxanne:
AUCHI POLYTECHNIC (Oppose) VS OBAFEMI AWOLOWO UNIVERSITY (Support)



6th March 2016
7pm


Equating HND with BSC: A panacea to Technological Advancement/ Innovative ideas.



OAUTemitayo
Emaculate99
Ehisdan
Joejonah

---

Hi guys,

How about we bring your date forward, say 29th February, next week Sunday or March 5th?

Cc. Fynestboi

Any of the date is okay for auchi polytechnic.

Fynestboi:
Don't you know that if your opponent team Do not show up, it presupposes that such match didn't hold, we do ask you to post your argument to prevent discouragement.... So?

Can we say same for futminna and delsu? Why were they scored?

Is the scores in relation to that of the opponents? I thought those ones above are individual performance? What is worth doing is worth doing well....

sammyscholar:
Overall score shouldn't be the criteria for judging the best essays. I guess you know what I'm saying, finestboi. You look at what our presentations garnered. I only had low scores in my rebuttals which I still find shocking. Essay wise, you and I know whose essays is the best in the intellectual fiasco between TPI and OAU. That said, I will nominate Abuklaw's essay anytime, any day for the best essay.

I'm surprised you kept quiet to the daylight robbery.
Even in tribunals, the average of the judges opinions stand sure, in that case, no one judge will bring you down BECAUSE OF PERSONAL REASONS.

I'm still observing.....

Honestly I'm tired of all these abnormalities.
Why this list even when some debaters and their school were not judged??

Fynestboi:
@Joejonah I await your apology for such illogical, baseless, and hasty conclusion, what you posted up there is against the ethics of this debate........

Sorry about that.
I thought the opinion of two judges should weight more than one.

Everyone should come and check this out... I believe so much in honesty and transparency

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I'm part of this debate and I stand my ground and voice out that this result is totally unacceptable.

These are my reasons, and I'm gonna follow it up to the root...

We have 3 panel of judges that gave out scores. 2 spoke in favour of ibadan polytechnic and they sent their scores at the time of requests. The last judge waited for the other results to be posted hiding under the pretense of network, only to come up with an inflating score to counter the results already posted! This is very unhealthy and diabolical.

Either this debate is subject to other judges or the opinion of 2 judges stand sure. I have never seen one judge win two judges.

Let's this be honesty looked into. Very poor for the health of this debate.

OAUTemitayo

Considering the cost of living in this country and what #5000 can buy you in the market. Do you honestly think this will make any difference? How do you expect an unemployed youth to save #5000 monthly stipend to start up business? If you are a manager will you go about spreading money to your staffs, without proper channel and aim.?

I think it's totally unrealistic and a wasteful journey you want Nigerian government to embark.

Enosa1:
This is embarrassing and shameful on the part of the UNIBEN representatives. Is it that they were not well informed or simply afraid of defeat. Anything worth doing is worth doing well. I recommend that UNIBEN be ban from participating in such debate again.
Anyway,congrat guys @joejonah and co.

Thanks man.

Cc:ehisdan

luvprince4real:
I consider this an insult. Hw can u pair the almighty Uniben with a school like Auchi poly? Uniben should be debating with a school like Sheffield Hallam University in d UK and the likes, not schools like Auchi poly and it's like.





Qoute me and have a sleepless Night for 3 days.

And auchi polytechnic won uniben without stress.
We both were informed about the debate over a month ago only for them to back out without concrete reason.

We aren't afraid of any school....
You should have represented them

No judges, no contestant, not open to the public... It's very dry. I think we should develop ways of eliminating teams that wouldn't be present.

The concept of human rights has become a global issue. The principles that all men and women are created equal has become the foundation of all Democratic societies. It has been observed that opinions of people based on race, personal belief or societal standing form the structure of prejudice and bigotry. This has made the attainment of equal rights to remain a constant struggle -Prof. Yusuf A. I.

On this note, I humbly Accord my pleasantries to the owner of this forum, Mr seun osewa, honorable unbiased judges, organisers of this intellectual combat, supermoderators, moderators, well-learned opponents, ever supporting Nigerian students and all niaralanders viewing.

I am joejonah by moniker, the first representative of auchi polytechnic, auchi. I am here to register my stance that the Nigerian constitution, on fundermental human rights was not drawn up to take advantage of our right rather to protect and defend our rights, with my enlisted points below.

As noted by Chafe, (1994:131), the primary requirement for debating anything is to understand first and foremost the critical thing being talked about. No one is likely to dispute the suggestion that the elementary facts is often being taken for granted particularly as it relates to debate on fundermental human rights. Human rights, also called natural human laws has been flagrantly used, abused as well as paraded under all sort of interest and guises. It is however, defined as in line with the context of Nigerian constitution as a set of legal protection in the context of a legal system wherein such system is itself based upon the same set of basic inalienable rights; such rights thus belong without presumption or cost of privilege to all human being under such jurisdiction. While, To take advantage of something, is to “use an opportunity to get or achieve something”.

In the light of the above, let us consider the situation surrounding the emergence of fundermental rights in Nigeria. Perior to the inauguration of civilian administration in may 1999, Nigeria human right record was nothing to write home about. Mainly because of long years of military dictatorship. After president Obasanjor inauguration, the government ceased to use military tribunal on civilian and announced the release of political prisoners and detainees in line with the prescription of our fundermental human right constitution. Under this tensed conditions you should not have expected the most important part of the Constitution (human right part), to be compromised, thereby taking advantage of our natural right.

Moreover, Nigerian fundermental rights share a great number of similarities as could be seen in world power countries as United Kingdom, United States, France, Brazil etc. Can we also say that their entire human right is being compromised and being taken for granted? No. Will be the right answer. It should also be noted that for a constitution to gain acceptability by the people there must be obvious involvement of all stake holders in fashioning it's content. There must be adequate and effective consultation of all sector (IDEA, 2003:26-27). in the light of this we can all affirm to it that our fundermental human rights portion of the Constitution is to protect us.

Conclusively, that the fundermental human rights has its limitations with the exception of so called non-derogable human rights ( the four most important are the right to life, life free from slavery, life free from torture, and life free from retroactive application of penal laws), most human rights can be limited or even pushed aside during times of war, it could also be limited by level of education, poverty, and religion. But this does not mean the entire human rights in Nigeria is drawn to take advantage of the people it was drawn for. If it was so, associations as national human rights commission (NHRC), human right monitor (HRM), human right law service (HURILAWS), and youth for human right protection and transparency initiative (YARPTI) would not have existed.

Finally, it should be noted that if someone, group of persons or even government walked on our right, it is on us as a duty to put it upon ourself and fight for our right as prescribed by our Constitution and that is why our eyes need to be opened to the provisions of the Constitution and not assume it to be designed as a conspiracy against us. Thanks for reading through.

References

Chafe, (1994). The principles of fundermental human rights, pg. 131

humanrights-monitor.org/

www​.unilorin.edu.ng/.../ISSUES.pdf

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_rights