₦airaland Forum

thehomer:
This is not quite correct. Consider this. If humans were somehow able to make sentient robots, does that mean that humans know more about what it is to be a robot than the actual robot does? As you've pointed out, personal knowledge depends a lot on human experience which of course, God does not have.

Yes because God being all powerful could have stopped the war for the greater benefit of the child or simply not allow children to be born in war zones.
Also, how about children who suffer or die of polio?

If humans were able to make sentient robots, they would know the capabilities of the robot and so can pass judgement based on the capabilities they know the sentient robots have.

We have mentioned earlier on this thread that God will not just wish away human suffering because human suffering is the consequence of an action and God is JUST.

thehomer:
Do we really have freewill with a God out there? I ask because God often coerces people and other mythical creatures to carry out acts that he desires.

Where was it written that God coerced someone to do something?
According to the bible God arranges events so that people's natural choices will achieve His plans. This is not the same as suspending the power of free will.

thehomer:
So bacteria, viruses, prions and other disease causing entities popped up because of sin?

Bacteria and viruses BECAME disease causing entities because of sin. The earth became corrupt. Many animals became flesh eaters and parasites when man sinned and corrupted God's creation on the earth.

There are many bacteria that are not disease causing entities.

thehomer:
The bottom line is that in Job's case, his suffering was not due to judgement but due to God's desire to show Job's faithfulness to the Devil? And you think this is the act of a loving God? If Job had refused to worship God after that he would then have been a good candidate for hell? After God's being an accessory to torture?

You don't seem to get the entire picture.
Satan had been trying to do bad things to job and God had been actively protecting job.
God gave Job a privilege that called for a responsibility.
If God had been protecting Job without any responsibility from Job then He would be partial because there were many people who did not enjoy the kind of protection that Job was enjoying.

thehomer:
But God does not understand the human condition. i.e He does not know what it is to be human.

God created us with certain capabilities and He judges us based on those capabilities.
If you create a robot, you definitely know all there is to know about the robot. You know all the circuitry, you know all the if-then-else's.
If you assembled rather than created the robot then there is a possibility of not knowing everything about the robot.

thehomer:
Do you have examples of this?

Such as?

An example of a big IF in science is the foundation of evolution.
Science does not know how lifeless matter gained the property of life.
If Science does not know the above then for the theory of evolution to have any credibility they have to ASSUME that what they don't know is possible is actually possible.

thehomer:
But God does not understand the human condition. i.e He does not know what it is to be human.

The judge is still human or a group of humans working based on human principles.

Not necessarily true. Besides, what if there was no crime? Or is simply being born a crime?

If God created humans, it is safe to say, He knows more about the human condition than humans themselves.
A human beings knowledge about himself is heavily biased by his experiences - The things that have happened to him and the things that have not happened to him.

If one is born into a war zone and suffers as a result, how would it be God's fault?
Humans started the war, A human being gave birth to the person.

thehomer:
This is an interesting take. But he is perfect. Why did he create imperfection?

Ok then. So God does not know all just probabilities. He is also limited by time as humans are.

God did not create imperfection. God created a being with free will. Free will entails the possibility of debasing oneself and becoming imperfect.

Yes in a sense, God's dealings with man are limited by time because man is limited by time.

For example, if you have a slow computer and you want to run a heavy program on it, even though you know what you want to do even before you start the program, you are constrained by the speed of the computer. If the computer did not have the speed limitation you too would not have the limitation.

thehomer:
How about suffering? How did this come about?

Suffering came as a result of sin.

For example: If you tell someone not to jump from a 3 storey building because his legs were not build to handle the shock from that hieght. if the person jumps and breaks his legs then suffering starts.

Pain in itself is the body's way of telling us that we have done something wrong and that we should not repeat the wrong actions.

thehomer:
Judgement? Have you considered e.g Job?

What if he punishes you by impoverishing you, inflicting you with disease and murdering your children or inviting someone else to do this? Would this make him evil?

In the case of Job, the bible did not say God invited satan to do anything to Job.
According to the bible, God, who of course is aware of the activities of satan (an evil spirit being who was given leeway to operate on the earth as a result of the sin of man) mentioned that Job was a righteous man and that He (God) was sure about Job's righteousness.
satan mentioned that he would have caused a lot of problems for Job if not that God had put a special protective hedge around Job because of his righteousness.
God removed the protective hedge around Job in order to show satan that Job would not make the same error that Adam did even if he was in a more dire situation.

1. God did not do anything bad to Job.
2. God provided the protective hedge around Job when Job could have done the same for himself. (I guess he may have been ignorant of that fact)
3. God's original purpose when He created man was that man would have dominion.
2. God has already done more for Job than He was supposed to do.

A lesson to be learnt from this story is that when God gives us certain privileges (Like the wealth Job had and the protective hedge around him) we will definitely have special responsibilities alongside the privileges, we will face harder situations than others who do not have those privileges.

A bad cop out with too many assumptions. How about when God decrees it that way?

I guess the previous post takes care of this.
A just God will not create human suffering just for the fun of it.

It may also be the consequence of bad diets, microbes, the environment etc.

If the God I'm refering to created the universe, He would not create suffering with it.

I am basing my argument on the premise that God (who is Just) created the universe.
We have to limit ourselves to the ramifications of that premise if we want to have any progress. I have explained that in a previous post.

But evil was present in heaven or is heaven a part of the universe?

I did not say evil was present in heaven.
Heaven and earth are not the only places in the universe.

I believe that a being (most likely not human) introduced evil into all of God's creation.
Human beings are only responsible for introducing evil into the earth as a result of the persuasion of another non-human being.

I can only (logically) make the above statements (in italics) later in my argument after I have elucidated some more axioms.

This is a circular argument because we are yet to establish that the universe was created good.

If you keep attacking the initial assumption before you get to the end of an argument you will not progress.

If in the argument for evolution we keep attacking the fact that there is no proof that living cells can materialize out of non-living matter then the theory falls apart before we even start.

When considering an argument one has to get to the end of the argument based on an assumption and then label the conclusion with the probability of the initial assumption being true.

At the end of this argument, my conclusion will be:
If our universe was created then God created it and Christianity has the best theory for its creation.
If our universe was not created then evolution has the best theory for how we got here.
Drawing out the logical conclusions of evolution and Christianity, it is more likely that Christianity is the better of the 2 theories.

Those conclusions include the initial assumptions.

Another huge assumption. Besides, I don't think an eternal, omnipotent, omniscient entity is in the best position to judge humans who have none of those features.

Omniscience is the major issue and we have said that God cannot be omniscient in the way that you refer to the word.

Human free will is contradictory to God having exact knowledge.

If God created humans then He is in the best position to Judge Humans because he knows the capabilities He built into humans.

It should readily occur to anyone reading this that only someone who is not part of a crime (the Judge) is in a position to judge the crime.
We would not expect one of the current members of Al-qaieda to determine the punishment of Osama Bin Laden

It would not be an overstatement to say there is no human being living on the earth right now that has never sinned (except babies - who would not have the knowledge to Judge).
If we are all part of the crime, surely none of us is qualified to be Judge.

thehomer:
This is a big if with huge unverified assumptions.

Everything about the history of the universe (including science) are all BIG IFs with huge empirically unverified assumptions.

Consider that science in general has many BIG IFs.
Even in something as basic as mathematics we still use assumptions that are only verified after the fact (and most times until someone else has a better mathematical solution)

thehomer:
This is a fallacy of equivocation. You're equivocating physical laws with human laws.

The laws we are refering to here are NOT HUMAN LAWS.

We are talking about the laws/principles that guide the actions of a being that is external to our universe.

step 6: Establish that evil could not have come from God therefore humans were not created evil
1. We have established in step 4 that God is Just / Morally upright.


No we have not.

That you do not agree with something does not mean that that thing is not logically possible.
Once again, God that I am refering to in this thread is such that He has to be Just and Morally upright else He would not be God in the sense that I am refering to.
Look through steps 1-4 again.

thehomer:
But God is perfect and omniscient.

If God is omniscient, then he is an accessory to the origin of evil. He also does not shy away from using evil.

God is responsible since he had foreknowledge of everything. He is an accessory to evil.

The bible never used the word omniscient and has never (as much as I know - And I have read the bible through) implied that God is omniscient in the way that most people use it.
I think God knows all the possible options that we can take but does not know the exact option that we will take therefore in a sense he has general knowledge on the possible places that one can end up not that he knows the exact place one will end up.

If God knows the choice that we will make then we do not have free will.
I think I have also addressed this issue on Nairaland.

thehomer:
Where then do you hypothesize that evil came from?

I think your premises have fallen.

Evil came as a result of the wrong choice of a being that had free will.

I think we have addressed that in this this thread.

thehomer:
But the Christian God regularly uses evil.

Please post the bible verses so we can address them.
The place where the bible says God creates peace and evil, evil there means trouble/ chaos as a form of judgement not evil in the sense that we mean on this thread.

If your father punishes you for doing something bad that doesn't make him evil, it makes him GOOD

thehomer:
This assumption requires a massive amount of hubris. The universe would collapse if humans were bad to each other? Wow. Also, what does Newton's 3rd law have to do with what you're saying here?

I did not say that it would and it is apparent that the universe would not collapse if humans were bad to each other.

The laws of universe can tell us about the character of the being that created the universe if we assume a creator.

In other words, the characteristics of a product may be able to tell us something of the character of the manufacturer.

thehomer:
Don't be so hasty. Have you considered ruled out other options such as there being two Gods. One absolutely good and the other absolutely evil? How about there being only an evil God?

There can be at least as many possibilities as there are humans on the earth.
it would be impossible to go through all the various possibilities in order to come to a conclusion.

There cannot be only an absolutely evil God. Why would an absolutely evil God create a sense of Justice in his creation.
If God were partially evil amd partially good then God is not stable and would not fit the description I gave in my former posts regarding Justice.

You do not believe in the existence of God so you logically should not care if I argue for the existence of just one God as opposed to having one evil God and one good God.

We have to eliminate the options one by one. If we attempt everything at once we'll be at risk of confusing ourselves

thehomer:
Why assume humans were created? There are other alternatives.

If you go by this assumption, you call up Euthphro's dilemma. To paraphrase, is what is morally good commanded by God because it is morally good, or is it morally good because it is commanded by God?

I have dealt with the alternatives by asking that we trace the logical conclusions of the atheistic and theistic worldviews.

The dilemma only surfaces if we are talking about moral goodness that is not necessarily based on Justice.
The moral goodness I refer to when talking about God is the same as Justice. In other words whatever is just is what I refer to as morally good.

If we assume that God would self destruct, and could not remain God except He is just then the dilemma vanishes. In other words, God cannot be unjust therefore whatever He commands is always Just and morally good in the sense of upholding Justice not just because God commanded it but because God cannot command something that is unjust.

thehomer:
You never clarified what you meant by "order".

Order is a reference to rank. If we rank all the beings being referred to in this thread then God is of a higher rank or order than humans if He created Humans.

Is there anyone else who does not understand the above or that the creator of a thing is of a higher order or rank when compared to his/her creation?

thehomer:
You are contradicting the entire Bible because it is a revelation of what you consider to be unknowable. If it is unknowable, then how can it be known to the authors?

When I refer to unknowable, I mean unknowable by scientific research.

If we assume that God exists then it is possible and logical to say that God could have revealed some things to the author of the bible if He wanted to.

thehomer:
It does if you do not consider the other alternatives rather than presenting just the one you like.

I don't think atheism has anything to do with a theory of creation.

Atheism is not a worldview. It is simply a non-belief in Gods.

I considered the alternatives when I said the best way to go about it was to trace out the logical conclusions of atheism and theism.

Atheism has something to do with the theory of HOW we came to be.

Atheism may not constitute a complete worldview by itself, but it is the basis of some worldviews we refer to as atheistic worldviews.

thehomer:
Ok but I don't think you do have enough information to stick with the Christian God.

I'm in the process of describing the information I have. When we are through then we'll see if there's enough information to stick with the God as described by the Bible.

toba:
an addition to post #367 nos 3¬
I dont think infomation can ever come out from non information same way nothing can come out of nothing or something cant come out of nothing do u agree?
Most of what u ve said here came out of something. u knew most of what u ve said based on some kind of idea that never came from void/emptiness right?

Yes, the best we know right now is that something cannot come out of nothing at least in our known universe.

I'm pausing for contributions,

Step 8: Establish that the introduction of Evil must have created human suffering.

1. If God is good and created the universe good then evil was not present when He created the universe.
2. If evil was not present when God created the universe and God would not remain God if He was evil then evil must have come from one of God's creations. (we have addressed this in a previous step)
3. Suffering is not a good consequence therefore it cannot be a consequence for good actions.
4. therefore human suffering can only be the consequence of evil.
This is not to say that a particular person's suffering is always caused by his/her bad deeds. What we are saying is that the introduction of evil must have been what generated human suffering as its consequence (in general).

Step 7: Establish that evil actions produce evil consequences and God is in a position to Judge.

1. We have established that God must be Just / Morally Upright
2. The universe has justice at its foundations (the law of cause and effect) in other words everything has a consequence.
3. If everything has a consequence then Good deeds should have a good consequence and Evil deeds should have an evil consequence for justice to be maintained.
4. If God created humans then He is in the right position to determine the evil consequences that evil actions deserve as He is in the best position to know the full effect of the evil action.

A human example of the above is played out in codes of justice in mose cultures that have spelt out punishments for actions considered evil to maintain a sense of Justice.