₦airaland Forum

obaaderemi:
Would you rather live in North Korea than Nigeria?
Maybe you need to read George Orwell's 1984 and imagine yourself under the eyes of BigBrother to see what i mean by the question above.

George Orwell's 1984 is like a mirror

kikuyu1:
And yet they were only 4% of the population at this time? Coincidence?

https://www.jstor.org/stable/4467094

Find out how even Mao was surrounded by these people. Fyi,when Selassie was overthrown in '75 the Communist Dergue,directly influenced by the KGB took over. Mengistu was forced to kill the Emperor by the latter,not more than 5 in number the leader of whom was Jewish. He said,"you must kill him and all the rest of the nobility-as we did with our own."
This was told me by an Amhara Ethiopian buddy's dad who worked for both Selassie and Mengistu's intel service til his defection in the late 70s. Some serious people say these constant murders are actually a sacrifice to Moloch,an integral part of their true religion and I'm inclined to agree.

And wtf does this have to do with Sankara, Lumumba and Nkrumah?

Abohboy:
You do realize anyone could do what you just did take pictures and add words to them this is the internet and fake news and history exist but clearly you don't understand that all you bring are memes and pictures instead of books or citations that prove that these people actually said these things because 9 times out of 10 they didn't actually say them.

Ok!

Abohboy:
How was Lumumba bad? He tried to nationalize all of Congo's mineral resources so the profit would stop leaving the country then a fake secesssion and crisis began supported by Belgium and he went everywhere for help America, Sweden, Ghana and Nigeria but none could provide the proper help that he seeked so he then went to the USSR and America said he was a communist for that decision and decided to support his assassination when in truth they knew he wasn't a communist and was just trying to get help to save his country

That was the problem!
Lumumba, like Mugabe later on was rash in his dealings with the Europeans. Without first building a viable and feasible base for their countries' development, they pandered to populism by rashly trying to push out the Europeans and replacing them with poorly prepared locals all because they were hot heads and wanted to appear popular. They saw themselves as freedom fighters but to what ends? Could Mugabe free his people from poverty and backwardness? If Lumumba had lived and stayed in office for many years, what economic policies did he have that could have moved Congo forward economically? He would have failed like others before him.

I don't allow myself to be carried away by the guile of those fast talking so called African freedom fighters.

Look at awolowo for example. He was in office for only three years as the premier of western Nigeria but his achievements are not in doubt. Nigeria up till now has not produced a leader close to him in economic development.

obaaderemi:
That was the problem!
Lumumba, like Mugabe later on was rash in his dealings with the Europeans. Without first building a viable and feasible base for their countries' development, they pandered to populism by rashly trying to push out the Europeans and replacing them with poorly prepared locals all because they were hot heads and wanted to appear popular. They saw themselves as freedom fighters but to what ends? Could Mugabe free his people from poverty and backwardness? If Lumumba had lived and stayed in office for many years, what economic policies did he have that could have moved Congo forward economically? He would have failed like others before him.

I don't allow myself to be carried away by the guile of these fast talking African fr

We don't know that the locals were ill prepared though do we and if he wasn't that much of a threat and would have destroyed Congo why tf was he assassinated by Belgium and America? He would have been a better leader then all these dictators currently in power in Congo how well has Congo been run since his death? Stop pandering towards the west and their views they aren't our friends and they never will be

communism should never be tried in Nigeria

it would be a disaster


a crazy one
we just need our regional democracy

Abohboy:
And how exactly did these private doctors help our economy? Because from what I see they destroyed the currency and till this day haven't helped to heal the wounds caused by their recomendations that's why Sankara banned the IMF when you take a loan from them they add strings to it giving them more power and control on your country and what happens within it and most times out of 10 the atrings attached are detrimental.

We destroyed our own economy and took a loan from them.
If we were doing fine, why did we go to them for the $4bn loan in 1985?
Did they force us to take the loan?

The Yorubas have a proverb: the lender's hand is always at the top while the taker's hand is always at the bottom.

So we put ourselves under their heel by taking loans from them. They're not your friend and will never be.
Look at what they're doing to the Kenyans. Recently they forced Kenya to freeze wage increase for the next four years and to cut funding to their top universities.
The thing is that Africans should develop their economies and stop taking loans from these evil doctors.
We borrow money to build railways and roads that can not put money into the government coffers or produce jobs. Why not put money into money making labour intensive industries like agro allied and textile/ apparels
like the Asians did?
We build shiny roads, railways and buildings to dig ourselves deeper into poverty and debt. Smh.

theTranscriber:
communism should never be tried in Nigeria


it would be a disaster



a crazy one

we just need our regional democracy

It can never work. Even Russia and China abandoned it.

.

obaaderemi:
It can never work. Even Russia and China abandoned it.

even Benin Republic tried communism


communism is only utopian on paper

it's very dangerous

theTranscriber:
communism should never be tried in Nigeria


it would be a disaster



a crazy one

we just need our regional democracy

Communism would never work but socialism would if we followed the ideology of Zik and Awolowo along with a regional democracy Nigeria would probably grow at 8% plus every year until then we will continue with our slow development and the only party in Nigeria with such an ideology right now is M.O.P but for some reason it isn't getting the attention that it should be getting but regardless we're working hard and we're going to continue trying to win elections in Nigeria and bring in the proper reforms.

Most of criticism IMF get is from politicians who caused the problem in the first place and find the chemotherapy from IMF tough and unpopular. Those are what you call tough conditionality or string attached. IMF come to fix a big problem - that if left alone - would led to economic collapse - and probably spread a contagion - because if Nigeria say owes people 100B dollars - and is unable to pay - it will affect those people - who also owe other people- and the entire international financial system.

Without IMF - what will you happen? The economy will collapse. The gov will be unable to pay salaries including of the armed forces. The armed forces will overthrow civilian gov and enact a military dictatorship. This is exactly what happened in Ghana in 1960s.

1965: Ghana Rejects IMF and World Bank Advance, Continues with Import Substitution Plan
Ghanaian President Kwame Nkrumah rejects IMF and World Bank recommendations to implement a economic development strategy based on non-inflationary borrowing and reduced government spending. Ghana’s refusal to implement these reforms makes it ineligible to receive loans from the two institutions. Nkrumah continues with a policy aimed at diversifying the Ghanaian economy through import substituting industrialization (ISI

And February 24, 1966: Dr. Kwame Nkrumah overthrown by military as he was unable to pay salaries.

Ghana would endure military dictatorship for almost 40yrs - 60s, 70s, 80s,90s..until 2002..if you exclude Jerry Rawling last 10yrs as an elected president.

Abohboy:
And how exactly did these private doctors help our economy? Because from what I see they destroyed the currency and till this day haven't helped to heal the wounds caused by their recomendations that's why Sankara banned the IMF when you take a loan from them they add strings to it giving them more power and control on your country and what happens within it and most times out of 10 the atrings attached are detrimental.

Abohboy:
We don't know that the locals were ill prepared though do we and if he wasn't that much of a threat and would have destroyed Congo why tf was he assassinated by Belgium and America? He would have been a better leader then all these dictators currently in power in Congo how well has Congo been run since his death? Stop pandering towards the west and their views they aren't our friends and they never will be

I am not pandering to the west. But most of the freedom fighters we celebrate were idiots. The early signs showed they could never develop their economies. We celebrate the ones who died early thinking they would have done well, the same way a section of Nigeria's population thought Buhari would have done well if he had been given more time in the 80s. They brought him back in 2015 now the masses are praying for 2023 to come quickly.

obaaderemi:
I am not pandering to the west. But most of the freedom fighters we celebrate were idiots. The early signs showed they could never develop their economies. We celebrate the ones who died early thinking they would have done well, the same way a section of Nigeria's population thought Buhari would have done well if he had been given more time in the 80s. They brought him back in 2015 now the masses are praying for 2023 to come quickly.

Which is most freedom fighters? I only celebrate three Sankara, Lumumba and Nkrumah the reason why Lumumba was assassinated by the west is because he posed a threat to their illegal resource gathering he was trying to pass laws to keep more of the money from their resources within the country and also to reduce the power of Belgium in the country but obviously they didn't want this to take place and you ca see they were very successful at this do you even know how many foreign airports there are in DRC alone? Where these countries come in with empty planes and leave with tons of cobalt, diamonds, gold, uranium and anything else that they want in the land, Lumumba was trying to stop that and was also trying to unite the country away from ethnic divisions but this was against what the wesr wanted there's no evidence to say that he would have been a bad leader.

Chicken and egg - without basic infrastructure - how will agro-processing or textile work?

Africa need to invest in basic infrastructure - not shiny airports or stadiums or light rails - but definitely electricity, roads, railways, water, sewage - basic or core infrastructure - they also need to social investment in it's people (HCI - education and health) - those are the basics - plus security and etc.

Where people can argue now is how gov should engage in enterprises? how will gov invest say in textile? or agriculture? What is role of gov in such private sector endeavors? Should Africa make same mistake Nkrumah and others did by investing in private sectors - building factories - or should it become the regulator - focus on basic infrastructure - manage the macro-economics better - and leave the private sector to build textile mills.

Kenya right now are engaged in such economic debate - as we prepare for next election - and it's good break from usual tribal politics. The debate is how gov should invest - continue the top down approach - or focus on bottom - on the SMES.

The answer I believe lies in organizing the bottom of the pyramid into cooperatives - so they can be able to negotiate better and achieve economic of scale. Kenya when it took this seriously in 60s and 70s - grew at 7 percent for a decade. Similarly gov should stay out of private business...kenya has way too much public sector or state owned enterprises...that it need to get out...use the proceeds to pay off some of the debt....and invest in basic infrastructure.

From 1963 to 1973 gross domestic product (GDP) grew at an annual average rate of 6.6%, and during the 1970s it grew at an average rate of 7.2%

This was a good as Asian tigers - and it was not resource dependant.

Kenya in 80s started going down - with global oil crisis leading in 1980s - and with population increases - and South Asians left us.

obaaderemi:
We destroyed our own economy and took a loan from them.
If we were doing fine, why did we go to them for the $4bn loan in 1985?
Did they force us to take the loan?

The Yorubas have a proverb: the lender's hand is always at the top while the taker's hand is always at the bottom.

So we put ourselves under their heel by taking loans from them. They're not your friend and will never be.
Look at what they're doing to the Kenyans. Recently they forced Kenya to freeze wage increase for the next four years and to cut funding to their top universities.
The thing is that Africans should develop their economies and stop taking loans from these evil doctors.
We borrow money to build railways and roads that can not put money into the government coffers or produce jobs. Why not put money into money making labour intensive industries like agro allied and textile/ apparels
like the Asians did?
We build shiny roads, railways and buildings to dig ourselves deeper into poverty and debt. Smh.

Abohboy:
Which is most freedom fighters? I only celebrate three Sankara, Lumumba and Nkrumah the reason why Lumumba was assassinated by the west is because he posed a threat to their illegal resource gathering he was trying to pass laws to keep more of the money from their resources within the country and also to reduce the power of Belgium in the country but obviously they didn't want this to take place and you ca see they were very successful at this do you even know how many foreign airports there are in DRC alone? Where these countries come in with empty planes and leave with tons of cobalt, diamonds, gold, uranium and anything else that they want in the land, Lumumba was trying to stop that and was also trying to unite the country away from ethnic divisions but this was against what the wesr wanted there's no evidence to say that he would have been a bad leader.

No evidence points to the fact that Lumumba would have been different from the others. Mugabe also pushed out the Europeans, if he had died immediately, we would have people telling us today how he would have done well if he had lived long.
FYI, Lumumba was trying to bring in an American business man to come and help him with investment in Congo shortly before he died. It would have still ended the same way with the Americans hijacking the economy.
No one can point to one positive move Lumumba made that could have grown the economy of Congo if he had lived long.

Precisely. The real african heros like Botswana 1st president Sertese Khama never get mentioned. He is never mentioned because he was not a demagogue...he was making unpopular reforms. The rest were just enriching themselves while shouting hoarse about colonialism, racism, neocolonialism.

At the time of its independence in 1966, Botswana was the world's third-poorest country, poorer than most other African countries.[13][14][15][16][17] Its infrastructure was minimal, with only 12 kilometres (7.5 miles) of paved roads; and few of its people had formal education, with only 22 university graduates and 100 secondary school graduates.[18]

Khama set out on a vigorous economic programme intended to transform the nation into an export-based economy, built around beef, copper and diamonds. The 1967 discovery of Orapa's diamond deposits aided this programme.[13]

Khama instituted strong measures against corruption, the bane of so many other newly independent African nations. Unlike other countries in Africa, his administration adopted market-friendly policies to foster economic development . Khama promised low and stable taxes to mining companies, liberalized trade, and increased personal freedoms. He maintained low marginal income tax rates to deter tax evasion and corruption.[16] He upheld liberal democracy and non-racism in the midst of a region embroiled in civil war, racial enmity and corruption.[19] Khama embraced the rule of law.[17]

The small public service was transformed into an efficient and relatively corruption-free bureaucracy with workers hired based on merit. Calls to immediately "indigenize" the bureaucracy were resisted, and the government retained foreign expatriates working in the bureaucracy until suitably qualified locals could be found to replace them . Khama and his people also drew on[b] international advisers and consultants[/b]. Mining companies were encouraged to search the country for more resources, leading to the discovery of additional copper, nickel, and coal deposits.[18]

obaaderemi:
No evidence points to the fact that Lumumba would have been different from the others. Mugabe also pushed out the Europeans, if he had died immediately, we would have people telling us today how he would have done well if he had lived long.
FYI, Lumumba was trying to bring in an American business man to come and help him with investment in Congo shortly before he died. It would have still ended the same way with the Americans hijacking the economy.
No one can point to one positive move Lumumba made that could have grown the economy of Congo if he had lived long.

rvp2018:
Chicken and egg - without basic infrastructure - how will agro-processing or textile work?

Africa need to invest in basic infrastructure - not shiny airports or stadiums or light rails - but definitely electricity, roads, railways, water, sewage - basic or core infrastructure - they also need to social investment in it's people (HCI - education and health) - those are the basics - plus security and etc.

Where people can argue now is how gov should engage in enterprises? how will gov invest say in textile? or agriculture? What is role of gov in such private sector endeavors? Should Africa make same mistake Nkrumah and others did by investing in private sectors - building factories - or should it become the regulator - focus on basic infrastructure - manage the macro-economics better - and leave the private sector to build textile mills.

Kenya right now are engaged in such economic debate - as we prepare for next election - and it's good break from usual tribal politics. The debate is how gov should invest - continue the top down approach - or focus on bottom - on the SMES.

The answer I believe lies in organizing the bottom of the pyramid into cooperatives - so they can be able to negotiate better and achieve economic of scale. Kenya when it took this seriously in 60s and 70s - grew at 7 percent for a decade. Similarly gov should stay out of private business...kenya has way too much public sector or state owned enterprises...that it need to get out...use the proceeds to pay off some of the debt....and invest in basic infrastructure.

From 1963 to 1973 gross domestic product (GDP) grew at an annual average rate of 6.6%, and during the 1970s it grew at an average rate of 7.2%

This was a good as Asian tigers - and it was not resource dependant.

Kenya in 80s started going down - with global oil crisis leading in 1980s - and with population increases - and South Asians left us.

There is a story in Lee Khan Yew's book From Third World To First World about a visit he made to a Chinese shoe factory (or something like that) at a time when China was still poor. The road to the factory was in bad condition.

So he asked the factory manager why they didn't build the road before setting up the factory. The manager told him if they had little man, the best thing was to build the factory first and when the factory became profitable it would produce the funds to finance the building of the road. There's a lot of lesson in that story for African leadership.

And it's a good thing if we make election campaigns about issues instead of tribalism and such things.
What should be the role of government in economic development is a good question to ask those who aspire to office either federal or local government office.

rvp2018:
You're doing badly. The Boer built universities are not enough for country of 60m people. That is why you have enrollment of 700K - with maybe 200k being foreign students - meaning the average black kid in Limpopo has no hope of going to university

South Africa has 26 public universities with nearly one million students while 700 000 students are registered at the more than 50 higher education training colleges (TVET colleges – Technical vocational education training). An additional 90 000 students can be found at various private institutions. South Africa has seen a major expansion of student enrolment. University enrolment has increased from about 500 000 in 1994. Enrolment at the colleges has increased from around 200 000 in 2000. The vast majority of students are now Africans. This is a dramatic increase – although the number of students in South Africa’s higher education system in relation to the size of its population (55 million) is still far too low compared to other middle-income developing countries. The government plans to increase university enrolment to 1.5 million by 2030.

200k foreign students? Where did you get that number?

It may be low however when you factor that South Africa was playing catch up to many countries and now is leading. Will soon get there.

The number of expansions, medical schools are in place and ongoing as we speak, increasingly capacity as it caters large number of international students from aboard.

obaaderemi:
No evidence points to the fact that Lumumba would have been different from the others. Mugabe also pushed out the Europeans, if he had died immediately, we would have people telling us today how he would have done well if he had lived long.
FYI, Lumumba was trying to bring in an American business man to come and help him with investment in Congo shortly before he died. It would have still ended the same way with the Americans hijacking the economy.
No one can point to one positive move Lumumba made that could have grown the economy of Congo if he had lived long.

Mugabe fought a war, Lumumba won an election there's a difference between the two and he needed a company to mine the products they didn't have the money to buy the necessary equipment for mining and they certainly didn't want Belgium to continue getting all the money and profits from the mine this company would have shared the profits made from mining with the government and you still haven't answered this if he wasn't going to be a good leader why was he assassinated by Belgium and America?

can we please stop talking about failed governments of the 20th century?

rvp2018:
Precisely. The real african heros like Botswana 1st president Sertese Khama never get mentioned. He is never mentioned because he was not a demagogue...he was making unpopular reforms. The rest were just enriching themselves while shouting hoarse about colonialism, racism, neocolonialism.

At the time of its independence in 1966, Botswana was the world's third-poorest country, poorer than most other African countries.[13][14][15][16][17] Its infrastructure was minimal, with only 12 kilometres (7.5 miles) of paved roads; and few of its people had formal education, with only 22 university graduates and 100 secondary school graduates.[18]

Khama set out on a vigorous economic programme intended to transform the nation into an export-based economy, built around beef, copper and diamonds. The 1967 discovery of Orapa's diamond deposits aided this programme.[13]

Khama instituted strong measures against corruption, the bane of so many other newly independent African nations. Unlike other countries in Africa, his administration adopted market-friendly policies to foster economic development . Khama promised low and stable taxes to mining companies, liberalized trade, and increased personal freedoms. He maintained low marginal income tax rates to deter tax evasion and corruption.[16] He upheld liberal democracy and non-racism in the midst of a region embroiled in civil war, racial enmity and corruption.[19] Khama embraced the rule of law.[17]

The small public service was transformed into an efficient and relatively corruption-free bureaucracy with workers hired based on merit. Calls to immediately "indigenize" the bureaucracy were resisted, and the government retained foreign expatriates working in the bureaucracy until suitably qualified locals could be found to replace them . Khama and his people also drew on[b] international advisers and consultants[/b]. Mining companies were encouraged to search the country for more resources, leading to the discovery of additional copper, nickel, and coal deposits.[18]

The bolded is where I have a problem with Lumumba, Mugabe and others like them.
It's like me shunning the services of my electrician because I don't like him anymore and giving the job to my friend who doesnt have the skill because we come from the same town. He will burn down the house.

rvp2018:
You're doing badly. The Boer built universities are not enough for country of 60m people. That is why you have enrollment of 700K - with maybe 200k being foreign students - meaning the average black kid in Limpopo has no hope of going to university

South Africa has 26 public universities with nearly one million students while 700 000 students are registered at the more than 50 higher education training colleges (TVET colleges – Technical vocational education training). An additional 90 000 students can be found at various private institutions. South Africa has seen a major expansion of student enrolment. University enrolment has increased from about 500 000 in 1994. Enrolment at the colleges has increased from around 200 000 in 2000. The vast majority of students are now Africans. This is a dramatic increase – although the number of students in South Africa’s higher education system in relation to the size of its population (55 million) is still far too low compared to other middle-income developing countries. The government plans to increase university enrolment to 1.5 million by 2030.

You seem pained that we have the best universities.

University were build by South African resources with South African money and south African citizens.



I couldn't careless whether dangote refinery is built by a fulani, igbo, Lebanese, Chinese.... It it Nigerian. If you pained by that that's your issue

rvp2018:
You're doing badly. The Boer built universities are not enough for country of 60m people. That is why you have enrollment of 700K - with maybe 200k being foreign students - meaning the average black kid in Limpopo has no hope of going to university

South Africa has 26 public universities with nearly one million students while 700 000 students are registered at the more than 50 higher education training colleges (TVET colleges – Technical vocational education training). An additional 90 000 students can be found at various private institutions. South Africa has seen a major expansion of student enrolment. University enrolment has increased from about 500 000 in 1994. Enrolment at the colleges has increased from around 200 000 in 2000. The vast majority of students are now Africans. This is a dramatic increase – although the number of students in South Africa’s higher education system in relation to the size of its population (55 million) is still far too low compared to other middle-income developing countries. The government plans to increase university enrolment to 1.5 million by 2030.

Kenya had a headstart along with Tanzania.

Apartheid government was under sanctions for around 30yrs while blacks were oppressed.

During that time Kenya was free roaming running their affairs, what made you not build world class universities?

Yeah yeah"but we don't have minerals" that's a lame excuse

theTranscriber:
can we please stop talking about failed governments of the 20th century?

There's a lesson to be learnt from them though if you think about it

Mugabe didn't make a proper foundation upon which the people could successfuly run the country without the British

Nkrumah spent his money in the wrong places and was too quick with his attempts at greater economic reforms and industrialization

Lumumba didn't plan well for the ensuing crisis

Toure was an idiot

Nyerere was an idiot

Sankara was a good leader not sure why he was killed tbh

And that's basically it if we can learn from their past mistakes we can do a lot better when it comes onto us.

AfriqueDuZuid:
Kenya had a headstart along with Tanzania.

Apartheid government was under sanctions for around 30yrs while blacks were oppressed.

During that time Kenya was free roaming running their affairs, what made you not build world class universities?

Yeah yeah"but we don't have minerals" that's a lame excuse

Sanctioned by who? Your gold and diamonds were still being bought and America didn't even do anything when they found out about your nuclear weapon plans

Abohboy:
Sanctioned by who? Your gold and diamonds were still being bought and America didn't even do anything when they found out about your nuclear weapon plans

By the rest of the world, sanctions have certain levels

They started with sanctioning, companies to stop investing in South Africa check the Coca-Cola story and IBM.

Even oil they stopped other countries to export oil to South Africa that's how SASOL(south African synthetic oil L..) started, SA started extracting oil from coal becoming the first country to do so.

Same way North Korean president has fleets of Mercedes.

Abohboy:
Sanctioned by who? Your gold and diamonds were still being bought and America didn't even do anything when they found out about your nuclear weapon plans

When nuclear weapons story come south Africa was already on its knees, in long recession and peace/democracy/Mandela release were already ongoing.

AfriqueDuZuid:
When nuclear weapons story come south Africa was already on its knees, in long recession and peace/democracy/Mandela release were already ongoing.

So in the 1960s Mandela was about to be released? Bro stop lying

Abohboy:
Sanctioned by who? Your gold and diamonds were still being bought and America didn't even do anything when they found out about your nuclear weapon plans

AGAIN the diamond and gold rush highs were on in the mid 1900s-1960s

AfriqueDuZuid:
By the rest of the world, sanctions have certain levels

They started with sanctioning, companies to stop investing in South Africa check the Coca-Cola story and IBM.

Even oil they stopped other countries to export oil to South Africa that's how SASOL(south African synthetic oil L..) started, SA started extracting oil from coal becoming the first country to do so.

Same way North Korean president has fleets of Mercedes.

Sanctions against South Africa only started in 1986 and ended in 1991 that's barely anything

Abohboy:
So in the 1960s Mandela was about to be released? Bro stop lying

Mandela was arrested in the 60s

The apartheid government was not as brutal then after 1965 that's when the atrocities became international knowledge and sanctions started.

And they kept intensifying them from then