₦airaland Forum

Abohboy:
Sanctions against South Africa only started in 1986 and ended in 1991 that's barely anything

They started way before but they wetter not so severe

AfriqueDuZuid:
Mandela was arrested in the 60s

The apartheid government was not as brutal then after 1965 that's when the atrocities became international knowledge and sanctions started.

And they kept intensifying them from then

You said you started making nuclear weapons when Mandela was released that's a lie you started making the weapons in the 60s and it was common knowledge before then it's just that they were benefiting from the gold and diamonds once the rush died down in the 70s they now had to play the role and attack South Africa but even then they sanctions they unleashed were mild and barely had any effect on South Africa the first major sanction only came in 1986 from the US and was ended 5 years leater so South Africa wasn't effected that badly by any sanction

rvp2018:
Most of criticism IMF get is from politicians who caused the problem in the first place and find the chemotherapy from IMF tough and unpopular. Those are what you call tough conditionality or string attached. IMF come to fix a big problem - that if left alone - would led to economic collapse - and probably spread a contagion - because if Nigeria say owes people 100B dollars - and is unable to pay - it will affect those people - who also owe other people- and the entire international financial system.

Without IMF - what will you happen? The economy will collapse. The gov will be unable to pay salaries including of the armed forces. The armed forces will overthrow civilian gov and enact a military dictatorship. This is exactly what happened in Ghana in 1960s.

1965: Ghana Rejects IMF and World Bank Advance, Continues with Import Substitution Plan
Ghanaian President Kwame Nkrumah rejects IMF and World Bank recommendations to implement a economic development strategy based on non-inflationary borrowing and reduced government spending. Ghana’s refusal to implement these reforms makes it ineligible to receive loans from the two institutions. Nkrumah continues with a policy aimed at diversifying the Ghanaian economy through import substituting industrialization (ISI

And February 24, 1966: Dr. Kwame Nkrumah overthrown by military as he was unable to pay salaries.

Ghana would endure military dictatorship for almost 40yrs - 60s, 70s, 80s,90s..until 2002..if you exclude Jerry Rawling last 10yrs as an elected president.

If you know what import substitution was, you would know, that was one of the best economic policies of Nkrumah....

Depending on loans is not the best way to develop a country and that is why Kenya is suffering without any real growth..

The armed forces in Ghana were paid regularly, They only overthrew Nkrumah because he was forcing their top leaders to retire.

And this happened in a period were Britain and USA became increasingly hostile because Nkrumah was going against their world order...
And the CIA began testing their COVERT REGIME CHANGE tool..

In In Search of Enemies he writes that an official sanction for the coup does not appear in CIA documents, but he writes "the Accra station was nevertheless encouraged by headquarters to maintain contact with dissidents.

"It was given a generous budget, and maintained intimate contact with the plotters as a coup was hatched."

He says that the CIA in Ghana got more involved and its operatives were given "unofficial credit for the eventual coup".

Another declassified document written after the coup describes Nkrumah's fall as a "fortuitous windfall. Nkrumah was doing more to undermine our interests than any other black African".

Abohboy:
You said you started making nuclear weapons when Mandela was released that's a lie you started making the weapons in the 60s and it was common knowledge before then it's just that they were benefiting from the gold and diamonds once the rush died down in the 70s they now had to play the role and attack South Africa but even then they sanctions they unleashed were mild and barely had any effect on South Africa the first major sanction only came in 1986 from the US and was ended 5 years leater so South Africa wasn't effected that badly by any sanction

I said when nuclear weapons began to become public and international knowledge already peace talk we already started, again US came late to the sanctions party other country already put sanctions on SA for years,

US sanctions were just nail in the coffin of the already weaker SA

Since 1994 till now is 30yrs. Stop looking for excuses and build more universities and colleges. You cannot be proud to have 25 universities in a country of 60m people. That is like one university for 2.5m people almost.

AfriqueDuZuid:
Kenya had a headstart along with Tanzania.

Apartheid government was under sanctions for around 30yrs while blacks were oppressed.

During that time Kenya was free roaming running their affairs, what made you not build world class universities?

Yeah yeah"but we don't have minerals" that's a lame excuse

Abohboy:
You said you started making nuclear weapons when Mandela was released that's a lie you started making the weapons in the 60s and it was common knowledge before then it's just that they were benefiting from the gold and diamonds once the rush died down in the 70s they now had to play the role and attack South Africa but even then they sanctions they unleashed were mild and barely had any effect on South Africa the first major sanction only came in 1986 from the US and was ended 5 years leater so South Africa wasn't effected that badly by any sanction

It was affected badly

How ever sanctions are blessing in disguise, you get to depend on yourself, build your own things, own industries.... Look at Russia today

These were the start of Nkrumah troubles in Ghana
More people felt he had too much interest in what went on in the rest of Africa, when his duty was to Ghana.... But they forget that, there would be no economic progress for a newly industrialized Ghana, if the rest of Africa remain under colonial Rule.




Ghana also remained a member of the Commonwealth, but in 1965, when the white Rhodesians unilaterally declared themselves independent from Great Britain, this link to the West also began to weaken. Ghana took a leading role in criticizing Britain for not preventing this seizure of power by the white minority. Nkrumah called for military intervention, and with the example of the Congo in 1960 still fresh, he hoped that Ghanaian forces would play a prominent role. Eventually, under pressure from other OAU members, Ghana was forced to break diplomatic relations with Great Britain. However, even after the latter's diplomats left, a military mission remained that included a British brigadier. The possibility of military involvement in Rhodesia was most unwelcome to the demoralized Ghanaian military. It seemed as if the President's Own Guard Regiment (POGR) was going to succeed the regular military, which was suspect and being starved for funds. Even as Nkrumah was holding out the possibility of offensive operations in Rhodesia, he was forcing into retirement the army's most senior officers. It was this action more than any other, according to then Major A. A. Afrifa, that led to the military-police coup that overthrew Nkrumah on February 24, 1966.

rvp2018:
Since 1994 till now is 30yrs. Stop looking for excuses and build more universities and colleges. You cannot be proud to have 25 universities in a country of 60m people. That is like one university for 2.5m people almost.

Since 1994 more campuses were built other universities were merged.

For capacity to increase by 600% that tells you already that new buildings campuses were built.

Number of universities don't matter capacity is what matters, incase you don't know South Africa used to have more universities but others were merged for better management.

Hueman:
Pyongyang North Korea VS Lagos Nigeria

Oga let’s bring this conversation back towards reality.

NoKor is a relic of a TYPICAL Commie country. Poor and underdeveloped in ALL WAYS!
Where are the cars in Pyongyang?

Paranoia, no cars and silence in the cities: What I saw when I played golf in the most secretive and dangerous country on earth

[url][https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1392821/amp/North-Korea-Paranoia-cars-silence-cities.html/url]

The few cars and other modern conveniences are STRICTLY reserved for the Bigwigs, formerly called the nomenklatura.

the former Soviet Union) the system whereby influential posts in government and industry were filled by Party appointees.
"the system of nomenklatura, which reserves important appointments to the Party apparatus"
those people appointed to posts in government or industry under the nomenklatura system.
"most of the caviar was kept for the nomenklatura"

The average citizen in such a nation simply exists while forced to praise a system he despises. Check out the TRUTH of Cuba's healthcare.

But there’s something sad about visiting Cuba - it’s a country held back by a regime hellbent on appropriating the products of hard-working farmers, squashing opposition, and communism as a means to control - even though it quite blatantly, as always, is not working...Indeed, Cuba’s system is really a two (or even three) tier system. Dr. Jaime Suchlicki of the University of Miami’s Institute for Cuban and Cuban-American Studies explains this. The first is for foreigners who come to Cuba as medical tourists - they pay in hard currency and treated to quality medical treatment, as they would expect in Europe or North America. These facilities, which cater only to medical tourists, do expensive treatments in cosmetic surgery.

There’s also quality service for the elite in Cuba - and then there’s the ‘real’ system. Dr. Suchlicki documents a few of the vast array of testimonies on this and notes unsanitary conditions, crumbling facilities, and hospitals where patients are expected to bring their own bedsheets, soap, towels, food, toilet paper and even light bulbs.

[url][https://www.adamsmith.org/blog/the-myth-of-cuban-healthcareurl]

Even THE docs they send abroad got 7 USD monthly while THE state receives like 4k USD. Communism is perhaps the cruelest con on the globe.

rvp2018:
Since 1994 till now is 30yrs. Stop looking for excuses and build more universities and colleges. You cannot be proud to have 25 universities in a country of 60m people. That is like one university for 2.5m people almost.

Stop looking at it in a naive ignorant manner, you are a graduate.

Capacity has been increased every years new campuses built..... CAPACITY

AfriqueDuZuid:
Stop looking at it in a naive ignorant manner, you are a graduate.

Capacity has been increased every years new campuses built..... CAPACITY

He wasn't taught Logical reasoning... dont expect him to exhibit such


All he knows is quantity

rvp2018:
Since 1994 till now is 30yrs. Stop looking for excuses and build more universities and colleges. You cannot be proud to have 25 universities in a country of 60m people. That is like one university for 2.5m people almost.

You see, before we had so many established many universities. They were full fledged universities with campuses

But were merged into one and with one corporate center of operation. It was never about the number of universities but quality and capacity.

Yes yes we build two new universities recently capacity is being increased

Just30:
He wasn't taught Logical reasoning... dont expect him to exhibit such


All he knows is quantity

For a grown man with kids it's disappointing.

I expect him to reason like a graduate he always CLAIM to be. But again every one can make these claim after all.

Just30:
All he knows

AGAIN the South African history most people know is not the true history.

I will tell you a bit about it one day, it's fascinating. Most just know soweto story not true history, that's why people always comes with "boers built" "whites story".

AfriqueDuZuid:
For a grown man with kids it's disappointing.

I expect him to reason like a graduate he always CLAIM to be. But again every one can make these claim after all.

He reasons like a child, His thinking is mostly one dimensional

Just30:
He is

Nkrumah dont really need defending, his great works speaks for him...
This Kenyan think Nkrumah thinks like his myopic leaders who only think about their stomach...

Nkrumah is celebrated as the greatest African even by Kenyans themselves.
All the stooges in Kenya, that he call leaders, all celebrate Nkrumah.

So just allow the Kenyan Lunatic who hasn't read wide to keep posting his usual nonsense

This is how Kenyans think and that is why they are mostly poor
#below

oga, this ur pics is epic.

rvp2018:
Since 1994 till now is 30yrs. Stop looking for excuses and build more universities and colleges. You cannot be proud to have 25 universities in a country of 60m people. That is like one university for 2.5m people almost.

AGAIN Kenya is almost 60 years of self rule stop making excuses like "but we have no minerals" "we don't have whites"

Kenya is almost 54m population stop making excuses"oh we 44m" "we only 5 million in Kenya"

Thanks

When i first saw it, all I could think of was Kenyans on this platform

Their arguments makes me know they are poorly educated

theenchanter:
oga, this ur pics is epic.

i will love to

Every community has a history to their existence

AfriqueDuZuid:
AGAIN the South African history most people know is not the true history.

I will tell you a bit about it one day, it's fascinating. Most just know soweto story not true history, that's why people always comes with "boers built" "whites story".

Just30:
i will love to

Every community has a history to their existence

I will start with Bophuthatswana "homeland"

AfriqueDuZuid:

AGAIN the South African history most people know is not the true history.

I will tell you a bit about it one day, it's fascinating. Most just know soweto story not true history, that's why people always comes with "boers built" "whites story".

Am eagerly waiting! I hope it won't be that mfecane F'ERY dismissed last year or those talking points beloved of curtain segments of your population like the "empty land" B.S..

kikuyu1:
Am eagerly waiting! I hope it won't be that mfecane F'ERY dismissed last year or those talking points beloved of curtain segments of your population like the "empty land" B.S..

Dismissing something does not mean it's not true or did not happen.

kikuyu1:
Am eagerly waiting! I hope it won't be that mfecane F'ERY dismissed last year or those talking points beloved of curtain segments of your population like the "empty land" B.S..

Also in South Africa case the written and accepted history is mostly what ANC, IFP and apartheid only agreed upon.

If you Google any thing I write here you will see it's on old archives now main stream

Kenya population in 2009 was 47.5M. That is census we spend 200M dollars on. Get used to that.
Now every year we are adding 1.2-1.5m people - give and take - so as we speak kenya population is roughly around 50m.
We have about 0.6M admitted in universities.
We have about 0.4M admitted in TIVET - colleges.
We have about 3.6-4m admitted in high schools.
We have about 10m admitted in primary school.
We have about 2-3m admitted in pre-primary,

There are things we have nailed.

Recently we achieved Africa 1st 100 percent primary to secondary transition. All the 1.1M kids who complete 8yrs of primary education moving to secondary - we are hunting them in slums and anywhere until we make sure everyone has reported. Incredible.

There are things we are far behind - TIVET is one of those - we want to raise admission from 0.4m to 2million in very short time.

University enrollment is okay - but if we hit 1million - that will be okay - but major problem is to ensure 100 percent high school transition to TIVET/College.

Some investment in TIVET including giving them loans and bursary like university students, we are building 200 TIVET colleges, and have risen enrollment triple in 5yrs - and we want to quadripple that in another 5yrs

Kenya TIVET Bursary Scheme: The Higher Education Loans Board Kenya invites applications for TIVET bursaries from eligible students in Technical, Industrial, Vocational and Entrepreneurship Training (TIVET) tertiary institutions. TIVET institutions include Public National Polytechnics, Institutes of Technology and Technical Training institutes country-wide.

Elsewhere we are fine. We long stopped looking for excuses and are fixing our country.

AfriqueDuZuid:
AGAIN Kenya is almost 60 years of self rule stop making excuses like "but we have no minerals" "we don't have whites"

Kenya is almost 54m population stop making excuses"oh we 44m" "we only 5 million in Kenya"

I think there is something that people do not realize - Asians are not pre-industrial countries like Africa - they already had some manufacturing or industrial history - albeit not as successfully as say Europe.

In any case - what would be China gov in that shoe factory?

My view is simple - gov should concentrate on basic infrastructure, ensure there is security, ensure there is proper social investment on the kids and the poor, ensure they are playing fair regulator and umpire in the private sector space.

It should reduce red-tape, ensure macro-economics are solid (low taxation, fiscal, monetary policy that are stable), it should lay the red carpet for foreign investors, and that is it.

When it come to enterprises - gov should refuse to engage - just like communism has shown - gov just cannot succeed in private sector - or for profit sector.

Gov if it has excess taxes - after doing basic infrastructure - should invest in complimentary infrastructure - light rails, airports - name it.

or focus on informal sector in Africa - this where most enterprise exist in - and they are not private sector - gov should ensure these informal sectors are organized, regulated and formalized through cooperative model for example - and they become as competitive as any of the private sector.

obaaderemi:
There is a story in Lee Khan Yew's book From Third World To First World about a visit he made to a Chinese shoe factory (or something like that) at a time when China was still poor. The road to the factory was in bad condition.

So he asked the factory manager why they didn't build the road before setting up the factory. The manager told him if they had little man, the best thing was to build the factory first and when the factory became profitable it would produce the funds to finance the building of the road. There's a lot of lesson in that story for African leadership.

And it's a good thing if we make election campaigns about issues instead of tribalism and such things.
What should be the role of government in economic development is a good question to ask those who aspire to office either federal or local government office.

Import substitution was tried all over Africa in 1960s - the same period Kwame was on it - they are all failed. South Asian tigers refused to heed such advice and went for export led manufacturing - and they succeeded.

Kwame communism led to Ghana economic collapse and his subsequent overthrow. The rest are just attempt to rewrite history. Kwame was an epic failure in managing Ghana economy.

Indeed, Ghana experienced reasonably high growth soon thereafter, but by 1965 per capita growth was already negative, and when the coup d’état overthrew the Nkrumah regime in February 1966, per capita income was below its value at the time of independence

Just30:
If you know what import substitution was, you would know, that was one of the best economic policies of Nkrumah....

Depending on loans is not the best way to develop a country and that is why Kenya is suffering without any real growth..

The armed forces in Ghana were paid regularly, They only overthrew Nkrumah because he was forcing their top leaders to retire.

And this happened in a period were Britain and USA became increasingly hostile because Nkrumah was going against their world order...
And the CIA began testing their COVERT REGIME CHANGE tool..

In In Search of Enemies he writes that an official sanction for the coup does not appear in CIA documents, but he writes "the Accra station was nevertheless encouraged by headquarters to maintain contact with dissidents.

"It was given a generous budget, and maintained intimate contact with the plotters as a coup was hatched."

He says that the CIA in Ghana got more involved and its operatives were given "unofficial credit for the eventual coup".

Another declassified document written after the coup describes Nkrumah's fall as a "fortuitous windfall. Nkrumah was doing more to undermine our interests than any other black African".

Bifwoli:
Nigeria's latest Gini coefficient of wealth inequality is in the socially dangerous red zone...meaning up in the 80's.

Nigeria would benefit a lot from dismantling capitalism. If you are interested in learning why capitalism is bad join Seun kuti M.O.P party. It’s a pan African socialist party.

rvp2018:
I agree that communism and socialisms are not necessarily bad...and I believe the best systems is the one that picked the best aspect of capitalism and communism...and that is socialiasm...meaning you have private sector running on capitalism....but you have socially minded public sector.

This is what best countries in the world - the scandavians are doing. Almost 50 percent of GDP is socially minded public sector and 50 percent is capitalist market economy driven private sector. The result is an equal prosperous society.

What Nigeria and Africa need is cooperatives - not communism. Many advanced countries like Spain and Italy run very large successfully cooperative movement....in almost any sector....and it achieve the objective of communism without running down the economy. It's voluntary.

A cooperative (also known as co-operative, co-op, or coop) is "an autonomous association of persons united voluntarily to meet their common economic, social, and cultural needs and aspirations through a jointly-owned enterprise".[1] Cooperatives are democratically owned by their members, with each member having one vote in electing the board of directors. Cooperatives may include:

Your first mistake is thinking we should learn from western Europe. These are countries that grew their wealth from colonialism, imperialism and holding us back. There’s nothing to learn from them. Without us they’ll be living in poverty. China got to were it is with a planned economy. They became a super power without all these harmful things the west did. They industrialize really quickly without holding back the development of the rest of the world. You know who also did this The ussr. These are the people Africans need to learn from. From my definition you can see how saying we should mix socialism and capitalism is an oxymoron. What you just described you wanted was capitalism with a welfare state. And that’s still not a good thing, because workers are still not free. Workers are still exploited under these system. The system is built on imperialism which continues to harm us since we come from the global south. Fun fact: those Norwegian countries have a state owned oil company that are part of the people destroying the Niger delta. Their wealth and social services is built on imperialism. They have to destroy our environment so they can afford these stuff. That’s the truth they never tell you. Socialism are co-op with a little extra step. So you being against Marxist theory but want Co-op is kinda funny.

obaaderemi:
Would you rather live in North Korea than Nigeria?
Maybe you need to read George Orwell's 1984 and imagine yourself under the eyes of BigBrother to see what i mean by the question above.

North Korea life expectancy is 71
Nigeria life expectancy is 55

You do the math.

“It is difficult for me to imagine what “personal liberty” is enjoyed by an unemployed hungry person. True freedom can only be where there is no exploitation and oppression of one person by another; where there is not unemployment, and where a person is not living in fear of losing his job, his home and his bread.“

-Joseph Stalin

obaaderemi:
China and Vietnam only started doing well when they embraced elements of capitalism.

Vietnam is so capitalist that they paused their economy to handle a pandemic.

China is so capitalist that they kill billionaires for corruption.

pls oga read something. These countries are not like America. And what happening in them is far more complex. For instance China recently banned private education to remove the gap between the rich and the poor. They recently created a program were high quality teachers are rotated around the country so student of different backgrounds can have the best quality education. These countries do not practice neoliberalism nor do they intend to. The fall of the ussr changed everything for communist countries, they had no choice but to open up or they’ll be stuck. Ex: see North Korea. All of these was outside of their control. China was smart for collecting the means of production from capitalist countries because they are very greedy for cheap labour. Then now they are using those productive capital to build themselves up. If you want to compare capitalism and communism. Just look at India vs China. They both started the same way but ended drastically differently.

You cannot pull communism without a very effective stalin like dictatorship. You need Sani Abacha to shoot people so they can cooperate.

Your ideal of communism can be achieved through
1) Trade and worker unions - this is what Western Countries uses - to allow workers to negotiate fair deals against capital owners
2) Cooperative movements - this is what countries use to organize workers and small business to also achieve that negotiating power.
3) Welfare or social safety net - to cushion the poor.

As for central planning - if you have a dictatorship and you're homogenous country - go for it! You may succeed like USSR. Hilter also succeeded. Dictators manage to get people working for common goal through fear of death and torture.

If not - then allow private sector to work it's magic - and focus on delivering basic infrastructure.

If you're a democracy - encourage formation of trade/workers union, cooperative movement and investment in social safety nets or welfare.

Hueman:
Your first mistake is thinking we should learn from western Europe. These are countries that grew their wealth from colonialism, imperialism and holding us back. There’s nothing to learn from them. Without us they’ll be living in poverty. China got to were it is with a planned economy. They became a super power without all these harmful things the west did. They industrialize really quickly without holding back the development of the rest of the world. You know who also did this The ussr. These are the people Africans need to learn from. From my definition you can see how saying we should mix socialism and capitalism is an oxymoron. What you just described you wanted was capitalism with a welfare state. And that’s still not a good thing, because workers are still not free. Workers are still exploited under these system. The system is built on imperialism which continues to harm us since we come from the global south. Fun fact: those Norwegian countries have a state owned oil company that are part of the people destroying the Niger delta. Their wealth and social services is built on imperialism. They have to destroy our environment so they can afford these stuff. That’s the truth they never tell you. Socialism are co-op with a little extra step. So you being against Marxist theory but want Co-op is kinda funny.

Oh dear oh dear. this kenya boy needs to get his head examined asap Nkrumah is a hero in Ghana. Can you say the same for arap Moi or kenyatta? kenya is a monumental failure. Tweeeaaaaaaaa Who will take a country whose population is starving seriously?

[s]

rvp2018:
Import substitution was tried all over Africa in 1960s - the same period Kwame was on it - they are all failed. South Asian tigers refused to heed such advice and went for export led manufacturing - and they succeeded.

Kwame communism led to Ghana economic collapse and his subsequent overthrow. The rest are just attempt to rewrite history. Kwame was an epic failure in managing Ghana economy.

Indeed, Ghana experienced reasonably high growth soon thereafter, but by 1965 per capita growth was already negative, and when the coup d’état overthrew the Nkrumah regime in February 1966, per capita income was below its value at the time of independence

[/s]