₦airaland Forum

ProfAmaben:
Just shut up man, how's your life going? Have you built a house yet or finished school? People should be allowed to practice what they like, you're inconsequential in the grand scheme of things.

DemMannaScam:
Practice whatever you like, it changes nothing...

Demonic amaben,
Useless, fake, wretched, miserable, depressed prof
Nothing changes, ur USELESS & ACCURSED mama remains cursed!!!!!!!!!

CURSED TO DEATH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Take it to the bank...

ProfAmaben:
Is that all? Do more, you'll die a bastard if you stop

ProfAmaben:
Worthless Amaben, filthy pig The whorre u call mama is CURSED TO DEATH!!! Nothing changes...

Take it to the bank...

ProfAmaben:
Nothing changes. ProfAmaben ur useless mama remains cursed to death. Wretched Amaben u neva even see anything. Take it to the bank...

WretchedAmaben:
Nothing changes wretched amaben. Your USELESS mama remains cursed to death. Fool take it to the bank

WretchedAmaben:
Nothing changes wretched amaben. Ur USELESS mama remains cursed. That old whorre is CURSED TO DEATH! Fool take it to the bank

DeepSight:
Pr0ton, thank you for taking the time to give a detailed and reasoned response. Many are so flippant in discussions concerning these serious existential matters these days, that it is always refreshing when one comes across a person who accords such discourses the seriousness they deserve.



Fair enough, and most appreciated.



My dear friend, I doubt that we little human beings are in any position to draw this line with respect to what we can or should be agnostic on. The mere twin facts of our own existence and the size of the universe are enough to strike us with silent wonder with respect to what else or who else may be out there. Most cosmological scientists these days believe that given the size of the universe and the abundant presence of carbon therein, it is extremely unlikely that we are the only life - intelligent or otherwise - in the universe. And if we can hold out that possibility, it is not unreasonable to fall into even greater and more silent wonder when faced with the question as to what may exist beyond our universe. There is no reason for you to peremptorily foreclose or delimit the conversation in that regard, and you are too limited - too vastly limited to decree that no one may reasonably envisage the subject of the existence of God or gods.

I can only grant that you may reasonably reject the existence of the sort of God or gods described by religions - some of which can be shown to be ontologically inconsistent and therefore either impossible or improbable. But as I pointed out to you earlier, many people have different perceptions of "God" or "gods" - and you would be wise therefore not to generalize in this matter. There are so many different persuasions on the matter that in fact you simply cannot reasonably generalize. Where do you want to place the Deist? The Pantheist? The Panentheist? The Autotheist? The Dystheist? The Maltheist?

To put this in context I am forced to repeat myself with respect to the size of the universe: Imagine a grain of sand. Just a single grain of sand at the beach. Imagine that within that grain of sand a solar system exists and in that solar system a planet exists and on that planet, 7 billion people dwell. Now none of these 7 billion people have ever stepped out of this grain of sand and not only do they make presumptions as to what may exist at the other end of the beach, they are so bold as to "draw the line" with respect to the existence of beings on other continents far away from that beach, and even other worlds outside the planet on which that beach is situated, the beach where that grain of sand is.

This only represents a faint clue as to what you are doing by presumptuously "drawing line(s)" against the existence of this or that beyond our universe. When you consider it carefully it must become out-rightly ridiculous even in your own sight that you do so.



Sincerely, I personally have no idea as to the consciousness of God or gods - I only know that it is a matter well above our pay grade. My private philosophy regarding the existence of God has become a little complex: and perhaps this is not the place to delve into it properly as it is bound to raise too many complex, mysterious and puzzling questions.

Nevertheless I cannot imagine that you are in a position to insist that all definitions of God require the factor of consciousness (and in this I trust you refer to the sense of a self-conscious personality). I can conceive of, and I certainly know of many theistic persuasions that do not quite see "God" this way - some perceiving "IT" more as a neutral all-pervading force. Nor does this mean they are dis-entitled to the application of the word "God" - as the principal common factor for the definition of "God" is its role as the origin, and to a lesser extent, sustainer, of all things.



What is wrong with the possibility of spirituality? What does spirituality mean to you?
For me, the spiritual is inevitably real.



You have a point here, and to be honest, I had feared you would bring it up. I had held back my more thorough view on this subject, on account of my fear that it would muddy the waters before we even understand one another. However, as you have been astute enough to point this out, I will take the plunge.

In truth, when I use the words "time and space" here, I have only used them in the way materialists and scientists like to use them. I have used them simply in a casual and convenient way. However if you go through my posts on this forum spanning a decade, you will see that I do not believe in this type of materialistic time and space. However, for the sake of clarity, and on account of the limitations of language, let us call this type of materialistic/ scientific time and space "finite time" and "finite space". And let us say that our words above refer to this finite time and finite space.

Because in truth, I believe in infinite time and infinite space - both of which are self-existent and cannot be created, cannot "start" - cannot "begin" - cannot "end" - cannot "expand" and so forth. This self-existent infinite time and space, in my worldview, are components of what I call God. Indeed, this is a good juncture at which to tell you that I have once described "God" as I see IT, on this forum, as "the sum of all self-existent laws."

Therefore again, please be wary of generalizing and drawing lines on what people may perceive of as "God."

Moving back to your point - it is in that infinite time and space, which transcends our finite realm, that I assert there remains the open possibility of causes which transcend our realm.



Putting religious fantasies aside, the pure concept of God as an eternal source-point of existence also has both philosophical and logical credence.



So long as the vacuum is not a perfect vacuum, it is presumptuous to say that virtual particles have no cause. Indeed the only reason they refer to a quantum vacuum is in a bid to demonstrate that something can emerge from nothing - which fails straightaway, because the alleged quantum vacuum, as we have agreed, is not "nothing" or empty either. It is absurd to observe anything whatsoever emerging from something else and conclude that it is causeless. The very fact that it emerges from something else is enough to strike that thought away - even if the particulars - the specific scientific details - as to how it emerges remain unknown!

Now when you add to this the fact that virtual particles are not in fact a "thing" per se - but only a transient quantum fluctuation - then this line of reasoning must be put firmly away from discussions about causality. Because once we acknowledge that such alleged quantum vacuums are not "empty" then it becomes both mischievous and duplicitous to use fluctuations therein as proof that causality is not required in order to instigate movement. Those alleged vacuums contain low gaseous pressure, and thus a (very rough) example would be to say that this is like alleging that ripples in the wind are causeless, if one does not know how such ripples come about.

This is cast iron logic, and this will not change no matter how many scientists swoon over the false idea that virtual particles disprove causality.



Good. Hence my recommendation of agnosticism as wise and honest.

Ammishaddai:
Keep dreaming . The average Nigerian is religious so it's only God that knows where you got this figure from .

Pr0ton:
You have made valid points and I agree with almost everything you have pointed out. If this is what agnosticism is defined as then it is rational. My original objection was with holding uncertainty about whether the gods of known religions exist, as that has been what most agnostics I have met seem to argue for. I understand your God word simply means originator of all things and which can be interchanged with any other related term. This is also my position, that is, the truth about the origin of the universe is not known yet and may not be knowable. Including whether or not there exists a force that created everything.

I think the term that describes our position is what is called agnostic atheism.

If it means anything to you, Merry Christmas.

Sladem05:
The youth are extremely westernised

HellVictorinho6:
The universe doesnt exist

There is no EVERYTHING

DeepSight contradicts himself here


I agree with him that WHERE/WHEN 2 exist is infinite

But you cant still be talking of an everything

cuz an everything nullifies the sort of infinity we re talking about


an everything must av a sum but an infinity with no beginning nor end cannot av a sum

there4 we dont av 2 seek the beginning or the nature of the beginning of such infinity


cuz it has no beginning


how do i know?

i know cuz my understanding of ur failure 2 prove the universe is different from a failure 2 understand how you prove it which is not the case

how can u say anything proves it when u av unknowns about itz origin?


u claim 2 av an understanding but thatz only bcuz u think those unknowns are not a big deal....like wat if the unknowns? wat if they cant be known by u?

but thatz u

i find such unknowns 2 be the consequences of contradictions in ur definitions of the universe



physics doesnt need the universe 2 be included in itz study

INSTEAD OF SAYING ALL MATTER ,ALL TIME,


WHY NOT MATTER ,TIME?

DeepSight:
What brought you back to my ancient cogitations.

HellVictorinho6:
poverty makes me seem ordinary

but am a thinker/philosopher

RealityKings:
Sapa Philosophy

HellVictorinho6:
poverty makes me seem ordinary


but am a thinker/philosopher

DeepSight:
That's obvious. Take proactive steps positively.

HellVictorinho6:
The salary aint it at all


But beta jobs aint available


Learning a trade/handwork requires some stability which i cant afford


Thatz the reality


But myopic beings call it MERE EXCUSES

Honchoslim16:
Opor

HellVictorinho6:
the west is not full of atheists


the youth here are mostly religious

Newton85:
What "concept if religion" in Britain, Germany, Norway, Denmark, Sweden, Finland, Netherlands is transforming them to atheists?

Sladem05:
Unsourced BS

And yes the west is already highly secularised. Western Europe is predominantly atheistic. USA, Canada, Australia are following suit.

Yes African youth are less religious compared to their elders. Something that people don’t realise is that these Abrahamic religions will one day become extinct, religions are essentially modern day mythologies.

HellVictorinho6:
i said not full , are u crazy!


not full

wetin concern that one with ya sourced sewage?


and who dey folo u compare youths with elders?


see whos even speaking 4 youths


be careful

Sladem05:
Because the youth are the future and they are less religious. Give it another 60-80 years Religion will see a massive decline in Africa too.

HellVictorinho6:
Yeah, those YOU refer 2 as less religious.

Repetition is not evidence.

Sladem05:
https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2018/06/13/young-adults-around-the-world-are-less-religious-by-several-measures/

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-33256561.amp

Hate them as much as you want but atheists are going to rule this world at some point.

HellVictorinho6:
Are u mad

DeepSight



Warn dis bast@rd