₦airaland Forum

sonmvayina:
When did Isaiah make this prophecy?

Don't quote 53...because everyone know the suffering servant is Israel ..

Israel is not the suffering servant
Unlike the suffering servants that bear the sins of others Israel was punished for her sins not for others

Isaiah 42:24 Who gave Jacob for a spoil, and Israel to the robbers? did not the LORD, he against whom we have sinned? for they would not walk in his ways, neither were they obedient unto his law.

Isaiah 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

The suffering servants was bruised for Israel's sin.
Therefore the righteous servant is not Israel.

Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.


Jeremiah 50:6 My people hath been lost sheep: their shepherds have caused them to go astray, they have turned them away on the mountains: they have gone from mountain to hill, they have forgotten their restingplace.


Israel is the sheep that have gone astray while the righteous servants bear their sin.

So the question remains, who us this righteous servant?

sonmvayina:
Jesus dying for sin is in the realm of Lucifer..

It has got nothing to do with God.

God already gave the solution to the problem of sin in the Tanakh. 2nd chronicles 7:14..

God hates human sacrifice.it is an abomination.

Why did God lay the sin of Israel on the suffering servant?
If the solution was already given, why were animals used for sacrifice continously?


Why did God promise to make a new covenant if the first one was the solution?
Jeremiah 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

Note the new Covenant according to yahweh would be different.

Steep:
Why are you running away? Then who is the servant of God who became the sacrifice for sin if not Jesus?

Everything God created are his servants particularly humans, spirits and Angels.

No servant of God came to die.

John 3:16 did not call him a servant!

Jesus is the second God of your Godhead trinity! If he's a servant then Holy spirit is also a servant and only the father is the master.

So why would the father associate two servants with himself in his godhead lordship? This makes no sense!

AntiChristian:
Okay, Edited.

Edit yours too!

Too late.

AntiChristian:
Everything God created are his servants particularly humans, spirits and Angels.

No servant of God came to die.

John 3:16 did not call him a servant!

Jesus is the second God of your Godhead trinity! If he's a servant then Holy spirit is also a servant and only the father is the master.

So why would the father associate two servants with himself in his godhead lordship? This makes no sense!

Christianity should be a mirror for you to see that there a lot of things in your own religion, Islam, that doesn't also makes sense.

Both religion are the same. The only difference is what is contained in the different religious text.

If Muslims were using the Bible, you would be defending what's contained in it and arguing as you're doing now, that God sacrificing his son makes sense.

You wouldn't see anything wrong in it just as wouldn't see anything wrong in an angel dictating the Koran to Muhammad. You accept without any evidence that it actually happened.

Each time you come up with a thread like this, I always ask myself why can't this man see that he his making a mockery of the same thing he is doing.
Christianity and Islam are abrahamic religions: the same thing but different narratives.

AntiChristian:
Everything God created are his servants particularly humans, spirits and Angels.

No servant of God came to die.

John 3:16 did not call him a servant!

Jesus is the second God of your Godhead trinity! If he's a servant then Holy spirit is also a servant and only the father is the master.

So why would the father associate two servants with himself in his godhead lordship? This makes no sense!

Answer the question and stop deflecting. Book of Isaiah is not injeel and so is not corrupt, so answer me who is the servant that became a sacrifice for sin, it is clearly written

Steep:
Answer the question and stop deflecting. Book of Isaiah is not injeel and so is not corrupt, so answer me who is the servant that became a sacrifice for sin, it is clearly written

So Jesus is no longer God's son and God himself but now God's SERVANT?

So, Jesus is God, Son of God and Servant of God? And what again?

Steep:
Answer the question and stop deflecting. Book of Isaiah is not injeel and so is not corrupt, so answer me who is the servant that became a sacrifice for sin, it is clearly written

Which question? No servant ever died to save people except some babalawo rituals we hear nowadays!

Book of Isaiah is even worse than the corrupted injeel.

No servant ever became sacrifice for sin!

Sin needs repentance not blood sacrifice like babalawo!

triplechoice:
Christianity should be a mirror for you to see that there a lot of things in your own religion, Islam, that doesn't also makes sense.

Both religion are the same. The only difference is what is contained in the different religious text.

If Muslims were using the Bible, you would be defending what's contained in it and arguing as you're doing now, that God sacrificing his son makes sense.

You wouldn't see anything wrong in it just as wouldn't see anything wrong in an angel dictating the Koran to Muhammad. You accept without any evidence that it actually happened.

Each time you come up with a thread like this, I always ask myself why can't this man see that he his making a mockery of the same thing he is doing.
Christianity and Islam are abrahamic religions: the same thing but different narratives.

This is ignorance at it's peak!

There are over a hundred if not thousands differences between Christianity and Islam but you are blind to it due to ignorance!

They are not the same thing under different narratives!

Christians don't believe in Muhammad (salallahu alayhi wasalam) and their beliefs in the son of Mary is much different from ours!

Steep:
Why did God lay the sin of Israel on the suffering servant?
If the solution was already given, why were animals used for sacrifice continously?


Why did God promise to make a new covenant if the first one was the solution?
Jeremiah 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

Note the new Covenant according to yahweh would be different.

First and foremost the suffering servant is Jacob/Israel..not jesus..Isaiah already told you 8 times prior to 53 like in Isaiah 41:1-9 and 45:1-9.

Secondly the new convenient is a renewal of the only convenant...God will write the laws in their heart and not on paper so that it becomes easy to keep.

Read them again..

Steep:
Israel is not the suffering servant
Unlike the suffering servants that bear the sins of others Israel was punished for her sins not for others

Isaiah 42:24 Who gave Jacob for a spoil, and Israel to the robbers? did not the LORD, he against whom we have sinned? for they would not walk in his ways, neither were they obedient unto his law.

Isaiah 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

The suffering servants was bruised for Israel's sin.
Therefore the righteous servant is not Israel.

Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.


Jeremiah 50:6 My people hath been lost sheep: their shepherds have caused them to go astray, they have turned them away on the mountains: they have gone from mountain to hill, they have forgotten their restingplace.


Israel is the sheep that have gone astray while the righteous servants bear their sin.

So the question remains, who us this righteous servant?

Don't pick verses in isolation. Read them together. ..and for your information Isaiah never said for ...but from ..
He was wonder from our transgressions...

It is the kings of the earth that is talking when they realise that Israel was right all along..

Read again, this time start from 52:12

AntiChristian:
This is ignorance at it's peak!

There are over a hundred if not thousands differences between Christianity and Islam but you are blind to it due to ignorance!

They are not the same thing under different narratives!

Christians don't believe in Muhammad (salallahu alayhi wasalam) and their beliefs in the son of Mary is much different from ours!

The same in the sense that you believe what your rellgion tells you is the truth.

Why should Christians believe in Muhammad when it's not part of the things they're told to believe?

Both Muslims and Christians are believers.

triplechoice:
The same in the sense that you believe what your rellgion tells you is the truth.

Why should Christians believe in Muhammad when it's not part of the things they're told to believe?

Both Muslims and Christians are believers.

And those who don't believe in anything still find something to believe in according to their whims!

How is that same?

AntiChristian:
And those who don't believe in anything still find something to believe in according to their whims!

How is that same?

This has no bearing on the discussion at hand. You want to deflect.

I said, both you and the Christians you mock are doing the same thing: believing what your rellgion has made you to believe and it doesn't matter what it's. What matters is that you believe something.

Or you want to argue that an angel dictating the Koran to Muhammad actually happened?

triplechoice:
This has no bearing on the discussion at hand. You want to deflect.

I said, both you and the Christians you mock are doing the same thing: believing what your rellgion has made you to believe and it doesn't matter what it's. What matters is that you believe something.

Or you want to argue that an angel dictating the Koran to Muhammad actually happened?

Of course it actually did happen!

AntiChristian:
Of course it actually did happen!

How do we confirm that an angel spoke to Muhammed?

triplechoice:
How do we confirm that an angel spoke to Muhammed?

Same way you can't confirm that you have a brain in your skull!

The messages he received then was unprecedented and unknown. He was even unlettered!

AntiChristian:
Same way you can't confirm that you have a brain in your skull!

The messages he received then was unprecedented and unknown. He was even unlettered!

In this time and age, you don't even know that with an head CT scan and other devices, you can actually confirm if YOU have any brain to think in your skull!!!

I can now see why you're gullible enough to believe that account.

The messages and the fact that he was unlettered is not enough confirmation an angel spoke to him.

Muhammad was not the only unlettered prophet or religious figure in the past who inspired a religion. So, why was his own special?

The people who created your rellgion have told you that so you can believe what is contained in the Koran.


You have no way of knowing an angel spoke to Muhammad.

You have spoken as a believer and I understand.

triplechoice:
In this time and age, you don't even know that with an head CT scan and other devices, you can actually confirm if YOU have any brain to think in your skull!!!

I can now see why you're gullible enough to believe that account.

The messages and the fact that he was unlettered is not enough confirmation an angel spoke to him.

Muhammad was not the only unlettered prophet or religious figure in the past who inspired a religion. So, why was his own special?

The people who created your rellgion have told you that so you can believe what is contained in the Koran.


You have no way of knowing an angel spoke to Muhammad.

You have spoken as a believer and I understand.

Of course a scan would capture your human body nowadays! So which camera exists back then to record Angels?

And Qu'ran is a miracle in itself. It can't be recited by a human unlettered in just about 23 years!

Stop the comparison between Islam and Christianity! They ain't similar.

AntiChristian:
Which question? No servant ever died to save people except some babalawo rituals we hear nowadays!

Book of Isaiah is even worse than the corrupted injeel.

No servant ever became sacrifice for sin!

Sin needs repentance not blood sacrifice like babalawo!

Where is it written in the Koran that book of Isaiah is corrupted?

Lukuluku69:
So Jesus is no longer God's son and God himself but now God's SERVANT?

So, Jesus is God, Son of God and Servant of God? And what again?

you can attempt the question.

Steep:
you can attempt the question.

What question bros?

If you mean a "dying" servant for sins? That one is not a question but a conjecture. No one dies for anybody's sin. My sins are on me and yours on you. No one bears another's burden.

So say the Bible, The Quran and many other Religious Text of the World.

And if you are going to quote Isaiah, please not that that book has been in the hands of the Jews for Centuries in fact some 1,400 years before the alleged crucifixion of Jesus. Their reading doesn't say any Servant will die for anyone.

And if I missed your question, please amuse me by repeating it in my mention Sir!

AntiChristian:
Of course a scan would capture your human body nowadays! So which camera exists back then to record Angels?

And Qu'ran is a miracle in itself. It can't be recited by a human unlettered in just about 23 years!

Stop the comparison between Islam and Christianity! They ain't similar.

So the reason we should accept the Quran as true, is because no camera to record the event between Muhammad and the Angel?

I hope you are aware you're not talking to the sheepees in your mosque or wherever you usually gather. Those ones don't question anything you tell them.

Can you use this same argument to defend anything in a law Court ?
That the reason a judge should accept your testimony as true , without any witness or evidence to corroborate it, is because no camera to record it ,and expect to receive a favourable judgement?

Muhammad just didn't recite the Quran for straight 23 years on his own. Instead it was believed, an angel kept appearing to him intermittently for 23 years and yet ,not for once was there a single witness to confirm what transpired.

Oh! ,things only a believer can believe.

The comparison I have made of both rellgion is correct. They're from the same source; Abrahamic , but with different set of beliefs the adherents have been indoctrinated to accept as true.

And that's why you ,for instance, believe the Quran is true because you have been made to accept without questioning that an unlettered Muhammad got it from an angel, whereas it wouldn't have made any difference if he was lettered. I believe you have never for once considered this.

Would you have rejected the Quran if Muhammad was lettered? Certainly not.

Muhammad ,from what we are told ,was unable to pen down the Koran because he was unlettered and that it was some scribes who helped him .

But that was a lie. It was Muhammad who probably got inspiration for some parts of the Koran through personal reflections in the cave (that's, if it was true he was in any such cave) in conjunction with the scribes, who borrowed extensively from other sources, that were responsible for your Koran. No angel was involved.

The lie of an angel was to make you accept it as divinely inspired. Every rellgion with a religious text have used the same method of divine inspiration from an angel or God.

Go and investigate them and your eyes would be open.

sonmvayina:
First and foremost the suffering servant is Jacob/Israel..not jesus..Isaiah already told you 8 times prior to 53 like in Isaiah 41:1-9 and 45:1-9.

Isaiah 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
Simple question,
The righteous servant was stricken for the sin of God's people,
Who are God's people? Was it not Israel?
If Israel is God's people then they can not be the suffering servant,

According to Isaiah Israel has violence in her hands.

Isaiah 59:6 Their webs shall not become garments, neither shall they cover themselves with their works: their works are works of iniquity, and the act of violence is in their hands.

Even Jeremy confirmed it.

Jeremiah 6:6 For thus hath the LORD of hosts said, Hew ye down trees, and cast a mount against Jerusalem: this is the city to be visited; she is wholly oppression in the midst of her.

6:7 As a fountain casteth out her waters, so she casteth out her wickedness: violence and spoil is heard in her; before me continually is grief and wounds.

However, unlike Israel ,the righteous servant had no violence.

Isaiah 53:9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

From this it is clear that Israel is not the suffering servant

Secondly the new convenient is a renewal of the only convenant...God will write the laws in their heart and not on paper so that it becomes easy to keep.

Read them again..

There is no renewal of the old,
Yahweh said the new one would not be like the old one.
So this covenant is not according to the Old one.

Jeremiah 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

Lukuluku69:
What question bros?

If you mean a "dying" servant for sins? That one is not a question but a conjecture. No one dies for anybody's sin. My sins are on me and yours on you. No one bears another's burden.

So say the Bible, The Quran and many other Religious Text of the World.

And if you are going to quote Isaiah, please not that that book has been in the hands of the Jews for Centuries in fact some 1,400 years before the alleged crucifixion of Jesus. Their reading doesn't say any Servant will die for anyone.

And if I missed your question, please amuse me by repeating it in my mention Sir!

I thought you believe in all the prophet of God, Isaiah is one of them.

So how come Mohammed denied the words of other prophet that came before him?

sonmvayina:
Don't pick verses in isolation. Read them together. ..and for your information Isaiah never said for ...but from ..
He was wonder from our transgressions...

It is the kings of the earth that is talking when they realise that Israel was right all along..

Read again, this time start from 52:12

No, I am not reading in Isolation, the kings of the earth are not God's people, it is Israel that are God's people.

Jeremiah 31:1 At the same time, saith the LORD, will I be the God of all the families of Israel, and they shall be my people.

Isaiah 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

God never punished Israel for the sake of other nations.

Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Lamentations 4:6 For the punishment of the iniquity of the daughter of my people is greater than the punishment of the sin of Sodom, that was overthrown as in a moment, and no hands stayed on her.

Steep:
I thought you believe in all the prophet of God, Isaiah is one of them.

So how come Mohammed denied the words of other prophet that came before him?

As a Muslim, it is matter of Belief in ALL Prophet of God irrespective of their home Nation. From Hindu Cush, from Elam, from Judea, Samaria, Hadhramaut, Arabia, Ethiopia, Africa, Khatamandu or anywhere on this planet. I believe them ALL.

Yes I believe Isaiah in fact if. You go thru my posts, I would say he is the most quoted Israelite prophet by my humble self.

But in all I have never seen where Isaiah mentioned that a Certain Jesus will come and die for people's sins. Never!

Lukuluku69:
As a Muslim, it is matter of Belief in ALL Prophet of God irrespective of their home Nation. From Hindu Cush, from Elam, from Judea, Samaria, Hadhramaut, Arabia, Ethiopia, Africa, Khatamandu or anywhere on this planet. I believe them ALL.

Yes I believe Isaiah in fact if. You go thru my posts, I would say he is the most quoted Israelite prophet by my humble self.

But in all I have never seen where Isaiah mentioned that a Certain Jesus will come and die for people's sins. Never!

@ really believe in the prophet Isaiah tell me, who is the righteous servant that bear the sin of God's people. Isaiah 53, I have not mentioned Jesus have I, tell me who is the servant it is very simple.

Steep:
Isaiah 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
Simple question,
The righteous servant was stricken for the sin of God's people,
Who are God's people? Was it not Israel?
If Israel is God's people then they can not be the suffering servant,

According to Isaiah Israel has violence in her hands.

Isaiah 59:6 Their webs shall not become garments, neither shall they cover themselves with their works: their works are works of iniquity, and the act of violence is in their hands.

Even Jeremy confirmed it.

Jeremiah 6:6 For thus hath the LORD of hosts said, Hew ye down trees, and cast a mount against Jerusalem: this is the city to be visited; she is wholly oppression in the midst of her.

6:7 As a fountain casteth out her waters, so she casteth out her wickedness: violence and spoil is heard in her; before me continually is grief and wounds.

However, unlike Israel ,the righteous servant had no violence.

Isaiah 53:9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

From this it is clear that Israel is not the suffering servant



There is no renewal of the old,
Yahweh said the new one would not be like the old one.
So this covenant is not according to the Old one.

Jeremiah 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

Read it in context...you are still reading in isolation..

Steep:
@ really believe in the prophet Isaiah tell me, who is the righteous servant that bear the sin of God's people. Isaiah 53, I have not mentioned Jesus have I, tell me who is the servant it is very simple.

If I remember clearly, the Book of Isaiah has 66 Chapters. I would rather take the message as a whole rather than make a Religion out or one or two verses from the book.

Jesus according to the Christian creed was never a Servant of God rather God Himself or the Son of God. So why are you applying a prophecy that mentioned a SERVANT? Do you thing that is logical? I think not.


And you don't have to mention Jesus for I know that is where you are going!

Besides, "wounding" someone is not akin to killing them. And I am sure that Isaiah knows the difference.

So, the servant in Isaiah could not have been Jesus. And if you say he is Immanuel, then I ask you to show me in the New Testament where Jesus was called as such just once or where it was alluded to that fact.

Steep:
@ really believe in the prophet Isaiah tell me, who is the righteous servant that bear the sin of God's people. Isaiah 53, I have not mentioned Jesus have I, tell me who is the servant it is very simple.

Educate yourself

https://aish.com/isaiah_53_the_suffering_servant/


https://aish.com/jeremiah-31-and-the-new-covenant/

sonmvayina:
Read it in context...you are still reading in isolation..

Do you know what is context? I didn't read in isolation I showed you others verse that reinforced that the context of Isaiah 53 is not Israel.