₦airaland Forum

andrewbaba44:
Ronaldo fans

Omo! Wetin be this??

How can you say someone single handedly won a World Cup in a sport of 11 players

Even basketball wey only 5 people dey court it's still a very ridiculous statement to make never mind football

Joezinho:

It’s always been Ronaldo against the world!!!

The media have never hidden their anti Ronaldo agenda tbh

Phraser:
"Deliberately foolish." No need for puerile ad hominems. Relax.

Messi is not the GOAT because he won the World Cup (he still would be the GOAT even if he hadn't won it on Sunday). My argument for why Messi is the better/greater player (than Pele) is he has more longevity, is the more complete player, has better technique, and because he played and thrived in a more modern and difficult era (against players with better technique and athleticism than those Pele faced). Bonus: he has more flair and his play style is more pretty to look at.

There is now far more money in the game, unlike in Pele's era, meaning there's not much separating traditional football powerhouses from the small fish. It's why countries like Croatia, Morocco, Iceland and Saudi Arabia can now be expected to do well even against teams like Germany and Brazil. There have also been innovations in diet, sports science and technology—meaning players are stronger and faster—and tactical systems have evolved and become far more complex than they were in the 50s and 60s. There's a reason the names of many defenders from that era aren't a staple in the modern imagination. I would like to think that speaks to the middling quality of defenders and defending generally in that era—so unimpressive that not many of their names survived into the modern era.

Pele was a great footballer, but Messi did it in a more difficult and sophisticated era.

You are being deliberately foolish claiming a player with 3 World Cups, 12 non penalty goals, 10 assists in 14 games has no argument against a player with 8 non penalty goals and 8 assists in 25 games

First, put to bed this non-penalty goals strawman. Penalties are a part of the game, are they not? Did you play football in your youth or for a community club? If you did, you will know scoring a penalty demands great skill and mental toughness from a player, perhaps even more than an open play goal in some cases. Which do you think came with more pressure/stress and was more likely to have turned the momentum against Argentina in Sunday's game had either of the players not scored it: Di Maria's shot that produced Argentina's second goal or Messi's shot from the penalty spot? Anyone with the smallest football knowledge knows that the penalty kick was wracked with more tension.

So Messi should have turned down the chance to play the penalties Argentina got? Such primary school logic. I guess Harry Kane deliberately missed his against France, since penalties are so easy and not worthy of being counted as goals.

As I hinted earlier, using team trophies is not a sound way to gauge a player's football ability, for the simple reason that there are many averagely talented footballers with a World Cup and many Champions League titles to their name. It simply is the case of being in the right team at the right time, or in Pele's case, being born in the right country at the right time—would he have won 1, not to talk of 3 World Cups, if he had been born in Yugoslavia and did not play in a Brazil superteam? You are basically premising Pele's football greatness and ability on geographical happenstance. How clever is that.

Football is a team sport—it's lazy reasoning to conclude that more trophies equals better ability. In which case, Dani Alves must be a greater and better footballer than Pele since he's won more trophies than him.

While you are at it, please throw away that Pele has 7 Ballon d'Ors argument. He did not win it during his career and no one cares about whatever hindsight analysis France Football has done. History is never a linear path—no one can say for sure that he would have won that many Ballon d'Ors during his career had it also been awarded to non-Europeans. As talented as Mbappe is, he still hasn't won one at 24.

This is another gibberish laden with prejudice.

Messi a left footed player more complete than Pele who is two footed!?

You are trying hard to sound intelligent but to be honest, you're not. To simply put it. You're an ignoramus.

A40:
Lol Messi fans need to accept that not everyone is ever going to admit he's the GOAT.

Personally I would have never agreed but the World Cup changed that. Had he not won the World Cup omo I will dispute it to the death but since that didn't happen the defense has rested. Trophy and hardware is the only language I listen to

Just understand that if there are people that don't think Jordan is the GOAT of basketball then there will always be people that don't think Messi is the GOAT of football either. And it's a pointless exercise to keep arguing

Let him come and play in England sign for man Utd and lets see how well he will perform
If Ronaldo is in that Argentina team he would have wan the World Cup years ago cr7 is still the GOAT

hensben:
Pele was carried to two wc win, he only did better in one.

Which one? I want to show you something.

hensben:
All these drama made Messi wc win memorable and defeated all the agenda of the the tournament being rigged for him. It’s our God not wonderful.

A rigged tournament that siezed kolo Muani legs from scoring the winner at the last minute

Ibime:
You are the one with jumbled logic

You are conflating greatness with the popularity of your generation

Do you think Messi popularity will be the same in 60 years. DK yo know how popular Maradona was 30 years ago, or do you think Diana Ross would still be dragging popularity with Beyonce in this day and age

In Peles days, he was the most popular footballer with no dispute. Messi disputed with Ronaldo his whole career. So what are you saying?

But your logic of gauging an individual's greatness with team trophies is sound?

Messi will not be as popular when he retires. But many years from now, his solo goal against Getafe will remain a cultural meme, as will Maradona's goal against England from 36 years ago. Which of Pele's goals has dominated the popular imagination in that way? Answer: none.

Phraser:
So there are more of Pele's clips than those of Ronaldo and Messi online?

Was that what you claimed?

Phraser:
You didn't watch Pele play live, neither did you see him play in many games. What you rely on are "many Pele documentaries" and statistics (which is hardly a reliable way of gauging a footballer's ability), meaning you have no true first-hand empirical knowledge about his ability, and yet you are fully convinced he is the greatest footballer of all time?

Doesn't seem like sound reasoning to me. (At any rate, you are in the minority. Most people choose Messi).

That aside, you said all the "euphoria" around Messi would die down in ten years time. I don't think any right-minded person believes that. Have you seen the man's digital footprint and cultural influence?

If anything, it's Pele's legacy that's at stake—maybe that's why he keeps tinkering with his records on his Instagram page, aware that the world is moving on. The likes of Messi and CR7 were lucky to have played in the social media era, and there are billions of clips of them online, unlike Pele whose legacy is solely hinged on word of mouth. 50 more years or so and no one would bother about a player that played in the black-and-white era.

Seems to me like Pele was your football hero growing up and you are stubbornly clinging to the past, because I have read your comments on this thread and have not seen any good arguments from you to back up your claims.

See the bolded and tell me you didn't lie.

Do you think you can hide or manipulate words?

hensben:
Thank you for this piece egbon.

Raumdeuter-
[b]Pele himself never singlehandedly win a world cup he was just part of the team.

In 1958 he was a 17yr old and Didi, Zagalo and Vava were greater than him in the Brazilian set up

In 1962 it was Garrinchas world cup with help from Zito and Vava. Only 2 players can be said to have won the world cup single handedly Garrincha 1962 and Maradona 1986

1970 was an all star team, Jaizinho, Carlos Alberto, Tostao, Gerson.

The Pele talk reminds me of old men in Nigeria who would always say "In the days of Odegbami and thunder Balogun" Football of those days are not technical at all, nothing like tactics, Its basically everybody enter the field. It was reported that the Brazilian team of 1982 even the keeper can dribble.

Pele na Bad belle dey worry am SIMPLE!!!! And anything pele says should be taken opposite

bullshit

hensben:
Omo cr7 just gather toxic people as fan. Lol

His house hold are toxic ,apart from his lovely kids and wives/baby mama

kind of scary how badly chelsea plays without James,the thought alone sends shiver to my spine, damn we need a back up as good as him not just any back up

Bluelines69:
So you’re just arguing against yourself at this point because you clearly said the old man should go and sit down with his 5km per game running era

But he gave you "indomie generation" clue on what to argue with yet you couldn't make use of the gift....wetin you no go read for internet.

Ballzproblem2:
everybody loves Messi ,Suarez , neymar, celebration for him are all genuine no faking,these guys know about the rivalry stuff going on forget they are keeping mum , Messi has assisted these players without grudge ,no how you will play around Messi you no chop assist tire ,I never see a player so selfless,that's why they're all Happy for him

You are spot on bro

Make we rest abeg.

forgiveness:
This is another gibberish laden with prejudice.

Messi a left footed player more complete than Pele who is two footed!?

You are trying hard to sound intelligent but to be honest, you're not. To simply put it. You're an ignoramus.

Complete player does not refer to a player who can score with his head, shoulders, knees and toes, Azonto (as the typical 12-year-old Redditor believes).

In football terms, it refers to a player who can play in multiple positions and can give you many things on the pitch: playmaking, scoring, etc.

oliverano:
Expert17, TLona1 make una come read something ooo

That egbon na clown.

Bluelines69:
So you’re just arguing against yourself at this point because you clearly said the old man should go and sit down with his 5km per game running era

Nope, it's not my job to boost your agenda, despite dropping clues that one of you can use to argue against Pele

The Brazilian State Championship is what you should have used to defeat Peles total career goals tally and hand that area of the argument to Messi, however Peles tallies in World Cup, Intercontinental Cup, COPA America and dominance over his peers on the World Stage still shyts on Messi handsomely emboldening his GOAT claim

I'm consistent in my dogma. I don't expect a player in the 1970s to enter a pitch with a player in the 1990s, nor a player in the 1990s to enter a pitch with a player in the 2010s because they operated under different spacial conditions due to the km players ran in each era (5km in 70s, 8km in the 90s and 10+km today) that's why I've maintained this is about how you performed in your era, not trying to time travel players into another era. You cant guess how a player from the 70s will perform today given the same physical training and sports science.

That's why I have been consistently saying this is about greatness against your peers. Raumdeuter knows my football dogma over how playing conditions changed with the km players run, that's why he subtly signposted you to that argument to throw hurdles in my argument, but it's consistent with my debates over the GOAT.

Ibime:
Your problem as above is that you want to conflate greatness with who was better

Who compares who is better over different eras with different sets of conditions?

Greatness is about how dominant you are over your peers and your achievements and stats and Pele is miles above Messi in that respect. I'm not interested in who is better which is a frankly foolish argument

Ibime:
The only thing you can say is players covered more km back in the day

Phraser:
"Deliberately foolish." No need for puerile ad hominems. Relax.

Messi is not the GOAT because he won the World Cup (he still would be the GOAT even if he hadn't won it on Sunday). My argument for why Messi is the better/greater player (than Pele) is because he has more longevity, is the more complete player, has better technique, and because he played and thrived in a more modern and difficult era (against players with better technique and athleticism than those Pele faced). Bonus: he has more flair and his play style is more pretty to look at.

There is now far more money in the game, unlike in Pele's era, meaning there's not much separating traditional football powerhouses from the small fish. It's why countries like Croatia, Morocco, Iceland and Saudi Arabia can now be expected to do well even against teams like Germany and Brazil. There have also been innovations in diet, sports science and technology—meaning players are stronger and faster—and tactical systems have evolved and become far more complex than they were in the 50s and 60s. There's a reason the names of many defenders from that era aren't a staple in the modern imagination. I would like to think that speaks to the middling quality of defenders and defending generally in that era—so unimpressive that not many of their names survived into the modern era.

Pele was a great footballer, but Messi did it in a more difficult and sophisticated era.

You are being deliberately foolish claiming a player with 3 World Cups, 12 non penalty goals, 10 assists in 14 games has no argument against a player with 8 non penalty goals and 8 assists in 25 games

First, put to bed this non-penalty goals strawman. Penalties are a part of the game, are they not? Did you play football in your youth or for a community club? If you did, you will know scoring a penalty demands great skill and mental toughness from a player, perhaps even more than an open play goal in some cases. Which do you think came with more pressure/stress and was more likely to have turned the momentum against Argentina in Sunday's game had either of the players not scored it: Di Maria's shot that produced Argentina's second goal or Messi's shot from the penalty spot? Anyone with the smallest football knowledge knows that the penalty kick was wracked with more tension.

So Messi should have turned down the chance to play the penalties Argentina got? Such primary school logic. I guess Harry Kane deliberately missed his against France, since penalties are so easy and not worthy of being counted as goals.

As I hinted earlier, using team trophies is not a sound way to gauge a player's football ability, for the simple reason that there are many averagely talented footballers with a World Cup and many Champions League titles to their name. It simply is the case of being in the right team at the right time, or in Pele's case, being born in the right country at the right time—would he have won 1, not to talk of 3 World Cups, if he had been born in Yugoslavia and did not play in a Brazil superteam? You are basically premising Pele's football greatness and ability on geographical happenstance. How clever is that.

Football is a team sport—it's lazy reasoning to conclude that more trophies equals better ability. In which case, Dani Alves must be a greater and better footballer than Pele since he's won more trophies than him.

While you are at it, please throw away that Pele has 7 Ballon d'Ors argument. He did not win it during his career and no one cares about whatever hindsight analysis France Football has done. History is never a linear path—no one can say for sure that he would have won that many Ballon d'Ors during his career had it also been awarded to non-Europeans. As talented as Mbappe is, he still hasn't won one at 24.

Unfortunately for you, Ballon'dOr is by vote and Pele won his by those who played in that ere and even won it. Stop spewing gibberish.

Nobody cares but you care and made noise out of it when Messi fraudulently won 7 Ballon'dOr, abi?

forgiveness:
This is another gibberish laden with prejudice.

Messi a left footed player more complete than Pele who is two footed!?

You are trying hard to sound intelligent but to be honest, you're not. To simply put it. You're an ignoramus.

You're the one sounding foolish...dembele is two footed, guess he's a more rounded player than Mbappe...What of Son and Kane, Perisic and modric nkor

hensben:
All these drama made Messi wc win memorable and defeated all the agenda of the tournament being rigged for him. Is our God not wonderful.

stop mentioning the name of god in vain. pagan

Phraser:
Complete player does not refer to a player who can score with his head, shoulders, knees and toes, Azonto (as the typical 12-year-old Redditor believes).

In football terms, it refers to a player who can play in multiple positions and can give you many things on the pitch: playmaking, scoring, etc.

That's why you are a novice in this discussion because if you're not, you would had known Pele played as playmaker, striker, ss etc.

Menh! Stop disgracing yourself in public.

hensben:
Whats the primary job of a CM? Does Croatia have more talent than Portugal? What stop your cr7 who is a goal machine from leading his team to final or semi?

I gave you two players that actually did the carrying with tangible evidence don't tell me about a man that scored 1 goal in 13 matches leading anything. That's disrespectful to the likes of Rebic, Mandzukic, Perisic that were doing the lifting

Portugal have underperformed too, especially in 2014, and to an extent 2018 but Ronaldo scored 4 of their 5 goals. And this is supposed to be a stacked Portugal team like you lot swear they are. And yet 1 man scored 80% of their goals

As for Croatia they won 4 penalty shootouts. How can you with a straight face tell me Modric did any leading with a team that won 4 penalty shootouts!! You guys should fear God

CAPdan21:
You're the one sounding foolish...dembele is two footed, guess he's a more rounded player than Mbappe...What of Son and Kane, Perisic and modric nkor

Is Mbappe a one legged player? I just pointed out one blemish your goat has. Dude is not as complete as Pele. Now, run along from my mention back to the cave.

Phraser:
But your logic of gauging an individual's greatness with team trophies is sound?

Messi will not be as popular when he retires. But many years from now, his solo goal against Getafe will remain a cultural meme, as will Maradona's goal against England from 36 years ago. Which of Pele's goals has dominated the popular imagination in that way? Answer: none.

When you write stuff like this you only show your ignorance

Pele was the first to dribble from his own box and score which went round the world

If I ask you to tell me about R9 similar goal against Compostela, can you?

Do you know of Saeed Al Owairan goal for Saudi Arabia against Belgium in 1994 where he dribbled the whole pitch, or do you know of George Weahs own?

Only speak within your breadth of knowledge and what your generation shares on Social Media, don't assume we didn't see things that our TVs popularised before social media

forgiveness:
Is Mbappe a one leggwd player? I just pointed to one blemish your goat has. Dude is not as complete as Pele. Now, run along my mention back to the cave.

So Messi is a one legged player??...if I ask you to provide the number of goals Pele the two legged player scored with his left foot na shalaye go end am...Lmao

A40:
How can you say someone single handedly won a World Cup in a sport of 11 players

Even basketball wey only 5 people dey court it's still a very ridiculous statement to make never mind football

Raumdeuter started the nonsense, knock his head.

CAPdan21:
So Messi is a one legged player??...if I ask you to provide the number of goals Pele the two legged player scored with his left foot na shalaye go end am...Lmao

Dude! Stop disgracing yourself. You can hardly tell his best foot because he scored different kinds of goals with both his legs.

He doesn't need to adjust his yanch like Messi to score with both foots.

Ibime:
When you write stuff like this you only show your ignorance

Pele was the first to dribble from his own box and score which went round the world

If I ask you to tell me about R9 similar goal against Compostela, can you?

Do you know of Saeed Al Owairan goal for Saudi Arabia against Belgium in 1994 where he dribbled the whole pitch, or do you know of George Weahs own?

Only speak within your breadth of knowledge and what your generation shares on Social Media, don't assume we didn't see things that our TVs popularised before social media

OG.

No fugazi

forgiveness:
Dude! Stop disgracing yourself. You can hardly tell his best foot because he scored different kinds of goals with both his legs.

He doesn't need to adjust his yanch like Messi to score with both foots.

Show the number of goals he scored with each foot or accept you're saying nonsense...Maybe Wikipedia can help you

A40:
I gave you two players that actually did the carrying with tangible evidence don't tell me about a man that scored 1 goal in 13 matches leading anything. That's disrespectful to the likes of Rebic, Mandzukic, Perisic that were doing the lifting

Portugal have underperformed too, especially in 2014, and to an extent 2018 but Ronaldo scored 4 of their 5 goals. And this is supposed to be a stacked Portugal team like you lot swear they are. And yet 1 man scored 80% of their goals

As for Croatia they won 4 penalty shootouts. How can you with a straight face tell me Modric did any leading with a team that won 4 penalty shootouts!! You guys should fear God

Modric was the best player of the tournament hence the works carried. Cr7 couldn’t lead his team to semi or final