₦airaland Forum

Baddestguyp:
It's only on this thread that someone isn't allowed to critique movies

Any critque about the plot or writing of a movie is suddenly met with insults rather than answers

The rule in John Wick is so ridiculous that a family can literally organize to wipe out multiple members of the High Table...wipe out a Marquis or Elder...

And walk away Scot free by challenging the present Marquis to a duel 😭😭😭


But apparently I'm not allowed to point this out because it's a crime to point out a ridiculous plot point in a movie I enjoyed

If i remember correctly, in part 3 he went to the elder in the desert to have the contract on his head, placed by the high table, pulled and the excommunicado lifted

In part 4, he killed the elder because he had refused to fulfill his oath to him (the elder) and the bounty on his head had increased. John thought he could free himself that way

Winston only mentioned the duel to him because, having killed the elder and being wanted dead by the High table, the only way out was the ancient rule

The duel itself inorder to work MUST be accepted, if it's refused, the way is shut

The way out was for the Marquis to be challenged because all 12 members of the High table had signed and delegated their authority to the Marquis. The Marquis had been assigned by the High table, to take out John Wick and all who aided him

The Ruska Roma isn't a random family, it's the group that raised and trained Wick. He was a member before he left them and his ticket was cut by them

Octopusssy:
Shaq!! 😂

i thought he was going to propose mouth to watermelon

IMEI:
If i remember correctly, in part 3 he went to the elder in the desert to have the contract on his head, placed by the high table, pulled and the excommunicado lifted

In part 4, he killed the elder because he had refused to fulfill his oath to him (the elder) and the bounty on his head had increased. John thought he could free himself that way

Winston only mentioned the duel to him because, having killed the elder and being wanted dead by the High table, the only way out was the ancient rule

The duel itself inorder to work MUST be accepted, if it's refused, the way is shut

The way out was for the Marquis to be challenged because all 12 members of the High table had signed and delegated their authority to the Marquis. The Marquis had been assigned by the High table, to take out John Wick and all who aided him

The Ruska Roma isn't a random family, it's the group that raised and trained Wick. He was a member before he left them and his ticket was cut by them

@ bolded...John knew killing the Elder would change nothing...

If I'm correct, the Marquis didn't have much of a choice. That's what Winston reminded him of...

If the Marquis could deny the duel easily, what was the point of accepting it then sending assassins to prevent John Wick from getting to the venue?

This means he had to accept the duel even if he didn't want to

Baddestguyp:
@ bolded...John knew killing the Elder would change nothing...

If I'm correct, the Marquis didn't have much of a choice. That's what Winston reminded him of...

If the Marquis could deny the duel easily, what was the point of accepting it then sending assassins to prevent John Wick from getting to the venue?

This means he had to accept the duel even if he didn't want to

Challenging the Marquis to a duel is not the issue.

The thing you should be thinking about is that "will the Challenger be alive to witness the day of the duel"

Remember nothing is stopping the Marquis from indirectly killing the Challenger before the duel.

You might think it's an easy way out because John Wick survived the whole ordeal.

If it was a random individual from a random family like you said, do you think such person would've survived given the resources at the disposal of the Marquis.

Remember it's the plot armour that kept John Alive and not how easy it was to challenge the Marquis and win.

If not for the arrogance of the Marquis, do you think John Wick would've won the duel

And He didn't kill the Elder because he was expecting his death to change anything. He killed the elder because the Elder refused to keep to his end of the bargain.

MetroLane:
Challenging the Marquis to a duel is not the issue.

The thing you should be thinking about is that "will the Challenger be alive to witness the day of the duel"

Remember nothing is stopping the Marquis from indirectly killing the Challenger before the duel.

You might think it's an easy way out because John Wick survived the whole ordeal.

If it was a random individual from a random family like you said, do you think such person would've survived given the resources at the disposal of the Marquis.

Remember it's the plot armour that kept John Alive and not how easy it was to challenge the Marquis and win.

If not for the arrogance of the Marquis, do you think John Wick would've won the duel

if you could refuse a duel, what was the point of accepting it only to try to stop him from making it to the venue?

Look at it this way....X joins Y family...commits crimes against the High Table and asks for a duel...

If the Marquis can refuse the duel and kill X, then why waste time in accepting it only to try to assassinate X from behind?

John Wick could have won the duel if he wanted to kill Caine. He purposely didn't shoot...

The duel being introduced as a way out of liability opens an entire "can of worms" on the lore and rules of the show
Many other characters could have also tried to escape liability with the duel

Baddestguyp:
if you could refuse a duel, what was the point of accepting it only to try to stop him from making it to the venue?

Look at it this way....X joins Y family...commits crimes against the High Table and asks for a duel...

If the Marquis can refuse the duel and kill X, then why waste time in accepting it only to try to assassinate X from behind?

John Wick could have won the duel if he wanted to kill Caine. He purposely didn't shoot...

The duel being introduced as a way out of liability opens an entire "can of worms" on the lore and rules of the show
Many other characters could have also tried to escape liability with the duel

It's only those whose families sit at the table that can challenge the Marquis to a duel. So a random person can't just wake up one morning, kill everybody in his village and look for a way out by challenging the Marquis to a duel.

Asking why the Marquis didn't refuse the challenge, well it's quite obvious he's an arrogant man and he's more likely to accept than refuse the challenge. He let his arrogance stand in the way of sound reasoning.

Secondly, John was always on the move, and tracking him wasn't the easiest thing for the Marquis, I guess he wanted John in a fixed location, where John can't pull off any surprise attack on them, and if John doesn't show up to that location, it's game over, hence he tried to stop him from getting there.

Did you see the speed at which he collected the gun from Caine in other to end John's life without even considering the fact that John hasn't shot the third time. It was his plan all along, arrogance over sound reasoning and it led to his death.

If he had calculated well it might have ended in his favor. Afterall Winston told John that it's win or lose. Neither is certain for both parties, the outcome might go either way.

MetroLane:
It's only those whose families sit at the table that can challenge the Marquis to a duel. So a random person can't just wake up one morning, kill everybody in his village and look for a way out by challenging the Marquis to a duel.

Asking why the Marquis didn't refuse the challenge, well it's quite obvious he's an arrogant man and he's more likely to accept than refuse the challenge. He let his arrogance stand in the way of sound reasoning.

Secondly, John was always on the move, and tracking him wasn't the easiest thing for the Marquis, I guess he wanted John in a fixed location, where John can't pull off any surprise attack on them, and if John doesn't show up to that location, it's game over, hence he tried to stop him from getting there.

Did you see the speed at which he collected the gun from Caine in other to end John's life without even considering the fact that John hasn't shot the third time. It was his plan all along, arrogance over sound reasoning and it led to his death.

If he had calculated well it might have ended in his favor. Afterall Winston told John that it's win or lose. Neither is certain for both parties, the outcome might go either way.

changes nothing. A family member can still commit attrocities and get away with it...
So yeah

John was quite easy to track right from Chapter 3 and even Chapter 4...they tracked him to the Osaka hotel...
Even on the way to the duel, the moment he came above ground, he was found

For the Marquis accepting the duel...I disagree with you....
it was not pride
Proof in the image below:

Further proof in my next post

@ MetroLane

Further proof:

Baddestguyp:
@ bolded...John knew killing the Elder would change nothing...

If I'm correct, the Marquis didn't have much of a choice. That's what Winston reminded him of...

If the Marquis could deny the duel easily, what was the point of accepting it then sending assassins to prevent John Wick from getting to the venue?

This means he had to accept the duel even if he didn't want to

John only got to know that killing the Elder would change nothing on getting there. He went all the way there thinking he could

The Marquis had a right of refusal over the duel, Winston only manipulated him to accept it and the Marquis saw an opportunity in that

Accepting the duel meant that John Wick could be more easily tracked and killed, since he would have to make his way to the duel arena. Accepting the duel gave the Marquis an oppportunity to send hordes against John Wick to either kill him or delay him and cause a forfeit by default on the part of Wick, which would mean his death. Plus, the added advantage of keeping a hold of Caine's services if John is killed by other than Caine

Baddestguyp:
changes nothing. A family member can still commit attrocities and get away with it...
So yeah

John was quite easy to track right from Chapter 3 and even Chapter 4...they tracked him to the Osaka hotel...
Even on the way to the duel, the moment he came above ground, he was found

Isn't this what the Marquis wanted, do you think he could've stayed hidden on his way to the duel?

For him to get there, he has to come above ground, so it's not like he had a choice anyway.

Baddestguyp:
@ MetroLane

Further proof:

The consequence of failure here is him failing to kill John Wick as he was charged to do. Hence, Winston presented an opportunity to the Marquis to directly face off with him and get the job done

IMEI:
The consequence of failure here is him failing to kill John Wick as he was charged to do. Hence, Winston presented an opportunity to the Marquis to directly face off with him and get the job done

exactly as I suspected...
The point is, it's not about arrogance...
It's because he didn't have a choice

At the same time, the Marquis never had trouble in tracking Wick...the problem was killing him...

A 1v1 faceoff is not easier than a million fully equipped assassins...in fact the face off is far more risky since John had a good chance of not just surviving but walking away freely

So the Marquis had no compelling reason to accept the duel if he really had a choice


For the family...the Marquis called them a "second-rate seat"

MetroLane:
Isn't this what the Marquis wanted, do you think he could've stayed hidden on his way to the duel?

For him to get there, he has to come above ground, so it's not like he had a choice anyway.

tracking John Wick has never been a problem...
They never had trouble finding him in chapter 3 and even at the Osaka Continental

IMEI:
John only got to know that killing the Elder would change nothing on getting there. He went all the way there thinking he could

The Marquis had a right of refusal over the duel, Winston only manipulated him to accept it and the Marquis saw an opportunity in that

Accepting the duel meant that John Wick could be more easily tracked and killed, since he would have to make his way to the duel arena. Accepting the duel gave the Marquis an oppportunity to send hordes against John Wick to either kill him or delay him and cause a forfeit by default on the part of Wick, which would mean his death. Plus, the added advantage of keeping a hold of Caine's services if John is killed by other than Caine

Exactly. He could be easily tracked because there was no way he was going to leave France. He couldn't stay hidden either because there's no point in Challenging the Marquis and not showing up, which means automatic Victory for the Marquis.

And in all the this, the biggest winner is the High Table, because they can easily appoint a new Marquis. Their aim of killing John was achieved ( expect the producers want to give us a new twist like saying John didn't die and bla bla ).

@Baddestguyp Don't forget the Marquis is not the main player, the High Table is. Did the high table win at the end? Of course. Except John didn't die, and even if he didn't, I see no reason for him going after the high table again.

The Marquis is the puppet, even if Winston hadn't manipulated him into accepting, the high table seeing an opportunity would've done the same.

Baddestguyp:
if you could refuse a duel, what was the point of accepting it only to try to stop him from making it to the venue?

Baddestguyp:
exactly as I suspected...
The point is, it's not about arrogance...
It's because he didn't have a choice

See how you quickly switched your narrative from he could have refused to he didn't have a choice.

IMEI:
John only got to know that killing the Elder would change nothing on getting there. He went all the way there thinking he could

The Marquis had a right of refusal over the duel, Winston only manipulated him to accept it and the Marquis saw an opportunity in that

Accepting the duel meant that John Wick could be more easily tracked and killed, since he would have to make his way to the duel arena. Accepting the duel gave the Marquis an oppportunity to send hordes against John Wick to either kill him or delay him and cause a forfeit by default on the part of Wick, which would mean his death. Plus, the added advantage of keeping a hold of Caine's services if John is killed by other than Caine

why would John think killing the Elder would change anything...
He's spent years as an assassin...he knows how it works...he did it out of revenge

The problem with stating that the Marquis had a right of refusal is that it leads to another can of worms...
What exactly did he benefit from it?
He never had a problem tracking Wick in chapter 3 and chapter 4

It's basically a risk for not enough gain...a risk of Wick walking away after killing Caine and the Marquis paying for it

John Wick was literally fvcked without the duel...it was only a matter of time

MetroLane:
See how you quickly switched your narrative from he could have refused to he didn't have a choice.

John Wick was pretty much fvcked without the duel...
It was literally only a short matter of time before he died...

The duel gave Wick an escape route...Marquis had no reason to accept the duel if he didn't have to...
It was certainly not out of pride as you suggested...
It was not pride

Wick could as well kill Caine and walk Scot free...the risk and the benefit do not match at all...no balance at all

MetroLane:
See how you quickly switched your narrative from he could have refused to he didn't have a choice.

I didn't switch anything

You were the one who said he accepted the duel out of pride...

I showed screenshot to show that is wrong...

My first statement you quoted is called an "example" or a "scenerio" that if he could refuse, then why did he bother with accepting it only to send assassins to kill Wick

It's an example to further my point that the Marquis didn't really have a choice

Baddestguyp:
I didn't switch anything

You were the one who said he accepted the duel out of pride...

I showed screenshot to show that is wrong...

My first statement you quoted is called an "example" or a "scenerio"

oga go and read your previous comments .

And yes, it was pride, pride of being the one who killed John Wick, otherwise he wouldn't have rushed to collect the gun from Caine.

Baddestguyp:
exactly as I suspected...
The point is, it's not about arrogance...
It's because he didn't have a choice

At the same time, the Marquis never had trouble in tracking Wick...the problem was killing him...

A 1v1 faceoff is not easier than a million fully equipped assassins...in fact the face off is far more risky since John had a good chance of not just surviving but walking away freely

So the Marquis had no compelling reason to accept the duel if he really had a choice


For the family...the Marquis called them a "second-rate seat"

the Marquis had little choice as soon as he accepted to act on behalf of the High Table concerning Wick, not because of the duel

You forget that John was no longer a refugeless fugitive on the run, he now had the allegiance of the Ruska Roma, who are bound to protect and avenge him in case of his killing. The best bet fot the Marquis was to draw him out using the duel and try to kill him like he did, if he had turned down the duel, John would have returned to stay with the Ruska Roma which could risk igniting a war with the High Table if they tried to assassinate him while in their custody

Like Winston reminded the Marquis, he's also under the Table

MetroLane:
Exactly. He could be easily tracked because there was no way he was going to leave France. He couldn't stay hidden either because there's no point in Challenging the Marquis and not showing up, which means automatic Victory for the Marquis.

And in all the this, the biggest winner is the High Table, because they can easily appoint a new Marquis. Their aim of killing John was achieved ( expect the producers want to give us a new twist like saying John didn't die and bla bla ).

@Baddestguyp Don't forget the Marquis is not the main player, the High Table is. Did the high table win at the end? Of course. Except John didn't die, and even if he didn't, I see no reason for him going after the high table again.

The Marquis is the puppet, even if Winston hadn't manipulated him into accepting, the high table seeing an opportunity would've done the same.

the problem with your statement is that Chapter 3 and chapter 4 have shown that they never had trouble tracking John Wick no matter the country he fled to...

So why would they need him to stay in France when they could track him anywhere...
It's even more ridiculous since it makes no sense to take a huge gamble on Wick winning a duel just because they wanted him to stay in France.
There is no balance between risk and potential benefit


The Marquis was given much power by the High Table.

*(Assuming the Marquis has complete choice to refuse the duel) the options for the Marquis are these:

1. Refuse the duel and continue to have assassins hunt Wick from all over the world since it's not hard to track John Wick... (It's only a short matter of time before they kill Wick) ---- 100% success rate

OR

2. Accept the duel and keep Wick in France...but risk the possibility of Wick making it to the venue and killing Caine and walking away Scot free ---- 50% success rate


If you were the Marquis, which would you choose? Any sane person would choose Option 1...
It's a 100% guaranteed success....
Option 2 is a useless gamble that changes it to a 50/50 chance

Baddestguyp:
why would John think killing the Elder would change anything...
He's spent years as an assassin...he knows how it works...he did it out of revenge

The problem with stating that the Marquis had a right of refusal is that it leads to another can of worms...
What exactly did he benefit from it?
He never had a problem tracking Wick in chapter 3 and chapter 4

It's basically a risk for not enough gain...a risk of Wick walking away after killing Caine and the Marquis paying for it

John Wick was literally fvcked without the duel...it was only a matter of time

It was his best bet of killing Wick and being the one who goes down as ending John Wick

IMEI:
the Marquis had little choice as soon as he accepted to act on behalf of the High Table concerning Wick, not because of the duel

You forget that John was no longer a refugeless fugitive on the run, he now had the allegiance of the Ruska Roma, who are bound to protect and avenge him in case of his killing. The best bet fot the Marquis was to draw him out using the duel and try to kill him like he did, if he had turned down the duel, John would have returned to stay with the Ruska Roma which could risk igniting a war with the High Table if they tried to assassinate him while in their custody

Like Winston reminded the Marquis, he's also under the Table

The same Ruska Roma was referred to as a second-rate seat by the Marquis

The Marquis assassinating John Wick cannot lead to a war with the high table...
If so...then why did the Marquis send people to kill Wick on his way to the venue of the duel?

The High Table is actively against John Wick for his crimes...being under the protection of one family does not stop them from assassinating him

IMEI:
It was his best bet of killing Wick and being the one who goes down as ending John Wick

if he refused the duel (assuming he could refuse)...he would certainly kill John Wick without the risk of Wick winning the duel and walking away a free man...

So why would he leave an option with 100% guaranteed success for one with a 50% guaranteed success?

MetroLane:
oga go and read your previous comments .

And yes, it was pride, pride of being the one who killed John Wick, otherwise he wouldn't have rushed to collect the gun from Caine.

pride did not make him accept...I literally posted screenshots here to refute that...


My previous comments are that the Marquis had no choice but to accept the duel...you said he had a choice but he accepted the duel cos of pride....

The real answer is that the story actually doesn't state whether the Marquis can refuse or not...we can only deduce it...


But one thing is for certain...it had absolutely nothing to do with pride...the conversation between Winston and the Marquis shows pride had nothing to do with it

Baddestguyp:
the problem with your statement is that Chapter 3 and chapter 4 have shown that they never had trouble tracking John Wick no matter the country he fled to...

So why would they need him to stay in France when they could track him anywhere...
It's even more ridiculous since it makes no sense to take a huge gamble on Wick winning a duel just because they wanted him to stay in France.
There is no balance between risk and potential benefit


The Marquis was given much power by the High Table.

*(Assuming the Marquis has complete choice to refuse the duel) the options for the Marquis are these:

1. Refuse the duel and continue to have assassins hunt Wick from all over the world since it's not hard to track John Wick... (It's only a short matter of time before they kill Wick) ---- 100% success rate

OR

2. Accept the duel and keep Wick in France...but risk the possibility of Wick making it to the venue and killing Caine and walking away Scot free ---- 50% success rate


If you were the Marquis, which would you choose? Any sane person would choose Option 1...
It's a 100% guaranteed success....
Option 2 is a useless gamble that changes it to a 50/50 chance

Any sane person will choose Option 1.

The problem is option 1 doesn't exist, no need of dwelling there.

Option 2 makes the playground Level. Even both of them could lose their lives, in that case, good riddance.


The High Table made the Rule, not Winston.

MetroLane:
Any sane person will choose Option 1.

The problem is option 1 doesn't exist, no need of dwelling there.

Option 2 makes the playground Level. Even both of them could lose their lives, in that case, good riddance.


The High Table made the Rule, not Winston.

why does option 1 not exist?

I thought you said he could refuse...but his pride made him accept the duel


Now you're changing your opinion and saying that the High Table forced the Marquis to accept the duel?

Isn't this you below?: @bolded

MetroLane:
It's only those whose families sit at the table that can challenge the Marquis to a duel. So a random person can't just wake up one morning, kill everybody in his village and look for a way out by challenging the Marquis to a duel.

Asking why the Marquis didn't refuse the challenge, well it's quite obvious he's an arrogant man and he's more likely to accept than refuse the challenge. He let his arrogance stand in the way of sound reasoning.

Secondly, John was always on the move, and tracking him wasn't the easiest thing for the Marquis, I guess he wanted John in a fixed location, where John can't pull off any surprise attack on them, and if John doesn't show up to that location, it's game over, hence he tried to stop him from getting there.

Did you see the speed at which he collected the gun from Caine in other to end John's life without even considering the fact that John hasn't shot the third time. It was his plan all along, arrogance over sound reasoning and it led to his death.

If he had calculated well it might have ended in his favor. Afterall Winston told John that it's win or lose. Neither is certain for both parties, the outcome might go either way.

Baddestguyp:
why does option 1 not exist?

I thought you said he could refuse...but his pride made him accept the duel


Now you're changing your opinion and saying that the High Table forced the Marquis to accept the duel?

Is your brain paining you? Where did I say he could refuse?

Go and dig it out I'd like to see.

And option 1 doesn't exist because Winston made it clear that "without rules they're living like animals"

If option 1 exist, it's as good as saying there's no rule. If they avoid answering for their crime by refusing a duel, then they have no right to hold John accountable for his crime also.

MetroLane:
Is your brain paining you? Where did I say he could refuse?

Go and dig it out I'd like to see.

okay...
Who posted this then?
@bolded:

Is this your alter ego:

MetroLane:
It's only those whose families sit at the table that can challenge the Marquis to a duel. So a random person can't just wake up one morning, kill everybody in his village and look for a way out by challenging the Marquis to a duel.

Asking why the Marquis didn't refuse the challenge, well it's quite obvious he's an arrogant man and he's more likely to accept than refuse the challenge. He let his arrogance stand in the way of sound reasoning.

Secondly, John was always on the move, and tracking him wasn't the easiest thing for the Marquis, I guess he wanted John in a fixed location, where John can't pull off any surprise attack on them, and if John doesn't show up to that location, it's game over, hence he tried to stop him from getting there.

Did you see the speed at which he collected the gun from Caine in other to end John's life without even considering the fact that John hasn't shot the third time. It was his plan all along, arrogance over sound reasoning and it led to his death.

If he had calculated well it might have ended in his favor. Afterall Winston told John that it's win or lose. Neither is certain for both parties, the outcome might go either way.

I didn't know two people were using the same account and username to argue with me
Maybe you are twins

Baddestguyp:
okay...
Who posted this then?
@bolded:

Is this your alter ego:

More likely to accept than refuse because of his arrogance, how does that translate to he can refuse.

Letting arrogance stand in the way of sound reasoning by collecting the gun from Caine, how does that translate to he "can refuse"

You already know he can't refuse and you asked why didn't he refused and I answered you, now you want to turn everything around.

If anything you should get a knock for asking the silly question.

MetroLane:
More likely to accept than refuse because of his arrogance, how does that translate to he can refuse.

you clearly stated that he's an arrogant man...that that's why he didn't refuse

MetroLane:
Asking why the Marquis didn't refuse the challenge, well it's quite obvious he's an arrogant man and he's more likely to accept than refuse the challenge. He let his arrogance stand in the way of sound reasoning.

You basically implied that he could have refused the duel if he wasn't arrogant

Baddestguyp:
if he refused the duel (assuming he could refuse)...he would certainly kill John Wick without the risk of Wick winning the duel and walking away a free man...

So why would he leave an option with 100% guaranteed success for one with a 50% guaranteed success?

That's because you are only looking at it from one way.

You seem to have forgotten what John told Winston before he brought up the Duel. He's plans were to kill the Marquis and every member of the high table. Dude will just go on picking them off one by one. In the end the 100% guaranteed success won't be anything more than - 1%. Accepting the duel was how the Marquis could have full control of the outcome. The alternative was open to wider array of uncertainty. And it was a sound plan. That did work in the end. If only he had shown more restraint. The high table would have been licking his ass now.