On The Origin of Evil - Christianity Etc (3) - Nairaland
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| Re: On The Origin of Evil by GothamCities: 6:29pm On Feb 06, 2025 |
LordReed:Holy, holy, holy! Lord God Almighty Early in the morning Our song shall rise to Thee Holy, holy, holy! Merciful and mighty God in three persons Blessed Trinity! Holy, holy, holy! Though the darkness hide Thee Though the eye of sinful man Thy glory may not see Only Thou art holy There is none beside Thee Perfect in power, in love and purity Holy, holy, holy! Lord God Almighty All Thy works shall praise Thy name In earth and sky and sea Holy, holy, holy! Merciful and mighty God in three persons Blessed Trinity Oh God in three persons Blessed Trinity! |
| Re: On The Origin of Evil by THEDEEPSIGHT: 6:45pm On Feb 06, 2025 |
LordReed:  |
| Re: On The Origin of Evil by MaxInDHouse(m): 7:19pm On Feb 06, 2025 |
TheDevilsBride:Satan has the majority of mankind on his side because most of you are rebellious like him so the misinformed ones are many!  |
| Re: On The Origin of Evil by LordReed(m): 8:19pm On Feb 06, 2025 |
GothamCities:T'o ba fe lo we omi l'o ma'lo If you wan' go wash, na water you go use T'o ba fe se'be omi l'o ma'lo If you want cook soup, na water you go use T'o ri ba n'gbona o omi l'ero re If your head dey hot, na water go cool am T'omo ba n'dagba omi l'o ma'lo If your child dey grow, na water he go use If water kill your child, na water you go use T'omi ba p'omo e o omi na lo ma'lo Ko s'ohun to'le se k'o ma lo'mi o Nothing without water Ko s'ohun to'le se k'o ma lo'mi o Omi o l'ota o Water, him not get enemy! Omi o l'ota o Water, him not get enemy! If you fight am, unless you wan die Water, him not get enemy! I say water no get enemy Water, him not get enemy! If you fight am, unless you wan die Water, him not get enemy! Omi o l'ota o Water, him not get enemy! I dey talk of Black man power Water, him not get enemy! I dey talk of Black power, I say Water, him not get enemy! I say water no get enemy Water, him not get enemy! If you fight am, unless you wan die Water, him not get enemy! I say water no get enemy Water, him not get enemy! I say water no get enemy Water, him not get enemy! Omi o l'ota o Water, him not get enemy! Omi o l'ota o Water, him not get enemy! 3 Likes |
| Re: On The Origin of Evil by LordReed(m): 8:20pm On Feb 06, 2025 |
| Re: On The Origin of Evil by TheDevilsBride(f): 8:28pm On Feb 06, 2025 |
MaxInDHouse:I hope you realize you're admitting that your God is not just incompetent, but he's definitely not omnipotent and/or almighty as well? So, in light of this concession, why then should we call him "God"? What's your definition of "God", if he's clearly not all-powerful? 1 Like |
| Re: On The Origin of Evil by TheDevilsBride(f): 8:33pm On Feb 06, 2025 |
LordReed:Kikikikikikikikikikiki  .Una no go use laugh kee pesin this night o ! |
| Re: On The Origin of Evil by LordReed(m): 8:54pm On Feb 06, 2025 |
TheDevilsBride:Abi e bring song me too I bring song. Make we dey sing dey go na. LoLz. 3 Likes |
| Re: On The Origin of Evil by MaxInDHouse(m): 9:28pm On Feb 06, 2025 |
TheDevilsBride:After reading the Bible where does He prove to be a bully? There are many nations practicing what they want as religion but He only focused on Israel His special possession. So if you're truly a researcher as you claim how do you expect such a person to force people against their wishes? His being ALMIGHTY doesn't translate to forcing anyone to live by His standards! |
| Re: On The Origin of Evil by THEDEEPSIGHT: 7:46am On Feb 07, 2025 |
TheDevilsBride:Good morning. Let me set out my premises in brief bullet points and then perhaps we can deconstruct them in detail later. It will be crucial that you agree on basic principles of causality. If you seek refuge in unproven ideas in quantum physics it will be impossible to have a logical discussion. 1. All physical motion requires a trigger (this is a reframing of the principle in the Kalam that whatever begins to exist must have a cause). 2. The universe being a physical moving object (or conglomeration of objects which as far as we know started as a singularity) required a trigger. 3. If the Universe is all that is physical, then this trigger could not also be physical. That would be a contradiction in terms and amount to a thing being its own trigger, which is against the laws of motion. 4. We are therefore led to necessarily consider a non physical cause of the physical world - thus, an element that is transcendental. Namely: that is non physical and transcends the universe - i.e: is beyond the universe. 5. We can conclude the first set of premises by saying that we logically deduce an immaterial and transcendental cause of the universe. 6. The second set of premises starts with the fact that all physical things are mutable: i.e: subject to change. 7. That which is non-physical, is not subject to this same kind of mutability. 8. For anything at all to exist in the physical, something immaterial must have preceded and triggered it. 9. An infinite regress of causes is not possible. 10. There therefore necessarily exists a permanent, intangible, transcendental, immutable and uncaused element. 11. Such an element must posess the attribute of self-existence - namely that it cannot but exist, it necessarily exists, its nature is such that it inherently permanently exists. 12. Components of such a self existent thing are eternal time (eternity) and infinite space (infinity). 13. Eternity and infinity are uncreated and self existent. 14. The summary of the foregoing, when absorbed carefully, logically leads us to the conclusion of the existence of a self existent, transcendental, immaterial, immutable cause of the physical universe - and this element is what is called God. 1 Like |
| Re: On The Origin of Evil by TheDevilsBride(f): 7:53am On Feb 07, 2025 |
MaxInDHouse:Where do we begin, lol? How about the entire book of Job, where your loving God gives Satan full permission, and allows him to torment a blameless man just to win a bet? How about the great flood, where he wilfully, and without remorse, drowned entire cities of people? How about all the instances of infanticide in the Bible? So, we're going to act, and pretend, like none of those things happened, yeah? There are many nations practicing what they want as religion but He only focused on Israel His special possession.Okay, that's cool. An all-loving God who plays favorites with a single tribe, condemning everyone else to darkness and ignorance. Smh, at this point, I might as well go have a cup of tea, lean back and watch you talk, because you keep proving my point, with very little effort from my end. So if you're truly a researcher as you claim how do you expect such a person to force people against their wishes?Once again, thank you. Another contradiction in the Christian doctrine, between the concepts of free will and omnipotence, has been brought to the fore. Well done, lmao. His being ALMIGHTY doesn't translate to forcing anyone to live by His standards!Then tell us what's the point of being an all-powerful entity, if you're just going to sit back, and watch your own creation, ignore your standards, hmmm? You can't reconcile this conundrum, and judging from your subjective view of your own faith, I think you're on a long, long road, if you think you can. |
| Re: On The Origin of Evil by TheDevilsBride(f): 7:55am On Feb 07, 2025 |
THEDEEPSIGHT:Good morning. I have just seen this. I'll share my thoughts in a bit. |
| Re: On The Origin of Evil by LordReed(m): 7:59am On Feb 07, 2025 |
THEDEEPSIGHT:The universe is all that exists NOW or from the expansion of the singularity till now. We don’t know what existed BEFORE or if before even makes any type of sense to us. You cannot therefore leap to any conclusion. 2 Likes |
| Re: On The Origin of Evil by THEDEEPSIGHT: 8:05am On Feb 07, 2025 |
LordReed:If you examine this statement you will find it unintelligeble. |
| Re: On The Origin of Evil by LordReed(m): 8:08am On Feb 07, 2025 |
THEDEEPSIGHT:What is unintelligible is its implication. If time began to exist at the inception of the big bang then what does before time mean? |
| Re: On The Origin of Evil by MaxInDHouse(m): 8:12am On Feb 07, 2025 |
TheDevilsBride:He answered: "Now if you will strictly obey my voice and keep my covenant, you will certainly become my special property out of all peoples, for the whole earth belongs to me" Exodus 19:5 Israelites will serve as God's special possession as example for sincere and honest hearted people in other lands. That's why people from different nations back then began traveling to Jerusalem for the worship of the Almighty God. So if you were alive back then and have someone living close to you who always travel to Jerusalem for pure worship that has served as a witness already that there is a God greater than the one you worship in your locality. |
| Re: On The Origin of Evil by TheDevilsBride(f): 9:27am On Feb 07, 2025 |
@THEDEEPSIGHT, what gives? Just noticed your post to me was hidden. |
| Re: On The Origin of Evil by DeepSightZ: 9:57am On Feb 07, 2025 |
TheDevilsBride:Spambot. Got banned for adding a link. A link to a nairaland page for heaven's sake. |
| Re: On The Origin of Evil by TheDevilsBride(f): 10:07am On Feb 07, 2025*. Modified: 12:18pm On Feb 07, 2025 |
THEDEEPSIGHT:I'm not sure why you've deemed it necessary, to commence your elucidation, with a preemptive strike against quantum physics. I feel like if there's any aspect, that could potentially contribute to the debate, it shouldn't be thrown out, or merely handwaved aside, without good cause. But at any rate, let's move on... 1. All physical motion requires a trigger (this is a reframing of the principle in the Kalam that whatever begins to exist must have a cause).This honestly sounds like a sneaky "reframing" of the KCA, that actually makes it worse, tbh. No triggers are necessary and/or required, to make my coffee cold in the morning, it's simply just a natural manifestation of the laws of thermodynamics. You can't just smuggle in assumptions about the nature of causality, from our medium-sized, medium-speed, everyday experiences, and apply them to every single phenomenon, under the sun, lmao. 2. The universe being a physical moving object (or conglomeration of objects which as far as we know started as a singularity) required a trigger.I'll need to clear up a subtle, albeit unstated misconception here, before we venture too far into the deep end, and waste further time: LordReed already pointed this out, but I'll reiterate, for the avoidance of doubt, that our universe isn't an object IN space and time - it IS space, time, and everything else. More importantly, we cannot pretend to know if it even "started" at all, in the first place, given that the singularity is a mathematical artifact where our current physics breaks down, and not necessarily a starting point. Planck time? Anyone? 3. If the Universe is all that is physical, then this trigger could not also be physical. That would be a contradiction in terms and amount to a thing being its own trigger, which is against the laws of motion.Circular reasoning, my dear. Now, watch this: Ever heard the term "googwump"? No? If I define "googwump" as "everything that exists", then by definition, anything causing this googwump can't exist! Does it sound like I'm off my meds yet, lmao? If so, I hope, with all duly accorded respect and no offense intended, you can see how some of you folks sound, whenever you start these semantic games. Most of you define, or at least, seem to think of causation in the exact same way you'd think about billiard balls hitting each other. Quantum mechanics (you saw this coming, didn't you ?) shows us that causation at the fundamental level, is absolutely nothing like our everyday life experience.4. We are therefore led to necessarily consider a non physical cause of the physical world - thus, an element that is transcendental. Namely: that is non physical and transcends the universe - i.e: is beyond the universe.Smh, this is textbook special pleading, and "transcendental" is such an obtuse weasel word, void of any actual explanatory power. 5. We can conclude the first set of premises by saying that we logically deduce an immaterial and transcendental cause of the universe....except you can't logically deduce anything, after making several logical leaps. 6. The second set of premises starts with the fact that all physical things are mutable: i.e: subject to change.I was satisfied when I read this, as it seemed as though we've finally managed to find a mutual ground in this conversation. What I didn't expect though, was for you to mutate this reasonable observation you've just made into something far less reasonable below... 7. That which is non-physical, is not subject to this same kind of mutability.Here we can see you're still making stuff up. Can you elucidate how exactly you came about the knowledge of what non-physical things are, or aren't subject to? Have you perhaps, done extensive empirical studies of non-physical things? Do you possess a large, extensive database of non-physical objects to compare? Or are you just asserting properties about something you've invented, to solve an imaginary problem you've also invented, lmao? 8. For anything at all to exist in the physical, something immaterial must have preceded and triggered it.Okay, so this is just like your number 1, but with a fancier hat. Once again, you're still stubbornly applying everyday mundane causation principles to everything, but simultaneously inventing a magical category of existence, out of thin air, that conveniently doesn't have to play by the same rules. 9. An infinite regress of causes is not possible.Have you counted, just to make sure, hmmm? Besides, why is an infinite regress any more problematic to you, than your proposed solution of an eternal, uncaused cause? Ironically, the concept of "infinity" exists, for the exact purpose of questioning our intuitions, about what we think is possible. 10. There therefore necessarily exists a permanent, intangible, transcendental, immutable and uncaused element.Mate, you're piling on every conceivable attribute, that would exempt your proposed entity from the inconvenience of having to explain itself. 11. Such an element must posess the attribute of self-existence - namely that it cannot but exist, it necessarily exists, its nature is such that it inherently permanently exists.Again, circular logic. You cannot define something into existence by merely giving it the property of "necessary existence". Reality doesn't quite work like that, my dear. 12. Components of such a self existent thing are eternal time (eternity) and infinite space (infinity).Okay, now you've picked up the ball, and moved from inventing attributes, to making attempts to peek in, observing your own imaginary construct and list its components. Also, your rather flippant equation of time with eternity, and space with infinity betrays such a shocking misunderstanding of both physics and mathematics, that has quite frankly, left me flabbergasted. 13. Eternity and infinity are uncreated and self existent.I'm sorry, but you're still just playing philosophical mad libs. You've taken two mathematical concepts that, for some reason, you don't seem to understand properly, and granted them mystical properties out of nowhere. Do you therefore, suppose that we should ascribe divinity to numbers? Afterall, zero and pi, are both "uncreated and self-existent", isn't it? Look, let's not get carried away here. Infinity and eternity are human concepts that we use to describe limitlessness. That's all there is to it, my dear. 14. The summary of the foregoing, when absorbed carefully, logically leads us to the conclusion of the existence of a self existent, transcendental, immaterial, immutable cause of the physical universe - and this element is what is called God.In all honesty, I find your argument to be insufficient, as it seems like you've just constructed an elaborate philosophical Rube Goldberg machine out of flimsy logic, that takes in questionable premises, runs them through a series of unwarranted assumptions, and spits out exactly what you wanted to prove in the first place all along, lol. I get what you're trying to do, but I'm afraid I can't just accept your dodgy re-definition of physics, where you casually invent new categories of existence. It's all a bit to abstract for my taste, thanks. 1 Like 1 Share |
| Re: On The Origin of Evil by TheDevilsBride(f): 10:09am On Feb 07, 2025 |
DeepSightZ:Trust me, I understand your frustration, lol. This site's spambots are like wild mutts sometimes, causing a ruckus everywhere, lmao. One of the reasons I hardly post here, until recently. Anyhoos, please check up for my rejoinder to your other sobriquet. |
| Re: On The Origin of Evil by TheDevilsBride(f): 10:28am On Feb 07, 2025 |
MaxInDHouse:But people also traveled to Delphi to consult the Oracle nau. Some travel to Egypt to worship Ra, and some to India to worship all the countless deities therein. Following your logic, I suppose we should conclude that Apollo, Ra, Vishnu, and Zeus are all simultaneously real, abi? Pray tell, what point are you even trying to make, except perhaps, the fact that humans are gullible enough to spend good, hard moolah on religious tourism, lmao? Mate, your arguments are so inane, I'm not even taking this conversation serious anymore. I'm just wondering what the next joke is, that you're going to nibble me with. I'm not even going to speak on your all-powerful, all-knowing deity, that you're seriously doing no favors, by portraying him as an entity with the emotional security of an insecure parent, lmao. 1 Like |
| Re: On The Origin of Evil by MaxInDHouse(m): 1:10pm On Feb 07, 2025 |
TheDevilsBride:I don't know about you but since i was born until now none of these has been mentioned except in story books when people around me are travelling either to Jerusalem or Mecca in search of the Abrahamic God! |
| Re: On The Origin of Evil by Nnamdipapa(m): 3:18pm On Feb 07, 2025 |
triplechoice:I call it, drinking the same kool-aid |
| Re: On The Origin of Evil by TheDevilsBride(f): 4:26pm On Feb 07, 2025 |
MaxInDHouse:Are you trying to suggest that your singular personal experience trumps all the historical records compiled, all the anthropological studies made, and all the other lived experiences of billions of people across various parts of the world, besides yourself If that's the case, then what are we still talking about here? Why aren't you penning a strongly worded letter to the Nobel committee, upon discovering this revolutionary new epistemology? We can arrange a meeting, and establish some contacts, you know. They might scoff at our audacity, but it's worth a try ! 1 Like |
| Re: On The Origin of Evil by MaxInDHouse(m): 6:04am On Feb 08, 2025 |
TheDevilsBride:Ever seen a single representative of any of these religions you mentioned at your doorstep to discuss with you about his or her god? Well this is what the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob said about those gods in ancient times dragging supremacy with Him: Their idols are silver and gold, The work of human hands. A mouth they have, but they cannot speak; Eyes, but they cannot see; Ears they have, but they cannot hear; A nose, but they cannot smell; Hands they have, but they cannot feel; Feet, but they cannot walk; They make no sound with their throat. The people who make them will become just like them, As will all those who trust in them. Psalms 115:4-8 The highlighted in blue makes perfect sense to me, those gods are dumb, blind, deaf, can't perceive anything odor, can't touch, can't walk, they can't even make any sound so the true God said those trusting (believing) in them will later become like these dead gods! Praise the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob because this thing we are reading today was written when worshipers of all these gods were dragging territories with great armies back then claiming their gods are great but what about today? TheDevilsBride can only mention their names their worshipers have become dumb, blind, deaf, no sense of smell, no feelings, immobile, can't even make any sound again while the worshipers of Jehovah are going all over the earth to make disciples preaching and teaching globally about the Kingdom of Christ who is the son of JEHOVAH!  |
| Re: On The Origin of Evil by TheDevilsBride(f): 6:14am On Feb 08, 2025 |
MaxInDHouse:Is it not ironic that you'd quote a passage about the folly of believing in silent gods, but you shockingly failed to notice that your God has been mute ever since the Bronze Age, lmao? Abi, did you also fail to notice that Jehovah was apparently quite the chatterbox in the ancient times, always taking the opportunity to reveal himself, back when literacy was scarce and fact-checking was impossible, hmmm? All of a sudden he has developed divine laryngitis since the invention of recording devices ? 1 Like |
| Re: On The Origin of Evil by MaxInDHouse(m): 6:25am On Feb 08, 2025 |
TheDevilsBride:He has never spoken directly to anyone who is challenging His authority so your argument is dead on arrival. As He claimed some 2,700 years ago it's obvious now that all those gods your are trying to equate with Him are nothing but the works of man's hands. Let their worshipers MOVE to places and TALK to people about their gods that's all we are asking if truly their gods were real like the One who is able to speak and fulfill what He promised: No weapon formed against you will have any success, And you will condemn any tongue that rises up against you in the judgment. This is the heritage of the servants of Jehovah, And their righteousness is from me,” declares Jehovah. Isaiah 54:17 It's just a pity that you an atheist is the one trying to speak for the gods you don't even believe (trust) please where are their worshipers as in those trusting (believing) in them? Praise Jehovah! They have all become like their gods! Psalms 115:8 |
| Re: On The Origin of Evil by TheDevilsBride(f): 6:36am On Feb 08, 2025 |
MaxInDHouse:I see. So what happened then, with Paul on the road to Damascus, hmmm? Was he not literally persecuting Christians, when God decided to stop him and have a little chat, hmmm? Or was Paul already an enthusiastic, faith-filled supporter before his divine optometry appointment, ? 1 Like |
| Re: On The Origin of Evil by MaxInDHouse(m): 6:47am On Feb 08, 2025 |
TheDevilsBride:Paul is a Jew one of God's people {Act 22:3} but he was blinded by the tradition of men {Galatians 1:14 compare to Romans 10:2-3} that is why Jesus spoke to him to show the confused man mercy {Romans 9:15} and he wasn't challenging God's authority ironically he was fighting for God's authority according to his own understanding back then. If he was challenging God's authority he wouldn't have responded calling him "Lord" at a go! Act 9:5 |
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