₦airaland Forum

TheDevilsBride:
It's pointless making allusions to "further research" when, judging from the explanation following this statement, you simply make things up, rather than do any "further research", lol.



Smh, lmao, Maximus you and I know, that you just conjured this dodgy re-definition, pulling it straight out of your arse. But even if we accept your re-definition, then the plot thickens, because you're defining your God's character here, and not his capabilities. I've now shown that etymologically, "ALMIGHTY" and "OMNIPOTENCE" are the exact same word, so practically, you haven't addressed anything. I'm just waiting to see where you actually demonstrate that they are different.



Kikikikikiki. Classic Maximus, scoring own goals, by submitting verses that severely undermine his very own arguments, lol. Abraham wasn't questioning God's capabilities, my dear, he was appealing to God's character, his moral nature. Like when you judge your friend for kicking a dead puppy. Doesn't mean he's physically incapable of kicking the puppy.



It is at this precise juncture, that your argument truly achieves peak circular reasoning, like a dog chasing its' own tail, lmao.

".....God can't do evil things because he's holy"

".....therefore we can't use 'omnipotent' because it includes the ability to do evil things"

"...which God can't do because he's holy...

.

You are desperately struggling, with excessive semantic dribbling, to limit your God's power, so that it matches your perception of his character, and yet you only succeeded in committing a categorical error of magnificent proportions, wrapped up in circular reasoning, and passionately served with a side salad of outrageous (misunderstood, at best) semantics.

..."further research", indeed .

MadMax is well known for pulling out definitions from his ever-resourceful ass, and most times they are own goals.
Take for instance this his problem with all-powerful, almighty and omnipotent. Despite data showing the words mean exactly the same, despite many folks including myself explaining to him the words mean the same, he still insists otherwise. Now he's saying all-powerful means his god can do evil. Now here is the own-goal he scored: he forgot that Yhwh himself said he is evil.
In the New World Translation of the Bible(I intentionally used NWT cos its used by JW and they don't give a fvck about any other translation and if I used any other translation apart from NWT, MadMax would ignore it), Isaiah 45:7 says, "I form light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I, Jehovah, am doing all these things. Other translations like King James Bible said
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Despite NWT trying to damage-limit the verse, the evil in the verse still shines through. Which good god would create darkness and calamity, and for what reason? Also in Samuel, Yhwh sent evil spirits to torment Saul, infact Yhwh himself is a whole ass villain in the Bible.
So MadMax, yes, Yhwh is a bad boy too.

TheDevilsBride:
How do we actually verify the existence of this root source, for certain? Divine revelation? Gut feeling? Ouija board?

Are you by chance JessicaRabbit? You two have the same vibes: smart and witty, tackling these dumb theists for fun

MaxInDHouse:
After reading the Bible where does He prove to be a bully?

There are many nations practicing what they want as religion but He only focused on Israel His special possession.

So if you're truly a researcher as you claim how do you expect such a person to force people against their wishes?

His being ALMIGHTY doesn't translate to forcing anyone to live by His standards!

So what did he do to Pharaoh's heart when Moses wanted deliverance?

THEDEEPSIGHT:
Good morning. Let me set out my premises in brief bullet points and then perhaps we can deconstruct them in detail later. It will be crucial that you agree on basic principles of causality. If you seek refuge in unproven ideas in quantum physics it will be impossible to have a logical discussion.

1. All physical motion requires a trigger (this is a reframing of the principle in the Kalam that whatever begins to exist must have a cause).

2. The universe being a physical moving object (or conglomeration of objects which as far as we know started as a singularity) required a trigger.

3. If the Universe is all that is physical, then this trigger could not also be physical. That would be a contradiction in terms and amount to a thing being its own trigger, which is against the laws of motion.

4. We are therefore led to necessarily consider a non physical cause of the physical world - thus, an element that is transcendental. Namely: that is non physical and transcends the universe - i.e: is beyond the universe.

5. We can conclude the first set of premises by saying that we logically deduce an immaterial and transcendental cause of the universe.

6. The second set of premises starts with the fact that all physical things are mutable: i.e: subject to change.

7. That which is non-physical, is not subject to this same kind of mutability.

8. For anything at all to exist in the physical, something immaterial must have preceded and triggered it.

9. An infinite regress of causes is not possible.

10. There therefore necessarily exists a permanent, intangible, transcendental, immutable and uncaused element.

11. Such an element must posess the attribute of self-existence - namely that it cannot but exist, it necessarily exists, its nature is such that it inherently permanently exists.

12. Components of such a self existent thing are eternal time (eternity) and infinite space (infinity).

13. Eternity and infinity are uncreated and self existent.

14. The summary of the foregoing, when absorbed carefully, logically leads us to the conclusion of the existence of a self existent, transcendental, immaterial, immutable cause of the physical universe - and this element is what is called God.

This piece has a lot of fallacies.
1. Fallacy of Appeal to Ignorance
2. So how did u deduce the properties of this transcendal entity

jaephoenix:
This piece has a lot of fallacies.
1. Fallacy of Appeal to Ignorance
2. So how did u deduce the properties of this transcendal entity

I set out the rationale for my conclusions in detail from my premises. For example saying that that which caused the physical could not itself be physical - along with several other points of logic. Ol boy if they don't make sense to you, just forget it, there are far more important things in life such as money to be made.

jaephoenix:
Are you by chance JessicaRabbit? You two have the same vibes: smart and witty, tackling these dumb theists for fun

.

jaephoenix:
MadMax is well known for pulling out definitions from his ever-resourceful ass, and most times they are own goals.
Take for instance this his problem with all-powerful, almighty and omnipotent. Despite data showing the words mean exactly the same, despite many folks including myself explaining to him the words mean the same, he still insists otherwise. Now he's saying all-powerful means his god can do evil. Now here is the own-goal he scored: he forgot that Yhwh himself said he is evil.
In the New World Translation of the Bible(I intentionally used NWT cos its used by JW and they don't give a fvck about any other translation and if I used any other translation apart from NWT, MadMax would ignore it), Isaiah 45:7 says, "I form light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I, Jehovah, am doing all these things. Other translations like King James Bible said
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Despite NWT trying to damage-limit the verse, the evil in the verse still shines through. Which good god would create darkness and calamity, and for what reason? Also in Samuel, Yhwh sent evil spirits to torment Saul, infact Yhwh himself is a whole ass villain in the Bible.
So MadMax, yes, Yhwh is a bad boy too.

Omo, I started having a migraine reading his posts. He just waffles on, repeating the same boring rhetoric over and over again, about "true believers". DeepSightZ even put hand for the guy matter. Abeg, let's forget the dodo. He simply cannot be helped, smh, lol.

DeepSightZ:
Dear The Devils Bride,

You may recall that at the onset, I told you that it would be crucial that you accept fundamental principles of causality, and that deploying Quantum Physics to deny same would render the discussion impossible.

...and I pointedly rejected this proposal, because as far as this universe is concerned, nothing is ever carved in stone. Scientific progress is made, by the exact process of questioning whatever we think, or consider to be "fundamental principle/s", and not by putting them on a pedestal constantly, like sacred cows that must be immune to all forms of scrutiny.

For this reason, I am unable to proceed with this conversation. In saying so, I must point out that while aspects of Quantum Physics / Mechanics are indeed proven and already useful in science as you point out, there is as yet no concrete proof of those theoretical aspects of it which speak to the breakdown of the laws of physics at any "place" or "time" close to the origin of the universe. This is theory and speculation only and is by no means proven. If I am wrong, and there is concrete proof of this, please by all means draw same to my attention.

Absolutely. It's true that much of QM remains in the realm of speculation, but then again, we could say the exact same for your entire position on causality, as we begin to approach cosmic scales/levels. QM, as speculative as you may think it is, at least has mathematics and experimental evidence firmly on its side, not philosophical conjecture.

So for clarity, I say - that those aspects of quantum physics which pertain to this existential discussion - and which specfically abrogate the known principles of causality - are unproven.

I promise, not trying to poke for a dust-up here, but it just seems convenient to me, that the aspects which particularly challenge your worldview, are the ones you have labeled as "unproven" .

(Let me briefly cite a case in point: many people have tried to use virtual particles in a quantum vacuum as evidence that things may "pop" out of "nothingness" uncaused. This is wrong because there is no such thing as a perfect vacuum observed anywhere, and those so called quantum vacuums contain low gaseous pressure. Dont take my word for it, investigate.)

The point was never about whether perfect vacuums exist though (they don't, lol), but that QM exposes a fundamental indeterminacy in nature that holds the feet, of our classical notions of causality, to the fire.

I thus cannot proceed with the discussion.

Fair enough, if you feel that way.

I will only add that I also do not buy your explanation on "triggers" and most importantly, it is absolutely impossible for anything to expand if there isnt pre-existing space into which it expands. On this point, I will not even entertain any cavil whatsoever, it is an iron cast point of both logic and commonsense and no voodoo can take it away.

The space itself can expand, you know. But, you do you.

There are many other fine points I would have loved to discuss in your write up, but as we do in law - when a matter is disposed off by a supervening point or principle, we do not waste time with other details. Thus, on the ground that you insist on unproven quantum principles to denounce causality, I have to drop the subject.

...except we're in a quantum court here, where even the precedents and principles themselves, are on trial, lmao.

It has, nonetheless, been a pleasure.

A pleasure, indeed. In the spirit of your legal metaphors, I'll conclude my riposte with this: The universe is not obligated to make any sense to you, and neither is it even obligated to make any sense to me, or anyone else. The joy of learning, comes from the pursuit of understanding, even of those things that cast doubts on our rudimentary assumptions of reality.

jaephoenix:
So what did he do to Pharaoh's heart when Moses wanted deliverance?

Why is loneliness the problem of atheists?
You said you will not engage me again this is the second time:

jaephoenix:
Bro, maybe I'll stop debating with you. You don't answer questions, but instead deflect it to answer a different question.

You said it but within few months you'll come back begging for my attention!

jaephoenix:
MadMax is well known for pulling out definitions from his ever-resourceful ass, and most times they are own goals.
Isaiah 45:7 says, "I form light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I, Jehovah, am doing all these things."

I have explained this countless times but since you atheists only stick to your own opinion instead of reasoning i will explain it again.

Light and Darkness, Peace and Calamity are the words you picked in that verse but what is the import?
You don't care.

Well it's in the dark that people practice their evil deeds so the one who created darkness can protect His servant from them. There are gasses that when they mix together they will form heat that's enough to melt metals and these same gasses could be mixed together with other gasses to form coolness that's enough to freeze things. God is in control of it all so when Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon thought fire could destroy everything Jehovah proved Himself as the Creator of this calamitous gas by changing its action to air-conditioner while the same thing killed Nebuchadnezzar's powerful men.
When the enemies of Daniel threw him into the lion's den Jehovah proved that He is the Creator of this predator by changing it to a domestic animal while the same animal killed those plotters.

So learn what our God means not just read and apply wrongly!

MaxInDHouse:
I don't know about you but since i was born until now none of these has been mentioned except in story books when people around me are travelling either to Jerusalem or Mecca in search of the Abrahamic God!

Its either you're too ignorant or too dishonest.
There are followers of those gods till tomorrow. A simple Google search woulda straightened you out but then I heard education is frowned upon by your guys, so….

jaephoenix:
Its either you're too ignorant or too dishonest.
There are followers of those gods till tomorrow. A simple Google search woulda straightened you out but then I heard education is frowned upon by your guys, so….

TheDevilsBride:
Apollo, Ra, Vishnu, and Zeus

How many times have you come across worshipers of these gods whether in your school, neighborhood or here on Nairaland?
That's what i mean Sir!

Argue from now till thy kingdom come, DIVINE TRUTHS WILL EVENTUALLY BE PROVEN.

Let him who has ears listen. I am not speaking based on the Bible. The Bible is EVERYTHING. But the Bible does not contain Everything. This is why the Catholic church has TRADITIONS.

God did not just create only humans. God created angels too and so many other beings. Even the Devil was an Angel named Lucifer.

Please listen if you want to listen. God almighty is calling you to unity.

If you are a MUSLIM, TRADITIONALIST, JEW, ATHEIST or AGNOSTIC reading this, you don't know what God has done for you. Run to Jesus Christ immediately. All those things have been abolished.

IT IS EXTREMELY EXTREMELY RISKY FOR ONE TO DIE WITHOUT CHRIST. VERY VERY DANGEROUS.

Everything I am telling you is based on divine revelation and divine visions. I don't need to prove this to you. I can't reduce divine revelations to elemental literature.

As a Christian, living a sinful and unrighteous life is extremely dangerous for you. This world is extremely spiritual. It is under the control of divine beings both positive and negative. Humans are too small in the grand scheme of things.

If you are reading this and you are a witch, warlock, wizard or even using any medium to succeed or prosper in life, you are taking an extreme risk. Those things are setting you up for certain death. It happens very fast and you won't even know when it happens.

Please discard those mediums and shortcuts like black soap or any other thing immediately. Take them back to the native doctor, alfa or herbalist that gave them to you. Tell him to unbind you from them. Pay if you have to pay.

You may go back to square one in life. But it is far better for you in view of eternity. Let him who has ears listen.

MaxInDHouse:
Ever seen a single representative of any of these religions you mentioned at your doorstep to discuss with you about his or her god?

Well this is what the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob said about those gods in ancient times dragging supremacy with Him:

Their idols are silver and gold, The work of human hands.  A mouth they have, but they cannot speak; Eyes, but they cannot see; Ears they have, but they cannot hear; A nose, but they cannot smell; Hands they have, but they cannot feel; Feet, but they cannot walk; They make no sound with their throat. The people who make them will become just like them, As will all those who trust in them. Psalms 115:4-8

The highlighted in blue makes perfect sense to me, those gods are dumb, blind, deaf, can't perceive anything odor, can't touch, can't walk, they can't even make any sound so the true God said those trusting (believing) in them will later become like these dead gods!

Praise the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob because this thing we are reading today was written when worshipers of all these gods were dragging territories with great armies back then claiming their gods are great but what about today? TheDevilsBride can only mention their names their worshipers have become dumb, blind, deaf, no sense of smell, no feelings, immobile, can't even make any sound again while the worshipers of Jehovah are going all over the earth to make disciples preaching and teaching globally about the Kingdom of Christ who is the son of JEHOVAH!

1. How do you know your god exists, never mind, breathing, smelling, eating etc?
2. Also Mormons knock on doors too. So that makes them legit, no?

MaxInDHouse:
He has never spoken directly to anyone who is challenging His authority so your argument is dead on arrival.
As He claimed some 2,700 years ago it's obvious now that all those gods your are trying to equate with Him are nothing but the works of man's hands.
Let their worshipers MOVE to places and TALK to people about their gods that's all we are asking if truly their gods were real like the One who is able to speak and fulfill what He promised:

No weapon formed against you will have any success, And you will condemn any tongue that rises up against you in the judgment. This is the heritage of the servants of Jehovah, And their righteousness is from me,” declares Jehovah. Isaiah 54:17

It's just a pity that you an atheist is the one trying to speak for the gods you don't even believe (trust) please where are their worshipers as in those trusting (believing) in them?

Praise Jehovah! They have all become like their gods! Psalms 115:8

Sometimes it would be a good idea to look at your posts and check whether they make sense.
You said he never spoke to anyone challenging his authority but in the book of Job, not only did he speak with his arch adversary, Satan, the later was chilling with him and his angels, even doing the occasional bet using pawns like Job. They parleyed like proper buddies!
Also what you said about other gods is the exact stuff they say about you christians. So who do we believe? And why?

MaxInDHouse:
Mr & Mrs Atheists!
God doesn't speak to anyone who don't believe in His existence Paul believe God exists the reason why he was fighting those he thought were impostors unlike you people saying "there is no god"

So bring the example of someone who doesn't believe that God exists and how God spoke to such a person then i will agree with you that you know what you are demanding.

You're one cunning lil dude aint you
You went from 'God doesn't talk to those challenging his authority' to 'God doesn't talk to those who don't believe he exists'. Quote disingenuous of you
Anyway, in the Bible, there were no atheists, so we wouldn't know if yhwh woulda spoken to them or not.
So how did u arrive at the conclusion that yhwh don't talk to no atheists(but he freely parleys with the 'god' of atheists, Satan)?

MaxInDHouse:
Funny atheists!
Jehovah has promised that even His own true worshipers in the last days will hear no direct words from Him other than what has been written by prophets.
So how do we know for sure that God is in our midst?
He said:


“You are my witnesses,” declares the Lord, “and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me. ‭Isaiah 43:10 NIV‬


So if God is not speaking with His own worshipers but promised us that it's our unity and peace that will serve as proof of His presence in our midst {Isaiah 2:2-4} how do you expect Him to start speaking with atheists who don't even believe He exists?
For what purpose?

OK because He lacks worshipers who will inherit what He promised shey?


You people are just funny!

Can you quote where yhwh said the bolded in the babble?

LordReed:
It's you who needs to humble himself and admit you goofed and had to switch tracks several times. I bet you a million dollars if we had found an example to counter you last excuse, you would have reached for yet another. That is not a sign of honesty or humility.

That's how he rolls, dude is a dishonest debater

MaxInDHouse:
You guys are very funny walahi talahi!

Challenging God's authority to you mean someone who is fighting for his own God against another God whereas in reality it means someone who doesn't believe in the existence of supernatural because whether it's the God of Israel or that of Greek they are all Gods so you can't equate such a person with you guys.

Do you get it now?

What did you say here

MaxInDHouse:
God never spoke to anyone who doesn't believe in the existence of supernaturals!

Whoa! What a leap of goalpost!
From yhwh not talking to those challenging him to him not talking to those that don't believe supernaturals!
What else is bulging in that wonderful ever-resourceful ass of yours?

MaxInDHouse:
Back and forth shey?

He is ALMIGHTY not OMNIPOTENT!

I now understand why your sect is so much against education.
Illiteracy is what they require to thrive cos you can't tell me a grown ass man that says he's a grandfather and ex-intelligence, doesn't know almighty, omnipotent and all-powerful are the same. And whats worse, we have shown you countless times evidence that they are the same

DeepSightZ:
Sweet Jesus. You are actually justifying the mass murder of infants. There is nothing you will not defend. I am sure if your Bible says that Alhaji Maiguno should rape your wife, mother and sister seven times a day, you will find a way to justify it.

Of course, they'll justify it. Christians justify Abraham nearly slitting his son's throat, despite the fact the poor boy would end with PTSD for the rest of his life(even though the story never happened )

MaxInDHouse:
No wahala at least you have known the reason why God ordered Israelites to kill all the Amalekites. Go and explain to your fellow atheists that a Bible believer has helped you to unravel the secret!

Are you aware Israelites had peaceful neighbours but Yhwh still wanted them dead?

DeepSightZ:
The quotes are there. I presented them to you. If you dont realise those are questions, thats up to you. Obviously you are afraid.

This is MadMax the JW dude that says child molesta.tion is normal. So these actions you posted are regular and open season for him

MaxInDHouse:
So if you're truly convinced deep down in your heart that it's all imagination then you don't have to join those who are imagining nah.
Or are you still in doubt regarding your stand?

Who said we wanna join you deluded lots? Look at the topic. It clearly denigrates atheists, and you expect atheists to just keep mum. When people talk bullshit about JWs don't you jump into the thread, arms flailing?

MaxInDHouse:
If you want to ask questions like an adult you supposed to use your own words and thoughts in a law court if you present such a case it will be dismissed instantly because it simply means you are just like a puppet in the hands of the real accuser.

He's quoting someone and has to append the original author. I know u r ignorant about plagiarism, just like you don't know that almighty, omnipotent and all-powerful are the same.

MaxInDHouse:
How many times have you come across worshipers of these gods whether in your school, neighborhood or here on Nairaland?
That's what i mean Sir!

You like speaking from both sides of your mouth. If I ask you now about why JW numbers are so small you'd start talking about how numbers don't matter. Yet here you are talking about how numbers matter.

BTW paganism is seeing a resurgence and the number of adherents are increasing.

MaxInDHouse:
If you've not met anyone who will answer you politely despite your haughtiness i'm different Sir! 1Peter 3:15

Back to your question:

Israelites supposed to teach their babies from infancy God's laws {Deuteronomy 6:6-7} and it's a crime to insult an elderly person not to talk of the messenger of their God sent to deliver God's message to them. So God killed those children as punishment for their parents who failed to inculcate in them respect for elderly ones:

“Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live a long time in the land that Jehovah your God is giving you," Exodus 20:12

Do you notice the highlighted in blue?

Well it's on that same land that this boys were insulting not just an elderly person but a prophet of that same God.

Now according to the constitution given to that nation do such children deserve to live long on that same land?

Wonderful! Another banger from the stables of MadMax!
1. So you agree that capital punishment of bears mauling children, is a just punishment for them?
2. So you agree that you should have been killed when you mocked 'church elders appointed by Yhwh'?

MaxInDHouse:
How many times have you come across worshipers of these gods whether in your school, neighborhood or here on Nairaland?
That's what i mean Sir!

I live in Nigeria. I haven't encountered any Hindu or Buddhist personally. Does it mean the adherents of these religions don't exist? No.
MadMax pray tell, what did JW elders do to your brain?

jaephoenix:
Of course, they'll justify it. Christians justify Abraham nearly slitting his son's throat, despite the fact the poor boy would end with PTSD for the rest of his life(even though the story never happened )

Sir, all those things have been abolished with the coming of Christ. Please stop allowing dark energy to make you focus on bad events in the Bible. There are so many good things that happened in the Bible. Focus on them if you can.

There is no darkness without light. You already know this.

Check Nairaland front page. So many bad news with few good news. I never click on those bad news. You know why? Those things attract demons and spiritual warlocks. But you will never agree to this. Those demons are there. But you don't see them.

Check the views of the good news. You will see 2,000.

Also check the views of the bad news. You will see 60,000. Why?

Because people are drawn to dark events through satanic manipulation. This is what the devil wants.

If you hear that a man planted 10 trees at Ikeja, will you open that news? Never.

But if you hear that same man ripped open the tummy of a pregnant woman at Agidingbi roundabout and ate the baby, I can bet everything you will open that thread 50 times and even show friends and family.

Why do you think Seun who is allegedly an Atheist promotes so much bad news on his site? Because it brings him more of a demon called MAMMON otherwise known as money.

If a True Christian (Emphasis on True) owned Nairaland, do you really think it will be filled with so much bad news?

SeraphicWind:
Sir, all those things have been abolished with the coming of Christ. Please stop allowing dark energy to make you focus on bad events in the Bible. There are so many good things that happened in the Bible. Focus on them if you can.

There is no darkness without light. You already know this.

Check Nairaland front page. So many bad news with few good news. I never click on those bad news. You know why? Those things attract demons and spiritual warlocks. But you will never agree to this. Those demons are there. But you don't see them.

Check the views of the good news. You will see 2,000.

Also check the views of the bad news. You will see 60,000. Why?

Because people are drawn to dark events through satanic manipulation. This is what the devil wants.

If you hear that a man planted 10 trees at Ikeja, will you open that news? Never.

But if you hear that same man ripped open the tummy of a pregnant woman at Agidingbi roundabout and ate the baby, I can bet everything you will open that thread 50 times and even show friends and family.

Why do you think Seun who is allegedly an Atheist promotes so much bad news on his site? Because it brings him more of a demon called MAMMON otherwise known as money.

If a True Christian (Emphasis on True) owned Nairaland, do you really think it will be filled with so much bad news?

Do you hate money?