₦airaland Forum

Janosky:
1.
John 3:16. John 5:37. John 13:16, Jesus said the God Almighty didn't send himself, contrary to your claim.

2.
You said the Rich man (God Almighty) sent his Son.
Nah you dey deceive yourself that the Rich man is his Son.

Person wey say him get brain wey no dey "cherry pick Bible".

You've already been told these things can NOT be viewed from human perspective. They are beyond human comprehension. You accept that God can listen to millions of contradictory prayers simultaneously, and accept that God can be in heaven and in each of us at same time, yet find it difficult to accept that God the Father can be in heaven while God the Son is on earth at same time! Wehdone

FreeIgboho:
Yep, they're so satirical you have no rebuttal

I do but it would a waste of time to actually respond to something so patently ludicrous.

LordReed:
I do but it would a waste of time to actually respond to something so patently ludicrous.

You can respond VERY briefly.
What would it take to convince you that someone is God (bearing in mind that you don't have the foggiest idea what/who God is nor can you in any way describe him or any of his attributes).
Personally, if ALL that happened with Jesus happens with ANY person I'd accept that the person is God.

FreeIgboho:
Personally, if ALL that happened with Jesus happens with ANY person I'd accept that the person is God.

Point of correction: Isn't what HAPPENED with Jesus but How the scripture REVEALED who He was.

Emusan:
Point of correction: Isn't what HAPPENED with Jesus but How the scripture REVEALED who He was.

The basic assumption of this thread is that the Bible is approximately accurate except for minor inconsistencies on inconsequential things

FreeIgboho:
The basic assumption of this thread is that the Bible is approximately accurate except for minor inconsistencies on inconsequential things

Yeah, I agreed with you that Bible is accurate.

My point is, Being God isn't what happened with Jesus but the scripture revealed that Jesus is Almighty God.

FreeIgboho:
You can respond VERY briefly.
What would it take to convince you that someone is God (bearing in mind that you don't have the foggiest idea what/who God is nor can you in any way describe him or any of his attributes).
Personally, if ALL that happened with Jesus happens with ANY person I'd accept that the person is God.

The bolded is why I am an Igtheist. The concept of gods in general is incoherent. It is baby talk trying to masquerade as serious thought.

Nothing happened is the point. Those things are just embellished stories.

FreeIgboho:
You can respond VERY briefly.
What would it take to convince you that someone is God (bearing in mind that you don't have the foggiest idea what/who God is nor can you in any way describe him or any of his attributes).
Personally, if ALL that happened with Jesus happens with ANY person I'd accept that the person is God.

1. How do you verify what happened with Jesus?
2. Since you say we can have no clue what God's attributes are, why would you then accept any miracle worker to be God? That means you know God's attributes.

LordReed:
The bolded is why I am an Igtheist. The concept of gods in general is incoherent. It is baby talk trying to masquerade as serious thought.

If by God we mean a source of all else that exists, that is not incoherent, and that is the fundamental idea most people have in mind when they speak of God.

Nothing happened is the point. Those things are just embellished stories.

Agreed.

DeepSight:
If by God we mean a source of all else that exists, that is not incoherent, and that is the fundamental idea most people have in mind when they speak of God.

Except they go further and add all these attributes to the god such that even when speaking amongst themselves they cannot agree on what the god(s) are.

BTW why call the source of all things a god (anthropomorphised one at that). The sun is the source of heat and energy for our solar system does that make it a god? Why can't the source of all things just be some natural phenomenon?

LordReed:
Except they go further and add all these attributes to the god such that even when speaking amongst themselves they cannot agree on what the god(s) are.

I have to agree. This is the problem. So much so that they even add the most petty human attributes such as jealousy and anger.

BTW why call the source of all things a god (anthropomorphised one at that).

The source of all things can indeed be called God thats not a problem. The problem us anthropormorphising it.

The sun is the source of heat and energy for our solar system does that make it a god?

It was considered a god in a great many cultures.

Why can't the source of all things just be some natural phenomenon?

Remember I told you that for me, even God can only be natural. Being the deault state of root reality.

DeepSight:
I have to agree. This is the problem. So much so that they even add the most petty human attributes such as jealousy and anger.



The source of all things can indeed be called God thats not a problem. The problem us anthropormorphising it.



It was considered a god in a great many cultures.



Remember I told you that for me, even God can only be natural. Being the deault state of root reality.

You didn’t answer the question "why call it a god"? Calling the sun a god didn’t make it a being, it remained what it is so what does calling this source of everything a god change?

LordReed:
You didn’t answer the question "why call it a god"? Calling the sun a god didn’t make it a being, it remained what it is so what does calling this source of everything a god change?

But you surely know that in several world views such objects are considered living beings.

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Panpsychism: This is the most direct and widely used term in contemporary philosophy for the view that mind or a mind-like aspect is a fundamental and ubiquitous feature of reality. It posits that consciousness or subjective experience is present, in some form, in a wide range of natural entities, including those traditionally considered inanimate, such as fundamental particles.

Hylozoism: This philosophical doctrine holds that all matter is alive or animated. While closely related to panpsychism, hylozoism often emphasizes the "life" aspect of matter, whereas panpsychism focuses more specifically on "mind" or "consciousness." Historically, early Greek philosophers like Thales are often described as hylozoists.

Animism: This term is primarily used in anthropology of religion to describe belief systems where objects, places, and creatures all possess a distinct spiritual essence. Animism perceives all things—animals, plants, rocks, rivers, etc.—as being animated, having agency and free will. While it shares the idea of "aliveness" or "spirit" in inanimate objects with hylozoism and panpsychism, it is generally discussed within a religious or spiritual context rather than as a purely philosophical theory of consciousness.

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*Culled.

DeepSight:
But you surely know that in several world views such objects are considered living beings.

---------------------------

Panpsychism: This is the most direct and widely used term in contemporary philosophy for the view that mind or a mind-like aspect is a fundamental and ubiquitous feature of reality. It posits that consciousness or subjective experience is present, in some form, in a wide range of natural entities, including those traditionally considered inanimate, such as fundamental particles.

Hylozoism: This philosophical doctrine holds that all matter is alive or animated. While closely related to panpsychism, hylozoism often emphasizes the "life" aspect of matter, whereas panpsychism focuses more specifically on "mind" or "consciousness." Historically, early Greek philosophers like Thales are often described as hylozoists.

Animism: This term is primarily used in anthropology of religion to describe belief systems where objects, places, and creatures all possess a distinct spiritual essence. Animism perceives all things—animals, plants, rocks, rivers, etc.—as being animated, having agency and free will. While it shares the idea of "aliveness" or "spirit" in inanimate objects with hylozoism and panpsychism, it is generally discussed within a religious or spiritual context rather than as a purely philosophical theory of consciousness.

-------------------------------------
*Culled.

You still haven't answered my question.

BTW all these just adds to the incoherence.

LordReed:
You still haven't answered my question.

BTW all these just adds to the incoherence.

Alright. Lets examine a number of things first.

1. Must a God be a being in the way we understand beings?
2. What is a being in the first place? What qualifies as a being?

LordReed:
The bolded is why I am an Igtheist. The concept of gods in general is incoherent. It is baby talk trying to masquerade as serious thought.

Nothing happened is the point. Those things are just embellished stories.

If everything happened as stated in the Bible would you believe Jesus is God?

By the way you were asked what would convince you that someone is God, not whether it is incoherent or not. Everything ought be incoherent to you not just God, seeing that you're on this speck of dust of a planet, not knowing where you are, why you are here, or if you're actually here, and given very limited senses, and very limited brain that can easily be manipulated. That's why you were not asked about coherence.

Emusan:
Yeah, I agreed with you that Bible is accurate.

My point is, Being God isn't what happened with Jesus but the scripture revealed that Jesus is Almighty God.

What convinces me personally is how things happened with him in the Bible and until now over 2 thousand years later. He is God. I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "Almighty"

DeepSight:
1. How do you verify what happened with Jesus?
2. Since you say we can have no clue what God's attributes are, why would you then accept any miracle worker to be God? That means you know God's attributes.

1. We believe the Bible is essentially true. That's what the thread is based on. If you believe the Bible is a pack of lies then we don't have a thread.
2. My belief is NOT based on just what he himself said and did, but on what was said about him long before he was born, the special events surrounding his birth, how he was worshipped as an infant by people with spiritual insight, and finally what has happened with him since his death and resurrection.

FreeIgboho:
1. We believe the Bible is essentially true. That's what the thread is based on. If you believe the Bible is a pack of lies then we don't have a thread.
2. My belief is NOT based on just what he himself said and did, but on what was said about him long before he was born, the special events surrounding his birth, how he was worshipped as an infant by people with spiritual insight, and finally what has happened with him since his death and resurrection.

You have not addressed the contradiction: if the attributes of God cannot be known, how can you use any attributes of Jesus (including prophecy about him, people worshipping him, etc) to conclude he is God?

DeepSight:
You have not addressed the contradiction: if the attributes of God cannot be known, how can you use any attributes of Jesus (including prophecy about him, people worshipping him, etc) to conclude he is God?

Maybe we ought define what we mean by attributes. If someone says you're a thief, that's not an attribute of yours. Same way if someone calls your ma a ho or beats up your child. Pertaining to God, attributes we assign him are obvious - omnipotence, omniscience, never prays, etc

FreeIgboho:
Maybe we ought define what we mean by attributes. If someone says you're a thief, that's not an attribute of yours. Same way if someone calls your ma a ho or beats up your child. Pertaining to God, attributes we assign him are obvious - omnipotence, omniscience, never prays,

So you know the attributes of God?
I hope you now those three attriutes in bold are incompatible with Jesus?

DeepSight:
So you know the attributes of God?
I hope you now those three attriutes in bold are incompatible with Jesus?

Are you just joking or what?

FreeIgboho:
Are you just joking or what?

Joking?

Omnipotence - Jesus said he can do nothing without the one who sent him.

Omniscience - Jesus said he does not know the day and hour, only the Father knows it.

Never prays - Jesus prayed all the time, especially at Gethsemane when he said "not as I will but as thou wilt."

Who is joking?

DeepSight:
Joking?

Omnipotence - Jesus said he can do nothing without the one who sent him.

Omniscience - Jesus said he does not know the day and hour, only the Father knows it.

Never prays - Jesus prayed all the time, especially at Gethsemane when he said "not as I will but as thou wilt."

Who is joking?

Did you read the OP of this thread at all? Why not go back and read the whole thing? Here's an excerpt:

2) You don't have the foggiest idea what God's attributes are. So forget all the attributes you have in your head - they were assigned by man. You simply don't have the foggiest idea what God's attributes are or are not. So forget all attributes you assign to God!

3) If God is explained to you as straight forward and quite uncomplicated, you can be sure they are giving u man's version of God, NOT God as he is.

4) God exists in a dimension you can neither visualize, explain, nor comprehend.

FreeIgboho:
Did you read the OP of this thread at all? Why not go back and read the whole thing? Here's an excerpt:

2) You don't have the foggiest idea what God's attributes are. So forget all the attributes you have in your head - they were assigned by man. You simply don't have the foggiest idea what God's attributes are or are not. So forget all attributes you assign to God!

3) If God is explained to you as straight forward and quite uncomplicated, you can be sure they are giving u man's version of God, NOT God as he is.

4) God exists in a dimension you can neither visualize, explain, nor comprehend.

If the foregoing is true how come you seem to know what God's attributes are?

DeepSight:
If the foregoing is true how come you seem to know what God's attributes are?

I'm trying my very best not to call you slow but you're not helping at all.
(Patiently) Those are attributes traditionally assigned to God by MAN! Go read the OP, it is clearly stated there. Whew!

Here's another excerpt from the OP:

5) So how do you know God? The ONLY way is the way it happened with Jesus. ANYONE that all those things happened with is God the Son of God. You can't know him any other way. You can't know him by logic, reasoning, or attributes. THAT IS THE ONLY WAY!!

FreeIgboho:
I'm trying my very best not to call you slow but you're not helping at all.
(Patiently) Those are attributes traditionally assigned to God by MAN! Go read the OP, it is clearly stated there. Whew!

Here's another excerpt from the OP:

5) So how do you know God? The ONLY way is the way it happened with Jesus. ANYONE that all those things happened with is God the Son of God. You can't know him any other way. You can't know him by logic, reasoning, or attributes. THAT IS THE ONLY WAY!!

You are free to call me slow, I don't mind.

So let's start again. Are you saying you can know the attributes of God through Jesus Christ?

DeepSight:
Alright. Lets examine a number of things first.

1. Must a God be a being in the way we understand beings?
2. What is a being in the first place? What qualifies as a being?

Dude answer the question first before you ask me one.

LordReed:
Dude answer the question first before you ask me one.

Alright. To be clear, here is your question -

You didn’t answer the question "why call it a god"?

Because the most critical aspect of the definition of, and understanding of the word "God" throughout history has been that which is the source of all other existence and life.

I extract herewith a definition from the dictionary -

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/god

------------------------------------------------

god
noun
ˈgäd also ˈgȯd
pluralgods
Synonyms of god
1
God : the supreme or ultimate reality: such as
a
: the being perfect in power, wisdom, and goodness who is worshipped (as in Judaism, Christianity, Islam, and Hinduism) as creator and ruler of the universe
Throughout the patristic and medieval periods, Christian theologians taught that God created the universe …
—Jame Schaefer
… the Supreme Being or God, the personal form of the Ultimate Reality, is conceived by Hindus as having various aspects.
—Sunita Pant Bansal
b
Christian Science : the incorporeal divine Principle ruling over all as eternal Spirit : infinite Mind
2
or less commonly God : a being or object that is worshipped as having more than natural attributes and powers
specifically : one controlling a particular aspect or part of reality
Greek gods of love and war
3
: a person or thing of supreme value
had photos of baseball's gods pinned to his bedroom wall
4
: a powerful ruler
Hollywood gods that control our movies' fates

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You can see the very first line which I have highlighted. No matter how you spin it, and no matter all the thousands of ridiculous attributes which different people add to it, the fundamental idea has always been that of an ultimate creator or source of all else that exists. There. That is why such a source is called "God."

Now can you answer my own questions so we can get down to the issue of it being a "being."
Those questions are not to argue - they are only to get definitions right so we dont get twisted as we did with objective and subjective morality.

FreeIgboho:
If everything happened as stated in the Bible would you believe Jesus is God?

If there was evidence they did, most likely i would.

By the way you were asked what would convince you that someone is God, not whether it is incoherent or not. Everything ought be incoherent to you not just God, seeing that you're on this speck of dust of a planet, not knowing where you are, why you are here, or if you're actually here, and given very limited senses, and very limited brain that can easily be manipulated. That's why you were not asked about coherence.

If that person can do something that according to the framework of belief that only a god could do like make the sun to "stand still" without killing everything on the earth, I would be convinced they are probably what they say they are.

Everything is not incoherent because I have a sane mind that can evaluate reality with good epistemological frameworks. Yes my brain can be manipulated but it is because there are good epistemological frameworks that we know that. If you have faulty epistemology and are unable to properly evaluate reality thats a you problem not an us problem.

LordReed:
If there was evidence they did, most likely i would.

Be kiaful oh. No go march banana peel.

Even if everything written in the Bible were true, it would not ground Jesus being God. The self same Bible argues powerfully against the precept in dozens of passages.