₦airaland Forum

DeepSight:
Alright. To be clear, here is your question -



Because the most critical aspect of the definition of, and understanding of the word "God" throughout history has been that which is the source of all other existence and life.

I extract herewith a definition from the dictionary -

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/god

------------------------------------------------

god
noun
ˈgäd also ˈgȯd
pluralgods
Synonyms of god
1
God : the supreme or ultimate reality: such as
a
: the being perfect in power, wisdom, and goodness who is worshipped (as in Judaism, Christianity, Islam, and Hinduism) as creator and ruler of the universe
Throughout the patristic and medieval periods, Christian theologians taught that God created the universe …
—Jame Schaefer
… the Supreme Being or God, the personal form of the Ultimate Reality, is conceived by Hindus as having various aspects.
—Sunita Pant Bansal
b
Christian Science : the incorporeal divine Principle ruling over all as eternal Spirit : infinite Mind
2
or less commonly God : a being or object that is worshipped as having more than natural attributes and powers
specifically : one controlling a particular aspect or part of reality
Greek gods of love and war
3
: a person or thing of supreme value
had photos of baseball's gods pinned to his bedroom wall
4
: a powerful ruler
Hollywood gods that control our movies' fates

------------------------------

You can see the very first line which I have highlighted. No matter how you spin it, and no matter all the thousands of ridiculous attributes which different people add to it, the fundamental idea has always been that of an ultimate creator or source of all else that exists. There. That is why such a source is called "God."

Now can you answer my own questions so we can get down to the issue of it being a "being."
Those questions are not to argue - they are only to get definitions right so we dont get twisted as we did with objective and subjective morality.

Well then I call it the universe and have no reason to think of it as a god or a type of being.

DeepSight:
Alright. Lets examine a number of things first.

1. Must a God be a being in the way we understand beings?
2. What is a being in the first place? What qualifies as a being?

1. I do not know what a god is supposed to be. Most people say they are beings but the attributes dissolve into incoherence so it is not clear to me what a god is suppose to be.

2. A being in the way we a talking about it here is an existing individual with a mind and will. So the sun may exist but is not a being. Humans, animals and potentially other forms of life we do not yet know about but have these 3 attributes are beings.

DeepSight:
Be kiaful oh. No go march banana peel.

Even if everything written in the Bible were true, it would not ground Jesus being God. The self same Bible argues powerfully against the precept in dozens of passages.

Well he said IF and I am willing to grant the supposition. Interpreting it as accent to the belief will be a failure of reasoning on the persons part not mine.

Actually it does argue in favour of it. It is modern believers who have turned their god into some unimaginable thing. The Old Testament had the god appear on the earth physically several times.

LordReed:
Well he said IF and I am willing to grant the supposition. Interpreting it as accent to the belief will be a failure of reasoning on the persons part not mine.

Actually it does argue in favour of it. It is modern believers who have turned their god into some unimaginable thing. The Old Testament had the god appear on the earth physically several times.

The point is if we are to presume all that is in the Bible to be true, we should also presume true the many passages that outrightly deny the idea that Jesus is God. Including his own denials of same.

LordReed:
Well then I call it the universe and have no reason to think of it as a god or a type of being.

I think I may have touched on this point with you in the past, so at the risk of repeating myself - the source of all things cannot be physical. This is because -

1. The source of all things must be eternal in the past
2. A thing which is eternal in the past must be immutable
3. Physical things - such as the universe - are mutable
4. Therefore the source of all things must be intangible
5. Ergo the universe cannot be the source of all things

I suspect this may be problematic for you - but its very simple and logical really.

1. I do not know what a god is supposed to be. Most people say they are beings but the attributes dissolve into incoherence so it is not clear to me what a god is suppose to be.

Here's a trick - start from simplicity and dont bother yourself with what "most people say." And in all simplicity, the most fundamental definition of God is that of creator or source of all else that exists.

2. A being in the way we a talking about it here is an existing individual with a mind and will. So the sun may exist but is not a being. Humans, animals and potentially other forms of life we do not yet know about but have these 3 attributes are beings.

Do you consider that that microscopic organisms can be beings? They certainly can fit into your tripartite conditions. Now, lets take it further. Is it not the case that groups of microscopic and even unicellular organisms come together to form multicellular beings? You yourself, in terms of your body, are an agglomeration of trillions of different kinds of cells, each of which has staggering components and factors built into it. Now one step further again - when you talk about a mind and will - is there not such a thing as a hive mind? A group mind and will, as happens with say, ants or bees? Now one step further again, so you see where I am going - if all this is true, why is it necessarily the case that God as a being must be an individual in the way we understand and use the word?

DeepSight:
I think I may have touched on this point with you in the past, so at the risk of repeating myself - the source of all things cannot be physical. This is because -

1. The source of all things must be eternal in the past
2. A thing which is eternal in the past must be immutable
3. Physical things - such as the universe - are mutable
4. Therefore the source of all things must be intangible
5. Ergo the universe cannot be the source of all things

I suspect this may be problematic for you - but its very simple and logical really.

Of course it is problematic because it is at best speculation. You have no evidence outside of the universe itself. So where do you get the basis for thinking there is a nonphysical source of the universe?

Here's a trick - start from simplicity and dont bother yourself with what "most people say." And in all simplicity, the most fundamental definition of God is that of creator or source of all else that exists.

That simplicity leads me to call it nothing other than the universe. I have no reason to call it a god becuase I have simplified it.

Do you consider that that microscopic organisms can be beings? They certainly can fit into your tripartite conditions. Now, lets take it further. Is it not the case that groups of microscopic and even unicellular organisms come together to form multicellular beings? You yourself, in terms of your body, are an agglomeration of trillions of different kinds of cells, each of which has staggering components and factors built into it. Now one step further again - when you talk about a mind and will - is there not such a thing as a hive mind? A group mind and will, as happens with say, ants or bees? Now one step further again, so you see where I am going - if all this is true, why is it necessarily the case that God as a being must be an individual in the way we understand and use the word?

No i don't consider them beings since they have no minds or wills.

Hive minds only exist in scifi. Bees and other eusocial animals have "organised" cooperation.

It doesn't matter what makes up the individual as long as those 3 attributes can be demonstrated.

DeepSight:
The point is if we are to presume all that is in the Bible to be true, we should also presume true the many passages that outrightly deny the idea that Jesus is God. Including his own denials of same.

Where in the Bible does Jesus deny he is god?

LordReed:
Where in the Bible does Jesus deny he is god?

I will give you both verses were the Bible says so and where Jesus himself says so - since the question is about the whole of the Bible being true - (I have highlighted important words of Jesus himself in red) -

1 - I Tim. 2:5: - For there is one God, and one Mediator of God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus Christ”


2 - John 14:28 – “I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I”.


3 - I Cor. 11:3 - “But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God “


4 - Eph. 1:15 - 17. - “15 Therefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints,16 do not cease to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers: 17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him”


5 - I Pet 1:3 - "Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ"


6 - Mark 10:18 - “So Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God.”


7 - I Cor. 15:28 - “Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.”


8 - John 15:1 – 10:“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 “Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;[a] and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 “You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 “Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me."

5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 “If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 “If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you. 8 “By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples. 9 “As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love. 10 “If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.


9 - John 20:17 – “Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.’”


10 - John 17:1 - 8 – “1 Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You, 2 “as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should[a] give eternal life to as many as You have given Him. 3 “And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. 4 “I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do. 5 “And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.”

6 “I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. 7 “Now they have known that all things which You have given Me are from You. 8 “For I have given to them the words which You have given Me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came forth from You; and they have believed that You sent Me."

11 - Mark 13:32 - “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.”

12 - Acts 2:22 – 24 “Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know— 23 “Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken[b] by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death; 24 “whom God raised up, having loosed the pains of death, because it was not possible that He should be held by it.


13 - Luke 22:41 - 42 – “41 And He was withdrawn from them about a stone’s throw, and He knelt down and prayed, 42saying, “Father, if it is Your will, take this cup away from Me; nevertheless not My will, but Yours, be done.” (The Prayer in Gethsemane).


14 - John 8:40 - “But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this.”


15 - Luke 23:32 - 34 – “There were also two others, criminals, led with Him to be put to death. 33 And when they had come to the place called Calvary, there they crucified Him, and the criminals, one on the right hand and the other on the left. 34 Then Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they do.”


16 - Matt 21:33 – 42 “33 Hear another parable: There was a certain landowner who planted a vineyard and set a hedge around it, dug a winepress in it and built a tower. And he leased it to vinedressers and went into a far country. 34 “Now when vintage–time drew near, he sent his servants to the vinedressers, that they might receive its fruit. 35 “And the vinedressers took his servants, beat one, killed one, and stoned another.

36 “Again he sent other servants, more than the first, and they did likewise to them. 37 “Then last of all he sent his son to them, saying, ‘They will respect my son.’ 38 “But when the vinedressers saw the son, they said among themselves, ‘This is the heir. Come, let us kill him and seize his inheritance.’ 39 “So they took him and cast him out of the vineyard and killed him.

40 “Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vinedressers?”

41 They said to Him, “He will destroy those wicked men miserably, and lease his vineyard to other vinedressers who will render to him the fruits in their seasons.”

42 Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures:
‘The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone.
This was the Lord’s doing,
And it is marvelous in our eyes’

(The Parable of the Vineyard)


17 - Matt 27:45 – 46 “45 Now from the sixth hour until the ninth hour there was darkness over all the land. 46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?” that is, “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?”


18 – Mark 16:19 – “So then, after the Lord had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God.” [And all other scripture which refers to Christ as sitting at the Right Hand Side of God, including Psalm 110:1, and all similar scripture in the Book of Revelation].


19 - John 3:16 - “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 “For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. [Only Begotten Son - "Monogenes" - and all other verses in scripture where the term "monogenes" i.e: "only begotten" is used].


20 - Deuteronomy 6:4 - "Hear o Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is One."

DeepSight:
I will give you both verses were the Bible says so and where Jesus himself says so - since the question is about the whole of the Bible being true - (I have highlighted important words of Jesus himself in red) -

1 - I Tim. 2:5: - For there is one God, and one Mediator of God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus Christ”


2 - John 14:28 – “I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I”.


3 - I Cor. 11:3 - “But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God “


4 - Eph. 1:15 - 17. - “15 Therefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints,16 do not cease to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers: 17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him”


5 - I Pet 1:3 - "Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ"


6 - Mark 10:18 - “So Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God.”


7 - I Cor. 15:28 - “Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.”


8 - John 15:1 – 10:“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 “Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;[a] and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 “You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 “Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me."

5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 “If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 “If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you. 8 “By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples. 9 “As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love. 10 “If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.


9 - John 20:17 – “Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.’”


10 - John 17:1 - 8 – “1 Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You, 2 “as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should[a] give eternal life to as many as You have given Him. 3 “And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. 4 “I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do. 5 “And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.”

6 “I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. 7 “Now they have known that all things which You have given Me are from You. 8 “For I have given to them the words which You have given Me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came forth from You; and they have believed that You sent Me."

11 - Mark 13:32 - “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.”

12 - Acts 2:22 – 24 “Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know— 23 “Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken[b] by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death; 24 “whom God raised up, having loosed the pains of death, because it was not possible that He should be held by it.


13 - Luke 22:41 - 42 – “41 And He was withdrawn from them about a stone’s throw, and He knelt down and prayed, 42saying, “Father, if it is Your will, take this cup away from Me; nevertheless not My will, but Yours, be done.” (The Prayer in Gethsemane).


14 - John 8:40 - “But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this.”


15 - Luke 23:32 - 34 – “There were also two others, criminals, led with Him to be put to death. 33 And when they had come to the place called Calvary, there they crucified Him, and the criminals, one on the right hand and the other on the left. 34 Then Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they do.”


16 - Matt 21:33 – 42 “33 Hear another parable: There was a certain landowner who planted a vineyard and set a hedge around it, dug a winepress in it and built a tower. And he leased it to vinedressers and went into a far country. 34 “Now when vintage–time drew near, he sent his servants to the vinedressers, that they might receive its fruit. 35 “And the vinedressers took his servants, beat one, killed one, and stoned another.

36 “Again he sent other servants, more than the first, and they did likewise to them. 37 “Then last of all he sent his son to them, saying, ‘They will respect my son.’ 38 “But when the vinedressers saw the son, they said among themselves, ‘This is the heir. Come, let us kill him and seize his inheritance.’ 39 “So they took him and cast him out of the vineyard and killed him.

40 “Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vinedressers?”

41 They said to Him, “He will destroy those wicked men miserably, and lease his vineyard to other vinedressers who will render to him the fruits in their seasons.”

42 Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures:
‘The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone.
This was the Lord’s doing,
And it is marvelous in our eyes’

(The Parable of the Vineyard)


17 - Matt 27:45 – 46 “45 Now from the sixth hour until the ninth hour there was darkness over all the land. 46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?” that is, “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?”


18 – Mark 16:19 – “So then, after the Lord had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God.” [And all other scripture which refers to Christ as sitting at the Right Hand Side of God, including Psalm 110:1, and all similar scripture in the Book of Revelation].


19 - John 3:16 - “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 “For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. [Only Begotten Son - "Monogenes" - and all other verses in scripture where the term "monogenes" i.e: "only begotten" is used].


20 - Deuteronomy 6:4 - "Hear o Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is One."

I'll give it to you but strictly speaking these aren't denials which is why Christians can claim that Jesus is god via the Trinity doctrine. However to be clear I do agree that Jesus is not the god.

LordReed:
I'll give it to you but strictly speaking these aren't denials which is why Christians can claim that Jesus is god via the Trinity doctrine. However to be clear I do agree that Jesus is not the god.

Look at the red highlights. Those are clear denials.
Or must it be in a specific format such as "I hereby deny that I am God?"

DeepSight:
I will give you both verses were the Bible says so and where Jesus himself says so - since the question is about the whole of the Bible being true - (I have highlighted important words of Jesus himself in red) -

1 - I Tim. 2:5: - For there is one God, and one Mediator of God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus Christ”


2 - John 14:28 – “I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I”.


3 - I Cor. 11:3 - “But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God “


4 - Eph. 1:15 - 17. - “15 Therefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints,16 do not cease to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers: 17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him”


5 - I Pet 1:3 - "Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ"


6 - Mark 10:18 - “So Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God.”


7 - I Cor. 15:28 - “Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.”


8 - John 15:1 – 10:“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 “Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;[a] and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 “You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 “Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me."

5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 “If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 “If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you. 8 “By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples. 9 “As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love. 10 “If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.


9 - John 20:17 – “Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.’”


10 - John 17:1 - 8 – “1 Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You, 2 “as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should[a] give eternal life to as many as You have given Him. 3 “And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. 4 “I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do. 5 “And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.”

6 “I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. 7 “Now they have known that all things which You have given Me are from You. 8 “For I have given to them the words which You have given Me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came forth from You; and they have believed that You sent Me."

11 - Mark 13:32 - “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.”

12 - Acts 2:22 – 24 “Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know— 23 “Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken[b] by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death; 24 “whom God raised up, having loosed the pains of death, because it was not possible that He should be held by it.


13 - Luke 22:41 - 42 – “41 And He was withdrawn from them about a stone’s throw, and He knelt down and prayed, 42saying, “Father, if it is Your will, take this cup away from Me; nevertheless not My will, but Yours, be done.” (The Prayer in Gethsemane).


14 - John 8:40 - “But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this.”


15 - Luke 23:32 - 34 – “There were also two others, criminals, led with Him to be put to death. 33 And when they had come to the place called Calvary, there they crucified Him, and the criminals, one on the right hand and the other on the left. 34 Then Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they do.”


16 - Matt 21:33 – 42 “33 Hear another parable: There was a certain landowner who planted a vineyard and set a hedge around it, dug a winepress in it and built a tower. And he leased it to vinedressers and went into a far country. 34 “Now when vintage–time drew near, he sent his servants to the vinedressers, that they might receive its fruit. 35 “And the vinedressers took his servants, beat one, killed one, and stoned another.

36 “Again he sent other servants, more than the first, and they did likewise to them. 37 “Then last of all he sent his son to them, saying, ‘They will respect my son.’ 38 “But when the vinedressers saw the son, they said among themselves, ‘This is the heir. Come, let us kill him and seize his inheritance.’ 39 “So they took him and cast him out of the vineyard and killed him.

40 “Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vinedressers?”

41 They said to Him, “He will destroy those wicked men miserably, and lease his vineyard to other vinedressers who will render to him the fruits in their seasons.”

42 Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures:
‘The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone.
This was the Lord’s doing,
And it is marvelous in our eyes’

(The Parable of the Vineyard)


17 - Matt 27:45 – 46 “45 Now from the sixth hour until the ninth hour there was darkness over all the land. 46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?” that is, “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?”


18 – Mark 16:19 – “So then, after the Lord had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God.” [And all other scripture which refers to Christ as sitting at the Right Hand Side of God, including Psalm 110:1, and all similar scripture in the Book of Revelation].


19 - John 3:16 - “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 “For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. [Only Begotten Son - "Monogenes" - and all other verses in scripture where the term "monogenes" i.e: "only begotten" is used].


20 - Deuteronomy 6:4 - "Hear o Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is One."

Nice one Deepsight!

For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept, Line upon line, line upon line, Here a little, there a little. Isaiah 28:10

Jesus Christ never said he was God, simple.

DeepSight:
Look at the red highlights. Those are clear denials.
Or must it be in a specific format such as "I hereby deny that I am God?"

Strictly speaking yes, a denial should be emphatic.

LordReed:
Strictly speaking yes, a denial should be emphatic.

His words were emphatic.
When he says he has a God that is emphatic.

When he says he obeys that God, that is emphatic.

When he prays to that God, that is emphatic.

When he asks his God why he has been forsaken by same God, that is beyond emphatic.

When he says he is a man conveying what he heard from God, that is super emphatic.

When he says the father is greater than I, that is ultra emphatic.

When he says "my father and your father, my God and your God" nothing could be more emphatic.

When he submits to the will of God in the Garden of Gethsemane and shows by his prayer that his will is different from the will of God, nothing could be more emphatic. "Not as I will but as thou wilt."

When he reprimands a man for calling him "good" insisting that "only God is good" what could be more emphatic.

I could go on and on.

DeepSight:
His words were emphatic.
When he says he has a God that is emphatic.

When he says he obeys that God, that is emphatic.

When he prays to that God, that is emphatic.

When he asks his God why he has been forsaken by same God, that is beyond emphatic.

When he says he is a man conveying what he heard from God, that is super emphatic.

When he says the father is greater than I, that is ultra emphatic.

When he says "my father and your father, my God and your God" nothing could be more emphatic.

When he submits to the will of God in the Garden of Gethsemane and shows by his prayer that his will is different from the will of God, nothing could be more emphatic. "Not as I will but as thou wilt."

When he reprimands a man for calling him "good" insisting that "only God is good" what could be more emphatic.

I could go on and on.

He doesn't emphatically say I am not god while saying I and my father are one which leads to interpretations like the Trinity doctrine. If he had emphatically said I am not god there would be no room for something like the Trinity doctrine.

LordReed:
He doesn't emphatically say I am not god while saying I and my father are one which leads to interpretations like the Trinity doctrine. If he had emphatically said I am not god there would be no room for something like the Trinity doctrine.

In that very sentence he explained what he meant by "one."

He said I and my father are one just as you and me are one. Now was he saying that his disciples were him?

So that was clear enough.

He was emphatic in his denial. If you tell me that Tinubu is greater than you, that is an emphatic statement that you are not Tinubu. If you write letters to Tinubu begging him, that is an emphatic statement that you are not Tinubu. It is not only by saying the exact words "I am not Tinubu" that you can emphatically deny being Tinubu. I firmly disagree with you on that, but I guess it can rest.

LordReed -

The exact verse -

John 17:21-23: "that all of them may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You. May they also be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me. I have given them the glory You gave Me, so that they may be one as We are one—I in them and You in Me—that they may be perfectly united, so that the world may know that You sent Me and have loved them just as You have loved Me."

DeepSight:
In that very sentence he explained what he meant by "one."

He said I and my father are one just as you and me are one. Now was he saying that his disciples were him?

So that was clear enough.

He was emphatic in his denial. If you tell me that Tinubu is greater than you, that is an emphatic statement that you are not Tinubu. If you write letters to Tinubu begging him, that is an emphatic statement that you are not Tinubu. It is not only by saying the exact words "I am not Tinubu" that you can emphatically deny being Tinubu. I firmly disagree with you on that, but I guess it can rest.

DeepSight:
LordReed -

The exact verse -

John 17:21-23: "that all of them may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You. May they also be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me. I have given them the glory You gave Me, so that they may be one as We are one—I in them and You in Me—that they may be perfectly united, so that the world may know that You sent Me and have loved them just as You have loved Me."

The fact that the Trinity doctrine exists should be enough to show this is not an emphatic denial.

Once again I agree with you Jesus is not god nor does he say he is god.

LordReed:
The fact that the Trinity doctrine exists should be enough to show this is not an emphatic denial.

Once again I agree with you Jesus is not god nor does he say he is god.

Mark you, the Bible - and gospels particularly underwent editing and selection. There were hundreds of books in existence and circulation and only a strict few were canonized by the Roman curia. The fact of the existence of the Trinity doctrine is not down to a lack of a denial in scripture - it is down to several other factors including the imposition of pagan ideas into Christianity as it merged with Rome and became a state religion.

Indeed there was even an attempt to directly introduce the Trinity into scripture. Go and read 1 John 5 v 7 in the KJV. You will see an explicit declaration of the Trinity there. Check the same verse in every other version of the Bible. You will not see it there. It has been removed. Because older manuscripts were found which showed that it was not there to start with and was only slunk in later.

DeepSight:
You are free to call me slow, I don't mind.

So let's start again. Are you saying you can know the attributes of God through Jesus Christ?

This your obsession with attributes.
There's nothing to start again. It is stated right at the OP - God exists in a dimension you can neither visualize, explain, nor comprehend.
If yiu can't visualize, explain, nor comprehend a dimension, how can you be talking of attributes within it??

DeepSight:
Mark you, the Bible - and gospels particularly underwent editing and selection. There were hundreds of books in existence and circulation and only a strict few were canonized by the Roman curia. The fact of the existence of the Trinity doctrine is not down to a lack of a denial in scripture - it is down to several other factors including the imposition of pagan ideas into Christianity as it merged with Rome and became a state religion.

Indeed there was even an attempt to directly introduce the Trinity into scripture. Go and read 1 John 5 v 7 in the KJV. You will see an explicit declaration of the Trinity there. Check the same verse in every other version of the Bible. You will not see it there. It has been removed. Because older manuscripts were found which showed that it was not there to start with and was only slunk in later.

Well that's a feature of the religion, they can modify it to suit their beliefs.

DeepSight:
I will give you both verses were the Bible says so and where Jesus himself says so - since the question is about the whole of the Bible being true - (I have highlighted important words of Jesus himself in red) -

1 - I Tim. 2:5: - For there is one God, and one Mediator of God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus Christ”


2 - John 14:28 – “I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I”.


3 - I Cor. 11:3 - “But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God “


4 - Eph. 1:15 - 17. - “15 Therefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints,16 do not cease to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers: 17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him”


5 - I Pet 1:3 - "Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ"


6 - Mark 10:18 - “So Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God.”


7 - I Cor. 15:28 - “Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.”


8 - John 15:1 – 10:“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 “Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;[a] and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 “You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 “Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me."

5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 “If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 “If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you. 8 “By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples. 9 “As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love. 10 “If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.


9 - John 20:17 – “Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.’”


10 - John 17:1 - 8 – “1 Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You, 2 “as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should[a] give eternal life to as many as You have given Him. 3 “And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. 4 “I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do. 5 “And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.”

6 “I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. 7 “Now they have known that all things which You have given Me are from You. 8 “For I have given to them the words which You have given Me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came forth from You; and they have believed that You sent Me."

11 - Mark 13:32 - “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.”

12 - Acts 2:22 – 24 “Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know— 23 “Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken[b] by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death; 24 “whom God raised up, having loosed the pains of death, because it was not possible that He should be held by it.


13 - Luke 22:41 - 42 – “41 And He was withdrawn from them about a stone’s throw, and He knelt down and prayed, 42saying, “Father, if it is Your will, take this cup away from Me; nevertheless not My will, but Yours, be done.” (The Prayer in Gethsemane).


14 - John 8:40 - “But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this.”


15 - Luke 23:32 - 34 – “There were also two others, criminals, led with Him to be put to death. 33 And when they had come to the place called Calvary, there they crucified Him, and the criminals, one on the right hand and the other on the left. 34 Then Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they do.”


16 - Matt 21:33 – 42 “33 Hear another parable: There was a certain landowner who planted a vineyard and set a hedge around it, dug a winepress in it and built a tower. And he leased it to vinedressers and went into a far country. 34 “Now when vintage–time drew near, he sent his servants to the vinedressers, that they might receive its fruit. 35 “And the vinedressers took his servants, beat one, killed one, and stoned another.

36 “Again he sent other servants, more than the first, and they did likewise to them. 37 “Then last of all he sent his son to them, saying, ‘They will respect my son.’ 38 “But when the vinedressers saw the son, they said among themselves, ‘This is the heir. Come, let us kill him and seize his inheritance.’ 39 “So they took him and cast him out of the vineyard and killed him.

40 “Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vinedressers?”

41 They said to Him, “He will destroy those wicked men miserably, and lease his vineyard to other vinedressers who will render to him the fruits in their seasons.”

42 Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures:
‘The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone.
This was the Lord’s doing,
And it is marvelous in our eyes’

(The Parable of the Vineyard)


17 - Matt 27:45 – 46 “45 Now from the sixth hour until the ninth hour there was darkness over all the land. 46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?” that is, “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?”


18 – Mark 16:19 – “So then, after the Lord had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God.” [And all other scripture which refers to Christ as sitting at the Right Hand Side of God, including Psalm 110:1, and all similar scripture in the Book of Revelation].


19 - John 3:16 - “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 “For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. [Only Begotten Son - "Monogenes" - and all other verses in scripture where the term "monogenes" i.e: "only begotten" is used].


20 - Deuteronomy 6:4 - "Hear o Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is One."

God the Son, you're welcome.

Maxindhouse and janosky please see the below. Even an atheist agrees that Jesus would God if the Bible were true

LordReed:
If there was evidence they did, most likely i would.



If that person can do something that according to the framework of belief that only a god could do like make the sun to "stand still" without killing everything on the earth, I would be convinced they are probably what they say they are.

Everything is not incoherent because I have a sane mind that can evaluate reality with good epistemological frameworks. Yes my brain can be manipulated but it is because there are good epistemological frameworks that we know that. If you have faulty epistemology and are unable to properly evaluate reality thats a you problem not an us problem.

Thanks for being honest about Jesus being God.

As for incoherence, see how you keep using the word "reality", it never occurres to you that reality itself is incoherent. Everything about your existence is based on circumstantial evidence not final proof, yet you insist that God that exists outsider time and in a dimension beyond your comprehension and imagination be coherent to your extremely limited brain!

FreeIgboho:
Thanks for being honest about Jesus being God.

Don't be deliberately obtuse. I never said "Jesus was/is God". I granted your supposition which is not the same as saying I agree.

As for incoherence, see how you keep using the word "reality", it never occurres to you that reality itself is incoherent. Everything about your existence is based on circumstantial evidence not final proof, yet you insist that God that exists outsider time and in a dimension beyond your comprehension and imagination be coherent to your extremely limited brain!

May be to your brain it is. It isn't to me.

Where did I insist that the god "exists outsider time and in a dimension beyond your comprehension"? Please don't be disingenuous by putting words in my mouth.

FreeIgboho:
Maxindhouse and janosky please see the below. Even an atheist agrees that Jesus would God if the Bible were true

You are being disingenuous.

DeepSight you warned me. Look at this rubbish.

LordReed:
You are being disingenuous.

DeepSight you warned me. Look at this rubbish.

That's why I said "Banana peel."

In the first law firm I worked at over 20 years ago, my Head of Department would say - "Je brake oh, ogede wambe."

LordReed:
You are being disingenuous.

DeepSight you warned me. Look at this rubbish.

Here's our exchange. Please what didn't I understand?
Me: If everything happened as stated in the Bible would you believe Jesus is God?

You: If there was evidence they did, most likely i would

Sorry I didn't know you'd mind my referencing your response to others on the thread

FreeIgboho:
Maxindhouse and janosky please see the below. Even an atheist agrees that Jesus would God if the Bible were true

You are just deceiving yourself with false reasoning because you don't know what you are saying yet you keep arguing blindly.

First of all you and your other friend tctrill are atheists but both of you don't know it.

An atheist is not just someone who claims to be atheist rather it's someone who doesn't trust any source of guidance other than his or her own mind hence he will never bow to anything that has to do with collective responsibility towards any deity.

OK you claim that Jesus is the I AM in the Old Testament and many of your friends say the same thing but what do you guys agreed as collective responsibility towards Jesus whom you people call your God? Each of you just mimick the slogan "Jesus is Lord" and off you go with nothing binding you and your fellow so called believer on what Jesus ordered as assigned duty for his disciples {Matthew 7:21-23} instead each of you just practice whatever you wish not in an organized manner as Jesus commissioned the work! Matthew 15:7-9

The one and only organized people who are unitedly doing something worthwhile claiming Jesus ordered them you called "CULT" {Matthew 10:24-25} but where is the WORK of this your professed FAITH?
Nothing to show for it! James 2:18-26

I can tell you confidently that there is no atheist on this forum who doesn't know me because i always tell them that some of them are just claiming atheists but are confused believers while many atheists are claiming believers.

A BELIEVER is someone who trusts a source of guidance so he will always try to encourage others to think along that same line of thought in order to solve some problems facing mankind or his own race.

An ATHEIST is someone who doesn't trust or believe in any source of guidance he is hopeless as regards what has to do with collective responsibility towards achieving anything positive in the lives of his fellow human so he only believes himself and nothing more.

Now prove that you are not an atheist by presenting a group of people that you agree with to work for Jesus and how you people are organized in doing the work.

Please let me see the work of your faith in this your I AM.

LordReed:
May be to your brain it is. It isn't to me.

Where did I insist that the god "exists outsider time and in a dimension beyond your comprehension"? Please don't be disingenuous by putting words in my mouth.

Our brains are so limited we don't know what is "real" and what is not. Our dreams seem totally real to us until we wake up.

No, I was referencing my own words from the OP.
Remember?
4) God exists in a dimension you can neither visualize, explain, nor comprehend.
I never said they were your words

MaxInDHouse:
You are just deceiving yourself with false reasoning because you don't know what you are saying yet you keep arguing blindly.

First of all you and your other friend tctrill are atheists but both of you don't know it.

An atheist is not just someone who claims to be atheist rather it's someone who doesn't trust any source of guidance other than his or her own mind hence he will never bow to anything that has to do with collective responsibility towards any deity.

OK you claim that Jesus is the I AM in the Old Testament and many of your friends say the same thing but what do you guys agreed as collective responsibility towards Jesus whom you people call your God? Each of you just mimick the slogan "Jesus is Lord" and off you go with nothing binding you and your fellow so called believer on what Jesus ordered as assigned duty for his disciples {Matthew 7:21-23} instead each of you just practice whatever you wish not in an organized manner as Jesus commissioned the work! Matthew 15:7-9

The one and only organized people who are unitedly doing something worthwhile claiming Jesus ordered them you called "CULT" {Matthew 10:24-25} but where is the WORK of this your professed FAITH?
Nothing to show for it! James 2:18-26

I can tell you confidently that there is no atheist on this forum who doesn't know me because i always tell them that some of them are just claiming atheists but are confused believers while many atheists are claiming believers.

A BELIEVER is someone who trusts a source of guidance so he will always try to encourage others to think along that same line of thought in order to solve some problems facing mankind or his own race.

An ATHEIST is someone who doesn't trust or believe in any source of guidance he is hopeless as regards what has to do with collective responsibility towards achieving anything positive in the lives of his fellow human so he only believes himself and nothing more.

Now prove that you are not an atheist by presenting a group of people that you agree with to work for Jesus and how you people are organized in doing the work.

Please let me see the work of your faith in this your I AM.

I'm embarrassed for you using the name "Jesus" on this forum when your JW cult doesn't habitually use the name at all. What they say is "Jehovah God". Go to any JW discussion group or see a JW thanking, they NEVER say "thank you Jesus" and very rarely say the name. So what's all this your pretentious focus on Jesus when you know fully well it's a lie?

You said "a believer is someone... in order to solve some problems facing mankind or his own race."
What "problem facing mankind or his own race" has JW solved lately. Regale us

FreeIgboho:
I'm embarrassed for you using the name "Jesus" on this forum when your JW cult doesn't habitually use the name at all. What they say is "Jehovah God". Go to any JW discussion group or see a JW thanking, they NEVER say "thank you Jesus" and very rarely say the name. So what's all this your pretentious focus on Jesus when you know fully well it's a lie?

You said "a believer is someone... in order to solve some problems facing mankind or his own race."
What "problem facing mankind or his own race" has JW solved lately. Regale us

You see the problem you have now?

Instead of focusing on what Jesus taught and commanded his disciples to do you are agitating on what some religionists infused in your mind.

OK prove that what you are demanding from Jehovah's Witnesses is practiced by Christians in the Bible by quoting a verse where any believer in the Bible said:

"thank you Jesus"

After his departure!

MaxInDHouse:
You see the problem you have now?

Instead of focusing on what Jesus taught and commanded his disciples to do you are agitating on what some religionists infused in your mind.

OK prove that what you are demanding from Jehovah's Witnesses is practiced by Christians in the Bible by quoting a verse where any believer in the Bible said:

"thank you Jesus"

After his departure!

Quote a verse where they said
"Thank you Jehovah God" as JW always say.
He's just an angel to you folks, just another messenger like Moses, so why your pretentious focus on him on this forum.
You don't realize it, but it sounds so fake!

FreeIgboho:
That's the mistake you people make. God has no definition in human terms.
See if you can wrap your mind around this:
There are over 2 trillion galaxies in our universe. And possibly unlimited number of universes. Now, shrink our galaxy to the size of the earth and our earth will be smaller than a grain of salt! Add to that, there are likely multiple dimensions. That's the God you're trying to define!

I agree, it is impossible for us to define His nature. Trinity is the best effort at doing that, but it is not perfect.