₦airaland Forum

Boomark:
He knew he would be caught if he stays against his warning. He will not be caught if he obeyed his words.

Any other thing outside this is your own man-made reasoning. I prefer to use scripture to explain things.

Didn't know God's omniscience is dependent on "IF"

Anyway you and Image123 were not included in the group post below. No one has been able to help us so far.
Maybe you can try

Folks, please forgive us but we have a serious problem that we hope you can help us resolve. Please observe the scenario below. No matter how we configure it we arrive at the same conclusion: there is no such thing as freewill. This has led us to helplessness, hopelessness, and depression. Please is there ANY WAY we can configure this so there's space for freewill. (Please disregard for now the assumption that God already knows everything you'll ever do - that's story for another day)

Here's the scenario:

A child is born, he has no hand in anything he was given including his very brain, personality, circumstances of birth, experiences, etc. His brain starts working immediately, gathering info and programming itself, all independent of his input. Based on these info, thoughts appear in the child's consciousness without his input and based on these thoughts he takes actions. These are his thoughts and he has no real power to override them. And even if he could, he'd still override them with thoughts that come from the same brain processes he has no control over. This continues all life long - his thoughts, intentions, and feelings appear from processes within his brain that he's not even aware of talkless of controlling.
Please can you find us space for freewill in all this OR can you please tell us where freewill can come from? Feel free to use AI.
Thanks

FreeIgboho:
Didn't know God's omniscience is dependent on "IF"

Anyway you and Image123 were not included in the group post below. No one has been able to help us so far.
Maybe you can try

What thread is this post of yours located?

DeepSight:
This is just grammar. I repeat if an omniscient, omnipotent creator knows 100 per cent what you will do, you will do it. Simple.
His knowledge of what you will do existed before you existed at all - so how will you change it?
If you change it you are more powerful than him - also his omniscience fails.

In all the unnecessary mis-applied English you try to write, you fail at the simple point - the fact that omniscience and freewill are incompatible.

You will try to say He knows all the options - but wrong - the point is he knows the exact option you will take before he even made you.

To emphasize - it was known what you will do even before you existed!

That is an incongruity that can never be explained. Mind you - I dont affirm either precept - omniscience or freewill - it is you who does.
You are simply trying to say that a square circle exists.

I have no doubt a person like you will try to reconcile contradictions such as claiming Jesus was fully man and fully God.
Even when the definitions are exclusive. Man is limited. God is limitless. But no doubt you will try using mis-applied words to spin a tale.

Try elsewhere. Not impressed.

As regards God, that's rather simple. Finity exists within infinity 👀. Hence if he wills he can assume whatsoever limit he chooses for himself.

Your submissions are still flawed, even though you don't affirm both concepts it doesn't negate the coexistence of such. Scripture and logic warrants such reconciliation! Nothing more, nothing less.

God sees all that you can do, but you choose your outcome. That's the core message of the scripture, man has free will!

FreeIgboho:
And here I was, thinking God was omniscient. So much for that.
Even a fortune teller knows better than God. Who woulda thought.

How, though, do you reconcile with this biblical below

Circles should be your moniker. This doesn't negate the free will of the actor or his agency of choice when he is born. That's God's omniscience in action!

Gabrielshow24:
As regards God, that's rather simple. Finity exists within infinity 👀. Hence if he wills he can assume whatsoever limit he chooses for himself.

Your submissions are still flawed, even though you don't affirm both concepts it doesn't negate the coexistence of such. Scripture and logic warrants such reconciliation! Nothing more, nothing less.

God sees all that you can do, but you choose your outcome. That's the core message of the scripture, man has free will!

You choose your outcome which God knew before you existed?

Lol. Keep joking

DeepSight:
This is just grammar. I repeat if an omniscient, omnipotent creator knows 100 per cent what you will do, you will do it. Simple.
His knowledge of what you will do existed before you existed at all - so how will you change it?
If you change it you are more powerful than him - also his omniscience fails

You will try to say He knows all the options - but wrong - the point is he knows the exact option you will take before he even made you.

To emphasize - it was known what you will do even before you existed!

That is an incongruity that can never be explained. Mind you - I dont affirm either precept - omniscience or freewill - it is you who does.
You are simply trying to say that a square circle exists.

All these special pleading of yours while logical, is your own reconciliation and not true.

What aspect of knowing options, doesn't encapsulate an option. I know with certainty these are the options available for you. Irrespective of whatsoever you choose my certainty remains and my words have not failed!

When God spoke to Cain that sin was at the door, he hoped he would avert it but Cain went all in due to jealousy. Even in biblical instance the will of actors is also put into consideration in fulfilling God's words. It's a physical-spiritual collaboration. God controls the circumstances while your inherent free will fulfills his word!

Circumstances can be configured that there is only one optimal option, like in the case of Peter when he denied Jesus! Later on, he embraced his death🤨(that's evident of choice).

The first death in revelation is ridden with those that chose not to accept the mark of the beast! —No matter how fine you put it, you can never override the immutable fact of free will!

DeepSight:
You choose your outcome which God knew before you existed?

Lol. Keep joking

what aspect of this is funny to you? Every man decides his fate!

I have also pointed out to your friend that some scripts are impartial to object id, or identity. They are there and will be fulfilled on whosoever gives himself to them. Luke17:1

Image123:
What thread is this post of yours located?

This my thread. Search above

Gabrielshow24:
what aspect of this is funny to you? Every man decides his fate!

I have also pointed out to your friend that some scripts are impartial to object id, or identity. They are there and will be fulfilled on whosoever gives himself to them. Luke17:1

You choose an outcome already certain before you existed?

Keep joking.


As regards God and man no it doesn't work. Also there are way too many differences.

Man can sin, God cannot.

Man cannot raise himself from the dead, God cannot even die.

Man is imperfect, God is perfect.

Man is corruptible, God is not.

I can go on and on.

To claim that anyone is fully man, he must have all the frailties, weaknesses and limitations of man. Which man knows that when he dies he will rise in three days? Which man says before Abraham was I AM? Which man does a transfiguration? Which man says he sat by the right hand of the Father? Which man was born by a virgin? This last one in fact ends the discussion because if anyone's mother was impregnated by the Holy Spirit, that is simply not a man at all.

I don't like the dishonest way you try to say that squares can be circles.

Gabrielshow24:
Circles should be your moniker. This doesn't negate the free will of the actor or his agency of choice when he is born. That's God's omniscience in action!

Poor Gabriel still has freewill in the brain. My brother we've moved beyond that as no one has been able to help us. You tried with "agency of choice" but was promptly put right and have since kept quiet.
We'er now discussing why an omniscient God was NOT omniscient when it came to Paul (at least according to Boomark!)

Gabrielshow24:
What aspect of knowing options, doesn't encapsulate an option. I know with certainty these are the options available for you. Irrespective of whatsoever you choose my certainty remains and my words have not failed!

Making sense of religion leads people to try to justify absurdities.

Stop being funny. It's not a matter of knowing the options. It is knowing EXACTLY what option WILL be chosen EVEN BEFORE the creature was made.

That can never mean that the creature really had options. He didn't.

FreeIgboho:
Poor Gabriel still has freewill in the brain. My brother we've moved beyond that as no one has been able to help us. You tried with "agency of choice" but was promptly put right and have since kept quiet.
We'er now discussing why an omniscient God was NOT omniscient when it came to Paul (at least according to Boomark!)

🤔Put right by who? 🤨

Such misleading remarks are uncalled for. Probably, from your non-existent freewilled mind. As far as it stands, not you, not Deepsight have been able to show, be it logically, mathematically that the subset of choices you have are not your own! This alone warrants a revisitation to your mindsets!

You keep jumping from pillar to post in this futile bid to dismiss free will. I wonder why👀.
What aspect of his omniscient wasn't in view? He told him what they will do it him. Was this negated in any form? Paul chose to go, he embraced whatsoever was in store for him. This was even evident in his letter.

You just choose to see, the non-existent of free will, in everything. With the plethora of biblical use cases that I brought to the table, you still saw what you wanted to see. Even with phrases such "he obeyed", "had an heart to fulfill" etc you still cry, " no free will".

Just pure redundancy!

Gabrielshow24:
🤔Put right by who? 🤨

Such misleading remarks are uncalled for. Probably, from your non-existent freewilled mind. As far as it stands, not you, not Deepsight have been able to show, be it logically, mathematically that the subset of choices you have are not your own! This alone warrants a revisitation to your mindsets!

You keep jumping from pillar to post in this futile bid to dismiss free will. I wonder why👀.
What aspect of his omniscient wasn't in view? He told him what they will do it him. Was this negated in any form? Paul chose to go, he embraced whatsoever was in store for him. This was even evident in his letter.

You just choose to see, the non-existent of free will, in everything. With the plethora of biblical use cases that I brought to the table, you still saw what you wanted to see. Even with phrases such "he obeyed", "had an heart to fulfill" etc you still cry, " no free will".

Just pure redundancy!

What sub sets of choices when your creator knew the only thing you would do before you existed?

Are you sure you are reasoning?

I said, before you existed.

How were you able to choose that result before you existed?

Go and sit down.

FreeIgboho:
And here I was, thinking God was omniscient. So much for that.
Even a fortune teller knows better than God. Who woulda thought.

How, though, do you reconcile with this biblical below

You are having a wrong thought. You need to redirect your thoughts to the truth and not on man-made doctrine.

Show me at least one scripture that called God omniscient and what it means.

Please don't borrow any info from anywhere. Focus on the scripture.


How do fortune tellers know more than God? This one is not even an issue.

Jeremiah 1:5 is something like this:

Before you cook beans you know. If you want to use the beans to drink garri or fight pest, you know. Then you will send your word to that beans and tell it Your Will. Shikina. That's if you have powers.

Gabrielshow24:
what aspect of this is funny to you? Every man decides his fate!

You decide before you existed right?

DeepSight:
Making sense of religion leads people to try to justify absurdities.

Stop being funny. It's not a matter of knowing the options. It is knowing EXACTLY what option WILL be chosen EVEN BEFORE the creature was made.

That can never mean that the creature really had options. He didn't.

Mind you, different circumstances warrant different EXACT options 🤨. Hence an omniscient God deals with circumstances that warrant an exact choice from a person. Like in the case of Peter, his fear of death 👀, warranted the exact choice he made!

How's this hard to understand 🤨? The same Peter when given the chance a second time gladly embraced it🧐. He suggested according to history to be crucified upside down 🤤—Such humility in death.

The same way the biblical prophecy was fulfilled as regards the conquest of Babylon, a very specific circumstance was in play!

DeepSight:
You decide before you existed right?

You keep using this mundane strategem that do not avail you much!

Have we not settled this earlier that all your "special pleadings" are under constraints you and I don't have an handle on?

That's God will or divine prerogative, mine is to do his will with the choice he has given me!

DeepSight:
What sub sets of choices when your creator knew the only thing you would do before you existed?

Are you sure you are reasoning?

I said, before you existed.

How were you able to choose that result before you existed?

Go and sit down.

The same way people know about the choices of others even before they are played out on the board.

That's why I said God knows all the possible moves that could be ever played! You decide what move from this set to play! It doesn't negate the fact that such a move is already known.

Be it before the foundation of the world, be it deep into the future. All possible choices and their outcomes are known. The actors when present will choose their own.

FreeIgboho:
Didn't know God's omniscience is dependent on "IF"

Anyway you and Image123 were not included in the group post below. No one has been able to help us so far.
Maybe you can try

If there had been a bible challenge, this topic won't have gotten to over 40 pages. And still yet nobody knows the truth because everyone is posting whatever they want as the truth. It will continue like this. Even if we figure out the truth, those who have left already will only know what they know.

If we have the truth on the first 1 to 5 pages, then we direct people to it any time. All these post I post will not solve anything.

Gabrielshow24:
The same way people know about the choices of others even before they are played out on the board.

That's why I said God knows all the possible moves that could be ever played! You decide what move from this set to play! It doesn't negate the fact that such a move is already known.

Be it before the foundation of the world, be it deep into the future. All possible choices and their outcomes are known. The actors when present will choose their own.

Are you challenged? How many times do I have to repeat that its not the choices/ options that God knows? It is EXACTLY what you will do.
Before he made you.

Were you there?

Gabrielshow24:
You keep using this mundane strategem that do not avail you much!

Have we not settled this earlier that all your "special pleadings" are under constraints you and I don't have an handle on?

That's God will or divine prerogative, mine is to do his will with the choice he has given me!

You are wasting your time.

You cannot make a decision before you existed.

Res ipsa loquitur.

Gabrielshow24:
Mind you, different circumstances warrant different EXACT options 🤨. Hence an omniscient God deals with circumstances that warrant an exact choice from a person. Like in the case of Peter, his fear of death 👀, warranted the exact choice he made!

How's this hard to understand 🤨? The same Peter when given the chance a second time gladly embraced it🧐. He suggested according to history to be crucified upside down 🤤—Such humility in death.

The same way the biblical prophecy was fulfilled as regards the conquest of Babylon, a very specific circumstance was in play!

There is nothing like different exact options. Another square circle.

No offense, no insult oh, but can you clue me on to your age (you dont have to be specific) and if you have ant background in philosophy? Your church, if any, and how long you have been a Christian?

DeepSight:
You are wasting your time.

You cannot make a decision before you existed.

Res ipsa loquitur.

I didn't say, I did. I said decisions have been known before I existed!

DeepSight:
There is nothing like different exact options. Another square circle.

No offense, no insult oh, but can you clue me on to your age (you dont have to be specific) and if you have ant background in philosophy? Your church, if any, and how long you have been a Christian?

Oh my God🤦🏾‍♂️. Well, I am more inclined into STEM and yes, I was born in a christian home but was perfunctory about it until when my objectivity was cured.

Every circumstance warrants a set of choice, the more specific a circumstance, the more specific its defining choice! Do you understand this concept?

God is aware of all the moves you want to make. When He intends to do something he either guides you to his will(you freely subject yourself) or he configures circumstances to achieve his intended goal! You don't have control over such circumstances, but you have control over your choices.

Mere humans, can only predict people's next move because we don't have an handle on the circumstances but if we had, we too will also be able to configure people and circumstances to our will!

They are not mutually exclusive, you see it that way. They are indeed a unified system.

DeepSight:
Are you challenged? How many times do I have to repeat that its not the choices/ options that God knows? It is EXACTLY what you will do.
Before he made you.

Were you there?

Now I am arguing that "exactly" is bound by a specific circumstance!

Probably, you haven't gotten this, either!
As long as I know all circumstances, I can ensure that one specific circumstance will occur. 🤨

Why is this so hard for you both to understand? This is why Gms go for specific positions that are winning!

As long as I can achieve these specific positions, I know I am winning!—it becomes an inevitable and irrefutable win!

Gabrielshow24:
I didn't say, I did. I said decisions have been known before I existed!

Isnt it obvious then that you didnt make those decisions?
Its absurd to say that the decisions of a free creature were known before it existed.

Gabrielshow24:
Now I am arguing that "exactly" is bound by a specific circumstance!

Probably, you haven't gotten this, either!
As long as I know all circumstances, I can ensure that one specific circumstance will occur. 🤨

Why is this so hard for you both to understand? This is why Gms go for specific positions that are winning!

As long as I can achieve these specific positions, I know I am winning!—it becomes an inevitable and irrefutable win!

The bold ends this discussion.

@FreeIgboho - see.

DeepSight:
Isnt it obvious then that you didnt make those decisions?
Its absurd to say that the decisions of a free creature were known before it existed.

You didn't decide the system, the same way you and I didn't invent chess. Those that did came up with laws and rules that warranted them to know beforehand the movements accommodated for each piece.

Once more, that's a pre-determined system. You have no business with that, what you have business with is your agency of choice!

DeepSight:
The bold ends this discussion.

@FreeIgboho - see.

how does it negate free will? 🤨The actors still exhibit their agency of choice when interacting with such circumstance!🤨

It's clearly observer bias on your part! You just want to see what you want to see!

FreeIgboho:
Poor Gabriel still has freewill in the brain. My brother we've moved beyond that as no one has been able to help us. You tried with "agency of choice" but was promptly put right and have since kept quiet.
We'er now discussing why an omniscient God was NOT omniscient when it came to Paul (at least according to Boomark!)

Please don't say things I didn't say.


I told you to show me the scripture where you got omniscient from and what it means.

Gabrielshow24:
how does it negate free will? 🤨The actors still exhibit their agency of choice when interacting with such circumstance!🤨

It's clearly observer bias on your part! You just want to see what you want to see!

I am done. You ceded the debate. I will not go round in circles.

Gabrielshow24:
🤔Put right by who? 🤨

Such misleading remarks are uncalled for. Probably, from your non-existent freewilled mind. As far as it stands, not you, not Deepsight have been able to show, be it logically, mathematically that the subset of choices you have are not your own! This alone warrants a revisitation to your mindsets!

You keep jumping from pillar to post in this futile

"Put right by who?". What do you call this below, after which you went quiet?