₦airaland Forum

FreeIgboho:
Ad hominem attack - sign of having lost an argument!
Again, MENTION ONE ATTRIBUTE I SAID GOD MUST HAVE!!!!

https://www.nairaland.com/8456831/why-jesus-definitely-god/53#136265661

Thats what you listed.
I dont have your energy, whatever you call them, attributes oh, events that will convince you that someone is God oh, blessings that show one is God oh, na you sabi.

DeepSight:
As for you, its the heaven you believe in that will rescue you from your contradictions.

Hybrid man🤣, "Not God, Not man" dude😂.

Both of you can believe whatever you want, it won't change the circumstantial fact of coexistence 🤣.

See you some other time. 🤞

Gabrielshow24:
Hybrid man🤣, "Not God, Not man" dude😂.

Both of you can believe whatever you want, it won't change the circumstantial fact of coexistence 🤣.

See you some other time. 🤞

Somethings are beyond belief. For the second time, I am reminding you that you were the one who used the word hybrid first and you dance around laughing about it as though I said so. You people are mazing. Enjoy.

DeepSight:
Somethings are beyond belief. For the second time, I am reminding you that you were the one who used the word hybrid first and you dance around laughing about it as though I said so. You people are mazing. Enjoy.

Your implication categorized him as an hybrid and you went along with it. 😂

That's your problem, not mine! 🤨

Image123:
Freewill doesn't involve choosing your kind of brain but ability and will to make decisions. You can decide to listen or not listen, that's free will.

There is no "ability and will to make decisions" without your brain. There is no "decide to listen or not listen" without your brain. It all ends with the brain, the brain and it's programming that you had no hand in.
If I had different brain, genes, circumstances, and experiences (none of which I chose) I'd be a totally different person all together - maybe Dangote or an armed robber, which I'd not have chosen. Please, where's freewill hiding in all that?

DeepSight:
https://www.nairaland.com/8456831/why-jesus-definitely-god/53#136265661

Thats what you listed.
I dont have your energy, whatever you call them, attributes oh, events that will convince you that someone is God oh, blessings that show one is God oh, na you sabi.

You lost the argument because you didn't take time to read what I wrote in the OP.
How can I assign attributes to God when I wrote clearly: You can't know him by logic, reasoning, or attributes.

FreeIgboho:
You lost the argument because you didn't take time to read what I wrote in the OP.
How can I assign attributes to God when I wrote clearly: You can't know him by logic, reasoning, or attributes.

As you wish.

Gabrielshow24:
Your implication categorized him as an hybrid and you went along with it. 😂

That's your problem, not mine! 🤨

Enjoy.

DeepSight:
As you wish.

Jesus has to be God Son of God because people over centuries declared him so. So you can't say they came together and conspired to name him so. The three kings who worshipped him as an infant did not know Isaiah who prophesied God was coming, and neither knew Peter who confessed him Son of the living God, etc

FreeIgboho:
Jesus has to be God Son of God because people over centuries declared him so. So you can't say they came together and conspired to name him so. The three kings who worshipped him as an infant did not know Isaiah who prophesied God was coming, and neither knew Peter who confessed him Son of the living God, etc

As you wish.

DeepSight:
As you wish.

You've lost that one. Leave that and tackle why
all-good, all-powerful God allows evil - something
Gabrielshow24 brought up like he has the definitive answer, then shied away when asked to present it!

FreeIgboho:
There is no "ability and will to make decisions" without your brain. There is no "decide to listen or not listen" without your brain. It all ends with the brain, the brain and it's programming that you had no hand in.
If I had different brain, genes, circumstances, and experiences (none of which I chose) I'd be a totally different person all together - maybe Dangote or an armed robber, which I'd not have chosen. Please, where's freewill hiding in all that?

i have decided not to reply you for a minimum of one week. That's free will. Good morning.

FreeIgboho:
You've lost that one. Leave that and tackle why
all-good, all-powerful God allows evil - something
Gabrielshow24 brought up like he has the definitive answer, then shied away when asked to present it!

Abeg I need a break from your kind of illogicality. I should have learnt the moment you started saying "Good does not mean Good."

As for that fella, he must be your twin.

Image123:
i have decided not to reply you for a minimum of one week. That's free will. Good morning.

That's ridiculously NOT freewill at all. That's a result of the life-long conditioning from birth that made you who you are. If you had different brain, genes, circumstances, and experiences (none of which you chose) you'd be a totally different person all together - and ALL (ALL!!!) your decisions will stem from that. No space for freewill whatsoever!

DeepSight:
Abeg I need a break from your kind of illogicality. I should have learnt the moment you started saying "Good does not mean Good."

As for that fella, he must be your twin.

It is very tiring trying to refute a cogent, intellectually honest statement (example, my post above).
Simple: you're in no position to say: "Jesus can't be God because..." Now, if another person claims to be God and it's only them saying it, etc, I can dismiss them as liars

FreeIgboho:
It is very tiring trying to refute a cogent, intellectually honest statement (example, my post above).
Simple: you're in no position to say: "Jesus can't be God because..." Now, if another person claims to be God and it's only them saying it, etc, I can dismiss them as liars

Perhaps you dont know me. I have many years of setting out the arguments carefully. I have nothing to prove to merchants of illogic.

https://www.nairaland.com/1341464/anony-deep-sight-verse-verse#16582813

Those are just some biblical points - both sides.

But fundamentally Jesus is not God because he was, if he existed, just another man.
If you think his life was incredible fine. Many have had incredible lives.
Its also absurd worshipping your fellow man, dont you know.

God is transcendental, ineffable, unknowable. Its absurd to point to any man and call him God.

I cant proceed with you though, as you say things like "good is not good" and you set out lists and say you didnt.
Its impossible to discuss.

DeepSight:
Perhaps you dont know me. I have many years of setting out the arguments carefully. I have nothing to prove to merchants of illogic.

https://www.nairaland.com/1341464/anony-deep-sight-verse-verse#16582813

Those are just some biblical points - both sides.

But fundamentally Jesus is not God because he was, if he existed, just another man.
If you think his life was incredible fine. Many have had incredible lives.
Its also absurd worshipping your fellow man, dont you know.

God is transcendental, ineffable, unknowable. Its absurd to point to any man and call him God.

I cant proceed with you though, as you say things like "good is not good" and you set out lists and say you didnt.
Its impossible to discuss.

Even LordReed agreed that if everything said about Jesus in the Bible were proven true he'd also believe he is God (if he were open to such belief). LordReed!! LordReed who is beyond atheist and is igtheist!!

You can't know better than all the generations of people who foretold Jesus as God coming, worshipped him when he came, and still worshipping him over 2000 years later!

FreeIgboho:
Even LordReed agreed that if everything said about Jesus in the Bible were proven true he'd also believe he is God (if he were open to such belief). LordReed!! LordReed who is beyond atheist and is igtheist!!

You can't know better than all the generations of people who foretold Jesus as God coming, worshipped him when he came, and still worshipping him over 2000 years later!

Obviously it has never occurred to you that it is possible to deliberately fulfill a prophecy if one is aware of it, or to deliberately claim that it was fulfilled, or even write the prophecy after the fulfillment. I say this generally of prophecies, not of your Jewish Lord in particular.

How do I deliberately fulfill a prophecy? Simple. I know of it. It says one will ride a donkey into Jerusalem. So I hire the donkey and ride in deliberately. Prophecy fulfilled.

Look, even if all of those things were true, no, I would not believe that any man is God. They would at best mean that he was a prophet or messenger from higher realms.

Because for me, God is not personal.

IT remains beyond all existence.

I am the Lord: that is my name: and my glory I will not give another; neither my praise to graven images”
Isaiah 42:8
Why do you bow down to a cross?

“I, even I, am the Lord: and beside me there is no savior.”
Isaiah 43:10-11

You claim Jesus is seated beside the Father but beside Hashem there is no savior.

“Remember the former things of old: for I am G-d, and there is none else; I am G-d, and there is none like me.”
Isaiah 46:9

You say the Jesus is like The Creator but there is none like Him.

“And he said, You can not see my face: for there is no man that shall see me, and live.”
Exodus 33:20

How many people saw Jesus and lived?

“O Lord, there is none like you, neither is there any G-d beside you, according to all that we have heard with our ears.”
1 Chronicles 17:30

Who is seated at the right hand if there is none beside Him?

“Look unto me, and be saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am G-d and there is none else.”
Isaiah 45:20-22

There is nothing but Hashem.

DeepSight:
Obviously it has never occurred to you that it is possible to deliberately fulfill a prophecy if one is aware of it, or to deliberately claim that it was fulfilled, or even write the prophecy after the fulfillment. I say this generally of prophecies, not of your Jewish Lord in particular.

How do I deliberately fulfill a prophecy? Simple. I know of it. It says one will ride a donkey into Jerusalem. So I hire the donkey and ride in deliberately. Prophecy fulfilled.

Look, even if all of those things were true, no, I would not believe that any man is God. They would at best mean that he was a prophet or messenger from higher realms.

Because for me, God is not personal.

IT remains beyond all existence.

I guess it all depends on what we and this our reality actually are (vs what we think we are) and what God actually is. Suppose it turns out this is actually a family project and Jesus happens to be the only member of the family who agreed to debase himself and visit earth to remedy some fundamental errors? It could be anything and probably something beyond our wildest imagination.

As for prophecy, of course anything is possible but some things are highly unlikely - "God with us" was prophesied, "Prince of peace" was prophesied, "atonement for sins of the world" was prophesied, so were birth in Bethlehem, Mighty God, birth in a manger, etc. Why only Jesus in particular, who was not known for faking things? Why didn't any other person try to do same.
ANYTHING can be doubted but, like I said, in this world we go by preponderance of circumstantial evidence, not proof!

Gabrielshow24:
😂So intriguing that you can see stubbornness elsewhere and you can also acknowledge "circumstantial evidence"😂.

Bro, your posits are very disjointed! The both of you are perfect for each other🤣. Good luck 🤞.

It is NOT stubbornness to state an obvious FACT - that if you were given different brain, genes, circumstances, and experiences (none of which you chose) you'd be a totally different person - and ALL (ALL!!!) your decisions will stem from that and therefore no space for freewill whatsoever.

It IS stubbornness to keep saying it is a lie without offering anything that refutes it.
It is also stubbornness to keep saying someone assigned attributes to God when he clearly didn't. When he infact wrote: "You can't know God by logic, reasoning, or attributes"!

FreeIgboho:
I guess it all depends on what we and this our reality actually are (vs what we think we are) and what God actually is. Suppose it turns out this is actually a family project and Jesus happens to be the only member of the family who agreed to debase himself and visit earth to remedy some fundamental errors? It could be anything and probably something beyond our wildest imagination.

Slightly better propositions.

As for prophecy, of course anything is possible but some things are highly unlikely - "God with us" was prophesied, "Prince of peace" was prophesied, "atonement for sins of the world" was prophesied, so were birth in Bethlehem, Mighty God, birth in a manger, etc. Why only Jesus in particular, who was not known for faking things? Why didn't any other person try to do same.
ANYTHING can be doubted but, like I said, in this world we go by preponderance of circumstantial evidence, not proof!

You keep writing as if you were there to see these things happen. There is no single evidence that they did. Dont you know that anything can be written? I have a copy of Nostradamus' prophecies. There are so many i can simply write anything to make it appear that i have fulfilled one.

The whole thing doesnt mean jack.

I also hope you know Jesus did not write a single word. All the gospels are stories written about him decades after his death (if he existed) - and there are many of them, not just four - four were chosen by the Roman Curia - many more stories exist which totally contradict those four stories.

PS: Those four stories were not even written by the people they were ascribed to.

FreeIgboho:
You've lost that one. Leave that and tackle why
all-good, all-powerful God allows evil - something
Gabrielshow24 brought up like he has the definitive answer, then shied away when asked to present it!

The question, you asked me. I have answered. You brought up the concept of evil, along with the supposed lack of awareness of God to his disciples, along with the need of multitude of prayers. I have given you the biblical stance, and if you seek another. Kindly look up Godel's refutation using modal logic.

I won't continue another futile conversation with you. We won't agree and also circumstances have refuted you already! 😂

As for that nestorian, your partner in chief—The one that proposes Jesus an hybrid. I wish you both good luck.

FreeIgboho:
It is NOT stubbornness to state an obvious FACT - that if you were given different brain, genes, circumstances, and experiences (none of which you chose) you'd be a totally different person - and ALL (ALL!!!) your decisions will stem from that and therefore no space for freewill whatsoever.

It IS stubbornness to keep saying it is a lie without offering anything that refutes it.
It is also stubbornness to keep saying someone assigned attributes to God when he clearly didn't. When he infact wrote: "You can't know God by logic, reasoning, or attributes"!

You based your entire thesis on using pre-determined systems to disprove the existence of free will. When present circumstances defeat you already—that's intellectual dishonesty.

I acknowledged every single special pleading you could ever cook up under the set of choices under physical constraints but yet you have in no wise disproved that the complementary set, is not your own— The set of choices not affected by physical constraints.

This is my submission to you. If you both can't see the coexistence of both systems then you both are intellectually dishonest.

FreeIgboho:
Even LordReed agreed that if everything said about Jesus in the Bible were proven true he'd also believe he is God (if he were open to such belief). LordReed!! LordReed who is beyond atheist and is igtheist!!

You can't know better than all the generations of people who foretold Jesus as God coming, worshipped him when he came, and still worshipping him over 2000 years later!

Eleventy billion wrong people are still wrong. Their vast numbers don't make them right.

FreeIgboho:
Folks, please forgive us but we have a serious problem that we hope you can help us resolve. Please observe the scenario below. No matter how we configure it we arrive at the same conclusion: there is no such thing as freewill. This has led us to helplessness, hopelessness, and depression. Please is there ANY WAY we can configure this so there's space for freewill. (Please disregard for now the assumption that God already knows everything you'll ever do - that's story for another day)

Here's the scenario:

A child is born, he has no hand in anything he was given including his very brain, personality, circumstances of birth, experiences, etc. His brain starts working immediately, gathering info and programming itself, all independent of his input. Based on these info, thoughts appear in the child's consciousness without his input and based on these thoughts he takes actions. These are his thoughts and he has no real power to override them. And even if he could, he'd still override them with thoughts that come from the same brain processes he has no control over. This continues all life long - his thoughts, intentions, and feelings appear from processes within his brain that he's not even aware of talkless of controlling.
Please can you find us space for freewill in all this OR can you please tell us where freewill can come from? Feel free to use AI.
Thanks.



MaxInDHouse, Janosky, LordReed, DeepSight,
tctrills, Dtruthspeaker, Everyday247, Ruke1990, sonmvayina, MeetDx, gabrielshow24
/////////////
jimRohn, Kobojunkie, FxMasterz, maynman, DrJones109, Jesusjnr2022, Jaephoenix, JessicaRabbit, Knownunknown, BBIA HellVictorinho6, SIXFEETUNDER, OkpaNsukkaisBae, Bacteriologist, FRANCISTOWN, SIRTee15, Aemmyjah, TheSourcerer, Busybrain2233, 1Sharon, TakeNigeriaBack,
Botragelad, isan, Fourthpredator,
seun, hopefullandlord, bobestman, Lorrayne, HardMirror, Hahn, SlawG, albreezy4eva, Muslim, Dominique, Mrbroke, EnemyofGod2, kkins25, Wilgrea7, A001, Maynthemayn, Ken4Christ, Ohyoudidnt, WeirdAlien, Linaloca7, Explore2xmore, armchairscholar, gohf, TenQ, Steep, Chibuezem

What does freewill mean to you?

If it means freedom to do whatever a person desires then isn't that more of an illusion than "freewill" as even if you believe you can fly while jumping off a mountain would you, meaning you are not free to fly.

Why not show us what and how you understand freewill is.

By the way Jesus said this in John.8.36, So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.

Do not assumed that humans have some sort of freedom we are under the bondage of the flesh sin and death and only Jesus can give us freedom.

God did give us a choice to choose that freedom, John.3.16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

So it doesn't matter where a person is born or the kind of brainwashing they have undergone, if they choose to obey God and follow his son Jesus Christ they will be truly free and no more bond by those things you listed above, by their flesh and carnal reasonings and all.

FreeIgboho:
I guess you didn't read the first part of the original post. Here it is. Read it and say if you still think any other person in human history has been like Jesus.


Reasons why Jesus is DEFINITELY God the Son of God:

1) Thousands of years before he was born prophets prophesied that God was coming to visit us. Old Testament (OT) is full of references to his coming.
No other person in the history of mankind has this happened with.

2) Before he came a mighty prophet was sent to prepare his way. John the Baptist (JohnTB) said that was all he came to do. And that he (a mighty prophet) was not fit to untie Jesus' shoe.

3) At his baptism a dove descended on him and a voice from heaven (identified as God the Father), proclaimed, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased," (Matthew 3:17)

4) When he finally came, he himself said he was the long-awaited God and did things God would do - he was after people's souls not money, he forgave sins, accepted worship, raised people from dead, and said he himself was the truth, the life, and the righteousness, and no one came to his Father except through him.

5) He said you'd know he's truly God the Son because his words would never pass away

6) He said he'd raise himself from the dead, and did just that and in such a way that the wrappings used to wrap the body were NOT disturbed

7) Thousands of years after his death he's being worshipped as God and his words have never passed away - exactly as he said!

8} He is worshipped interchangeably with the Father. No other person has been so worshipped
in human history.

9) The Father has been pleased with his worshippers and showered them with blessings. They also worship and call on the Father constantly and he accepts their prayers.

10) He is alive and active in people's lives TODAY!
----------------

1. Scripture states God was coming to judge not die shed his blood for sins.

2. John the baptist never declared Jesus to be God. He declared Jesus to be the son of God stating that the one who sent John revealed it to him

3. God called Jesus is son, a product from him. If he were god like you claimed the truth would be God declaring that this was him in the flesh

4. Jesus never said he was the or any "long awaited" God. The things Jesus did were the things God has been doing through his servants but much more was done through his son Jesus Christ.

5. Jesus is God's son and not God the son, for there is only one true God, his father the Almighty creator of all.

6. Jesus did not raise himself from the dead, God did, God gave him the power to lay his life and take it up again. He could do nothing without God's power and permission.

7. Jesus being worshipped by God is by the deception of the devil, that brought in such corruption

8. Jesus is worshipped as our Lord, the Christ anointed by God, as commanded by God. Men have been worshipped as kings, as fathers etc

9&10 sound like things made up to make it up to 10

Gabrielshow24:
The question, you asked me. I have answered. You brought up the concept of evil, along with the supposed lack of awareness of God to his disciples, along with the need of multitude of prayers. I have given you the biblical stance, and if you seek another. Kindly look up Godel's refutation using modal logic.

I won't continue another futile conversation with you. We won't agree and also circumstances have refuted you already! 😂

As for that nestorian, your partner in chief—The one that proposes Jesus an hybrid. I wish you both good luck.

You didn't answer anything or you'd have simply restated your answer. Here's the question you raised again:
Why does an all-good, all-powerful God allow evil?

Gabrielshow24:
You based your entire thesis on using pre-determined systems to disprove the existence of free will. When present circumstances defeat you already—that's intellectual dishonesty.

I acknowledged every single special pleading you could ever cook up under the set of choices under physical constraints but yet you have in no wise disproved that the complementary set, is not your own— The set of choices not affected by physical constraints.

This is my submission to you. If you both can't see the coexistence of both systems then you both are intellectually dishonest.

See how concise my statement was? Refute it concisely too, possibly with a single word:
Where would that your freewill come from??

FreeIgboho:
You didn't answer anything or you'd have simply restated your answer. Here's the question you raised again:
Why does an all-good, all-powerful God allow evil?

I didn't raise any question. You raised such in your bid to render the prayer of Paul useless. You posted that question and I have answered you scripturally, I even surmised that such should have been taught to you in Sunday school!

I won't indulge you any longer, as it will only be a waste of time. I have referred you to Godel's refutation if my biblical exemplification was not enough—Possibly, with your Church's Sunday school lessons.

Your dogmatic stance even against direct, or circumstantial facts is appalling and riddikulus!

FreeIgboho:
See how concise my statement was? Refute it concisely too, possibly with a single word:
Where would that your freewill come from??

From the product of the internalization of your circumstances

When circumstancial facts and evidence are dismissed by you, then definitely any further engagement is futile.

Believe what you want to believe, even against reason, and I will believe in the coexistence of both systems! bye👋

LordReed:
Eleventy billion wrong people are still wrong. Their vast numbers don't make them right.

Not with the way it happened with Jesus (over thousands of years and by unimpeachable people).
See a list of who has to be wrong:
*Isaiah and other prophets (prophets who were never wrong)
* John the Baptist
* The 3 kings who worshipped him as an infant
* Peter and other apostles
* Jesus himself who said he was the Alpha and Omega and the "I AM"
*The 300 bishops at Nicea who were almost unanimous
* Etc