₦airaland Forum

Idaytesj29:
Yeah 1917, the declaration came first. Before other lobbying and support of US and Britain make it a reality.

Without US and British might, the state wouldn't have been created. And all these atrocious actions of Israel is because they know they have Western backing not any God's chosen clause or anything.
Everyone on this earth is Gods creation, loved and chosen by God. He never discriminates.

Correct!

Some people just like to write anything to make themselves happy. They want the Jews to accept what they (Arabs) can never ever tolerate.
Just imagine if the Romans had defeated and sacked the Arabs from Mecca, Medina and other important towns or places in Saudi Arabia including the Kaaba. And then some centuries later, the Jews take over Mecca, Medina claiming the land belongs to them. One can just imagine the total carnage, destruction and religious war (Jihad) that would have been declared everywhere against all Jews and possibly other tribes and/or religions.

mikeapollo:
Some people just like to write anything to make themselves happy. They want the Jews to accept what they (Arabs) can never ever tolerate.
Just imagine if the Romans had defeated and sacked the Arabs from Mecca, Medina and other important towns or places in Saudi Arabia including the Kaaba. And then some centuries later, the Jews take over Mecca, Medina claiming the land belongs to them. One can just imagine the total carnage, destruction and religious war (Jihad) that would have been declared everywhere against all Jews and possibly other tribes and/or religions.

Feel free to mention my name. No need to call me "some people."
Good morning.

DeepSight:
Feel free to mention my name. No need to call me "some people."
Good morning.

For your information, I don't personalize issues or debates on online platforms, and I would not call people names or use derogatory words on someone online because he/she has contrary opinion on an issue happening at a place far away from my location.
You are not necessarily the only person that may have a contrary opinion on the topic, so I don't have to mention your name. But you are free to "buy" and arrogate the debate on the matter to yourself and make it personal if ithat would satisfy your cravings.
Good morning.

DeepSight:
Alright, thank you for this. However, notwithstanding that you have said we should focus only on the historical, I must emphasize that it is crucial that the religious considerations are put away in this matter. This is because religion tends to be subjective and anyone can claim their God/ god or gods gave them any given set of promises or directives. I can wake up tomorrow and say I have heard from my God that the whole Earth is the inheritance of my descendants alone and that I am mandated to exterminate everyone else. This should not be invalid because afterall, Abraham was just one man like me - if his god could speak to him and make promises to him, so can mine. I don't want to go as far as to mention all of the barbaric genocidal injunctions given by Yahweh to the Jews in the Bible, but it is worth mentioning - to establish a pattern - to show that what is happening today is not new - and thus it is not just a question of Arabs being the problem.

Historically Jews have insisted that their blood thirsty pagan mountain deity called Yahweh has issued genocidal commands to them, and it is by means of these commands that they even came to posess the so called promised land. Therefore, let us stay well away from any such religious claims for all can play that game, as indeed the Arabs and Muslims also have, through history.



So here is what is at issue. Ownership of land is a delicate thing. The way land rights have always worked, it is simply impossible to deny the rights of an occupant who had dwelt in a place for centuries. Thus, the example of the Europeans in America I hitherto used. They travelled there, met Native Americans there - conquered them and virtually wiped them off the surface of the Earth through the gun and disease. Today, Europeans have held America for some three to four centuries. The time which has passed has bequeathed them what you may call a right of occupancy. Whether they came there justly or unjustly, the time which has passed is sufficient to render it legitimate that their descendants now dwell there rightly. Thus, even though a purist like myself may argue that if the Native Americans summon the will, the resources and the technology today and are able to push the "encroachers" out of America, it is right and fair, in all truth, too much time has passed.

In this same way, the history of the matter is that roughly two thousand years ago, the Romans destroyed Jerusalem and scattered the Jews into diaspora. They went into Persia but mostly into Europe where they suffered much persecution through the middle ages, the renaissance, the enlightenment and all the way through to the 20th century where they sufferred the holocaust.

In the intervening time, Islam had arisen in the 7th Century AD, and by the turn of the millenium the crusades had begun in which troupe after troupe of christian armies generation after generation sought to displace the Muslims from the "Holy Land." This went back and forth over a couple of centuries and the land would alternate between Islamic and Christian authority - all the time retaining a small Jewish population. I am sure you know of the great encounters between Richard the Lion Heart and Saladin. And too many more stories of that period. The long and short of it is that the presensce of Arabs in that land dates back at least one thousand years now.

And the argument I am making is that if European Americans can now consider North America their homeland after being there for a few centuries, how much more the Arabs who have been in Palestine for over a thousand years?

Now, moving on, by the time the second world war ended, I hope you know that the British had made promises to the Jews via Zionists that they would create a homeland for them in Palestine. At that time, the place was mostly occupied by Arabs like I said, for about a thousand years already. It is unreasonable to claim that it was not home to them. Besides, the European Jews who were returning had been so adulterated that one cannot really claim that they are necessarily of the same ancestry as the Israelites of old. Frankly, most of them today are noticeably white.

Nevertheless, they came back. What did you expect? Did you expect that the Arbas there would not resist? Of course they would. It is only natural. Just as if Native Americans make a come back today from tthe settlements they have been restricted to, to take up most of America, do you dare to think that the current European descendants who control that country will not fiercely resist them? Of course they will.

I have written a lot so far so let me just summarize: the point is that compromises must be made. Israel of today is a creation of the United Nations and that same United Nations has repeatedly said that the settlements in the West Bank are illegal. You keep referring to Palestinians as savages and that is absurd. It is not savage to fight to defend your land. Especially from an occupier who imposes apartheid restrictions on you the same way white people did to black people in apartheid South Africa.

You call them terrorists, but I hope you know the whites also called Nelson Mandela a terrorist? I hope you know the USA kept him on their terrorism watchlist up till 2008? What does that teach you? It shoudl teach you that those who resist European imperialism are routinely labelled terrorists - even when they are actually the victims of terrorism.

There is a historical reason both Ireland and South Africa stand solidly with Palestine - and it is because BOTH countries have experienced EXACTLY what Palestine is experiencing right now - the arrogation of power by other people and oppression in their own native lands and homes.

With due respect, no one comes back to a land after 2, 000 years to assert that he owns it because his ancestors lived there. Many different peoples ancestors have lived on the same land throughout time.

What is of particular concern today is the fact that Israel literaly cages Palestine. It controls its borders. It determines what goes in and what goes out. In the West Bank there are selected roads for Jews and selected roads for Palestinians. That is apartheid in its purest and most undeniable form. And that is a sin against the conscience of humanity.

So when many people talk all the time ignorantly saying that this started on Octover 7, with due respect, it did not. October 7 was at best a reaction against occupation. And just look at the toll. Do you want to compare 1, 200 to over 60, 000? Where is the proportionality? You have the world's biggest super power cooperating and funding to exterminate such a powerless people. How is that just? I hope you know over 145 of the members of the United Nations recognise Palestine as a state but they are still being denied statehood simply because of US veto power. And yet you yourself acknowledged the right to self determination. Today, European states which all supported Israel in this matter are moving towards recognising Palestine by next month all because of how far Israel has gone in its cruelty. It has become a sore wound on the conscience of the world. There is an extent you can go to even when you are right in a matter in which the world will turn against you when you have gone too far - not that Israel was right anyway in this. Enough said for now.



In the case of Israel, there is a deliberate effort to mass murder Palestinians. Not mere miscalculations.

Let me add: Are you aware Netanyahu sponsored Hamas? You dont seem to know the game being played.

cc:

Kukutente23
Tctrills
Mikeapollo
IdaytesJ29

Oga we both know that you are not interested in my contribution so why did you mention me?

Now to your last statement about Netanyahu sponsoring Hamas.
You have shown that you are only interested in half-truths than in understanding.
If I have 2 enemies and both hate themselves, sponsoring one over the other could be very strategic. We have seen Israel over time force the Palestine organization and bring them to the table using this method. The west Bank is relatively safer because of this and other strategies.
What you do is very easy. With zero experience or understanding of war, you condemn Israel without offering a better method to fight the terrorists on both their eastern and western borders.

Anyway, Israel is no longer sponsoring Hamas, they are now wiping them off the face of the earth so people like you no longer have a reason to complain.

DeepSight:
Alright, thank you for this. However, notwithstanding that you have said we should focus only on the historical, I must emphasize that it is crucial that the religious considerations are put away in this matter. This is because religion tends to be subjective and anyone can claim their God/ god or gods gave them any given set of promises or directives. I can wake up tomorrow and say I have heard from my God that the whole Earth is the inheritance of my descendants alone and that I am mandated to exterminate everyone else. This should not be invalid because afterall, Abraham was just one man like me - if his god could speak to him and make promises to him, so can mine. I don't want to go as far as to mention all of the barbaric genocidal injunctions given by Yahweh to the Jews in the Bible, but it is worth mentioning - to establish a pattern - to show that what is happening today is not new - and thus it is not just a question of Arabs being the problem.

Historically Jews have insisted that their blood thirsty pagan mountain deity called Yahweh has issued genocidal commands to them, and it is by means of these commands that they even came to posess the so called promised land. Therefore, let us stay well away from any such religious claims for all can play that game, as indeed the Arabs and Muslims also have, through history.



So here is what is at issue. Ownership of land is a delicate thing. The way land rights have always worked, it is simply impossible to deny the rights of an occupant who had dwelt in a place for centuries. Thus, the example of the Europeans in America I hitherto used. They travelled there, met Native Americans there - conquered them and virtually wiped them off the surface of the Earth through the gun and disease. Today, Europeans have held America for some three to four centuries. The time which has passed has bequeathed them what you may call a right of occupancy. Whether they came there justly or unjustly, the time which has passed is sufficient to render it legitimate that their descendants now dwell there rightly. Thus, even though a purist like myself may argue that if the Native Americans summon the will, the resources and the technology today and are able to push the "encroachers" out of America, it is right and fair, in all truth, too much time has passed.

In this same way, the history of the matter is that roughly two thousand years ago, the Romans destroyed Jerusalem and scattered the Jews into diaspora. They went into Persia but mostly into Europe where they suffered much persecution through the middle ages, the renaissance, the enlightenment and all the way through to the 20th century where they sufferred the holocaust.

In the intervening time, Islam had arisen in the 7th Century AD, and by the turn of the millenium the crusades had begun in which troupe after troupe of christian armies generation after generation sought to displace the Muslims from the "Holy Land." This went back and forth over a couple of centuries and the land would alternate between Islamic and Christian authority - all the time retaining a small Jewish population. I am sure you know of the great encounters between Richard the Lion Heart and Saladin. And too many more stories of that period. The long and short of it is that the presensce of Arabs in that land dates back at least one thousand years now.

And the argument I am making is that if European Americans can now consider North America their homeland after being there for a few centuries, how much more the Arabs who have been in Palestine for over a thousand years?

Now, moving on, by the time the second world war ended, I hope you know that the British had made promises to the Jews via Zionists that they would create a homeland for them in Palestine. At that time, the place was mostly occupied by Arabs like I said, for about a thousand years already. It is unreasonable to claim that it was not home to them. Besides, the European Jews who were returning had been so adulterated that one cannot really claim that they are necessarily of the same ancestry as the Israelites of old. Frankly, most of them today are noticeably white.

Nevertheless, they came back. What did you expect? Did you expect that the Arbas there would not resist? Of course they would. It is only natural. Just as if Native Americans make a come back today from tthe settlements they have been restricted to, to take up most of America, do you dare to think that the current European descendants who control that country will not fiercely resist them? Of course they will.

I have written a lot so far so let me just summarize: the point is that compromises must be made. Israel of today is a creation of the United Nations and that same United Nations has repeatedly said that the settlements in the West Bank are illegal. You keep referring to Palestinians as savages and that is absurd. It is not savage to fight to defend your land. Especially from an occupier who imposes apartheid restrictions on you the same way white people did to black people in apartheid South Africa.

You call them terrorists, but I hope you know the whites also called Nelson Mandela a terrorist? I hope you know the USA kept him on their terrorism watchlist up till 2008? What does that teach you? It shoudl teach you that those who resist European imperialism are routinely labelled terrorists - even when they are actually the victims of terrorism.

There is a historical reason both Ireland and South Africa stand solidly with Palestine - and it is because BOTH countries have experienced EXACTLY what Palestine is experiencing right now - the arrogation of power by other people and oppression in their own native lands and homes.

With due respect, no one comes back to a land after 2, 000 years to assert that he owns it because his ancestors lived there. Many different peoples ancestors have lived on the same land throughout time.

What is of particular concern today is the fact that Israel literaly cages Palestine. It controls its borders. It determines what goes in and what goes out. In the West Bank there are selected roads for Jews and selected roads for Palestinians. That is apartheid in its purest and most undeniable form. And that is a sin against the conscience of humanity.

So when many people talk all the time ignorantly saying that this started on Octover 7, with due respect, it did not. October 7 was at best a reaction against occupation. And just look at the toll. Do you want to compare 1, 200 to over 60, 000? Where is the proportionality? You have the world's biggest super power cooperating and funding to exterminate such a powerless people. How is that just? I hope you know over 145 of the members of the United Nations recognise Palestine as a state but they are still being denied statehood simply because of US veto power. And yet you yourself acknowledged the right to self determination. Today, European states which all supported Israel in this matter are moving towards recognising Palestine by next month all because of how far Israel has gone in its cruelty. It has become a sore wound on the conscience of the world. There is an extent you can go to even when you are right in a matter in which the world will turn against you when you have gone too far - not that Israel was right anyway in this. Enough said for now.



In the case of Israel, there is a deliberate effort to mass murder Palestinians. Not mere miscalculations.

Let me add: Are you aware Netanyahu sponsored Hamas? You dont seem to know the game being played.

cc:

Kukutente23
Tctrills
Mikeapollo
IdaytesJ29

Let me start like this:

1) Who is a Palestinian? A Palestinian is either a Jew or an Arab who lived in the Levant area of the Ottoman Empire and subsequently, the British mandate. Every historic account states this clearly that Jews and Arabs made up the population of Palestine even before the European Jews came there. I started with this because you were almost describing all the Jews in present-day Israel as aliens who came from Europe to reclaim something. There were Jews who never left.

2) Did you know that Palestine, before the British took over, never had an actual boundary; it was never a state with any kind of leadership structure. It was simply a geographic location that was part of the multiple empires that conquered it over the years, just like the Sahara Desert, which is today cut across multiple countries. No single country can lay claim to owning the Sahara. When the Ashkenazi Jews moved to Palestine from Europe, they settled in the open areas, legally bought land from the Ottoman government, the Arabs and subsequently, the British, who took over from the Ottomans to create Jewish communities. This was how Tel Aviv was created in 1909. Most of the land purchased by the Zionist Jews was swamps and inhospitable. Examples and references include the Sursock land purchases and the purchase of the Jezreel Valley, which was purchased from the Sursock Family. The land was recorded to be abandoned by the family as it was infected with malaria. The Balfour Declaration also confirmed the quality of land the Jews bought from the British government, who had taken charge from the Ottomans. The report states:

"Much of the land now carrying orange groves was sand dunes or swamp and uncultivated when it was bought. The shortage of land is, we consider, due less to purchase by Jews than to the increase in the Arab population."

This pattern of buying inhospitable land was a strategic choice to avoid displacing local Arab tenant farmers, or fellahin, who worked on more fertile, smaller plots. The buyers saw the opportunity to not only acquire land but to "redeem" it through reclamation efforts.

In one of my previous responses to you, I begged you to mention the names of Arab villages and communities taken over by the Jews before or in 1948, but you didn't mention any, so your claim that Jews not acknowledging the presence of Arabs on the land is utterly false. Also note that these lands purchased were completely different from communities already occupied by the Jews, who never left the Levant.

3) Did you know that when the British officially called the area "British Mandate of Palestine", the Arabs were not comfortable with the name "Palestine" as they claimed that it was an attempt to erase the Arab identity of the area? Today, these same people have embraced that name as a tool for political warfare against Israel. As stated by a PLO commander, Zuhair Mohsen and member of the PLO's executive committee, in an interview with Dutch newspaper Trouw on March 31, 1977:

"The Palestinian people do not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality, today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct 'Palestinian people' to oppose Zionism."

When the UN created the partition plan of 1947, the plan was to create a Jewish state and an Arab state, not a Palestinian state, because both parties were identified by their ethnicities, not as Palestinians. There were no "Palestinian people". The only Palestinian people were the ones newly invented by the British after they defeated the Ottoman Empire.

4) You mentioned the biblical claim of land by the Jews and even went ahead to call the Jewish God barbaric, and you also spoke about compromises. I'll address both. When the Jews in diaspora returned, they were hoping to get all of Palestine for their Jewish state. The British dealt a big blow to that plan by cutting a huge chunk of the land, a whopping 78% of it, to create Transjordan. At this point, it became clear to the Jews that the promised land their God offered them was no longer feasible in modern times. Following the creation of Transjordan in 1920, the Jews thought the remaining 22% of the land would be the Jewish state since the Arabs had gotten 78% already. That thought was dead on arrival as the Peel accords of 1937 carved out a small chunk of that 22% to be the Jewish state. The Jewish state was 17% of that small piece of land, largely made up of the old Jewish communities and the newly purchased Jewish lands, Jerusalem, and to extent, Bethlehem were to remain under the British Mandate due to their religious importance to both Jews and Arabs and this part made up 8% of the land, while he rest of the land, about 75% of the land was to be an Arab state. Despite the projections of the Jews, their Biblical beliefs and to their great disappointment, they accepted the deal nonetheless. That right there is the COMPROMISE you spoke of. What did the Arabs do? They rejected the idea of having a separate Jewish state and insisted on having just 1 country where Arabs will be the majority. That right there is NOT COMPROMISE. In this war, Israel has compromised by agreeing to release Palestinian prisoners, many of whom were charged with Murder and other crimes, including Hamas members. One of the youths who took part in the famous Ramallah lynching of 2000 was also released by Israel. This is a huge COMPROMISE as Israel is putting itself at risk by releasing these criminals to society, who can attack Israel in the future. On the other hand, one would expect Hamas, whose people are dying to also compromise by releasing all the hostages to stop these frequent Israeli attacks and the complete takeover of Gaza City, but no, Hamas and the Arabs never compromise, and unfortunately, no one is forcing them to, as everyone is focused on Israel.

Let me also copy the people you copied
cc:

Kukutente23
Tctrills
Mikeapollo
IdaytesJ29

DeepSight:
Alright, thank you for this. However, notwithstanding that you have said we should focus only on the historical, I must emphasize that it is crucial that the religious considerations are put away in this matter. This is because religion tends to be subjective and anyone can claim their God/ god or gods gave them any given set of promises or directives. I can wake up tomorrow and say I have heard from my God that the whole Earth is the inheritance of my descendants alone and that I am mandated to exterminate everyone else. This should not be invalid because afterall, Abraham was just one man like me - if his god could speak to him and make promises to him, so can mine. I don't want to go as far as to mention all of the barbaric genocidal injunctions given by Yahweh to the Jews in the Bible, but it is worth mentioning - to establish a pattern - to show that what is happening today is not new - and thus it is not just a question of Arabs being the problem.

Historically Jews have insisted that their blood thirsty pagan mountain deity called Yahweh has issued genocidal commands to them, and it is by means of these commands that they even came to posess the so called promised land. Therefore, let us stay well away from any such religious claims for all can play that game, as indeed the Arabs and Muslims also have, through history.



So here is what is at issue. Ownership of land is a delicate thing. The way land rights have always worked, it is simply impossible to deny the rights of an occupant who had dwelt in a place for centuries. Thus, the example of the Europeans in America I hitherto used. They travelled there, met Native Americans there - conquered them and virtually wiped them off the surface of the Earth through the gun and disease. Today, Europeans have held America for some three to four centuries. The time which has passed has bequeathed them what you may call a right of occupancy. Whether they came there justly or unjustly, the time which has passed is sufficient to render it legitimate that their descendants now dwell there rightly. Thus, even though a purist like myself may argue that if the Native Americans summon the will, the resources and the technology today and are able to push the "encroachers" out of America, it is right and fair, in all truth, too much time has passed.

In this same way, the history of the matter is that roughly two thousand years ago, the Romans destroyed Jerusalem and scattered the Jews into diaspora. They went into Persia but mostly into Europe where they suffered much persecution through the middle ages, the renaissance, the enlightenment and all the way through to the 20th century where they sufferred the holocaust.

In the intervening time, Islam had arisen in the 7th Century AD, and by the turn of the millenium the crusades had begun in which troupe after troupe of christian armies generation after generation sought to displace the Muslims from the "Holy Land." This went back and forth over a couple of centuries and the land would alternate between Islamic and Christian authority - all the time retaining a small Jewish population. I am sure you know of the great encounters between Richard the Lion Heart and Saladin. And too many more stories of that period. The long and short of it is that the presensce of Arabs in that land dates back at least one thousand years now.

And the argument I am making is that if European Americans can now consider North America their homeland after being there for a few centuries, how much more the Arabs who have been in Palestine for over a thousand years?

Now, moving on, by the time the second world war ended, I hope you know that the British had made promises to the Jews via Zionists that they would create a homeland for them in Palestine. At that time, the place was mostly occupied by Arabs like I said, for about a thousand years already. It is unreasonable to claim that it was not home to them. Besides, the European Jews who were returning had been so adulterated that one cannot really claim that they are necessarily of the same ancestry as the Israelites of old. Frankly, most of them today are noticeably white.

Nevertheless, they came back. What did you expect? Did you expect that the Arbas there would not resist? Of course they would. It is only natural. Just as if Native Americans make a come back today from tthe settlements they have been restricted to, to take up most of America, do you dare to think that the current European descendants who control that country will not fiercely resist them? Of course they will.

I have written a lot so far so let me just summarize: the point is that compromises must be made. Israel of today is a creation of the United Nations and that same United Nations has repeatedly said that the settlements in the West Bank are illegal. You keep referring to Palestinians as savages and that is absurd. It is not savage to fight to defend your land. Especially from an occupier who imposes apartheid restrictions on you the same way white people did to black people in apartheid South Africa.

You call them terrorists, but I hope you know the whites also called Nelson Mandela a terrorist? I hope you know the USA kept him on their terrorism watchlist up till 2008? What does that teach you? It shoudl teach you that those who resist European imperialism are routinely labelled terrorists - even when they are actually the victims of terrorism.

There is a historical reason both Ireland and South Africa stand solidly with Palestine - and it is because BOTH countries have experienced EXACTLY what Palestine is experiencing right now - the arrogation of power by other people and oppression in their own native lands and homes.

With due respect, no one comes back to a land after 2, 000 years to assert that he owns it because his ancestors lived there. Many different peoples ancestors have lived on the same land throughout time.

What is of particular concern today is the fact that Israel literaly cages Palestine. It controls its borders. It determines what goes in and what goes out. In the West Bank there are selected roads for Jews and selected roads for Palestinians. That is apartheid in its purest and most undeniable form. And that is a sin against the conscience of humanity.

So when many people talk all the time ignorantly saying that this started on Octover 7, with due respect, it did not. October 7 was at best a reaction against occupation. And just look at the toll. Do you want to compare 1, 200 to over 60, 000? Where is the proportionality? You have the world's biggest super power cooperating and funding to exterminate such a powerless people. How is that just? I hope you know over 145 of the members of the United Nations recognise Palestine as a state but they are still being denied statehood simply because of US veto power. And yet you yourself acknowledged the right to self determination. Today, European states which all supported Israel in this matter are moving towards recognising Palestine by next month all because of how far Israel has gone in its cruelty. It has become a sore wound on the conscience of the world. There is an extent you can go to even when you are right in a matter in which the world will turn against you when you have gone too far - not that Israel was right anyway in this. Enough said for now.



In the case of Israel, there is a deliberate effort to mass murder Palestinians. Not mere miscalculations.

Let me add: Are you aware Netanyahu sponsored Hamas? You dont seem to know the game being played.

cc:

Kukutente23
Tctrills
Mikeapollo
IdaytesJ29

Now, let me respond to some of your final statements:

Israel of today is a creation of the United Nations, and that same United Nations has repeatedly said that the settlements in the West Bank are illegal.

Helloooooo. The UN failed in its attempt to create a Jewish state, and its partition plan was null and void. That partition plan was rejected by the Arabs, who shot themselves in the foot by rejecting the 2nd peaceful attempt at a 2-state solution (the first attempt being the Peel Accords). The fact that the Jews initially created the state of Israel based on the map drawn in the partition plan does not mean it was the UN that created Israel. Israel was created with the blood of 1% of the Jewish population who fought an avoidable war started by the Arabs for their independence. The UN, which failed to broker peace in 1948, does not have the right to decide which border is legal or illegal. The West Bank, as we all know it is historic Judiah and Samariah, all historic Jewish territories, that was renamed West Bank by the Kingdom of Jordan in 1950 when it was formally annexed by King Abdullah I. Nobody, not the UN, the UK, the Arabs etc will tell the Jews not to build on Judea and Samaria. To hell with the Arabs and their hypocrisy. The moment they rejected the partition plan, that day they sealed their fate. All open land became open for all. So far, all official Israeli Government housing settlements in Judea and Samaria have been built on open, empty land. Another attempt by the Arabs to destroy Jewish heritage is the stupid mention of East and West Jerusalem. Jerusalem has always been the capital of the Jewish people. Never in history were there 2 Jerusalem cities until the 1948 Israel-Arab war (the war of independence), which saw Jordan take part of Jerusalem and the Jews manage to keep the other part of the city, splitting Jerusalem in half. Today, the world is trying to normalise the absurdity of 2 Jerusalem cities while wickedly giving all the ancient sites in East Jerusalem to the Arabs, including the holiest Jewish site, the Temple Mount. I for sure would never support the balkanization of Jerusalem into 2. Jerusalem is Jerusalem, and it will forever be the eternal capital of the Jewish people and Israel. If there will be a Palestinian state in our lifetime, let them use Ramallah as their capital.

You keep referring to Palestinians as savages, and that is absurd. It is not savage to fight to defend your land. Especially from an occupier who imposes apartheid restrictions on you the same way white people did to black people in apartheid South Africa.

I said it before, and I'll say again, Palestinians are savages. In Israel, Arabs muslims have equal rights as Jews, and there is no apartheid in Israel. If you were referring to the West Bank, then it's time to go down memory lane a little. Palestinians used to have unlimited access to Israel until the 2nd intifada took place. Israel, which had previously experienced the 1st intifada, which claimed many lives in Israel, and then experienced much bigger destruction and terrorist attacks during the 2nd intifada, had to take measures to protect the lives of its citizens. Some of the measures included the building of a separation wall to prevent uncontrolled entry of Palestinians into Israeli-controlled territories, and the introduction of checkpoints to search those who are coming into Israel from Palestinian-controlled territories. These measures were necessary as this is how any reasonable country will protect its citizens from savage neighbours. Also note that all the intifadas broke out after a peace deal. Still speaking of apartheid, just as Palestinians aren't allowed into Israeli-controlled areas in Judea and Samaria, Jews are also not allowed into Palestinian-controlled territories. The phrase "Jew-free Palestine" is a policy about the Palestinians to create a Palestinian state that has zero Jewish population. They achieved that in 2005 when the Jews left Gaza, and they have maintained that policy in all Palestinian-controlled territories in Judea and Samaria (West Bank). There are YouTube videos of tours across the West Bank which show signboards with the warning "No Jews Allowed" when entering Palestinian areas. As a white person heading from Israel into the Palestinian areas, the Israeli military will always advise against it because you can be lynched by those savages if they think you are Jewish. The Ramallah lynching of 2 Jews in the year 2000 comes to mind. Why Palestinians enter Israel, they get jobs, they buy goods, they access good healthcare services, etc, but when Jews enter any Palestinian area, they get lynched to death and no one sees anything wrong with that. In the Temple Mount compound, there are 10 gates to access the Temple Mount/Dome of the Rock. Muslism can enter through all 10 gates, but Jews and Christians are only allowed to enter through 1 gate. Looks familiar, right? That was the same thing that was happening in apartheid South Africa against Blacks. Here, it's happening to Jews, but no one screams apartheid at such discriminatory rules. While muslims go to the Dome of the Rock to pray, Muslims prevent Jews from going there to pray, knowing fully well that the place is also the Foundation of the Temple Mount. Like I said before, the Jews always compromise, but the savage Arabs who now call themselves Palestinians never compromise.
Did you know that the Palestinian Authority pays families whose family member kills a Jew? The picture of the person who killed the Jew will be hung in a war as a martyr worth emulating by others. Did you know that these Palestinian savages trooped out in their numbers to celebrate the 9/11 attacks in New York City? One would have expected them to at least be indifferent, as over 2900 people had just been killed in the US, the largest sponsor of aid to the Palestinians, but no, they instead celebrated like they had won a jackpot. Did you know that Palestinians celebrated after the October 7 attacks on Israel in 2023? Those savages marched into Israel alongside Hamas fighters to kidnap Israeli people, and they cheered on the streets of Gaza as the naked and raped body of an Israeli girl was paraded. I can go on and on to tell you how savage and barbaric those human animals are (as described by Israel's former defence minister).

So when many people talk all the time ignorantly saying that this started on October 7, with due respect, it did not. October 7 was at best a reaction against the occupation. And just look at the toll. Do you want to compare 1,200 to over 60,000? Where is the proportionality?

This is another funny statement to say the least. I don't care the year you claim it started, because in all cases, the Jews are right. 1948 started just like October 7. The Arabs launched a war, they lost and instantly became the victims of the war they started. Such silly people who have continued to repeat the same mistake for 77 years and counting. If you want, we can also say it didn't start in 1948, but since the time of the Roman Empire. For the toll, there are over 20 thousand Hamas fighters. So out of over 20,000 Hamas fighters, Israel is expected to kill only 1,200, so the death toll will be proportionate, right? During World War 2, Britain carpet bombed Berlin, Germany, which killed more people than those killed when the Nazi's bombed London. I guess the UK was wrong. They should have counted the number of Brits killed and also aimed to kill the exact number in Germany to ensure proportionality. I hope you can see how funny your statement is. A report was released earlier this year stating that of the 17,000 Hamas fighters killed by Israel, Hamas has been able to replace them with more fighters. I guess Israel has to stop bombing Hamas to ensure proportionality, even if Hamas recruits more people, and by the way, where is Hamas getting these new recruits from? I guess from the "innocent and peaceful civilians in Gaza."

I hope you know over 145 of members of the United Nations recognise Palestine

I don't care if 1 million countries recognise a Palestinian state; this war must continue until all the hostages are released and Hamas surrenders. Also, the Jewish settlements in Judea and Samaria will neither be destroyed nor be part of any Palestinian state, and the same goes for any part of Jerusalem.

In the case of Israel, there is a deliberate effort to mass murder Palestinians. Not mere miscalculations.

Let the Prime Minister of Israel say, "If we wanted to commit a genocide, we would have done that in one afternoon." The Palestinians are lucky to be up against Israel, which frequently moves the civilians from place to place to minimise casualties. If Taiwan had done an Oct 7 on China, would Taiwan still be an autonomous territory after 2 years? If Afghanistan did an Oct 7 on Iran, would Afghanistan still be a country today? If Mexico had done an Oct 7 on the US, what would have happened to Mexico after 2 years of fighting? If Ukraine had done this to Russia or South Korea on North Korea, what would the results be like? You know the answers to these questions, but I'm sure your bias wouldn't let you admit it.

I'll end my response by saying "Israel is fighting for its existence and must stop at nothing to destroy anything and anyone that tries to throw the Jews into disarray a 2nd time. War has consequences. War is not genocide. Don't start wars if you are not ready to face the consequences of it. "

Let me also copy the people you copied
cc:

Kukutente23
Tctrills
Mikeapollo
IdaytesJ29

Unbiased1, thank you for your detailed responses. I have digested them and will consider what parts I may wish to respond to in time. Whilst I strongly disagree with your views (and I mean very very strongly) I am pleased to at least be discussing with one who has taken the time to be detailed with the events he wishes to discuss.

PS: I noticed you were silent on Netanyahu sponsoring Hamas.

tctrills:
Oga we both know that you are not interested in my contribution so why did you mention me?

Now to your last statement about Netanyahu sponsoring Hamas.
You have shown that you are only interested in half-truths than in understanding.
If I have 2 enemies and both hate themselves, sponsoring one over the other could be very strategic. We have seen Israel over time force the Palestine organization and bring them to the table using this method. The west Bank is relatively safer because of this and other strategies.
What you do is very easy. With zero experience or understanding of war, you condemn Israel without offering a better method to fight the terrorists on both their eastern and western borders.

Anyway, Israel is no longer sponsoring Hamas, they are now wiping them off the face of the earth so people like you no longer have a reason to complain.

If I was not interested in your views, I would not cc you. The thing is I hate arrogant and dismissive attitudes to human suffering and oppression.

DeepSight:
If I was not interested in your views, I would not cc you. The thing is I hate arrogant and dismissive attitudes to human suffering and oppression.

You only hate Israel. You don't care about any other suffering group except perhaps in your imaginary book.

tctrills:
You only hate Israel. You don't care about any other suffering group except perhaps in your imaginary book.

So according to you Israel is suffering: and their suffering matches that of those they are torturing, caging, oppressing, starving and killing?

DeepSight:
So according to you Israel is suffering: and their suffering matches that of those they are torturing, caging, oppressing, starving and killing?

Now this suffering Olympics you are trying to create makes no sense.
You (Nigerians) are suffering much more than the Palestinians.
These evil Palestinians are pampered lazy goats who have refused peace and who love death more than life. They were given every chance but they said No. I don't know what you expect of Israel.
Honestly, Israel has tried. No other nation will tolerate such nonsense.

tctrills:
Now this suffering Olympics you are trying to create makes no sense.
You (Nigerians) are suffering much more than the Palestinians.
These evil Palestinians are pampered lazy goats who have refused peace and who love death more than life. They were given every chance but they said No. I don't know what you expect of Israel.
Honestly, Israel has tried. No other nation will tolerate such nonsense.

Jesus Christ of Nazareth.

DeepSight:
Jesus Christ of Nazareth.

Enjoy.
Just because you have decided to support evil doesn't mean the rest of us should.
We know enough history not to be fooled.
Please fight for Nigerians. They are suffering more than these pampered fools

tctrills:
Enjoy.
Just because you have decided to support evil doesn't mean the rest of us should.
We know enough history not to be fooled.
Please fight for Nigerians. They are suffering more than these pampered fools

Look at the words you are using on an occupied people. "Lazy Goats".... "Pampered fools?"

Have you no conscience?

These are the sort of words your imperialist white masters will be happy to hear as they used them on all Africans including the oppressed South Africans during Apartheid. Nevermind that they called them terrorists too, while terrorizing them.

DeepSight:
Look at the words you are using on an occupied people. "Lazy Goats".... "Pampered fools?"

Have you no conscience?

These are the sort of words your imperialist white masters will be happy to hear as they used them on all Africans including the oppressed South Africans during Apartheid. Nevermind that they called them terrorists too, while terrorizing them.

Lol. That dude is actually using kind words to describe the Palestinians. Palestinians are way worse. By the way, I have discovered that lots of people who responded to me have had their comments deleted by the moderators or bot. I would love to read your responses if you guys can comment again.

Unbiased1:
Lol. That dude is actually using kind words to describe the Palestinians. Palestinians are way worse. By the way, I have discovered that lots of people who responded to me have had their comments deleted by the moderators or bot. I would love to read your responses if you guys can comment again.

Oh definitely I am coming for you. I like your thoroughness even if we don't agree. Will revert soon.

Unbiased1:
Let me start like this:

1) Who is a Palestinian? A Palestinian is either a Jew or an Arab who lived in the Levant area of the Ottoman Empire and subsequently, the British mandate. Every historic account states this clearly that Jews and Arabs made up the population of Palestine even before the European Jews came there. I started with this because you were almost describing all the Jews in present-day Israel as aliens who came from Europe to reclaim something. There were Jews who never left.

You will note that I acknowledged that there was a remnant of Jews there, nevertheless this was a very small minority.

At the end of the 19th century, the Jewish population in Palestine constituted a small minority, making up about 5-7% of the total population. The majority of the population was Muslim (around 80%) and Christian (around 10%)."

Please look at the table of demographics in the link below which sets out the percentage of population of each group (Muslim, Christian and Jewish) at various points in history.

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jewish-and-non-jewish-population-of-israel-palestine-1517-present

You will note that -

1. From 1517 to 1882 through the rule of the Ottoman empire, the Jewish population varied from 1.7% to 8%. Thus it is clear that the Jews were a distinct minority throughout that period.

2. By the end of the 1st World War, they had become 9.1%.

3. Throughout the period of the British Mandate they grew from 11 percent in 1922 to 32% in 1937. This was the period of the first wave of significant Zionist migration from Europe, and so it is obvious that the majority of Jews in the land were now migrants from Europe.

But hang on, the evidence gets worse -

4. Between 1947 and 1948 - a period of one year only - the year of the creation of the State of Israel, the percentage of Jews jumped from 32% to a staggering 82% - in ONE year only!

This shows conclusively two things -

a. That the migration from Europe formed almost all of the population of Jews by that time as compared to the negligible percent prior to the British Mandate

b.In the same period of ONE year the poulation of non-Jews fell from 1.3 million people to 156, 000 people!

The foregoing discloses conclusively what had transpired. A mass migration of Europeans had flooded the land and there was a mass evacuation/ removal of non-Jews.

Please note that these figures are from the Jewish Virtual Library, lest you claim they are biased.

Therefore the case is firmly made, that the Jews of today are essentially European migrants.

It is also crucial to note that the Arabs had been on that land prior to that time since the time of the Byzantinne Empire for some 1, 300 years.

https://www.un.org/unispal/document/auto-insert-206581/

And as I have said repeatedly in my last submission, it is absurd to deny a people who have been on a land for over a millenium their indigeneship of that land. I repeatedly used the example of Europeans in America who have only been there for a few centuries and yet no one questions their right to be there.

2) Did you know that Palestine, before the British took over, never had an actual boundary

This is false. Both the Romans and Ottomans had clear boundaries of their territories there, for example. But the fact still remains that Arbas had occupied the land in question for over a millenium. And that speaks for itself.

In one of my previous responses to you, I begged you to mention the names of Arab villages and communities taken over by the Jews before or in 1948, but you didn't mention any, so your claim that Jews not acknowledging the presence of Arabs on the land is utterly false. Also note that these lands purchased were completely different from communities already occupied by the Jews, who never left the Levant.

This is a meaningless point. Even today American States and cities bear Native American names. Where do you think names like Alabama, Alaska, Arizona, Arkansas, Connecticut, Hawaii, Idaho, Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Kentucky, Massachussets, Michigan, Minnessota, Missisipi, Missouri, Nebraska, Ohio, Oklahoma, North/ South Dakota, Tenessee, Texas, Utah, Wisconsin, Wyoming - all come from?

All these are Native American names or derive from them and this shows you that it is normal and natural for the old names of a place can and are often retained and this does not then mean that the current white population should all be chased away from America does it? As I have said before, as a purist, I dont mind that happening if the scanty Native Americans can muster the might, but I acknowledged that the time which has passed and the length for which the current population has dwelt there already renders the point quite meaningless as that length of time has effectively made those places their genuine homeland.

How much more for Arabs who have been in Palestine for over 1, 300 years? ? ? ?

Now to hammer this point home and show just how meaningless it is for you, where do you think the so called Jewish names of most of the old towns and cities came from? Thats right - they were old Canaanite names that preceded the time of the Jewish invasion of the land! Examples -

----------------

Jerusalem (Yerushalayim)
Original Name: The earliest known name for the city is Urusalim, found in ancient Egyptian texts from the 14th century BCE. The name is believed to be of Canaanite origin, possibly meaning "foundation of the god Shalim" (a Canaanite deity) or "city of peace."

Hebron (Hebron)
Original Name: The ancient name of the city was likely Hebron, as it is referred to in the Hebrew Bible. The name's origin is debated, but some scholars suggest it may be related to the root ḥbr, meaning "to be joined" or "alliance." The name has been in use since the Canaanite period.

Beth She'an (Beit She'an)
Original Name: The city was known as Beth-shean or Beth-shan in ancient times. The name is a Semitic term meaning "house of comfort" or possibly "house of the god She'an." It was a significant Canaanite city-state.

Jaffa (Yafo)
Original Name: The city's name, Jaffa, is one of the oldest port city names in the world and is mentioned in ancient Egyptian texts and the Hebrew Bible.

Tel Megiddo (Megiddo)
Original Name: The ancient city, a site of numerous historical battles, was known as Megiddo to the Canaanites.

Gezer (Gezer)
Original Name: Gezer was a major Canaanite city-state, frequently mentioned in the Amarna Letters (ancient Egyptian correspondence). Its name likely means "a separated place" or "a cutting."

- - - Culled.

There we go. So summarily you can see how meaningless your point on the names of villages and towns is!

Now as to your question as to what Arab towns and villages were taken over, the radical change in demography by ethnic percentages between 1922 and 1948 suffices without mentioning any list of towns. From a Jewish population of 11 % in 1922 to 80 per cent in 1948 (fifty per cent of which came from Europe in the last one year before 1948) -is enough to prove the point!

3) Did you know that when the British officially called the area "British Mandate of Palestine", the Arabs were not comfortable with the name "Palestine" as they claimed that it was an attempt to erase the Arab identity of the area? Today, these same people have embraced that name as a tool for political warfare against Israel. As stated by a PLO commander, Zuhair Mohsen and member of the PLO's executive committee, in an interview with Dutch newspaper Trouw on March 31, 1977:

"The Palestinian people do not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality, today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct 'Palestinian people' to oppose Zionism."

Frankly the name is not important. That is looking at form over substance. The substance is the fact that you had a local population of Arabs, Christians and Jews (majority being Arabs) for centuries. Indeed as late as the 16th century the evidence above shows that only 1.7% of that population was Jewish. So you can bicker about names, but an apple by any other name will still remain what is known as an apple.

When the UN created the partition plan of 1947, the plan was to create a Jewish state and an Arab state, not a Palestinian state, because both parties were identified by their ethnicities, not as Palestinians.

So why is there a Jewish State today which is resisting the existence of an Arab State, even after occupying the little land left to them, cornering them and oppresing them?

There were no "Palestinian people". The only Palestinian people were the ones newly invented by the British after they defeated the Ottoman Empire.

As I have said, the name is inconsiquential.

Were there people called "Americans" at a point in history? No.

The key thing with reference to the area called Palestine is that there was a local population of different ethnicities, simple. Attempting to say that "Palestinians do not exist" today is a racist statement geared at extermination and ethnic cleansing.

4) You mentioned the biblical claim of land by the Jews and even went ahead to call the Jewish God barbaric, and you also spoke about compromises. I'll address both. When the Jews in diaspora returned, they were hoping to get all of Palestine for their Jewish state. The British dealt a big blow to that plan by cutting a huge chunk of the land, a whopping 78% of it, to create Transjordan. At this point, it became clear to the Jews that the promised land their God offered them was no longer feasible in modern times.

We agreed to leave out the promises of any imaginary God from this discussion as anyone can do that. Nonetheless, nowhere in Jewish history did the state of Israel extend to cover all of that country today known as Jordan. Parts of that land were conquered by Israel and given to the tribes of Reuben and Gaad, but much of it remained with Canaanite tribes such as the Moabites, Edomites and Ammonites. But this is irrelevant because the table detailing the population of the current land at issue through the centuries (the link from the Jewish Virtual Library which I gave above) discloses that the current land being discussed - not Jordan - was populated up till 1948 by a Muslim majority.

Following the creation of Transjordan in 1920, the Jews thought the remaining 22% of the land would be the Jewish state since the Arabs had gotten 78% already. That thought was dead on arrival as the Peel accords of 1937 carved out a small chunk of that 22% to be the Jewish state. The Jewish state was 17% of that small piece of land, largely made up of the old Jewish communities and the newly purchased Jewish lands, Jerusalem, and to extent, Bethlehem were to remain under the British Mandate due to their religious importance to both Jews and Arabs and this part made up 8% of the land, while he rest of the land, about 75% of the land was to be an Arab state. Despite the projections of the Jews, their Biblical beliefs and to their great disappointment, they accepted the deal nonetheless. That right there is the COMPROMISE you spoke of. What did the Arabs do? They rejected the idea of having a separate Jewish state and insisted on having just 1 country where Arabs will be the majority. That right there is NOT COMPROMISE. In this war, Israel has compromised by agreeing to release Palestinian prisoners, many of whom were charged with Murder and other crimes, including Hamas members. One of the youths who took part in the famous Ramallah lynching of 2000 was also released by Israel. This is a huge COMPROMISE as Israel is putting itself at risk by releasing these criminals to society, who can attack Israel in the future. On the other hand, one would expect Hamas, whose people are dying to also compromise by releasing all the hostages to stop these frequent Israeli attacks and the complete takeover of Gaza City, but no, Hamas and the Arabs never compromise, and unfortunately, no one is forcing them to, as everyone is focused on Israel.

This is utterly fraudulent hogwash. To attempt to claim that since Arabs had already got Jordan, then that should have been that is fraud. The land at issue, Palestine, at the time concerned has already been disclosed as being predominatly Muslim. Thus any division of that land concerned should have been proportional to the existing population. However as it turned out mass migrations to and from the territory occurred under the pressure of international powers, and no one would suggest that given what occured in 1947-48 (I have already highlighted the drastic change of population above - which was nothing short of ethnic replacement) - no one would suggest that the local population and their ethnic Arab allies were not entitled to resist this scenario.

Whilst Israel turned out to be the stronger military power with Western backing, the fair truth remains that those lands left to the Arabs today, as small as they are, (Gaza and the West Bank) should be accorded the right of sovereignty and self determination - just the same as the Jewish State of Israel enjoys. And most countries of the world today recognise them as such, and it frankly is only being resisted by Israel backed by the USA today. Indeed I just heard in the news today that the US has revoked the visas of the entire Palestinian delegation to the next UN General Assembly meeting. They dont have a right to do that, but that just shows you how far they would go to suppress the Palestinian voice. Their duty as the host country of the UN does not extend to unilaterally banning states from attending meetings of that multilateral organization. The last time this happened the UN relocated the meeting to Geneva. One hopes they will have the balls to do that this time around.

In this matter, the abominable attitude of Israel and supporters of Israel to international Law cannot be excused. Israel is the ONLY country in the world which routinely disregards International Law with the support of the USA. If other countries did that, they would be called rogue nations. Israel goes about routinely bombing its neighbours such as Iran, Lebanon and Syria, including attacking embassies and the premises of international organizations like the United Nations and its sub-bodies - ALL they time. No other nation operates with such a complete disregard of international law but all that supporters of Israel like you can say is simply, to hell with the UN, to hell with international law (as you alluded in your subsequent post). Of course to hell with everyone else and all treaties and laws because Israel is a supreme master race chosen by God and subject to no laws whatsoever, not even laws of decency.

No wonder it is meaningless to people like you that Benjamin Netanyahu has been indicted of war crimes by the International Criminal Court and as such cannot currently travel to most countries in the world. While you will claim that the entire UN and ICC are "antisemitic" it is noteworthy that even two former Israeli Prime-Ministers, Ehud Olmert and Ehud Barack have condemned the so caled war as involving war crimes and being a war of deception. Various international expert bodies have also conclusively called it a genocide.

I will find some time to address the ethnic supremacist worship of Israel in your second post.

cc:

Kukutente23
Tctrills
Mikeapollo
IdaytesJ29

@ Unbiased1,

A friend of mine has been reading our exchanges and sent me this response for you by Whatspp. He has asked me to share here -

----------------------------

For the purpose of posterity it is important that we deal with facts.

Also, to be objective so let’s not voice sentiments like “in all cases, the Jews are right.
Understand that there is a distinction between “the Jews” and the Zionist state of Israel in spite of the indoctrinations by the latter.

Furthermore, to say any one party is “always right” is unrealistic and therefore not objective to the discourse.
It will only serve to betray a blind bias, which again is not objective!

In any case let’s move on

Fact number 1;

All of humanity are equal! It is racist to refer to Palestinians as savages.
You are a black man, and just because a white racist thinks you’re inferior to him doesn’t make it true. So I repeat, all of humanity are equal.


Fact number 2;

Since the subject matter is the current genocide in Gaza herein is a list of independent human rights and legal bodies that deem it so, based on their on the ground observations and analysis.

B’T selem; An Israeli human rights organisation who’s current executive director is a former IDF soldier

Amnesty international

Doctors Without Borders

ECCHR

Fact no 3;

Israel are committing several human rights violations and have banned all international journalists from reporting on the ground.

UNRWA exists to provide support for Palestinians whom are refugees in their own country, on their own land which in itself speaks to their occupation and oppression.

The strip is referred to as an open air prison because there has been a land, air and sea blockade on it for 18 years which limits the flow of essential goods and medical supplies!

Israel broke a cease fire and banned UNRWA from providing food aid! They confiscate baby formula from doctors coming in, and you call this one sided control over everything a war!

How is that objective?

Hamas has become the caricature villain that they blame for their massacres of innocents. But, they dehumanised and have been massacring Palestinians since long before Hamas. Those are the facts.

October 7th pales in comparison to the sinister cruelties that the state of Israel have subjected the Palestinians to historically.

The main reason why all the good people of the world know about Israel’s atrocities apart from the sick videos that IDF soldiers have themselves posted on tik tok, is due to indigenous journalists risking their lives to document their peoples plight!

And they have paid that ultimate price with the spate of assassinations of journalists in this conflict!

Fact no 4
A history lesson
Prior to 1948 Israel was not a state or a country, it was a people. The Semite people whom follow Judaism

Antisemitism, real antisemitism began in Europe!
Europeans, not Arabs were prejudiced towards Jews, (and Arabs by the way, except there were more migrant Jews in Europe) from the late 19th to early 20th century.

Another fact, Palestinians are Semites, so for antisemitism to only refer to Jews is a modern construct of exclusivity of victimhood .

In spite of the Arab Muslim majority, the Christians and Jews of Palestine had lived in relative peaceful coexistence.
Why? Because Islamic laws require that non-Muslim minorities be protected, the term for them was Dhimmi (protected person)

It is the gradual implementation of the Zionist ideology in the late 19th and early 20th century that gave rise to the instability in the region.

Also, you mentioned the intifadas.
for the record the provocateurs for both intifadas was Israel.
Your reference to the one gate system to the dome of the rock as some sort of unfair system totally ignores the fact that on the other hand it is virtually impossible for Palestinians of the West Bank and Gaza to visit the Kotel (western wall) as they require permits which are never granted.
So you tell me which is better, one gate or no gate?

Fact no 5
At the core of this matter is the natural resistance to imperialism and colonialism.

Hence when 1948 came around the war of resistance to the UN proposed approved Zionist lobby for the partition of Palestine with 56% to Israel and 44% to Palestine

The victors in a war of unjust land appropriation are not the righteous.
Just as slavery was resisted in Africa the fact that the rape and plunder of Africa by Europe succeeded does not make it right!

You are right to an extent that if they wanted to obliterate Gazans with their nuclear power, they could. But they’ve chosen an even more cruel, slow death and extermination approach .
They want to continue to terrorise them, to psychologically wear them down so that they leave or die of hunger.
You talk about moving civilians from place to place like it’s a bit of fun. That is terrorism!

It’s sad that you do not understand that Israel is a proxy in the Middle East for the West’s continued imperialism of the world.

Is it imperialism that you support, or is it the misguided interpretation of scripture that you stand on!

If it is religion, do be reminded that for all religions, the key to salvation is goodness, not the selfish, self-centred, narcissistic, brutal pursuit of land and wealth in this finite world.

And if it the former, why?

---------------------

CC:

Kukutente23
Tctrills
Mikeapollo
IdaytesJ29

DeepSight:
@ Unbiased1,

A friend of mine has been reading our exchanges and sent me this response for you by Whatspp. He has asked me to share here -

----------------------------

For the purpose of posterity it is important that we deal with facts.

Also, to be objective so let’s not voice sentiments like “in all cases, the Jews are right.
Understand that there is a distinction between “the Jews” and the Zionist state of Israel in spite of the indoctrinations by the latter.

Furthermore, to say any one party is “always right” is unrealistic and therefore not objective to the discourse.
It will only serve to betray a blind bias, which again is not objective!

In any case let’s move on

Fact number 1;

All of humanity are equal! It is racist to refer to Palestinians as savages.
You are a black man, and just because a white racist thinks you’re inferior to him doesn’t make it true. So I repeat, all of humanity are equal.


Fact number 2;

Since the subject matter is the current genocide in Gaza herein is a list of independent human rights and legal bodies that deem it so, based on their on the ground observations and analysis.

B’T selem; An Israeli human rights organisation who’s current executive director is a former IDF soldier

Amnesty international

Doctors Without Borders

ECCHR

Fact no 3;

Israel are committing several human rights violations and have banned all international journalists from reporting on the ground.

UNRWA exists to provide support for Palestinians whom are refugees in their own country, on their own land which in itself speaks to their occupation and oppression.

The strip is referred to as an open air prison because there has been a land, air and sea blockade on it for 18 years which limits the flow of essential goods and medical supplies!

Israel broke a cease fire and banned UNRWA from providing food aid! They confiscate baby formula from doctors coming in, and you call this one sided control over everything a war!

How is that objective?

Hamas has become the caricature villain that they blame for their massacres of innocents. But, they dehumanised and have been massacring Palestinians since long before Hamas. Those are the facts.

October 7th pales in comparison to the sinister cruelties that the state of Israel have subjected the Palestinians to historically.

The main reason why all the good people of the world know about Israel’s atrocities apart from the sick videos that IDF soldiers have themselves posted on tik tok, is due to indigenous journalists risking their lives to document their peoples plight!

And they have paid that ultimate price with the spate of assassinations of journalists in this conflict!

Fact no 4
A history lesson
Prior to 1948 Israel was not a state or a country, it was a people. The Semite people whom follow Judaism

Antisemitism, real antisemitism began in Europe!
Europeans, not Arabs were prejudiced towards Jews, (and Arabs by the way, except there were more migrant Jews in Europe) from the late 19th to early 20th century.

Another fact, Palestinians are Semites, so for antisemitism to only refer to Jews is a modern construct of exclusivity of victimhood .

In spite of the Arab Muslim majority, the Christians and Jews of Palestine had lived in relative peaceful coexistence.
Why? Because Islamic laws require that non-Muslim minorities be protected, the term for them was Dhimmi (protected person)

It is the gradual implementation of the Zionist ideology in the late 19th and early 20th century that gave rise to the instability in the region.

Also, you mentioned the intifadas.
for the record the provocateurs for both intifadas was Israel.
Your reference to the one gate system to the dome of the rock as some sort of unfair system totally ignores the fact that on the other hand it is virtually impossible for Palestinians of the West Bank and Gaza to visit the Kotel (western wall) as they require permits which are never granted.
So you tell me which is better, one gate or no gate?

Fact no 5
At the core of this matter is the natural resistance to imperialism and colonialism.

Hence when 1948 came around the war of resistance to the UN proposed approved Zionist lobby for the partition of Palestine with 56% to Israel and 44% to Palestine

The victors in a war of unjust land appropriation are not the righteous.
Just as slavery was resisted in Africa the fact that the rape and plunder of Africa by Europe succeeded does not make it right!

You are right to an extent that if they wanted to obliterate Gazans with their nuclear power, they could. But they’ve chosen an even more cruel, slow death and extermination approach .
They want to continue to terrorise them, to psychologically wear them down so that they leave or die of hunger.
You talk about moving civilians from place to place like it’s a bit of fun. That is terrorism!

It’s sad that you do not understand that Israel is a proxy in the Middle East for the West’s continued imperialism of the world.

Is it imperialism that you support, or is it the misguided interpretation of scripture that you stand on!

If it is religion, do be reminded that for all religions, the key to salvation is goodness, not the selfish, self-centred, narcissistic, brutal pursuit of land and wealth in this finite world.

And if it the former, why?

---------------------

CC:

Kukutente23
Tctrills
Mikeapollo
IdaytesJ29

Tell your friend to beware of half-baked knowledge.
It is not racist to call a people savage if they delight in terror. Polls show that most of them support the October 7th attack. They teach their kids to hate and murder Jews. Every single time a Jew goes unarmed into any West Bank community, He ends up dead. What more can they do before your dear friend agrees that they meet the definition of savages?

Fact number 2
I have learnt from the Covid times that no organization is truly independent, and it would be a grave mistake not to question your so-called independent human rights and legal bodies. So, since you represent them, what is their evidence of genocide? Do your international sources tell you of Israel's humanitarian efforts in Gaza, or that Israel always informs the people of Gaza where to move before an attack? It will be counterproductive to warn the civilians of your plans if you are looking to kill them. Your so-called independent human rights and legal bodies have fraudulently changed the meaning of genocide when it comes to Israel. Funny thing, none of them declared a genocide in the recently ended Ethiopian war.

Fact no 3
UNRWA is nothing but a terrorist organization. Palestinian textbooks issued by UNRWA encourage Palestinian children to sacrifice their blood to liberate Jerusalem and incite against Jews and Israelis.
[url]https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/E-9-2021-003199_EN.html
[/url]

Fact no 4
Before 1948, antisemitism was not limited to Europeans. Mohamed, the Muslim leader, was a top killer of Jews. Both the Arabs and Ottomans showed great antisemitism. The WW2 leader of the Palestinians was in the Hitler camp advocating the gas chamber treatment for all Jews. Educate yourself on the 1834 – Hebron & Safed Massacres (Peasants’ Revolt against Muhammad Ali of Egypt), 1838 – Druze Uprising (Galilee), 1847 – Jerusalem Riots, 1886 – Petah Tikva Attacks, 1891 – Jerusalem Anti-Jewish Demonstrations, 1892–1893 – Early Riots Against Jewish Colonies, Nebi Musa/Jerusalem riots (Apr 4–7, 1920), Jaffa riots (May 1–7, 1921), 1929 “Western Wall”/Palestine riots (Aug 1929),
Hebron massacre (Aug 24, 1929), Safed pogrom (Aug 29, 1929), Black Hand (Izz ad-Din al-Qassam) attacks (1931–1935), Arab Revolt (1936–1939), Tiberias massacre (Oct 2, 1938), Haifa Oil Refinery massacre (Dec 30, 1947), Hadassah medical convoy massacre (Apr 13, 1948)

With all these, do you still believe that these are not Savages?
If your argument here is that the word Semites can't be used exclusively by the Jews, you are correct, but we can't allow the play of words to deflect our discussion. It is not like anyone is confused when the term is used. Also, the meaning of words changes with time. The word Palestinian meant something different 80 years ago.

Fact no 5
This is just rubbish. Your imperialism and colonialism argument is dead on arrival. The Palestinians were given multiple opportunities to build their own nation and rule over themselves all were refused. The first was in 1948, and the last I remember was in 2020 under Trump. (2020 Trump Israel–Palestine plan) The Palestinians just walked away, no negotiation, nothing. They are not ready for peace. This has nothing to do with imperialism if your so-called colonizers are ready and prepared to make peace. Remember, Israel gave back Gaza, and what did they get in return?

Please tell your WhatsApp friend to get more education on the subject. Israel has conducted their war in the most responsible way possible. And they have continued to get better at not killing civilians as the war progressed.
The Nature preprint places the death toll in Gaza at around 84,000. About 40,000 died in the first 6 months of the war. This tells you that Israel is taking great action and getting much better at not killing civilians
Finally, how many in Gaza are truly civilians?

DeepSight:
@ Unbiased1,

A friend of mine has been reading our exchanges and sent me this response for you by Whatspp. He has asked me to share here -

----------------------------

For the purpose of posterity it is important that we deal with facts.

Also, to be objective so let’s not voice sentiments like “in all cases, the Jews are right.
Understand that there is a distinction between “the Jews” and the Zionist state of Israel in spite of the indoctrinations by the latter.

Furthermore, to say any one party is “always right” is unrealistic and therefore not objective to the discourse.
It will only serve to betray a blind bias, which again is not objective!

In any case let’s move on

Fact number 1;

All of humanity are equal! It is racist to refer to Palestinians as savages.
You are a black man, and just because a white racist thinks you’re inferior to him doesn’t make it true. So I repeat, all of humanity are equal.


Fact number 2;

Since the subject matter is the current genocide in Gaza herein is a list of independent human rights and legal bodies that deem it so, based on their on the ground observations and analysis.

B’T selem; An Israeli human rights organisation who’s current executive director is a former IDF soldier

Amnesty international

Doctors Without Borders

ECCHR

Fact no 3;

Israel are committing several human rights violations and have banned all international journalists from reporting on the ground.

UNRWA exists to provide support for Palestinians whom are refugees in their own country, on their own land which in itself speaks to their occupation and oppression.

The strip is referred to as an open air prison because there has been a land, air and sea blockade on it for 18 years which limits the flow of essential goods and medical supplies!

Israel broke a cease fire and banned UNRWA from providing food aid! They confiscate baby formula from doctors coming in, and you call this one sided control over everything a war!

How is that objective?

Hamas has become the caricature villain that they blame for their massacres of innocents. But, they dehumanised and have been massacring Palestinians since long before Hamas. Those are the facts.

October 7th pales in comparison to the sinister cruelties that the state of Israel have subjected the Palestinians to historically.

The main reason why all the good people of the world know about Israel’s atrocities apart from the sick videos that IDF soldiers have themselves posted on tik tok, is due to indigenous journalists risking their lives to document their peoples plight!

And they have paid that ultimate price with the spate of assassinations of journalists in this conflict!

Fact no 4
A history lesson
Prior to 1948 Israel was not a state or a country, it was a people. The Semite people whom follow Judaism

Antisemitism, real antisemitism began in Europe!
Europeans, not Arabs were prejudiced towards Jews, (and Arabs by the way, except there were more migrant Jews in Europe) from the late 19th to early 20th century.

Another fact, Palestinians are Semites, so for antisemitism to only refer to Jews is a modern construct of exclusivity of victimhood .

In spite of the Arab Muslim majority, the Christians and Jews of Palestine had lived in relative peaceful coexistence.
Why? Because Islamic laws require that non-Muslim minorities be protected, the term for them was Dhimmi (protected person)

It is the gradual implementation of the Zionist ideology in the late 19th and early 20th century that gave rise to the instability in the region.

Also, you mentioned the intifadas.
for the record the provocateurs for both intifadas was Israel.
Your reference to the one gate system to the dome of the rock as some sort of unfair system totally ignores the fact that on the other hand it is virtually impossible for Palestinians of the West Bank and Gaza to visit the Kotel (western wall) as they require permits which are never granted.
So you tell me which is better, one gate or no gate?

Fact no 5
At the core of this matter is the natural resistance to imperialism and colonialism.

Hence when 1948 came around the war of resistance to the UN proposed approved Zionist lobby for the partition of Palestine with 56% to Israel and 44% to Palestine

The victors in a war of unjust land appropriation are not the righteous.
Just as slavery was resisted in Africa the fact that the rape and plunder of Africa by Europe succeeded does not make it right!

You are right to an extent that if they wanted to obliterate Gazans with their nuclear power, they could. But they’ve chosen an even more cruel, slow death and extermination approach .
They want to continue to terrorise them, to psychologically wear them down so that they leave or die of hunger.
You talk about moving civilians from place to place like it’s a bit of fun. That is terrorism!

It’s sad that you do not understand that Israel is a proxy in the Middle East for the West’s continued imperialism of the world.

Is it imperialism that you support, or is it the misguided interpretation of scripture that you stand on!

If it is religion, do be reminded that for all religions, the key to salvation is goodness, not the selfish, self-centred, narcissistic, brutal pursuit of land and wealth in this finite world.

And if it the former, why?

---------------------

CC:

Kukutente23
Tctrills
Mikeapollo
IdaytesJ29

My first response was to your WhatsApp friend; now my response to you just on one issue, the first fact. The salvage name-calling.
I am surprised that you felt no pang of hypocrisy as you relayed your friend's message.
On Nairaland, I have witnessed you hurl insults, mockery, and ridicule at Christians, their beliefs, their God, and His Christ, but when it comes to the Palestinians, you develop a conscience; that is a bridge too far for you.
Let me ask you, what do you think would happen to you if you went to any Palestinian West Bank settlement as a Jew? You will be deleted in 5 minutes unless they choose to torture you first. It will be done in the open, to the cheering of the people, including their women and children.
But they are not Savages.
What do you think they did when the King and the people of Jordan welcomed them with open arms? But they are not Savages.
What do you think they did to Lebanon after the Lebanese welcomed them with open arms? But they are not savages.
If they were only this animalistic to their so-called white imperial colonizers, we could understand. But the tradition of evil and violence follows them everywhere they go. But dem no be savages.

Drop the hypocrisy, bro.

tctrills:
Tell your friend to beware of half-baked knowledge.
It is not racist to call a people savage if they delight in terror. Polls show that most of them support the October 7th attack. They teach their kids to hate and murder Jews. Every single time a Jew goes unarmed into any West Bank community, He ends up dead. What more can they do before your dear friend agrees that they meet the definition of savages?

Fact number 2
I have learnt from the Covid times that no organization is truly independent, and it would be a grave mistake not to question your so-called independent human rights and legal bodies. So, since you represent them, what is their evidence of genocide? Do your international sources tell you of Israel's humanitarian efforts in Gaza, or that Israel always informs the people of Gaza where to move before an attack? It will be counterproductive to warn the civilians of your plans if you are looking to kill them. Your so-called independent human rights and legal bodies have fraudulently changed the meaning of genocide when it comes to Israel. Funny thing, none of them declared a genocide in the recently ended Ethiopian war.

Fact no 3
UNRWA is nothing but a terrorist organization. Palestinian textbooks issued by UNRWA encourage Palestinian children to sacrifice their blood to liberate Jerusalem and incite against Jews and Israelis.
[url]https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/E-9-2021-003199_EN.html
[/url]

Fact no 4
Before 1948, antisemitism was not limited to Europeans. Mohamed, the Muslim leader, was a top killer of Jews. Both the Arabs and Ottomans showed great antisemitism. The WW2 leader of the Palestinians was in the Hitler camp advocating the gas chamber treatment for all Jews. Educate yourself on the 1834 – Hebron & Safed Massacres (Peasants’ Revolt against Muhammad Ali of Egypt), 1838 – Druze Uprising (Galilee), 1847 – Jerusalem Riots, 1886 – Petah Tikva Attacks, 1891 – Jerusalem Anti-Jewish Demonstrations, 1892–1893 – Early Riots Against Jewish Colonies, Nebi Musa/Jerusalem riots (Apr 4–7, 1920), Jaffa riots (May 1–7, 1921), 1929 “Western Wall”/Palestine riots (Aug 1929),
Hebron massacre (Aug 24, 1929), Safed pogrom (Aug 29, 1929), Black Hand (Izz ad-Din al-Qassam) attacks (1931–1935), Arab Revolt (1936–1939), Tiberias massacre (Oct 2, 1938), Haifa Oil Refinery massacre (Dec 30, 1947), Hadassah medical convoy massacre (Apr 13, 1948)

With all these, do you still believe that these are not Savages?
If your argument here is that the word Semites can't be used exclusively by the Jews, you are correct, but we can't allow the play of words to deflect our discussion. It is not like anyone is confused when the term is used. Also, the meaning of words changes with time. The word Palestinian meant something different 80 years ago.

Fact no 5
This is just rubbish. Your imperialism and colonialism argument is dead on arrival. The Palestinians were given multiple opportunities to build their own nation and rule over themselves all were refused. The first was in 1948, and the last I remember was in 2020 under Trump. (2020 Trump Israel–Palestine plan) The Palestinians just walked away, no negotiation, nothing. They are not ready for peace. This has nothing to do with imperialism if your so-called colonizers are ready and prepared to make peace. Remember, Israel gave back Gaza, and what did they get in return?

Please tell your WhatsApp friend to get more education on the subject. Israel has conducted their war in the most responsible way possible. And they have continued to get better at not killing civilians as the war progressed.
The Nature preprint places the death toll in Gaza at around 84,000. About 40,000 died in the first 6 months of the war. This tells you that Israel is taking great action and getting much better at not killing civilians
Finally, how many in Gaza are truly civilians?

Engaging you is just pure waste of time and intellect. Enjoy your mentality of doom.

tctrills:
My first response was to your WhatsApp friend; now my response to you just on one issue, the first fact. The salvage name-calling.
I am surprised that you felt no pang of hypocrisy as you relayed your friend's message.
On Nairaland, I have witnessed you hurl insults, mockery, and ridicule at Christians, their beliefs, their God, and His Christ, but when it comes to the Palestinians, you develop a conscience; that is a bridge too far for you.
Let me ask you, what do you think would happen to you if you went to any Palestinian West Bank settlement as a Jew? You will be deleted in 5 minutes unless they choose to torture you first. It will be done in the open, to the cheering of the people, including their women and children.
But they are not Savages.
What do you think they did when the King and the people of Jordan welcomed them with open arms? But they are not Savages.
What do you think they did to Lebanon after the Lebanese welcomed them with open arms? But they are not savages.
If they were only this animalistic to their so-called white imperial colonizers, we could understand. But the tradition of evil and violence follows them everywhere they go. But dem no be savages.

Drop the hypocrisy, bro.

The Jews are 90 per cent the same as White Imperialist Masters being mostly actually European in every sense and where they are not, they are representatives of Western imperialism still.

It is remarkable that black men who white racists call baboons and savages can join white men to call other people savages. That is the actual irony you should look at.

I am no hypocrite. My disdain for religion is well known and I criticize and blast Christianity as much as I do Islam. I don't see the hypocrisy in that.

DeepSight:
The Jews are 90 per cent the same as White Imperialist Masters being mostly actually European in every sense and where they are not, they are representatives of Western imperialism still.

It is remarkable that black men who white racists call baboons and savages can join white men to call other people savages. That is the actual irony you should look at.

I am no hypocrite. My disdain for religion is well known and I criticize and blast Christianity as much as I do Islam. I don't see the hypocrisy in that.

You can call Jews White Imperialists, but we can't call Palestinians salvages. You can call Christians everything in the book, but we are guilty when we tell you what your friends are. I have never been called a baboon by a white, and I live among them. I have witnessed white men being banned for life from a stadium for using racist words against blacks. One of the fastest ways to destroy yourself in Europe and America is to use a racist word on a black person in public. They are scared to call you a Nigga even in their country.
But till tomorrow, do you know what the arabs, including all Palestinians, call you? "Abd" (عبد) Slave.
Oga, you make no point here

Idaytesj29:
Engaging you is just pure waste of time and intellect. Enjoy your mentality of doom.

You are all the same; you all end up frustrated, and you start throwing insults and claiming a foolish superiority when you come face-to-face with the truth. You are only a clone; there are thousands like you on Nairaland. So I am not offended, I understand.

tctrills:
You can call Jews White Imperialists, but we can't call Palestinians salvages. You can call Christians everything in the book, but we are guilty when we tell you what your friends are. I have never been called a baboon by a white, and I live among them. I have witnessed white men being banned for life from a stadium for using racist words against blacks. One of the fastest ways to destroy yourself in Europe and America is to use a racist word on a black person in public. They are scared to call you a Nigga even in their country.
But till tomorrow, do you know what the arabs, including all Palestinians, call you? "Abd" (عبد) Slave.
Oga, you make no point here

Racism is of course generally formally frowned at, but are you by the above suggesting that there isnt still much racism in the West? If you live in the Western world there is no way you can deny not just its existence but its mass effects in society and particularly in economic realities. Or are you one of those people who worship white people and believe in their innnate superiority? Are you an Uncle Tom?