₦airaland Forum

Truthseeker10:
What is the original sin?

You don’t know Original Sin?

Penguin2:
Don’t jumble things together so you don’t confuse yourself?

Where did I say Mary’s womb purified Jesus?

The line of argument has been that Mary was made holy so as not to corrupt the humanity of Christ which would have automatically vitiated his divinity.

Don’t mix things up.

Is her womb not her body??.....ur claim that she was made holy: so what was made holy??

If there must be a separate need to make Mary holy so as not to corrupt The Lord Jesus, then Joseph would have been made holy for both sperm and egg to make Jesus....

Which makes Ur line of argument is total fallacy...

Just as tagging Mary the mother of all believers is a truckload of fallacy ...

and Mary Being prayed to an even greater fallacy

Penguin2:
You don’t know Original Sin?

that is why I'm asking. What was the original sin?

Penguin2:
So Mary was not human and the process of development of the child does not involve anything from the woman/mother?

How do you say Mary is not human even after you know she was born by sex, sperm and egg as I said?

Putting that aside, your issue is unholy Mary birthing a Holy Jesus, and this is where I remind you that it is in and with God that water comes out from Rock and that wood sinks and a brass hammer head floats and the whole of Egypt put in all darkness whereas Goshen had light.

So, also it is not out of place for unholy Mary to birth Holy Jesus most especially as the unholiness process of sex, sperm and egg was bypassed.

So, no issue here. God bypassed the process of unholiness and this therefore maintained Jesus's Natural Holiness while keeping Mary in her natural corrupted man'ness as she was born of sex, sperm and egg. Therefore both are different.

Penguin2:
God is the eternal head of the church.

But Jesus left the church on earth in Peter’s leadership.


But if you say it’s not Peter then who?

So you're saying that Peter is not the head but the leader of the church?

Penguin2:
Take it slowly; one step at a time.

1) Jesus Christ is God. Yes?

2) Jesus Christ was also fully hu(man) while on earth. Because only one of us could have saved all of us from the condemnation of Original Sin. Yes?

Now, you believe in the powers of God to breathe Jesus into Mary without the sperm of Joseph but you don’t believe in the power of the same God to purify the abode of Christ for 9 months?

Nlfpmod

The word purify means that she was filthy hence unholy

Truthseeker10:
Can you give an example of someone praying to Mary and where the bible teaches that Apostles who have died can intercede for us in prayer.

Praying through Mary not to Mary as I understand it.

Did the apostles pray to Jesus when he was Alive?

chimex38:
Praying through Mary not to Mary as I understand it.
Did the apostles pray to Jesus when he was Alive?

The Bible says it only through Jesus name that we must pray to our God {John 14:14} that's why no Christian ask anything in another name than in the name of Jesus {Luke 10:17; Act 3:6} because Jesus is the Amen! Revelations 3:14

So it's wrong praying to the father {Matthew 6:9} in any other name apart from Jesus! John 14:6

MaxInDHouse:
The Bible says it only through Jesus name that we must pray to our God {John 14:14} that's why no Christian ask anything in another name than in the name of Jesus {Luke 10:17; Act 3:6} because Jesus is the Amen! Revelations 3:14

So it's wrong praying to the father {Matthew 6:9} in any other name apart from Jesus! John 14:6

OK.
To and through will always remain a problem.
I bolded it for this reason.


Luke 2:48-49-
(Jesus at the temple @12)
John 2: 3-5(wine to water)
Matt 12:47-49
(mother and brothers)
These verses shows Jesus hard stance on his mission but it's believed he gave in to his mother's requests despite having a contrary opinion St that point in time.

These depics how one can be unworthy to even request sth from God and give up or backslide further(even though he/she shouldn't because God is a merciful God; but this is reality of life.)

Mary could intercede for you and help take your request and forgiving request to the Almighty while you work towards building a closer relationship with God so you are worthy enough to talk to him directly.
It's a win_win to me.
It's a matter of believe.

chimex38:
OK.
To and through will always remain a problem.
I bolded it for this reason.
Luke 2:48-49-
(Jesus at the temple @12)
John 2: 3-5(wine to water)
Matt 12:47-49
(mother and brothers)
These verses shows Jesus hard stance on his mission but it's believed he gave in to his mother's requests despite having a contrary opinion St that point in time.
These depics how one can be unworthy to even request sth from God and give up or backslide further(even though he/she shouldn't because God is a merciful God; but this is reality of life.)
Mary could intercede for you and help take your request and forgiving request to the Almighty while you work towards building a closer relationship with God so you are worthy enough to talk to him directly.
It's a win_win to me.
It's a matter of believe.

Moses also intercede for the Israelites! Exodus 32:10-14

So should people also pray through the name of Moses?

Well whatever you choose to do but God said we should listen to Jesus who said it's only through him we should pray!🙂

chimex38:
Praying through Mary not to Mary as I understand it.

This proves you are Lying

Pray More Novenas
https://www.praymorenovenas.com
Novena to the Immaculate Heart of Mary
The novena is a prayer to Mary, the model of holiness.

AI Overview
+9
A novena prayer to Mary is a devotion praying for a specific intention over nine days

chimex38:
Did the apostles pray to Jesus when he was Alive?

This is off point. However Mark 16:17 answers that they did as we later see them casting out demons in The Name of Jesus.

But as I said, this is off point and your attempt to be diversionary just proves that you already know that you people can never defend this sin.

chimex38:
Praying through Mary not to Mary as I understand it.

Did the apostles pray to Jesus when he was Alive?

So does the Bible tell us to pray through Mary or pray through Jesus?

I have replied here, that I was once doubtful, but the content of their prayers suggest otherwise. I respect it and don't condemn it especially as it serves as the centre of a female model young girls can model.
the link you quoted still depicts Jesus Christ as the centre of Faith.

chimex38:
.........
.......
I understand the tendency to "worship". The wordings of their prayers suggest otherwise; an intersession
..........
.......

........
...........

Dtruthspeaker:
This proves you are Lying

Pray More Novenas
https://www.praymorenovenas.com
Novena to the Immaculate Heart of Mary
The novena is a prayer to Mary, the model of holiness.

AI Overview
+9
A novena prayer to Mary is a devotion praying for a specific intention over nine days

On the context of the semantics "To" and "Through"
It's like an Uncle(Religiousbody) who knows his nephew(christian member) gets all his needs and resources from his father(God). The nephew's mother(Mary) isn't capable on her own and the uncle knows it. Yet the uncle sends the nephew to go "to" his mother so she can persuade the father(God) on her son's behalf.
.......go to his mother in this sense is akin to "Novena to his mother.
The nephew will still have to pass through his mother to get to his father

This is off point. However Mark 16:17 answers that they did as we later see them casting out demons in The Name of Jesus.

But as I said, this is off point and your attempt to be diversionary just proves that you already know that you people can never defend this sin.

The verse was after his death not during.
Loll.. You are certainly not used to being questioned, you are used to asking the questions to drive your premise.

I understand where you're coming from. Yes, to be fair it looks off point.
But my point is the NT didn't record in detail so many geneologies/generations after Christ died..
So if praying in Jesus name while he was alive is "off point" (as you said ) until he died, and ascended,
So the point of seeking in the Bible where praying through Mary is stated is also "off point"() as there were people directly linked to Christ who were very much alive. until many generations after where direct-link to Jesus diminishes.

MaxInDHouse:
Moses also intercede for the Israelites! Exodus 32:10-14

So should people also pray through the name of Moses?

Well whatever you choose to do but God said we should listen to Jesus who said it's only through him we should pray!🙂

It's probably because we no longer practice the old law as it is.
So a typical Christian believe won't relate with "Moses".
Otherwise asking Moses to intercede won't also be a bad idea if one believes in Moses ways with supporting verses.
I see it as just being a longer-chain that still leads to Jesus.

chimex38:
It's probably because we no longer practice the old law as it is.
So a typical Christian believe won't relate with "Moses".
Otherwise asking Moses to intercede won't also be a bad idea if one believes in Moses ways with supporting verses.
I see it as just being a longer-chain that still leads to Jesus.

Guy when it comes to prayer both in the Old and New Testament there is only one name that's given to all believers: JESUS!

MaxInDHouse:
Guy when it comes to prayer both in the Old and New Testament there is only one name that's given to all believers: JESUS!

True.
At least the initial context of the discuss was to say in my opinion and understanding that they don't seem to be worshipping Mary as a wide misconception.
Also Females do need a gender role Model.

In all we all have our modes of worship that leads to Jesus.

chimex38:
I have replied here, that I was once doubtful, but the content of their prayers suggest otherwise. I respect it and don't condemn it especially as it serves as the centre of a female model young girls can model the link you quoted still depicts Jesus Christ as the centre of Faith.

There are many models for girls to follow eg Ruth, Esther, the woman in Proverbs 31 and none of them have been worshipped.

Secondly, the contents are already clear and to deceive people like you they bent it. It is no different from a hook up provider singing Christian music, then you would say she is holy and righteous? Please, this is invalid.

chimex38:
On the context of the semantics "To" and [b"Through"[/b]
It's like an Uncle(Religiousbody) who knows his nephew(christian member) gets all his needs and resources from his father(God). The nephew's mother(Mary) isn't capable on her own and the uncle knows it. Yet the uncle sends the nephew to go "to" his mother so she can persuade the father(God) on her son's behalf.
.......go to his mother in this sense is akin to "Novena to his mother.
The nephew will still have to pass through his mother to get to his father

Do you not see that you are talking like a drunk?
Can uncle not go directly to his brother, the Father of the nephew?
Or can the son not go to his father as Jesus did and we all do as it is even better that we go to our fathers directly than to involve uncle? So where uncle won come from?

Not to talk of how you have changed it from "to" 2 "to go" that was not there

Please, this is a rubbish reply.

chimex38:
The verse was after his death not during.
Loll.. You are certainly not used to being questioned, you are used to asking the questions to drive your premise.

Of course It must be after His murder and death as we can all see that they still did not get it until after The Holy Spirit came ai cleared it up for them to understand.

And no, I am not adverse to answering questions but I always remember that the question always has a basis and the basis is itself based on who is supposed to be proving the claim aka burden of proof..

So once a person admits that their claim is wrong then they can ask me their own questions and I will answer as best as I can.

chimex38:
I understand where you're coming from. Yes, to be fair it looks off point.
But my point is the NT didn't record in detail so many geneologies/generations after Christ died..
So if praying in Jesus name while he was alive is "off point" () until he died, and ascended,
So the point of seeking in the Bible where praying through Mary is stated is also "off point"( ) as there were people directly linked to Christ who were very much alive. until many generations after where direct-link to Jesus diminishes.

Now you are trying to shift post to raise issues that were not raised. No one mentioned genealogy after Christ died nor that praying to Jesus was alive or dead was wrong.

But the issue is about praying to Mary or as you tried changing it, praying through Mary, is wrong. And you tried defending it but your defence does not stand

Truthseeker10:
So does the Bible tell us to pray through Mary or pray through Jesus?

Improper question-context.

Answer:
Pray through Jesus
Pray through Mary to intercede to Jesus
(I have listed verses in this thread that support her intercession ability through her and approval from Jesus).

In your own view and personal relationship, if we can pray to God directly, why do we need to pray through Jesus?

chimex38:
..In your own view and personal relationship, if we can pray to God directly, why do we need to pray through Jesus?

Have you forgotten that Jesus is our God? So we are still praying directly to God.

So you see, you guys are still in wrong.

chimex38:
It's probably because we no longer practice the old law as it is.
So a typical Christian believe won't relate with "Moses".
Otherwise asking Moses to intercede won't also be a bad idea if one believes in Moses ways with supporting verses.
I see it as just being a longer-chain that still leads to Jesus.

You are still practicing the supposed old law, eg your temple configurations and priests robes, is it not trying to imitate the Levite priests? Or does your church not teach and uphold the 10 commandments?.

No one has escaped being under what you call old law.

chimex38:
Improper question-context.

Answer:
Pray through Jesus
Pray through Mary to intercede to Jesus
(I have listed verses in this thread that support her intercession ability through her and approval from Jesus).

In your own view and personal relationship, if we can pray to God directly, why do we need to pray through Jesus?

Where does the Bible teach that we can pray through Mary to intercede to Jesus?

chimex38:
True.
At least the initial context of the discuss was to say in my opinion and understanding that they don't seem to be worshipping Mary as a wide misconception.
Also Females do need a gender role Model.
In all we all have our modes of worship that leads to Jesus.

If you feel females should have their own separate model that's your own cup of coffee {Revelations 22:18-19} but when talking about Christianity it's either you accept what the scriptures say or you leave the faith human ideologies are unacceptable in sacred service to God! Isaiah 55:8-9

Ruth Ester and Naomi has been answered here.
Point to contents that show worship and I will rebuke them as well. They call it honor and Jesus and God are always at the centre of such activities.

chimex38:
Was Particular on new Testament.

Mary's a role model for Girls, Ladies and women.
Ruth and Naomi as well.
..................
............
........
I don't have a problem if others bring out Esther, Naomi and Ruth as well as role models for girls. They are less talked about in Bible schools.
But Catholics talks about Mary a lot and it connects to young girls and women.
[quote author=Dtruthspeaker post=137353555]There are many models for girls to follow eg Ruth, Esther, the woman in Proverbs 31 and none of them have been worshipped.

You quoted an AI link, I opened it, told you what I saw as the centre of the message. Show me the content they bent?

As for the hookup provider, she is unholy and unrighteous.
But I don't see the correlation here. I cant say for other dead people catholics call saints.
But Mary was in the Bible and on the topic of discuss would you say Mary is unholy and unrighteous? not deserving an honor?
or that probably she didn't make heaven? Despite being called blessed amongst women by Elizabeth?

Dtruthspeaker:
Secondly, the contents are already clear and to deceive people like you they bent it. It is no different from a hook up provider singing Christian music, then you would say she is holy and righteous? Please, this is invalid.

Drunk? ee never reach like this
That is the ideal state but I am painting a practical life scenario.
Not all request from fathers children are bold enough to ask despite being the direct requirements.
Most past through their mother at times(weakness or severe unworthyness based on wrong the child has done) until they are bold or feel worthy enough to talk to their father directly(its our human nature)..
Such requests or prayers are sometimes granted.
It's just an expansion of my first post-an intersession.

might be "rubbish" to you as you are always bold and eager to meet your father no matter your state of worthiness and how furious you think he is with you and your father always responds swiftly to your demands.(afterall, he is a merciful God) Fine and good.

I have posted verses in this thread where despite Jesus reluctance and hard stance, through discernment and fact, it's assumed he yielded to Mary's demands.

But no one lens that fits all eyes.

Is the Heading: Novena to Mary not same as go to Mary in this analogy?
It's an analogy na? must it be explicitly the same?.
From afar the Heading sounds like Mary is the end.
Biut when you get closer, you see she is just a means to an end.
Well, it doesn't matter, it's English vocab, the God that they Worship understands the context of the contents of the Heading not the branded Heading itself. If it's a problem, help provide a better coincise Heading.

Do you not see that you are talking like a drunk?
Can uncle not go directly to his brother, the Father of the nephew?
Or can the son not go to his father as Jesus did and we all do as it is even better that we go to our fathers directly than to involve uncle? So where uncle won come from?

Not to talk of how you have changed it from "to" 2 "to go" that was not there

Please, this is a rubbish reply.

On a second look,
For that always asking question accusation part, I apologize for stressing you out. I don't know if you are one and the same, I mistook your moniker with one
"Truthseeker".

Dtruthspeaker:
And no, I am not adverse to answering questions but I always remember that the question always has a basis and the basis is itself based on who is supposed to be proving the claim aka burden of proof..

So once a person admits that their claim is wrong then they can ask me their own questions and I will answer as best as I can.

.........
..........

Just as you acknowledge emphatically with "of course" to my question.
so also is the answer to your question "of course"it couldn't have been possible in the Bible during the lifetime or generations of Mary/Apostles.
If it was to be included, it had to happen not years after but Generations after .

Of course It must be after His murder and death as we can all see that they still did not get it until after The Holy Spirit came ai cleared it up for them to understand.

Now you are trying to shift post to raise issues that were not raised. No one mentioned genealogy after Christ died nor that praying to Jesus was alive or dead was wrong.

But the issue is about praying to Mary or as you tried changing it, praying through Mary, is wrong. And you tried defending it but your defence does not stand.

Yes, correct. No one mentioned genealogy after Christ or generations after Jesus and his disciples
Why I brought it up was to show its correlation to the question that it couldn't have been stated in the NT because the NT was limited in timeline post-Christ.
Nevertheless Rev12 strongly points to Mary as the woman and thus why she is honored by them at least. Unless probably you have a different interpretation.

Going by human endeavors in the old testament.
Just for context:

After Abrahams time,
The Generations and genealogies of Isaac that followed refered to God as God of Abraham.
After death of Isaac,
the Generations and genealogies of Isaac that followed refered to God as God of Abraham and Isaac .,
The generations after Jacob always refers to God as God of Abraham, God of Isaac,God of Jacob.
After Jacob, the popular chants were God of David I suppose.
I suppose there were God of Hezekiahz God of Josiah, etc
God of Elijah, etc...

If the generations were longer in the NT, there could possibly have been God of Peter, God of John, God of Paul, etc..

The point is:
Humans relate to God closely with previous humans who were seen as close to God as possible and almost guaranteed to have made heaven as well.
They create a form of associated or phrase to that effect to connect themselves to the Supreme Being( God)
Supreme Being sent Jesus as an ideal model, humans who fall short still associate with holy ones who came close to this ideal model both physically, and spiritually with biblical proof. Mary was one of them alongside apostles.

MaxInDHouse:
If you feel females should have their own separate model that's your own cup of coffee {Revelations 22:18-19} but when talking about Christianity it's either you accept what the scriptures say or you leave the faith human ideologies are unacceptable in sacred service to God! Isaiah 55:8-9

But you accept them your family, friends and brethren bearing female names from the Bible, isn't that role model association? They should as well all be bearing male names.

You are probably a man, so I assume you may not fully understand putting yourself in womens shoes within life daily activities and challenges.

but in certain context of gender, I would prefer to tell a young teens and pre-teen girl to model their life like Mary who kept herself pure until Marriage
Mary who despite Jesus stance, Mary pleaded with, believed in and convinced Jesus to answer her requests like the widow in Like 18.
Also even when Mary got revelations of her death in (luke 2:35), she still stood steadfast and took care of Jesus and probably remained faithful to God until her death.
Jesus also did the same, knew about his death, and stood firm until his death.
But I will relate the Mary's story to a young girl more..
It doesn't relegate Jesus. She still knows that only Jesus can answer prayers.
Mary played a supporting role in Jesus life that relates very well with the supporting role women play in men's life and world in general.

That's the positive aspect I picked from Catholics on Mary..

You can call it ideologies by quoting OT and NT that suits your narrative but I gave you verses from the NT which you didn't dispute either. you have not outrightly pointed out to what they are adding or subtracting in this context.
So to each his own I believe.
I try to be open minded to what works and improves holiness and righteousness across religion.
If I can call a fellow brethren to pray for me(to Jesus/God)
Why can't one call on others to pray for me(to Jesus/God)?
especially one who connects strongly with Christ from birth till death?


Nevertheless,Rev 12 seem to mention reference to a woman akin to Mary. This also adds to why they elevate her in honor as well I think.
Unless you have a different interpretation.

Truthseeker10:
Where does the Bible teach that we can pray through Mary to intercede to Jesus?

I have given relevant passages in this thread to support Mary interceding in difficult circumstances with Jesus..

Dtruthspeaker:
You are still practicing the supposed old law, eg your temple configurations and priests robes, is it not trying to imitate the Levite priests? Or does your church not teach and uphold the 10 commandments?.

No one has escaped being under what you call old law.

Yes.. You are correct, we as Christians still practice the old law in a way. But If you go through our discuss, he made a rhetoric comment that necessitated the reply in context.

@bolded
However, my comment was also specific in context: "as it is".

chimex38:
It's probably because we no longer practice the old law as it is.

chimex38:
I have given relevant passages in this thread to support Mary interceding in difficult circumstances with Jesus..

You mean people prayed through Mary to intercede to Jesus in the bible?

Guy there is no excuse just bow to what is written in the scriptures or welcome all forms of religion since they all have excuses for whatever they believe!🙂

chimex38:
But you accept them your family, friends and brethren bearing female names from the Bible, isn't that role model association? They should as well all be bearing male names.

You are probably a man, so I assume you may not fully understand putting yourself in womens shoes within life daily activities and challenges.

but in certain context of gender, I would prefer to tell a young teens and pre-teen girl to model their life like Mary who kept herself pure until Marriage
Mary who despite Jesus stance, Mary pleaded with, believed in and convinced Jesus to answer her requests like the widow in Like 18.
Also even when Mary got revelations of her death in (luke 2:35), she still stood steadfast and took care of Jesus and probably remained faithful to God until her death.
Jesus also did the same, knew about his death, and stood firm until his death.
But I will relate the Mary's story to a young girl more..
It doesn't relegate Jesus. She still knows that only Jesus can answer prayers.
Mary played a supporting role in Jesus life that relates very well with the supporting role women play in men's life and world in general.

That's the positive aspect I picked from Catholics on Mary..

You can call it ideologies by quoting OT and NT that suits your narrative but I gave you verses from the NT which you didn't dispute either. you have not outrightly pointed out to what they are adding or subtracting in this context.
So to each his own I believe.
I try to be open minded to what works and improves holiness and righteousness across religion.
If I can call a fellow brethren to pray for me(to Jesus/God)
Why can't one call on others to pray for me(to Jesus/God)?
especially one who connects strongly with Christ from birth till death?


Nevertheless,Rev 12 seem to mention reference to a woman akin to Mary. This also adds to why they elevate her in honor as well I think.
Unless you have a different interpretation.

Truthseeker10:
You mean people prayed through Mary to intercede to Jesus in the bible?

what's prayer if not request.
I will borrow that aspect of her intercession ability of Mary as practiced by them as far as its in the Bible.
Especially where one feels God may refuse ones request based on one's misdeeds or low faith in the face of overwhelming challenges.

Like I wrote in my very first comment, they don't even force it on their members.
Its a matter of believe.

It's understandable if you don't.

chimex38:
what's prayer if not request.
I will borrow that aspect of her intercession ability of Mary as practiced by them as far as its in the Bible.
Especially where one feels God may refuse ones request based on one's misdeeds or low faith in the face of overwhelming challenges.

Like I wrote in my very first comment, they don't even force it on their members.
Its a matter of believe.

It's understandable if you don't.

So you mean that while Mary was alive, people requested things from Jesus through Mary? If yes, where is Mary today and how can we request things from Jesus through her?

2)Is there a biblical record of people requesting things from Jesus through Mary after Jesus and Mary died?

MaxInDHouse:
Guy there is no excuse just bow to what is written in the scriptures or welcome all forms of religion since they all have excuses for whatever they believe!🙂

I like the fact that I quoted scriptures and I can make reference to them if and when I want to pray for intercession🙂

chimex38:
I like the fact that I quoted scriptures and I can make reference to them if and when I want to pray for intercession🙂

There is no single religion on planet earth that doesn't have scriptures they can quote in support of whatever they are doing in fact TERRORISTS, WITCHES, PROSTITUTES and all have somewhere to quote in support of their beliefs it's just that it is not what Jesus COMMANDED Christians!🙂