₦airaland Forum

Dtruthspeaker:
Even us in Nigeria could we read in 1901? But when we all could read, could we not still appreciate any period whether pre colonial period or pre Socratic period?

Or did you not hear that
The more that you read, the more things you will know. The more you learn, the more places you'll go." – Dr. Seuss

"To read is to voyage through time." – Carl Sagan

“A reader lives a thousand lives before he dies . . . The man who never reads lives only one.” -George R.R. Martin

Please, your argument no enter at all.

You talking as if the current widespread literacy rate has anything to do with how Jesus intended christians to understand the faith. For more than 1500 years fewer than 10% of the population could read. Yet you are adamant that Jesus set up a system where every person, most of whom couldn't read was meant to decide the full meaning of Scripture on their own.!That doesnt match history and it doesnt match the NT process of a church that teaches, safeguards the faith and settles disputes.

You're avoiding the basic fact that Jesus founded a church. If you claim to follow his model, can your own church be traced back to the one he established?

As you're using 21st century mindset to decide what bible teachings / interpretations are, how about a secular example,the Nigerian constitution. Even though most can access it easily and read these days, are you really saying each individual can decide to interpret as they see it? Talk less of a faith established 2000 years ago

btoks:
You talking as if the current widespread literacy rate has anything to do with how Jesus intended christians to understand the faith. For more than 1500 years fewer than 10% of the population could read. Yet you are adamant that Jesus set up a system where every person, most of whom couldn't read was meant to decide the full meaning of Scripture on their own.!That doesnt match history and it doesnt match the NT process of a church that teaches, safeguards the faith and settles disputes.

You're avoiding the basic fact that Jesus founded a church. If you claim to follow his model, can your own church be traced back to the one he established?

As you're using 21st century mindset to decide what bible teachings / interpretations are, how about a secular example,the Nigerian constitution. Even though most can access it easily and read these days, are you really saying each individual can decide to interpret as they see it? Talk less of a faith established 2000 years ago

You were the one who raised the issue of reading so your raising further issues on what Jesus intended makes no sense. As the bible is a representation of the records and Words of Jesus which is gleaned and obtained from reading which every literate individual can interpret of which whatever interpretation he obtains he usually presents it for scrutiny and confirmation or correction so as to get a re-education.

So, whatever anyone interpretes is always subject to verification of confirmation or correction. Which is why in this you and your group are being criticized and corrected

Dtruthspeaker:
You were the one who raised the issue of reading so your raising further issues on what Jesus intended makes no sense. As the bible is a representation of the records and Words of Jesus which is gleaned and obtained from reading which every literate individual can interpret of which whatever interpretation he obtains he usually presents it for scrutiny and confirmation or correction so as to get a re-education.

So, whatever anyone interpretes is always subject to verification of confirmation or correction. Which is why in this you and your group are being criticized and corrected

You don't quite get it as you're still approaching the christian faith from a 2025 mindset. You and the other poster advDNA have alluded to the Catholic church not letting people read or having to read within church tradition or mystery as you put it and my responses have been to let you know how christianity was set and how Jesus intended the faithto be passed on. basically the faith could not have been built on each person's private interpretation 2000 years later as most couldn't even read for 1500 years. Even where people could read they still needed church guidance(I previously gave the example of the ethiopian in Acts

You said people interpretations are subject to verification and confirmation , but where?

the bible didn't cfall out of the sky, there was aldres

If you research church fathers, you will see how they understood the faith. They did not treat doctrine as a set of private interpretation. They taught what they had received. Consider your own interpretations on topics like infant baptism, the eucharist as the actual body and blood of Christ, baptismal regeneration. Do your interpretations match up with what has been taught for centuries .

Nobody says people can't read the bible, the question is whether your interpretations match the faith that christians held for centuries

btoks:
You don't quite get it as you're still approaching the christian faith from a 2025 mindset. You and the other poster advDNA have alluded to the Catholic church not letting people read or having to read within church tradition or mystery as you put it and my responses have been to let you know how christianity was set and how Jesus intended the faithto be passed on. basically the faith could not have been built on each person's private interpretation 2000 years later as most couldn't even read for 1500 years. Even where people could read they still needed church guidance(I previously gave the example of the ethiopian in Acts

You said people interpretations are subject to verification and confirmation , but where?

the bible didn't cfall out of the sky, there was aldres

If you research church fathers, you will see how they understood the faith. They did not treat doctrine as a set of private interpretation. They taught what they had received. Consider your own interpretations on topics like infant baptism, the eucharist as the actual body and blood of Christ, baptismal regeneration. Do your interpretations match up with what has been taught for centuries .

Nobody says people can't read the bible, the question is whether your interpretations match the faith that christians held for centuries

You don't need to let us know for can all see whatever is there to see and assess/reassess whatever you or anyone claims to see. And after due assessment, see all make our comments from there.

In all, in all, what we all are telling you is that you people swallow up everything your church tells you without proper and due scrutiny. I do know that it was a principle/law of your church that people should not question the church of which this even goes against the natural law of verifying any information we are given. Even the things we were taught/told in school we still took time to verify them. So how much the things of life and death where even the Bible asks us to test all information. Hence after all our own personal tests we submit it to public tests and verification to be further sure of our findings.

And that is why we all here are telling you the same thing which is that you guys are wrong and are doing wrong

Dtruthspeaker:
You don't need to let us know for can all see whatever is there to see and assess/reassess whatever you or anyone claims to see. And after due assessment, see all make our comments from there.

In all, in all, what we all are telling you is that you people swallow up everything your church tells you without proper and due scrutiny. I do know that it was a principle/law of your church that people should not question the church of which this even goes against the natural law of verifying any information we are given. Even the things we were taught/told in school we still took time to verify them. So how much the things of life and death where even the Bible asks us to test all information. Hence after all our own personal tests we submit it to public tests and verification to be further sure of our findings.

And that is why we all here are telling you the same thing which is that you guys are wrong and are doing wrong

Now, let's start from here - you are already making a big assumption - swallowing sef to use your own word.
Let's go by your logic, Why do you even believe in the bible at all? What gives you the confidence that the book of hebrews, James, 2 Peter, Jude,2 John, 3John, Revelations should even be in the bible ( disputed even in the 3rd century). Why don't you belive in some hindu book that is likely older, or a Shintu or Buddhist book? Islam also has its claims.
From other debates, you will hear the spirit allowed me know. But we know what the fruits of this private interpretation/ so called verification via sola scriptura approach has led - countless denominations with differing beliefs. Abeg, which one is your church so I can situate it in history. If pentecostal, their doctrines are novel and unknown to historical christianity, abi it's Methodist, baptist, Presbyterian, Mennonite, Anglican, JW etc, we know how they started and the differing beliefs.

Re. bolded, Catholics do not just swallow everything they are told. Catholics submit to the ordinary magisterium of the church as Jesus set up an authoritative church with the power to bind and lose. You may dispute matters but once a matter has been declared as doctrine/dogma, there is no further questioning and that's the way it's always been. - see Acts 15 for example.

How exactly did the bible tell us to test things? give exactly detail. Now tell us how you will test the validity of the books of the bible I mentioned before. Even any of the gospels for that matter via this public test. Next, please tell us whether the consecrated bresd and wine become the actual body and blood of Jesus. Then, whether baptism is regenerational.

Your post is filled with a lot of assumptions and taking things for granted

K

Penguin2:
If as a supposed believer who is trying to lecture me on the right theology of Christianity, you don’t know Original Sin, then you have no reason to be talking to me nor was I even supposed to reply you in the first place.

Where did I indicate that I wanted to lecture you? Have I not been asking you questions since?

Truthseeker10:
KWhere did I indicate that I wanted to lecture you? Have I not been asking you questions since?

So, are you telling me that as a believer in Christ and a Christian, you don’t know what Original Sin means?

And to the moderators, OAM4J, NLFPMOD, why was the post against the Catholic Church moved to front page but the reply to that post refused to be pushed to the front page too?

Is there a bias against Catholicism?

Penguin2:
So, are you telling me that as a believer in Christ and a Christian, you don’t know what Original Sin means?

And to the moderators, OAM4J, NLFPMOD, why was the post against the Catholic Church moved to front page but the reply to that post refused to be pushed to the front page too?

Is there a bias against Catholicism?

Please explain what it means

Dtruthspeaker:
You think people do not see nor know about the 100 chants of hall Mary's you recite just like ifa priests do during Easter as you people chant through the 4 sets of supposed mysteries which your priests say you should do every day and we all know Catholics who chant them from time to time? Please, man, this is not even the issue.



No need to repeat yourself for I just pointed out that your "Hail, holy Queen, Mother of Mercy, hail our life, our sweetness, and our hope" and the rest, is proof of worship.

The angel did not even greet her like this meanwhile it is exactly the same one the Romans gave to their gods.

So, here we see that they have chosen Mary and made her a god just like June aka Juno and the they have made you people to worship Mary as a god just like they did to Juno.

You don't even have this kind of worship for the disciples, so clearly you people are guilty of worshipping Mary and turning her into a demigod

Hail holy queen - A woman who bore the king of glory is by default a queen.
Mother of mercy - is Jesus her son not the mercy sent to us humans.
Hail our life, our sweetness, our hope - greet (our life, sweetness and hope) all these in bracket is Jesus except understanding is your problem.

Hail, Holy Queen, Mother of Mercy,
our life, our sweetness and our hope.
To you do we cry,
poor banished children of Eve.
To you do we send up our sighs,
mourning and weeping in this valley of tears
Turn then, most gracious advocate,
your eyes of mercy toward us,
and after this exile
show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb,
Jesus.
O clement, O loving,
O sweet Virgin Mary.

If your understanding of this prayer is not Mary showing people to Jesus then you are here to just condemn and not understand.

A lot of you non catholics just keep complaining. If statues and images were not preserved how will you know such things happened.

Hope you are aware that there are several places that even God ask images and statues to be built (ark off the covenant, bronze serpent, the temple described in Ezekiel's vision which was the futuristic temple in the new Jerusalem). If these doesn't help your understanding of the importance cultural artifacts in Christianity then there is no helping you.

Aizenosa:
Hail holy queen - A woman who bore the king of glory is by default a queen.
Mother of mercy - is Jesus her son not the mercy sent to us humans.
Hail our life, our sweetness, our hope - greet (our life, sweetness and hope) all these in bracket is Jesus except understanding is your problem.

So the surrogate who carried your child is the mother of your child?

Aizenosa:
A lot of you non catholics just keep complaining. If statues and images were not preserved how will you know such things happened

Hope you are aware that there are several places that even God ask images and statues to be built (ark off the covenant, bronze serpent, the temple described in Ezekiel's vision which was the futuristic temple in the new Jerusalem). If these doesn't help your understanding of the importance cultural artifacts in Christianity then there is no helping you.

This is still invalid as the commandments clearly prohibited stated that do not now nor serve the images where you people disobey by bowing and serving Mary, to the point that you even built shrines and prayers specifically and specially for her.

And, whereas God commanded the cherubims to be constructed for His Ark of the covenant, it is you man who by yourself created images of things in heaven and on earth and of men, exactly how the Israelites gave created for themselves the golden calf.

Plus, no where did you see the people of Israel bowing down, worshipping the image on the Ark of the covenant, nor did they make their own personal copy of the images of there to put in their tents or houses to genuflect and kiss them.

So, this excuse is invalid and does not stand.

Just a word of caution, You people are not afraid of God oo. You do know that the Adam tried to excuse his disobedience, it did not work, the Israelites did the same on the golden calf, it did not hold. Saul, did the same, it still did not work. Una no dey FEAR GOD?

Dtruthspeaker:
This is still invalid as the commandments clearly prohibited stated that do not now nor serve the images where you people disobey by bowing and serving Mary, to the point that you even built shrines and prayers specifically and specially for her.

And, whereas God commanded the cherubims to be constructed for His Ark of the covenant, it is you man who by yourself created images of things in heaven and on earth and of men, exactly how the Israelites gave created for themselves the golden calf.

Plus, no where did you see the people of Israel bowing down, worshipping the image on the Ark of the covenant, nor did they make their own personal copy of the images of there to put in their tents or houses to genuflect and kiss them.

So, this excuse is invalid and does not stand.

Just a word of caution, You people are not afraid of God oo. You do know that the Adam tried to excuse his disobedience, it did not work, the Israelites did the same on the golden calf, it did not hold. Saul, did the same, it still did not work. Una no dey FEAR GOD?

Where did the Catholic church tell you that people worship images, it seems like your understanding is not complete, a set mindset leads to destruction not open to learn what is truth leads to destruction.

Dtruthspeaker:
So the surrogate who carried your child is the mother of your child?

So the bible teaches surrogate birth right, so who is the true mother of Jesus, because surrogate birth says that both the sperm and egg which the sperm fertilises come from a different person than that who gives birth to the child.

The church teaches that in the beginning God created man and woman. And for salvation to come to humans, it had to come from humans.

Adam fell and lost the grace of God so all his descendants bore the image of Adam, so that every spirit seed born of Adam and his descendants fell into the same sin.

Jesus that had to take the form of man and be born of woman for salvation to come through. So the Holy Spirit made the spirit seed available and had to come upon Mary and thats why the birth of Jesus was different from normal humans, and it had to be recorded.

Jesus was human and the only way he differed from other humans was in sin as said in the bible.

So when Christ died the sin of Adam could not hold him in the grave and that's how he triumphed over satan.

Aizenosa:
Where did the Catholic church tell you that people worship images, it seems like your understanding is not complete, a set mindset leads to destruction not open to learn what is truth leads to destruction.

This is Off Point, besides,
Did I say Catholic church told people to worship images? (Of which they even did as seen during your stations of the cross). But as I said this is not the issue.

I just wonder how you people do not Fear God! But anyway, your choice

Aizenosa:
So the bible teaches surrogate birth right, so who is the true mother of Jesus, because surrogate birth says that both the sperm and egg which the sperm fertilises come from a different person than that who gives birth to the child.

1) Off point.

2) Thank God the bible shows that no sperm and egg was involved in the surrogacy and Christ still achieved the Plan of God. So, you have said no thing.

StillDtruth:
This is Off Point, besides,
Did I say Catholic church told people to worship images? (Of which they even did as seen during your stations of the cross). But as I said this is not the issue.

I just wonder how you people do not Fear God! But anyway, your choice

Seriously!

In flagrant disobedience of the commandment to not make images of anything whether in the heavens ooo (this one catch their Mary wey dem go tell you say em dey heaven) or earth ooo or even water ooo.

Yet they do it rebelliously without fear ah.

Na God save me from that paganic and idolatry church.

Aizenosa:
Hail, Holy Queen, Mother of Mercy,
our life, our sweetness and our hope.
To you do we cry,
poor banished children of Eve.
To you do we send up our sighs,
mourning and weeping in this valley of tears
Turn then, most gracious advocate,
your eyes of mercy toward us,
and after this exile
show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb,
Jesus.
O clement, O loving,
O sweet Virgin Mary.

If your understanding of this prayer is not Mary showing people to Jesus then you are here to just condemn and not understand.

See all the sweet praises to one human called Mary.

Even God no get all this kind of sweet praises in that una place.

Then why would you need Mary to show you Jesus when Jesus Himself is not in hiding.

He even says come unto me.

Ah, I thank God for saving me from that una paganism and idolatry place.

There is really no helping you people walai, the bible verses are there for you to read and learn, nor be hear say them dem take dey argue.

Aizenosa:
There is really no helping you people walai, the bible verses are there for you to read and learn, nor be hear say them dem take dey argue.

And the Bible verses have told you clearly to not make images whether of anything in the heavens since una say Mary dey heaven, yet you open eyedly disobey the word of God Himself.

Una go learn!

vdestro:
And the Bible verses have told you clearly to not make images whether of anything in the heavens since una say Mary dey heaven, yet you open eyedly disobey the word of God Himself.

Una go learn!

Una true true nor dey read una bible at all yet you attribute your failures and put it on someone else, study your bible and be wise.

No wonder nobody even took the energy to teach una self.

Aizenosa:
Una true true nor dey read una bible at all yet you attribute your failures and put it on someone else, study your bible and be wise.

see who dey worship Mary in full chested disobedience to God's word as contained in the same Bible dey talk of study and wise

O boy, na you need that study and wise for you are lacking in both.

vdestro:
Seriously!

In flagrant disobedience of the commandment to not make images of anything whether in the heavens ooo (this one catch their Mary wey dem go tell you say em dey heaven) or earth ooo or even water ooo.

Yet they do it rebelliously without fear ah.

Na God save me from that paganic and idolatry church.

I tremble for them ooo. Anyway, if someone can put smoke in his own body, it will not be far fetched that they shall see faya and not enter it

Aizenosa:
No wonder nobody even took the energy to teach una self.

Unfortunately for you, what you people do is indefensible and can never stand.

You need to teach yourself truth and only trying to justify wrongs will only bring you pain and more pain.

Repent from paganism and idolatry.

Dtruthspeaker:
I tremble for them ooo. Anyway, if someone can put smoke in his own body, it will not be far fetched that they shall see faya and not enter it

That place eh, hmmm. Anybody that loves himself would run far far away from that shrine.

Aizenosa:
There is really no helping you people walai, the bible verses are there for you to read and learn, nor be hear say them dem take dey argue.

Yet you could not cite the Bible that defends you people's wrong doing. No Catholic here could. That tells you.

The way you people can just use your own hands to pour fire on themselves shocks and amazes me. However, na una right.

vdestro:
That place eh, hmmm. Anybody that loves himself would run far far away from that shrine.

People usually do not love themselves so, no hope

Aizenosa:
No wonder nobody even took the energy to teach una self.

Clearly because they know that they are teaching a Lie and if the students ask questions, teacher, like you can never defend it.

vdestro:
And the Bible verses have told you clearly to not make images whether of anything in the heavens since una say Mary dey heaven, yet you open eyedly disobey the word of God Himself.

Una go learn!

Didn't the OT also clearly state that circumcision was required to become part of the covenant with God. What was then decided by the church in Acts 15 against the judaizer controversy?

The fact is sola scriptura limits knowledge of christian history and the church established to bind and loose.

Re images-There was the iconoclast controversy and the church clearly defined at the 2nd Nicaea council (787 AD)that images of could be displayed in churces and homes . See link and summary of decree. This same church declared what the canon of the bible is and many doctrines you take for granted.
https://share.google/poNPYCsA2AMzT6JWe


We define with all certitude and accuracy that, just as the figure of the precious and life-giving Cross, so also the venerable and holy images, whether painted or made of mosaic or of any other suitable material, are to be set forth in the holy churches of God, on sacred vessels and vestments, on walls and panels, in houses and by the wayside, namely, the image of our Lord God and Savior Jesus Christ, of our spotless Lady the holy Mother of God, of the honorable angels, and of all saints and righteous men.

For the more frequently they are seen in pictorial representation, the more those who behold them are lifted up to the memory and desire of the originals, and are led to give them greeting and reverent veneration, not indeed the true worship of faith which pertains to the divine nature alone, but such honor as is shown to the figure of the precious and life-giving Cross, to the holy Gospels, and to other sacred objects, with the offering of incense and lights, according to ancient pious custom.

For the honor paid to the image passes to the prototype, and whoever venerates an image venerates in it the person represented.

Thus the teaching of our holy Fathers is strengthened, that is, the tradition of the Catholic Church, which from one end of the earth to the other has received the Gospel.

Therefore, those who dare to think or teach otherwise, or who reject the traditions of the Church, or who attempt to do away with any ecclesiastical tradition, whether written or unwritten, or who devise innovations against the holy images, or the churches, or the sacred vessels, or the venerable Cross, or who introduce evil heresies, we subject to anathema.

btoks:
Didn't the OT also clearly state that circumcision was required to become part of the covenant with God. What was then decided by the church in Acts 15 against the judaizer controversy?

The fact is sola scriptura limits knowledge of christian history and the church established to bind and loose.

Re images-There was the iconoclast controversy and the church clearly defined at the 2nd Nicaea council (787 AD)that images of could be displayed in churces and homes . See link and summary of decree. This same church declared what the canon of the bible is and many doctrines you take for granted.
https://share.google/poNPYCsA2AMzT6JWe


We define with all certitude and accuracy that, just as the figure of the precious and life-giving Cross, so also the venerable and holy images, whether painted or made of mosaic or of any other suitable material, are to be set forth in the holy churches of God, on sacred vessels and vestments, on walls and panels, in houses and by the wayside, namely, the image of our Lord God and Savior Jesus Christ, of our spotless Lady the holy Mother of God, of the honorable angels, and of all saints and righteous men.

For the more frequently they are seen in pictorial representation, the more those who behold them are lifted up to the memory and desire of the originals, and are led to give them greeting and reverent veneration, not indeed the true worship of faith which pertains to the divine nature alone, but such honor as is shown to the figure of the precious and life-giving Cross, to the holy Gospels, and to other sacred objects, with the offering of incense and lights, according to ancient pious custom.

For the honor paid to the image passes to the prototype, and whoever venerates an image venerates in it the person represented.

Thus the teaching of our holy Fathers is strengthened, that is, the tradition of the Catholic Church, which from one end of the earth to the other has received the Gospel.

Therefore, those who dare to think or teach otherwise, or who reject the traditions of the Church, or who attempt to do away with any ecclesiastical tradition, whether written or unwritten, or who devise innovations against the holy images, or the churches, or the sacred vessels, or the venerable Cross, or who introduce evil heresies, we subject to anathema.

I am sure you do not see that you sound like a mar_/d person. For with all your plenty talk you have said nothing.

Nothing can defend your worship of images and even your empty attempt to use circumcision to cover your open disobedience of Commandment No 1 is so horrible and only goes to show how openly desperate you definitely are.

Guy continue to disobey eh, nobody dey beg you to commot.

Una go learn!