₦airaland Forum

QuinQ:
Did you read what I wrote? ETERNALLY begotten not created

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I hope you know that is an impossible contradiction.

Good night.

QuinQ:
I just want you to articulate the difference between your belief and that of Trinitarians.

I have always told you people that JWs aren't worshiping the same God with any other religion whether they claim Christian or not as long as you are not a student of Watchtower automatically you are not worshiping our God!

Long before the creation of other things God first created one spirit being {Proverbs 8:22} he spent a long time with God for so long that he always imitate whatever he notice his father/God doing {John 5:19} so as a gift for this child God decided to create more life but He wanted this child to take part in the creation work so God empowered him to create so many things {Proverbs 8:30} but the Son always give all the glory to his father.

That is why the scriptures say he was with God in the beginning {John 1:2} and when his first century disciples view this son of God they realized that even though God had many spirit sons {Job 38:7; Genesis 6:1} this one is not just one of them but the first born of all creation {Colossians 1:15} that is what makes him the only begotten Son of God. John 1:14; 3:16; 1John 4:9

So Jesus is one of the angels (sons of God) Satan is also one of them that is why they are all called morning stars {Job 38:7; Isaiah 14:12} but because God is the source of light {Psalms 36:9} and Jesus has been with God longer than all other sons of God he is the brightest of all the morning stars! Revelation 22:16

Daniel the prophet saw Jesus' in the spirit and prophesied about Jesus' mission to planet earth he called him Michael {Daniel 12:1} and everything Jesus will do was revealed to him! Daniel 12:2-3

So if anyone says Jesus is God we don't argue with them because we know that Jesus is the angel who always represent God in the past {Exodus 13:21; 14:19} and he is the prophet who was to come in the manner of Moses {Deuteronomy 18:18} the first prophet to be called God {Exodus 7:1} and Peter confirmed that Jesus is the prophet who is to come in the manner of Moses! Act 3:22

QuinQ:
Maybe he is musicwriter

OK!😃

QuinQ:
That's the point. Jesus Godship has stood the test of time. I've never heard of anyone worshipping Olumba Olumba as God, or anyone claiming to be God for that matter

Islamic population is set to overtake Christianity and will possibly be the dominant world religion the way Christianity is today. If that happens will you then become a Muslim?

DeepSight:
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What's the problem. Surely you know JWs don't condemn alcohol, only the abuse of it.

Men!

You guys are unbelievable in your rose tinted glasses.

Job 1:6 remains evidence that Satan is also a begotten son of your Yahweh.

Bwahahahahahahhahahahhaha! Apologies to LordReed.

LoLz. My guy enjoy jare. Bwahahahahaha!

musicwriter:
The stories about your Jesus in the New testament is a generic story about a savior, Messiah, redeemer as it was told in ancient times, thousands of years before anybody heard about your Jesus.

The story was not talking about any particular person because it evolved thousands (if not millions) of years from the life of the snake. It is the Roman empire that affixed Jesus to it to tell their own version.

That's why if you read carefully, you'll notice that the writers are writing as the third person, so that even as Mathew was supposedly writing as an eyewitness to an event but he keeps on saying "Jesus said to Mathew" or "Jesus said to his disciples" even when he was the one supposedly writing!! At no time did any supposed eyewitness say "Jesus told me" or "Jesus told us".

But if you care to know, that's because the author of the book of Mathew never saw Jesus, instead he was just narrating a story as it was told for thousands of years by different cultures around the world before anybody heard about your Jesus

OoooKay! Tacitus wrote long before Constantine so who exactly commissioned creation of Christ and Christianity and WHY?? And while at it also tell us if OT is also made up

DeepSight:
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I hope you know that is an impossible contradiction.

Good night.

Ok.what word would you use to describe the moon if it were eternally connected to the earth? If you're not comfortable with "begotten" then use that word

LordReed:
Islamic population is set to overtake Christianity and will possibly be the dominant world religion the way Christianity is today. If that happens will you then become a Muslim?

Even if everyone becomes a Muslim I'd still be a Christian. What has that to do with anything?

QuinQ:
OoooKay! Tacitus wrote long before Constantine so who exactly commissioned creation of Christ and Christianity and WHY?? And while at it also tell us if OT is also made up

Nobody just sat down and said "I want to create Jesus" rather the story evolved from the snake for millions of years. It became Horus, Mithra, Krishna, Buddha, Zoroastra, etc, in various cultures . That's why your Jesus (which came relatively recently) has the same attributes as the older ones.

Indeed, that's why Tacitus will mention a "Christ" because the concept of a Savior, Messiah, redeemer was already more than 7,000 years before anybody heard of your Jesus.

musicwriter:
Nobody just sat down and said "I want to create Jesus" rather the story evolved from the snake for millions of years. It became Horus, Mithra, Krishna, Buddha, Zoroastra, etc, in various cultures . That's why your Jesus (which came relatively recently) has the same attributes as the older ones.

Indeed, that's why Tacitus will mention a "Christ" because the concept of a Savior, Messiah, redeemer was already more than 7,000 years before anybody heard of your Jesus.

So it was no longer created by Constantine. People just sat down and started writing fiction, then became willing to be tortured and killed for the fiction. Are you ok sir? And how about OT?

QuinQ:
Even if everyone becomes a Muslim I'd still be a Christian. What has that to do with anything?

Well it seems to me like you think Christianity's longevity and dominance is a reason to believe so the question is if some other equally long lived religion was dominant will it be a reason to believe? Besides there are older religions than Christianity that have had gods come in the flesh I wonder why you don't believe in those. Is it because they are not dominant? If they became dominant would you change after all they have been around longer than Christianity.

QuinQ:
So it was no longer created by Constantine. People just sat down and started writing fiction, then became willing to be tortured and killed for the fiction. Are you ok sir? And how about OT?

The Roman empire simply domesticated the religion as they could see that it helped to control the masses.

Yes, it was done by a wicked tyrant, not by a humane person. Constantine was overly very wicked and can go to any length to enforce his will even if he has to enforce a fiction.

He killed his son and wife. That's to tell you just how wicked he was. But this part is not taught in your church

LordReed:
Well it seems to me like you think Christianity's longevity and dominance is a reason to believe so the question is if some other equally long lived religion was dominant will it be a reason to believe? Besides there are older religions than Christianity that have had gods come in the flesh I wonder why you don't believe in those. Is it because they are not dominant? If they became dominant would you change after all they have been around longer than Christianity.

No, I've said it was personal encounter that produces the knowing with certitude that Jesus is alive and active. That's how most people become Chrustians, not through anyone convincinb them with arguments.
So the answer is, no other religion can have all the elements that led to me being a Christian because there can only be one Jesus.

musicwriter:
The Roman empire simply domesticated the religion as they could see that it helped to control the masses.

Yes, it was done by a wicked tyrant, not by a humane person. Constantine was overly very wicked and can go to any length to enforce his will even if he has to enforce a fiction.

He killed his son and wife. That's to tell you just how wicked he was. But this part is not taught in your church

WHO in the Roman empire? Constantine's mother and others around him were already Christians before his Edict of Milan. Christians were persecuted by Rome for a long time. The emperor was a god - Christianity took away his godship and made him a commoner, then took away all the gids that helped Rome become an empire, and labeled them false gods. So WHO exactly? Also, Rome was portrayed as bad and killing and jailing innocent people in the story they supposedly made up! Not a single good thing said about Romr!
Once again, are u ok sir?

QuinQ:
WHO in the Roman empire? Constantine's mother and others around him were already Christians before his Edict of Milan. Christians were persecuted by Rome for a long time. The emperor was a god - Christianity took away his godship and made him a commoner, then took away all the gids that helped Rome become an empire, and labeled them false gods. So WHO exactly? Also, Rome was portrayed as bad and killing and jailing innocent people in the story they supposedly made up! Not a single good thing said about Romr!
Once again, are u ok sir?

Those are church traditions history to keep you believing. It's not real history. In reality, Constantine was a Devil's incarnate. He killed his son, wife, and many of his in-laws. Again, you have been kept blind about this part.

If you're descending to insults, then I wonder why you want me to believe in your God. I can't see it in you

musicwriter:
Those are church traditions history to keep you believing. It's not real history. In reality, Constantine was a Devil's incarnate. He killed his son, wife, and many of his in-laws. Again, you have been kept blind about this part.

If you're descending to insults, then I wonder why you want me to believe in your God. I can't see it in you

"Are u ok?" is not an insult. It is a question.
Are you now satisfied that Constantine did NOT make up Christianity? That Rome tried it's best to suppress Christianity but failed and instead Christianity abolished their gods and their god-emperor?
Are you now satisfied that Christianity was exactly as Tacitus wrote - a small sect that started in Judea which Rome did it's utmost worst persecution to suppress but it ended up suppressing Rome without any act of aggression wharsoever?

MaxInDHouse:
OK!😃

We now know for certain that sonmvayina is musicwriter!
It is hard to camouflage who you are on Nairaland. Hard to hide your "voice"!😅

QuinQ:
No, I've said it was personal encounter that produces the knowing with certitude that Jesus is alive and active. That's how most people become Chrustians, not through anyone convincinb them with arguments.
So the answer is, no other religion can have all the elements that led to me being a Christian because there can only be one Jesus.

Still not a great argument. Check on YouTube you'll find people claiming personal encounters with Norse gods and goddess even Egyptian ones.

LordReed:
Still not a great argument. Check on YouTube you'll find people claiming personal encounters with Norse gods and goddess even Egyptian ones.

You have mouth to say this only because you're lucky not to be dealing with any supernatural attacks!
No one needs to tell those dealing with demonic attacks that Jesus is alive, and that demons tremble at mention of that name!
Give you an example, say someone were under supernatural attack and were close to suicide. They've tried everything, then they bump into Christianity and the tormenting demons suddenly fled at mention of Jesus, do you think anyone would need to convince them Christ is alive and active? They'd know for certain without any doubt!
There are many things we don't know and not everything goes by logic.

QuinQ:
"Are u ok?" is not an insult. It is a question.
Are you now satisfied that Constantine did NOT make up Christianity? That Rome tried it's best to suppress Christianity but failed and instead Christianity abolished their gods and their god-emperor?
Are you now satisfied that Christianity was exactly as Tacitus wrote - a small sect that started in Judea which Rome did it's utmost worst persecution to suppress but it ended up suppressing Rome without any act of aggression wharsoever?

The version of Christianity you practice today is Roman Christianity, which was run by the Roman Catholic Church for hundreds of years. The one started in Judea was actually conquered and replaced by Rome. You're saying exactly the opposite of what happened and have no idea what Rome did!!

We

sonmvayina:
There is no evidence that Jesus actually lived, so what would a real historian write about him?

It would be like writing a “history” of King Arthur or Robin Hood, about whom nothing is known but their names and some far-fetched legends.

Was the magical sword in the stone historical, or the bible’s “virgin birth”?

A serious historian would know there is no real evidence that Jesus existed.

Just hearsay.

All that we have is a “big fish” story in which a minnow became a whale.

How did that happen?

It happened because the gospels are fairytale book with:

A virgin birth
walking on water
A ludicrous ZOMBIE APOCALYPSE
and so on…
As with other books of ancient mythology, we can’t assume actual events are being depicted.

Thus, we have to seek confirmation outside the bible.

But no one who lived at the time Jesus allegedly lived wrote a single word about him.

The earliest extra-biblical mention we have of Jesus is an implausible blurb in the histories of Josephus, written long after the fact, if there are any facts.

Furthermore, 92.4% of scholars who expressed opinions deemed the blurb a christian forgery, either largely or entirely.

The next mention was by the Roman historian Tacitus, a century after the fact, and he got Pilate’s job title wrong, strongly suggesting that he was quoting what he had heard Roman christians say.

And hearsay is not evidence.

Thus there is no actual evidence that Jesus existed, or any of his apostles.

An honest historian would conclude that he couldn’t write a history of Jesus, only conjecture.

This is chatGPT generated view on your question.


Yes. Outside the Bible and Jewish historical writings, there are non-Christian, Greco-Roman sources that mention Jesus (or early Christians) within the 1st and early 2nd centuries AD. These are important because they come from hostile or neutral witnesses, not believers.
Below are the most credible and commonly cited sources.
1. Tacitus (Roman historian, c. AD 56–120)
Work: Annals (Book 15, Chapter 44)
Date written: c. AD 116
Tacitus describes Nero blaming Christians for the Great Fire of Rome and explains who they were:
“Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilate…”
What this confirms:
Jesus existed
He was executed
Execution was under Pontius Pilate
During the reign of Tiberius Caesar
Tacitus was hostile to Christianity, making this testimony especially strong.
2. Pliny the Younger (Roman governor, c. AD 61–113)
Work: Letters (Letter 10.96)
Date written: c. AD 112
Pliny writes to Emperor Trajan asking how to deal with Christians:
They met on a fixed day before dawn and sang a hymn to Christ as to a god…
What this confirms:
Christians worshipped Jesus as divine
Christianity spread rapidly
Worship practices existed very early
3. Suetonius (Roman historian, c. AD 69–122)
Work: Lives of the Twelve Caesars
Date written: c. AD 120
He writes about Emperor Claudius:
“He expelled the Jews from Rome because they were constantly rioting at the instigation of Chrestus.”
Most scholars understand “Chrestus” as a reference to Christ, reflecting disputes among Jews about Jesus.
What this confirms:
Early conflicts about Christ
Jesus was known enough to cause unrest in Rome
4. Lucian of Samosata (Greek satirist, c. AD 125–180)
Work: The Passing of Peregrinus
Lucian mocks Christians and writes:
They worship a man to this day—the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account…
What this confirms:
Jesus was crucified
He was a religious leader
Christians worshipped Him
Lucian was openly mocking Christianity, not supporting it.
5. Mara bar-Serapion (Syrian philosopher, late 1st or early 2nd century)
Work: Letter to his son (in Syriac)
He refers to:
“The wise king of the Jews, whom the Jews executed…”
What this confirms:
Jesus was considered wise
He was executed
His influence continued after death
Important Clarification
You asked outside the Bible and Jewish history, so sources like:
Josephus
Talmudic writings
are excluded here, even though they do mention Jesus.
Scholarly Consensus
Virtually all serious historians (Christian, Jewish, secular, atheist) agree on these minimal facts:
Jesus of Nazareth existed
He was a Jewish teacher
He was crucified under Pontius Pilate
His followers worshipped Him shortly after His death
Christianity spread rapidly despite persecution
This is why the idea that “Jesus never existed” is considered fringe and unscholarly.

QuinQ:
We now know for certain that sonmvayina is musicwriter!
It is hard to camouflage who you are on Nairaland. Hard to hide your "voice"!😅

I knew before now that sonmvayina has multiple accounts on Nairaland but not this one it's obvious from the comments that he is the same person.
That's why i always maintain my stand on what i believe so no matter how many commentators that comes my way they will see that i'm unchangeable it's either we agree on what i believe or each person goes his or her own way.

sonmvayina:
so why make up stories around him? like virgin birth and all that stuff?

That's because religious people love to make up all sorts of bs for whatever reason.
Like Mohammed splitting the moon or a Nigerian pastor having his foot print on a rock.

QuinQ:
Give example of another such religion.

Christianity.

musicwriter:
The version of Christianity you practice today is Roman Christianity, which was run by the Roman Catholic Church for hundreds of years. The one started in Judea was actually conquered and replaced by Rome. You're saying exactly the opposite of what happened and have no idea what Rome did!!

Who is "Rome"? Rome replaced her cherished gods as false, and their god-emperor as a lowly sinner needing forgiveness; all replaced by a God Rome "conquered". Try to at least make a little bit of sense!
Also read the below again:

MightySparrow:
This is chatGPT generated view on your question.

Yes. Outside the Bible and Jewish historical writings, there are non-Christian, Greco-Roman sources that mention Jesus (or early Christians) within the 1st and early 2nd centuries AD. These are important because they come from hostile or neutral witnesses, not believers.
Below are the most credible and commonly cited sources.
1. Tacitus (Roman historian, c. AD 56–120)
Work: Annals (Book 15, Chapter 44)
Date written: c. AD 116
Tacitus describes Nero blaming Christians for the Great Fire of Rome and explains who they were:
“Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilate…”
What this confirms:
Jesus existed
He was executed
Execution was under Pontius Pilate
During the reign of Tiberius Caesar
Tacitus was hostile to Christianity, making this testimony especially strong.
2. Pliny the Younger (Roman governor, c. AD 61–113)
Work: Letters (Letter 10.96)
Date written: c. AD 112
Pliny writes to Emperor Trajan asking how to deal with Christians:
They met on a fixed day before dawn and sang a hymn to Christ as to a god…
What this confirms:
Christians worshipped Jesus as divine
Christianity spread rapidly
Worship practices existed very early
3. Suetonius (Roman historian, c. AD 69–122)
Work: Lives of the Twelve Caesars
Date written: c. AD 120
He writes about Emperor Claudius:
“He expelled the Jews from Rome because they were constantly rioting at the instigation of Chrestus.”
Most scholars understand “Chrestus” as a reference to Christ, reflecting disputes among Jews about Jesus.
What this confirms:
Early conflicts about Christ
Jesus was known enough to cause unrest in Rome
4. Lucian of Samosata (Greek satirist, c. AD 125–180)
Work: The Passing of Peregrinus
Lucian mocks Christians and writes:
They worship a man to this day—the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account…
What this confirms:
Jesus was crucified
He was a religious leader
Christians worshipped Him
Lucian was openly mocking Christianity, not supporting it.
5. Mara bar-Serapion (Syrian philosopher, late 1st or early 2nd century)
Work: Letter to his son (in Syriac)
He refers to:
“The wise king of the Jews, whom the Jews executed…”
What this confirms:
Jesus was considered wise
He was executed
His influence continued after death
Important Clarification
You asked outside the Bible and Jewish history, so sources like:
Josephus
Talmudic writings
are excluded here, even though they do mention Jesus.
Scholarly Consensus
Virtually all serious historians (Christian, Jewish, secular, atheist) agree on these minimal facts:
Jesus of Nazareth existed
He was a Jewish teacher
He was crucified under Pontius Pilate
His followers worshipped Him shortly after His death
Christianity spread rapidly despite persecution
This is why the idea that “Jesus never existed” is considered fringe and unscholarly.

kingxsamz:
Christianity.

Do you know the meaning of the word "another"?

MaxInDHouse:
I have always told you people that JWs aren't worshiping the same God with any other religion whether they claim Christian or not as long as you are not a student of Watchtower automatically you are not worshiping our God!

Long before the creation of other things God first created one spirit being {Proverbs 8:22} he spent a long time with God for so long that he always imitate whatever he notice his father/God doing {John 5:19} so as a gift for this child God decided to create more life but He wanted this child to take part in the creation work so God empowered him to create so many things {Proverbs 8:30} but the Son always give all the glory to his father.

That is why the scriptures say he was with God in the beginning {John 1:2} and when his first century disciples view this son of God they realized that even though God had many spirit sons {Job 38:7; Genesis 6:1} this one is not just one of them but the first born of all creation {Colossians 1:15} that is what makes him the only begotten Son of God. John 1:14; 3:16; 1John 4:9

So Jesus is one of the angels (sons of God) Satan is also one of them that is why they are all called morning stars {Job 38:7; Isaiah 14:12} but because God is the source of light {Psalms 36:9} and Jesus has been with God longer than all other sons of God he is the brightest of all the morning stars! Revelation 22:16

Daniel the prophet saw Jesus' in the spirit and prophesied about Jesus' mission to planet earth he called him Michael {Daniel 12:1} and everything Jesus will do was revealed to him! Daniel 12:2-3

So if anyone says Jesus is God we don't argue with them because we know that Jesus is the angel who always represent God in the past {Exodus 13:21; 14:19} and he is the prophet who was to come in the manner of Moses {Deuteronomy 18:18} the first prophet to be called God {Exodus 7:1} and Peter confirmed that Jesus is the prophet who is to come in the manner of Moses! Act 3:22

If He was created why is He said to be begotten not created??

QuinQ:
If He was created why is He said to be begotten not created??

The word "BEGOTTEN" means born or come to existence in a special way!

Jesus is the one and only creature made by God directly but all other creatures exists through God's orders carried out by Jesus.

That's why the Bible book of Genesis keeps repeating God's orders to someone beside God during the creation of other things! John 1:2

“Let there be light.” Genesis 1:3

“Let there be an expanse between the waters, and let there be a division between the waters and the waters.” Genesis 1:6

“Let the waters under the heavens be collected together into one place, and let the dry land appear.” Genesis 1:9

“Let the earth cause grass to sprout, seed-bearing plants and fruit trees according to their kinds, yielding fruit along with seed on the earth.” Genesis 1: 11

“Let there be luminaries in the expanse of the heavens to make a division between the day and the night, and they will serve as signs for seasons and for days and years.  They will serve as luminaries in the expanse of the heavens to shine upon the earth.” Genesis 1:14-15

“Let the waters swarm with living creatures, and let flying creatures fly above the earth across the expanse of the heavens.” Genesis 1:20

“Let the earth bring forth living creatures according to their kinds, domestic animals and creeping animals and wild animals of the earth according to their kinds.” Genesis 1:24

“Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness, and let them have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and the domestic animals and all the earth and every creeping animal that is moving on the earth.” Genesis 1:26

These are instructions or orders given to someone who is working beside God as a master craftsman {Proverbs 8:30} this is the person God first created as His first work {Proverbs 8:22} and the first born of all creation! Colossians 1:15

QuinQ:
Who is "Rome"? Rome replaced her cherished gods as false, and their god-emperor as a lowly sinner needing forgiveness; all replaced by a God Rome "conquered". Try to at least make a little bit of sense!
Also read the below again:

You're speaking from the point of view of today as a rigid believer and as someone who doesn't know about ancient cultures and religious scencetism.

In ancient times, religion wasn't as rigid as it is today. People often adapted to new religions and took what is necessary.

That's what Rome did.

Before Rome adopted Christianity, they already had the son of God Mithra who died and shed his blood to save humanity, had 12 disciples, died and resurrected, etc. So, Rome didn't have any problem adopting and adapting to what was deemed good in Christianity. For POLITICAL purposes, they adapted to Christianity to conquer it.

If it was possible for you to wake up the early Judean Christians from the grave, you and them would be having two different religions. They weren't even called Christians. They began to be called Christians several years later in Antioch, Turkey. This was probably a different sect on its own

musicwriter:
You're speaking from the point of view of today as a rigid believer and as someone who doesn't know about ancient cultures and religious scencetism.

In ancient times, religion wasn't as rigid as it is today. People often adapted to new religions and took what is necessary.

That's what Rome did.

Before Rome adopted Christianity, they already had the son of God Mithra who died and shed his blood to save humanity, had 12 disciples, died and resurrected, etc. So, Rome didn't have any problem adopting and adapting to what was deemed good in Christianity. For POLITICAL purposes, they adapted to Christianity to conquer it. If it was possible for you to wake up the early Judean Christians from the grave, you and them would be having two different religions

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Purely political move by Constantine. And without him Christianity would have faded away like many other little sects of the past.

Why Is Jesus Not Included In Academic History Books?

Because he is God's Only Begotten Son!🙂

MaxInDHouse:
Why Is Jesus Not Included In Academic History Books?

Because he is God's Only Begotten Son!🙂

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Along with Satan, according to Job 1:6.