₦airaland Forum

DeepSight:
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Are you saying that an atonement does not work even if one is contrite and does everything possible to make reparations?

Well, I can only agree to that for some really grievous crimes.

Good. This is where I respectfully tell you to keep using your experiences to examine it, so that you won't say it is me who said it. So go check it out and see

DeepSight:
But that will be before man and not before God.

If man that you see and whom you offended did not find it just to forgive you, how do you think that God, would forgive you?

But please, go check it out.

Dtruthspeaker:
Good. This is where I respectfully tell you to keep using your experiences to examine it, so that you won't say it is me who said it. So go check it out and see



If man that you see and whom you offended did not find it just to forgive you, how do you think that God, would forgive you?

But please, go check it out.

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If forgiveness and atonement were left to man alone, no one will be saved.

DeepSight:
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So we can continue.

I never stopped. I have responded to your rebuttal already

tctrills:
This by far the most intelligent of all your arguments and I will prove it to you with something you believe.
The president appoints the chief judge so by your argument the president can claim to be the chief judge.
Jesus Christ was appointed by His Father to judge the world, it would be incorrect and dishonest for the Father to claim He is the judge.
When you delegate your daughter to wash plate, you don't go telling people that you did the dishes.

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Surely you know that when we say Dangote built a refinery we dont mean that he lifted the bricks and pipes and mortar. Others did that. And yet we credit Dangote with building the refinery. Same way as with your own house. We say you built a house even when you only instructed others to do it. Same way we say a leader wages war when he only gives orders.

As to your argument that Jesus created the world, scripture says the world was created through him. There is a difference.

DeepSight:
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Surely you know that when we say Dangote built a refinery we dont mean that he lifted the bricks and pipes and mortar. Others did that. And yet we credit Dangote with building the refinery. Same way as with your own house. We say you built a house even when you only instructed others to do it. Same way we say a leader wages war when he only gives orders.

As to your argument that Jesus created the world, scripture says the world was created through him. There is a difference.

Ok, let's not dwell on the creation argument, let's call it another grey area. Let's only focus on the Saviour and the Judge argument.
If there is only one Saviour as Isaiah says and the new testament tells us the Saviour is Jesus Christ, I would love to hear your argument here.
Also, if Jehovah will judge all men and we are clearly told that the Father will judge no man, how is the Father Jehovah. Does appointing a judge make you a judge?
Let's limit the argument to the clearest examples so we are not all over the place.

One more, in the book of Zechariah we learn that Jehovah will be pierced. Who fulfilled that prophecy?
And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit[a] of grace and supplication. They will look on[b] me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.

One more thing, how do you understand these verses.
Isaiah 42:8
I am the Lord. That is my name. I will not let anyone else share my glory. I will not let people praise idols. I am the only one that they must praise.
Jehovah will not share His glory. No two people can share His name or title

DeepSight:
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If forgiveness and atonement were left to man alone, no one will be saved.

Now you see that God is Good that He even gives us a chance to be saved where no man will, via His Veto and Overriding Power.

And that is where His Laws of Atonement come in for God Will Always follow His Laws.

Just to remind you, I am not the only Christian who believes the Bible teaching that Jesus Christ is Jehovah.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YgkkLw5RkW4?si=8v1hvs3MZY3skHU5

tctrills:
Just to remind you, I am not the only Christian who believes the Bible teaching that Jesus Christ is Jehovah.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YgkkLw5RkW4?si=8v1hvs3MZY3skHU5

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Stop changing it, every Trinitarian believes this: what you said was that the Father is NOT the God of the Old Testament.

F

DeepSight:
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Stop changing it, every Trinitarian believes this: what you said was that the Father is NOT the God of the Old Testament.

This will be the second time I will be correcting this. I said the Father is not Jehovah. He is definitely the God of all times , old and new. He did not start being God in the new testament.
Again, the Father is not Jehovah. Jehovah is the name of Jesus Christ. The Father was God before, during, and after the old testament.
Please let me know if you understand. This is very important.
In the video I sent you, the man was making my very argument that Jesus Christ is Jehovah. He even had a cap that said so.

That said, remember, I asked you, how do you understand it when Jehovah says He will never share His glory with anybody.

tctrills:
F
This will be the second time I will be correcting this. I said the Father is not Jehovah. He is definitely the God of all times , old and new. He did not start being God in the new testament.
Again, the Father is not Jehovah. Jehovah is the name of Jesus Christ. The Father was God before, during, and after the old testament.
Please let me know if you understand. This is very important.
In the video I sent you, the man was making my very argument that Jesus Christ is Jehovah. He even had a cap that said so.

That said, remember, I asked you, how do you understand it when Jehovah says He will never share His glory with anybody.

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But how is it that you dont get that this contradicts you being a Trinitarian? Because if you believe in the Trinity then you must also believe that they all are they same entity anyway!

DeepSight:
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But how is it that you dont get that this contradicts you being a Trinitarian? Because if you believe in the Trinity then you must also believe that they all are they same entity anyway!

First of all, I am not arguing for any particular sect. I am only pointing to clear truths in the bible. In the video I sent you, the guy made the very same claims I did, that Jesus Christ is Jehovah and he backed it with some of the points I gave you.

Again, I ask, how do you understand the phase from the book of Isaiah; I will never share my glory with anybody?

Please go and read Revelation 22 well. You will see that the person speaking there is God, through an Angel (see verse 1 and 9).


Here is an update to my response.

Let's go to the first chapter of the book of Revelations, here it's as clear as daylight that Jesus Christ is the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

I will just copy and paste, no need to explain.

Verses 7& 8
Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Verses 10 to 18
I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;

13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.

14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;

15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.

16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.

17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

No explanation needed.

DeepSight:
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I must say this is a thorough and interesting argument and very well put forward, also emotionally compelling. Tctrills, someone has done your homework for you.

While I thank you for this, I must juxtapose what you have written against the justice of God. God, remember, is not just said to be an emotional loving father in the human sense, but also our creator and most importantly in this context, our judge. And God is said to be perfectly just, and divine justice would simply not be perfect if there are escape loops such as one person coming to bear the consequence of another persons sin. It is written in the bible itself that we will reap what we sow, and so it is clear that in terms of divine justice, there can be no escape hatch by bringing one person to bear the consequences for another person.

Your argument will only make sense if there is another god or deity who atone for sins without shedding of blood.
If u can point to another deity or supreme being that atone for sins without any self sacrifice, then I will agree we should doubt the divine justice of God.
As far as I'm aware the only supreme being that atone for sins is the God of the bible. No other deity atone for sins.
So there's nothing to compare.
Pls understand what atonement mean before replying.

DeepSight:
Another thing you should reflect upon is that such a practice would make God a bad parent in that it would amount to a kind of cheating and therefore fail to instill the required discipline in humans.

No matter how disciplined or how hard we try, we can never please God. It's just impossible.
God himself said the best of our effort is like filthy rags. That's how he describes our righteousness.
I think the problem is man thinks too highly of himself. He believes he has what it takes to compete with other living beings sch as supernatural ones and justify this by his effort and accomplishments.
Guy I hate to describe it to u, but man is one of the most irrelevant and weakest being in our universe.
Man and earth can disappear today, and the universe will not even notice. The rest of the universe will go on for billion of years not caring of our disappearance.
Universe doesn't need us, neither do God the creator of the universe. We are the ones that need the universe and God.
Our discipline is useless to God.
Thinking otherwise is absurd.

DeepSight:
Your argument is emotionally compelling but it ends there - it only appeals to the human side of things and does not speak to the matter of justice. Furthermore, it also fails because as an analogy it does not depict your child having committed a crime which deserves punishment, it only depicts him or her in an unfortunate position of distress without any sin and in need of rescue. Such an analogy is incurably bad when we are talking about sin and conseqence.

Your argument is weak and easily broken.
Now if you tell your child not to swim in the deep side of the swimming pool, but disobeys and swam to that end and start drowning; will u say it's her fault n should face the consequences or u will instantly think of saving her despite ignoring your warnings?

This is not about whose fault or facing consequences of your action. But it's the action every loving parent will take if her child is in distress irrespective of the causation of the distress itself. Salvation first, correction and discipline can only happen when the child is saved and alive.

DeepSight:
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Tctrills has argued that Abram was willing to do this because he knew Isaac would be resurrected. As an aside one may question the value and sacrifice of Jesus laying down his life since he knew he would be resurrected in a short three days. But I digress.

So if Jesus knew he would be brought back to live after death, then there was no human sacrifice. None.
QED.

DeepSight:
The point remains that it will forever be barbaric to ask a parent to kill his child. And in this instance what for? To make God happy? Does God drink human blood? What exactly for? What kind of God will make such a barbaric, pagan and contemptible demand? There can NEVER be anything holy or righteous about such a satanic command please.

It's like u don't get it. The relationship between God and Jesus isn't biological. Jesus is not the son of God in a biological sense rather the relationship is hypostatic.
Jesus is God in flesh, he is the visible reflection of the invisible God. They are the same BEING - they have the same ontology.

God didn't send someone to die for our sin, he did it himself. Your argument is only valid if Jesus Christ is a separate being from the Father. He's not. Jesus himself said so.

The problem here is poor knowledge of the foundational theology of the Christian faith. U need to understand our theology b4 u can critique it.

I will do my best to open your eyes the foundational knowledge of our faith. It's just that I have been very busy. But this few days I will try and keep up with u and others.

Tctrills, SIRTee15 -

Verses that contradict the idea that Jesus could have died for our sins.

Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their fathers; each is to die for his own sin (Deuteronomy 24:16).

Everyone will die for their own sin; whoever eats sour grapes—their own teeth will be set on edge (Jeremiah 31:30).

The one who sins is the one who will die (Ezekiel 18:4).

Cc: musicwriter

DeepSight:
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Surely you know that when we say Dangote built a refinery we dont mean that he lifted the bricks and pipes and mortar. Others did that. And yet we credit Dangote with building the refinery. Same way as with your own house. We say you built a house even when you only instructed others to do it. Same way we say a leader wages war when he only gives orders.

As to your argument that Jesus created the world, scripture says the world was created through him. There is a difference.

Scripture never said that. It is the Christian deception. Please read Isaiah 44 and 45 for clarity.....

tctrills:
Ok, let's not dwell on the creation argument, let's call it another grey area. Let's only focus on the Saviour and the Judge argument.
If there is only one Saviour as Isaiah says and the new testament tells us the Saviour is Jesus Christ, I would love to hear your argument here.
Also, if Jehovah will judge all men and we are clearly told that the Father will judge no man, how is the Father Jehovah. Does appointing a judge make you a judge?
Let's limit the argument to the clearest examples so we are not all over the place.

One more, in the book of Zechariah we learn that Jehovah will be pierced. Who fulfilled that prophecy?
And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit[a] of grace and supplication. They will look on[b] me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.

One more thing, how do you understand these verses.
Isaiah 42:8
I am the Lord. That is my name. I will not let anyone else share my glory. I will not let people praise idols. I am the only one that they must praise.
Jehovah will not share His glory. No two people can share His name or title

This your last quote from Isaiah destroys every other point you raised there.
Please can you show me where it says in the Tanakh that God will assume the form of a man and be sacrificed to himself in other for him to forgive humans....


And secondly you have to learn Hebrew to understand what is actually there, not the mistranslated versions you peddled up there...

Dtruthspeaker:
Now you see that God is Good that He even gives us a chance to be saved where no man will, via His Veto and Overriding Power.

And that is where His Laws of Atonement come in for God Will Always follow His Laws.

See 2nd chronicles 7:14

sonmvayina:
Scripture never said that. It is the Christian deception. Please read Isaiah 44 and 45 for clarity.....

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"1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made"

- John 1:1-3

SIRTee15:
Your argument will only make sense if there is another god or deity who atone for sins without shedding of blood.
If u can point to another deity or supreme being that atone for sins without any self sacrifice, then I will agree we should doubt the divine justice of God.
As far as I'm aware the only supreme being that atone for sins is the God of the bible. No other deity atone for sins.
So there's nothing to compare.
Pls understand what atonement mean before replying.



No matter how disciplined or how hard we try, we can never please God. It's just impossible.
God himself said the best of our effort is like filthy rags. That's how he describes our righteousness.
I think the problem is man thinks too highly of himself. He believes he has what it takes to compete with other living beings sch as supernatural ones and justify this by his effort and accomplishments.
Guy I hate to describe it to u, but man is one of the most irrelevant and weakest being in our universe.
Man and earth can disappear today, and the universe will not even notice. The rest of the universe will go on for billion of years not caring of our disappearance.
Universe doesn't need us, neither do God the creator of the universe. We are the ones that need the universe and God.
Our discipline is useless to God.
Thinking otherwise is absurd.


Your argument is weak and easily broken.
Now if you tell your child not to swim in the deep side of the swimming pool, but disobeys and swam to that end and start drowning; will u say it's her fault n should face the consequences or u will instantly think of saving her despite ignoring your warnings?

This is not about whose fault or facing consequences of your action. But it's the action every loving parent will take if her child is in distress irrespective of the causation of the distress itself. Salvation first, correction and discipline can only happen when the child is saved and alive.


So if Jesus knew he would be brought back to live after death, then there was no human sacrifice. None.
QED.



It's like u don't get it. The relationship between God and Jesus isn't biological. Jesus is not the son of God in a biological sense rather the relationship is hypostatic.
Jesus is God in flesh, he is the visible reflection of the invisible God. They are the same BEING - they have the same ontology.

God didn't send someone to die for our sin, he did it himself. Your argument is only valid if Jesus Christ is a separate being from the Father. He's not. Jesus himself said so.

The problem here is poor knowledge of the foundational theology of the Christian faith. U need to understand our theology b4 u can critique it.

I will do my best to open your eyes the foundational knowledge of our faith. It's just that I have been very busy. But this few days I will try and keep up with u and others.

This is what a loving God will say, see 2nd chronicles 7 :14. Not order a blooody human sacrifice. What does he need it for

DeepSight:
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"1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made"

- John 1:1-3

That is exactly what I am saying, you can only find such absurdity in the Christian so called new testament propaganda.. it is not something that is taught in the Tanakh.

sonmvayina:
This your last quote from Isaiah destroys every other point you raised there.
Please can you show me where it says in the Tanakh that God will assume the form of a man and be sacrificed to himself in other for him to forgive humans....


And secondly you have to learn Hebrew to understand what is actually there, not the mistranslated versions you peddled up there...

Oga if you understand Hebrew, show that I mistranslated anything, don't just assume. Also, I don't understand your point in the first paragraph. Please explain better.

Bro, this is a very lazy effort from you.

Verses that contradict the idea that Jesus could have died for our sins.

Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their fathers; each is to die for his own sin (Deuteronomy 24:16).
It did not say that God Himself can't die for our sins. And yes, your father a sinner like you is not qualified to die for your sins.

Everyone will die for their own sin; whoever eats sour grapes—their own teeth will be set on edge (Jeremiah 31:30).
Please how does this verse contradict Christ's atonement? We still believe that every man will be punished for his sin, you wouldn't suffer for the sin of another. But we also know that forgiveness comes to us through the sacrifice of Christ. Remember, it was Christ that paid the price of sin not man but God.

The one who sins is the one who will die (Ezekiel 18:4).
You are repeating the same thing and the above explanation covers these.
Remember, it was Jehovah (Jesus Christ) who gave these revelations to man. Also, if in the same bible, men used animals to stone for sin, how much better is the blood of God Himself.

sonmvayina:
See 2nd chronicles 7:14

Still the same thing The Law of Atonement said

DeepSight:
Tctrills, SIRTee15 -

Verses that contradict the idea that Jesus could have died for our sins.

Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their fathers; each is to die for his own sin (Deuteronomy 24:16).

Everyone will die for their own sin; whoever eats sour grapes—their own teeth will be set on edge (Jeremiah 31:30).

The one who sins is the one who will die (Ezekiel 18:4).

Cc: musicwriter

Is this not The Law?
Where is atonement in this verses if people are indeed supposed to pay for their sins?

Or do you not know the meaning of atonement? Let me help you

Atonement: reparation for an offense or injury

Dtruthspeaker:
Still the same thing The Law of Atonement said

That is exactly what a loving God would do. No ordering a human/animal sacrifice.
A contrite heart you will not spurn says the psalmist, "come, let us reason together,God says, though your heart be as black as coal, I can make them as white as snow.........No animal/human Sacrifice needed........,

sonmvayina:
That is exactly what a loving God would do. No ordering a human/animal sacrifice.
A contrite heart you will not spurn says the psalmist, "come, let us reason together,God says, though your heart be as black as coal, I can make them as white as snow.........No animal/human Sacrifice needed........,

You are not the one to dictate to God what He should accept as His atonement.

And The Laws of Atonement lists out what God wanted which Jesus fulfilled, so you cannot dictates to God

Dtruthspeaker:
You are not the one to dictate to God what He should accept as His atonement.

And The Laws of Atonement lists out what God wanted which Jesus fulfilled, so you cannot dictates to God

Show me where God ordered a human sacrifice. Take as much time as you like.

It must be from the prophets.

sonmvayina:
Show me where God ordered a human sacrifice. Take as much time as you like.

It must be from the prophets.

Now you have moved post.

Dtruthspeaker:
Now you have moved post.

Happy Easter Mon frere . With love, from your favorite pagan, Big Skeng

SkengRay:
Happy Easter Mon frere . With love, from your favorite pagan, Big Skeng

Happy Easter Skenno

Dtruthspeaker:
Happy Easter Skenno

Confam My Guy