Did Judah Really Betray Jesus Or Was He Just Playing His Part - Christianity Etc (2)

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Re: Did Judah Really Betray Jesus Or Was He Just Playing His Part by AntiChristian: 11:19am On Apr 07

Gabrielshow26:
😂Is that not what your Quran wants us to believe 👀?

The Quran even claimed all of Jesus' apostles/disciples as Muslims😂. So when you attack Paul, you are attacking your fellow Muslim. The disciples and apostles of Jesus were even mentioned as faithful in the Quran🤨. So even by your own book, your criticism of Paul fails! He is more faithful than you🥱 with his faithfulness, primordially recognized👀. After all, the Quran is Allah's Eternal speech 🥱.

Was Paul among the twelve disciples? Allah mentions the Hawariyoon who are the disciples of Jesus while he was on earth! Does Paul qualify?

I tire for this ignorance and chest beating o!

The Hawariyoon are the original disciples of Jesus mentioned in the Qur'an, and Paul does not qualify as one of them according to Islamic teachings.

Re: Did Judah Really Betray Jesus Or Was He Just Playing His Part by Gabrielshow26: 12:32pm On Apr 07

AntiChristian:
Was Paul among the twelve disciples? Allah mentions the Hawariyoon who are the disciples of Jesus while he was on earth! Does Paul qualify?

I tire for this ignorance and chest beating o!

The Hawariyoon are the original disciples of Jesus mentioned in the Qur'an, and Paul does not qualify as one of them according to Islamic teachings.

The term itself was used for companions and followers. It "necessarily" became specifically used for the twelve👀 due to SIN.

Now, irrespective of your sentiment 🥱 the Quran and your early scholars speak well of Paul and the followers of Jesus.
Let's take a look at this.

"O believers! Stand up for Allah, as Jesus, son of Mary, asked the disciples, ‘Who will stand up with me for Allah?’ The disciples (hawariyyun) replied, ‘We will stand up for Allah.’ Then a group from the Children of Israel believed, while another disbelieved. We then supported the believers against their enemies, so they prevailed.” [Quran, 61:42]"

As a sidenote, This "standing up to kill" is also mistakenly applied to christians here🥱.

"Verily, Allah has purchased of the believers their lives and their properties; for the price that theirs shall be the Paradise. They fight in Allah's Cause, so they kill (others) and are killed. It is a promise in truth which is binding on Him in the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel) and the Qur'an. And who is truer to his covenant than Allah? Then rejoice in the bargain which you have concluded"
We find no such thing in the injeel🤷. Allah goofed here as well.

Continuing on the main course, Let's have a look at another "praise" or promise upon Jesus' followers.

"Behold! Allah said: O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee SUPERIOR to those who reject faith, TO THE DAY OF RESURRECTION: Then shall ye all return unto Me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute." S. 3:55

" O ye who believe! Be ye helpers of Allah: as said Jesus the son of Mary to the Disciples, "Who will be my helpers to (the work of) Allah?" Said the Disciples, "We are Allah's helpers!" then a portion of the Children of Israel believed, and a portion disbelieved: But We gave power to those who believed against their enemies, AND THEY BECAME THE ONES THAT PREVAILED. S. 61:14"

Now, Let's look at commentary from Al-Qurtubi and what he says of Surah 61:14:🥱

It was said that THIS VERSE was revealed about the apostles of Jesus, may peace and blessing be upon him. Ibn Ishaq stated that of the apostles and disciples that Jesus sent (to preach) there were Peter AND PAUL who went to Rome; Andrew and Matthew who went to the land of the cannibals; Thomas who went to Babel in the eastern lands; Philip who went to Africa; John went to Dac-sos(?) which is the tribe to whom the sleepers of the cave belonged; Jacob went to Jerusalem; Bartholomew went to the lands of Arabia, specifically Al-Hijaz; Simon who went to the Barbarians; Judas and Barthas(?) who went to Alexandria and its surrounding regions.

Allah supported them (the apostles) with evidence so that they prevailed (thahirin) meaning they became the party with the upper hand. Just as it is said, "An object appeared on the wall" meaning it is clearly visible (alu-wat) on the wall. Allah, who is glorified and exalted, knows the truth better and to Him is the return and retreat.

According to these passages and your own Islamic scholar's commentary. Allah gave Christ’s followers the power to prevail over the disbelievers, and made them superior till the day of resurrection. Yet the ones that prevailed were the Apostles such as Paul, as well as his followers. This means that if the Quran is correct, then Paul’s message is the truth since it has become dominant and has prevailed over all other opposing messages.😂

The problem with Quran’s claims are that the Christian believers that prevailed over all were not Muslims🤦🏾‍♂️ and their message certainly wasn’t Islam🤔. Hence, either the true followers of Christ were vanquished, [/b]thus falsifying the Quran👀 which says that they would dominate🤷. Or, the Quran is [b]false since it contradicts the true message of Christ’s followers.

Now tell me did Allah either allow a false form of Christianity to prevail, or failed to grant Christ’s true believers dominance over those seeking to pervert the true teachings of Christ!🥱

Re: Did Judah Really Betray Jesus Or Was He Just Playing His Part by Kobojunkie: 2:37pm On Apr 07

AntiChristian:
✓ Was Paul among the twelve disciples? Allah mentions the Hawariyoon who are the disciples of Jesus while he was on earth! Does Paul qualify?

I tire for this ignorance and chest beating o!

The Hawariyoon are the original disciples of Jesus mentioned in the Qur'an, and Paul does not qualify as one of them according to Islamic teachings.

There is no such thing as original disciplines of Jesus Christ of Israel. There was the first 12 disciples, and then the many others who were also chosen by Jesus Christ of Israel before he left the earth; the book of Acts had their total at about 120 by the day of Pentecost, a couple of days after Jesus Christ of Israel's ascension. That number is suggested in the book of Revelation to have grown to about 144000 by the time the End of Days had come upon the land of Judean and the people of Israel with the destruction of Jerusalem(the center of power in the Land) and the Kingdom of God had finally arrived. 🥱🥱

Back to Paul, clearly, the Islamic prophet is written to have alluded to his opinions on issues where it is reported in Islamic text, "eyes have not seen, ears have not heard
...," in connection to the rewards which awaits believers in Islamic paradise. How can you bad mouth the same mana whose words are clearly quoted? 🥱

Re: Did Judah Really Betray Jesus Or Was He Just Playing His Part by AntiChristian: 8:35am On Apr 09

Kobojunkie:
There is no such thing as original disciplines of Jesus Christ of Israel. There was the first 12 disciples, and then the many others who were also chosen by Jesus Christ of Israel before he left the earth; the book of Acts had their total at about 120 by the day of Pentecost, a couple of days after Jesus Christ of Israel's ascension. That number is suggested in the book of Revelation to have grown to about 144000 by the time the End of Days had come upon the land of Judean and the people of Israel with the destruction of Jerusalem(the center of power in the Land) and the Kingdom of God had finally arrived. 🥱🥱

Back to Paul, clearly, the Islamic prophet is written to have alluded to his opinions on issues where it is reported in Islamic text, "eyes have not seen, ears have not heard
...," in connection to the rewards which awaits believers in Islamic paradise. How can you bad mouth the same mana whose words are clearly quoted? 🥱

This is your wonderful delulu! You just butt-in a conversation without appropriately grasping the context!

He said the Qur'an claimed all the apostles/disciples of Jesus are Muslims! And then claims the Muslims' critic of Paul should fail if Allah mentions the disciples of Jesus as Muslims. And then i corrected him.

Then how is this context relevant to your delulu?

Re: Did Judah Really Betray Jesus Or Was He Just Playing His Part by AntiChristian: 8:43am On Apr 09

Gabrielshow26:
The term itself was used for companions and followers. It "necessarily" became specifically used for the twelve👀 due to SIN.

Now, irrespective of your sentiment 🥱 the Quran and your early scholars speak well of Paul and the followers of Jesus.
Let's take a look at this.

"O believers! Stand up for Allah, as Jesus, son of Mary, asked the disciples, ‘Who will stand up with me for Allah?’ The disciples (hawariyyun) replied, ‘We will stand up for Allah.’ Then a group from the Children of Israel believed, while another disbelieved. We then supported the believers against their enemies, so they prevailed.” [Quran, 61:42]"

As a sidenote, This "standing up to kill" is also mistakenly applied to christians here🥱.

"Verily, Allah has purchased of the believers their lives and their properties; for the price that theirs shall be the Paradise. They fight in Allah's Cause, so they kill (others) and are killed. It is a promise in truth which is binding on Him in the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel) and the Qur'an. And who is truer to his covenant than Allah? Then rejoice in the bargain which you have concluded"
We find no such thing in the injeel🤷. Allah goofed here as well.

Continuing on the main course, Let's have a look at another "praise" or promise upon Jesus' followers.

"Behold! Allah said: O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee SUPERIOR to those who reject faith, TO THE DAY OF RESURRECTION: Then shall ye all return unto Me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute." S. 3:55

" O ye who believe! Be ye helpers of Allah: as said Jesus the son of Mary to the Disciples, "Who will be my helpers to (the work of) Allah?" Said the Disciples, "We are Allah's helpers!" then a portion of the Children of Israel believed, and a portion disbelieved: But We gave power to those who believed against their enemies, AND THEY BECAME THE ONES THAT PREVAILED. S. 61:14"

Now, Let's look at commentary from Al-Qurtubi and what he says of Surah 61:14:🥱

It was said that THIS VERSE was revealed about the apostles of Jesus, may peace and blessing be upon him. Ibn Ishaq stated that of the apostles and disciples that Jesus sent (to preach) there were Peter AND PAUL who went to Rome; Andrew and Matthew who went to the land of the cannibals; Thomas who went to Babel in the eastern lands; Philip who went to Africa; John went to Dac-sos(?) which is the tribe to whom the sleepers of the cave belonged; Jacob went to Jerusalem; Bartholomew went to the lands of Arabia, specifically Al-Hijaz; Simon who went to the Barbarians; Judas and Barthas(?) who went to Alexandria and its surrounding regions.

Allah supported them (the apostles) with evidence so that they prevailed (thahirin) meaning they became the party with the upper hand. Just as it is said, "An object appeared on the wall" meaning it is clearly visible (alu-wat) on the wall. Allah, who is glorified and exalted, knows the truth better and to Him is the return and retreat.

According to these passages and your own Islamic scholar's commentary. Allah gave Christ’s followers the power to prevail over the disbelievers, and made them superior till the day of resurrection. Yet the ones that prevailed were the Apostles such as Paul, as well as his followers. This means that if the Quran is correct, then Paul’s message is the truth since it has become dominant and has prevailed over all other opposing messages.😂

The problem with Quran’s claims are that the Christian believers that prevailed over all were not Muslims🤦🏾‍♂️ and their message certainly wasn’t Islam🤔. Hence, either the true followers of Christ were vanquished, [/b]thus falsifying the Quran👀 which says that they would dominate🤷. Or, the Quran is [b]false since it contradicts the true message of Christ’s followers.

Now tell me did Allah either allow a false form of Christianity to prevail, or failed to grant Christ’s true believers dominance over those seeking to pervert the true teachings of Christ!🥱

1. Misunderstanding of the Term "Hawariyyun" (Disciples)
The text claims the term "hawariyyun" (disciples) was used generally for companions and followers but "necessarily" became specifically used for the twelve due to sin. This is incorrect.

Islamic understanding: The Qur'an uses "hawariyyun" to refer to the disciples of Prophet Jesus (ʿĪsā, peace be upon him), without specifying exactly twelve or implying sinfulness. The Qur'an does not accuse the disciples of sin in this context. The number twelve is a Christian tradition, not an Islamic doctrinal point.

Qur'an 61:14 praises the disciples who stood firm with Jesus in Allah’s cause, showing their righteousness and support for the message.

2. The Qur'an’s View of Paul (Pawlus) and His Followers
The text suggests the Qur'an and early Islamic scholars praise Paul and his followers, implying Paul’s message is validated by Islam.

Islamic position: The Qur'an does not mention Paul (Pawlus) by name, nor does it endorse his teachings. Islamic scholars do not regard Paul as a prophet or a legitimate successor to Jesus. The Qur'an emphasizes the original message of Jesus, which aligns with strict monotheism and submission to Allah, not the later Christian doctrines introduced by Paul.

The Qur'an criticizes distortions introduced after Jesus, including the deification of Jesus and other innovations (Qur'an 5:72-75, 4:171).

3. Misinterpretation of Qur'an 9:111 and the Injil (Gospel)
The text claims the Qur'an says believers fight and kill in Allah’s cause, and that this is promised in the Taurat, Injil, and Qur'an, but "we find no such thing in the Injil," implying Allah erred.

Islamic clarification: The Qur'an states in 9:111 that Allah has made a covenant with the believers about fighting in His cause, and this covenant is true and binding. This is a divine promise, not an error.

The reference to the Taurat and Injil here means the original revelations given to Moses and Jesus, not the current versions of these scriptures, which Muslims believe have been altered or corrupted over time.

The Qur'an does not claim the current Christian Bible supports fighting in Allah’s cause; rather, it affirms the original divine scriptures contained such promises.

4. Qur'an 3:55 and 61:14 – Superiority of Jesus’ Followers
The text quotes these verses to claim that Jesus’ followers were promised superiority until the Day of Resurrection, then argues that since the dominant Christianity today is not Islamic, the Qur'an is false.

Islamic understanding: The "followers of Jesus" mentioned in the Qur'an are those who truly believed in his message as a prophet of Allah, not those who later distorted it.

The Qur'an distinguishes between true believers and those who disbelieved or distorted the message (Qur'an 3:55, 61:14).

The "superiority" refers to spiritual and moral standing, not necessarily worldly dominance or political power.

The fact that many Christians today do not follow the pure monotheistic message of Jesus does not invalidate the Qur'an’s promise; rather, it reflects human free will and historical developments.

5. Commentary from Al-Qurtubi and the Apostles
The text cites Al-Qurtubi’s commentary listing apostles including Paul, implying Islamic acceptance of Paul as a true apostle.

Islamic scholarship: Classical scholars like Al-Qurtubi mention apostles known from Christian tradition for historical context, but this does not mean endorsement of all their teachings.

Paul is not considered an apostle or prophet in Islam; his teachings are viewed as later innovations.

6. The False Dilemma: Either the Qur'an is False or Paul’s Message is True
The text argues that since Paul’s form of Christianity prevailed and is not Islam, either the Qur'an is false or Allah allowed false Christianity to prevail.

Islamic response: Allah’s wisdom includes allowing human free will and test through trials. The Qur'an acknowledges that falsehood may appear dominant temporarily (Qur'an 17:81, 41:30).

The ultimate victory promised in the Qur'an is spiritual and eschatological, not necessarily immediate worldly dominance.

The Qur'an calls Muslims to follow the true message of all prophets, including Jesus, and to avoid distortions.

Let's summarize the points here:
1. The Qur'an honors the disciples of Jesus who truly believed and stood firm in Allah’s cause, without endorsing later distortions or innovations.

2. Paul is not recognized in Islam as a prophet or legitimate apostle; his teachings are seen as deviations from Jesus’ original message.

3. The Qur'an’s references to the Taurat and Injil pertain to the original revealed scriptures, not the altered versions known today.

4. The promise of superiority for Jesus’ true followers is spiritual and eschatological, not necessarily reflected in worldly dominance.

5. Allah’s wisdom allows for tests and trials, and the prevalence of falsehood at times does not negate divine truth or the Qur'an’s authenticity.

6. Muslims are called to follow the Qur'an and Sunnah as the final and preserved guidance, which confirms and corrects previous revelations.

Re: Did Judah Really Betray Jesus Or Was He Just Playing His Part by Kobojunkie: 3:27pm On Apr 09

AntiChristian:
✓ This is your wonderful delulu! You just butt-in a conversation without appropriately grasping the context!
He said the Qur'an claimed all the apostles/disciples of Jesus are Muslims! And then claims the Muslims' critic of Paul should fail if Allah mentions the disciples of Jesus as Muslims. And then i corrected him.
Then how is this context relevant to your delulu?

You corrected him? 🤣🤣🤣🤣

There is no delulu greater than religion to those who have it. 🤣🤣🤣🤣

Re: Did Judah Really Betray Jesus Or Was He Just Playing His Part by AntiChristian: 4:45am On Apr 10

Kobojunkie:
You corrected him? 🤣🤣🤣🤣

There is no delulu greater than religion to those who have it. 🤣🤣🤣🤣

Busybody!

Re: Did Judah Really Betray Jesus Or Was He Just Playing His Part by Kobojunkie: 8:14pm On Apr 10

AntiChristian:
→Busybody!

Busybody for calling out your every Taqiyyah I can find, right? 🤣🤣🤣🤣

1 Like

Re: Did Judah Really Betray Jesus Or Was He Just Playing His Part by AntiChristian: 2:26am On Apr 11

Kobojunkie:
Busybody for calling out your every Taqiyyah I can find, right? 🤣🤣🤣🤣

Where is the Taqiya? You're the unrepentant liar here!

Re: Did Judah Really Betray Jesus Or Was He Just Playing His Part by Kobojunkie: 7:15am On Apr 11

AntiChristian:
✓ Where is the Taqiya? You're the unrepentant liar here!

All of my responses to you have been to correct lies posted by your person. If I asked you to point to even one lie from me so far, can you do that? 🥱🥱🥱

1 Like 1 Share

Re: Did Judah Really Betray Jesus Or Was He Just Playing His Part by AntiChristian: 11:35am On Apr 13

Kobojunkie:
All of my responses to you have been to correct lies posted by your person. If I asked you to point to even one lie from me so far, can you do that? 🥱🥱🥱

Where are the lies you corrected?

Don't tell me your butt-in was also a correction?

Re: Did Judah Really Betray Jesus Or Was He Just Playing His Part by Kobojunkie: 6:13pm On Apr 13

AntiChristian:
➜Where are the lies you corrected? Don't tell me your butt-in was also a correction?

Every single one of the claims you made regarding the content of the Bible here is a lie intended to be seen as truth. Even your claims regarding the content of the Quran follow the same pattern of deceit. So, yeah, correction has always been my goal with you, or at least to clarify the facts. 😒

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Re: Did Judah Really Betray Jesus Or Was He Just Playing His Part by AntiChristian: 5:09am On Apr 14

Kobojunkie:
Every single one of the claims you made regarding the content of the Bible here is a lie intended to be seen as truth. Even your claims regarding the content of the Quran follow the same pattern of deceit. So, yeah, correction has always been my goal with you, or at least to clarify the facts. 😒

List 5 of the latest lies among the claims I made here?

Re: Did Judah Really Betray Jesus Or Was He Just Playing His Part by Kobojunkie: 5:17am On Apr 14

AntiChristian:
➜List 5 of the latest lies among the claims I made here?

Pick any 5 of your posts that contain Biblical or Quranic references or even basic religious notions of yours and you are close to having the 5 answers you seek. 😒😒

Re: Did Judah Really Betray Jesus Or Was He Just Playing His Part by AntiChristian: 5:28am On Apr 14

Kobojunkie:
Pick any 5 of your posts that contain Biblical or Quranic references or even basic religious notions of yours and you are close to having the 5 answers you seek. 😒😒

Just admit you are the liar!

Re: Did Judah Really Betray Jesus Or Was He Just Playing His Part by Kobojunkie: 5:30am On Apr 14

AntiChristian:
✓ Just admit you are the liar!

I see you are still at these games of yours. 🥱🥱

Re: Did Judah Really Betray Jesus Or Was He Just Playing His Part by AntiChristian: 11:56am On Apr 14

Kobojunkie:
I see you are still at these games of yours. 🥱🥱

See one of your lies below!

Kobojunkie:
There is no such thing as original disciplines of Jesus Christ of Israel. There was the first 12 disciples, and then the many others who were also chosen by Jesus Christ of Israel before he left the earth; the book of Acts had their total at about 120 by the day of Pentecost, a couple of days after Jesus Christ of Israel's ascension. That number is suggested in the book of Revelation to have grown to about 144000 by the time the End of Days had come upon the land of Judean and the people of Israel with the destruction of Jerusalem(the center of power in the Land) and the Kingdom of God had finally arrived. 🥱🥱

Back to Paul, clearly, the Islamic prophet is written to have alluded to his opinions on issues where it is reported in Islamic text, "eyes have not seen, ears have not heard
...," in connection to the rewards which awaits believers in Islamic paradise. How can you bad mouth the same mana whose words are clearly quoted? 🥱

Jesus Sends Out the Twelve in Matthew 10:1-5

Jesus called his twelve disciples to him and gave them authority to drive out impure spirits and to heal every disease and sickness.

These are the names of the twelve apostles: first, Simon (who is called Peter) and his brother Andrew; James son of Zebedee, and his brother John; Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus; Simon the Zealot and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed him.

These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions:....

Was Paul included? Are these not the original disciples?

Dey lie dey go?.

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