₦airaland Forum

Being moral without salvation in Christ does not make one righteous in the sight of God, but being saved in Christ Jesus makes one righteous: with morality as part of the evidences of such a person's salvation.

Any unsaved person that is moral may have rewards, but such rewards will only be on earth and is useless in eternity. But any believer in Christ Jesus who is moral, has his morality tied to the grace of Jesus Christ, and will be rewarded on earth and in eternity with God.

ebubeson:
Being moral without salvation in Christ does not make one righteous in the sight of God, but being saved in Christ Jesus makes one righteous: with morality as part of the evidences of such a person's salvation.

Any unsaved person that is moral may have rewards, but such rewards will only be on earth and is useless in eternity. But any believer in Christ Jesus who is moral, has his morality tied to the grace of Jesus Christ, and will be rewarded on earth and in eternity with God.

You are partially wrong.

Being born again is about being moral. However, a person who is moral without having God has 2 major guilts standing against him

1) guilt of former wrongdoings for every person must do wrongs before they decided to live morally.

2) guilty of morality which in their opinion was not immoral.

Lordreed, I saw this the other day and thought about you would be the best person to have watch this. I have seen those of you who claim to be atheist argue about how your morality is just as valid as any other morality touted by the other religious folks. I think the guest on Triggernometry this past week, sort of argues well against that claim.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfVy9hUKa6c?si=OLpd1gn6vKmYES44

Morality is inbuilt in all humans it's like a property we inherited at birth but faith in God and Christ fine-tuned it.

How?

As humans we find it hard to do what is bad if we're not under pressure but it becomes harder when we know how negatively it's going to affect our future.

A girl may feel irritated sleeping with a boy/man who has not paid her dowry but much more disgusting to sleep with a man who already has a wife.

WHY?

Because she just doesn't want to sleep around jumping from one bed to another but now she has a solid reason to say no to someone's else husband.

In the same way we may hate doing the wrong thing but hate it more when we know the consequences!

Kobojunkie:
Lordreed, I saw this the other day and thought about you would be the best person to have watch this. I have seen those of you who claim to be atheist argue about how your morality is just as valid as any other morality touted by the other religious folks. I think the guest on Triggernometry this past week, sort of argues well against that claim.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfVy9hUKa6c?si=OLpd1gn6vKmYES44

45 seconds in and I am already lauging out loud. He sees no reason why women should vote??!! This is the person you think has great points? Men, what are you believers turning into?? Are all of you thinking to become some version of the Taliban??!!

Kobojunkie:
Lordreed, I saw this the other day and thought about you would be the best person to have watch this. I have seen those of you who claim to be atheist argue about how your morality is just as valid as any other morality touted by the other religious folks. I think the guest on Triggernometry this past week, sort of argues well against that claim.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfVy9hUKa6c?si=OLpd1gn6vKmYES44

5mins 35secs and I am not sure I can stand to watch the whole thing. The guy just strawmans everything and makes statements with nothing backing it. Is there any particular portion you want me to pay attention too because I cannot honestly stand listening to this guy for 1hr 30mins.

LordReed:
➜ 5mins 35secs and I am not sure I can stand to watch the whole thing. The guy just strawmans everything and makes statements with nothing backing it. Is there any particular portion you want me to pay attention too because I cannot honestly stand listening to this guy for 1hr 30mins.

First, your assumptions are completely wrong! Second, you have to be willing to put aside your ego --- die to your ego-- before you can be able to hear and process the debate without bias. 🤔

Kobojunkie:
First, your assumptions are completely wrong! Second, you have to be willing to put aside your ego --- die to your ego-- before you can be able to hear and process the debate without bias. 🤔

Bro! LoLz! What yeye ego when someone says he wants women to loose the ability to vote!!!

LordReed:
➜Bro! LoLz! What yeye ego when someone says he wants women to loose the ability to vote!!!

Is that all you heard him say in that entire discussion? 🤔

Kobojunkie:
Is that all you heard him say in that entire discussion? 🤔

Plus all his strawman nonsense is all I need to know I would not enjoying listening to such claptrap but if there is any particular portion you want me to listen to I would stomach it for long enough. The guy is full of BS and I doubt he has anything useful for me.

LordReed:
➜ Plus all his strawman nonsense is all I need to know I would not enjoying listening to such claptrap but if there is any particular portion you want me to listen to I would stomach it for long enough. The guy is full of BS and I doubt he has anything useful for me.

Strawman? Recall I told you to bury your ego somewhere before engaging. You know why? If you had, you would have realized, as the host of the shows did, that the guy was not strawmanning, but literally handing them back their own argument all throughout the discussion. 🤔

Anyways, I was more interested in what he had to say on the issue of morality. I am particularly interested in his insistence that a foundation has to exist to back whatever morality you claim. The "I am moral because I say or think so," argument, which is typically what you often came back with in your debates on morals. 🤔

Here's another video where the same guy stresses the need for a backing for any position one takes on issues regarding morality and rights.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOykhvDCEuM?si=oyFWpeB3nekw9MZH

Kobojunkie:
Strawman? Recall I told you to bury your ego somewhere before engaging. You know why? If you had, you would have realized, as the host of the shows did, that the guy was not strawmanning, but literally handing them back their own argument all throughout the discussion. 🤔

Anyways, I was more interested in what he had to say on the issue of morality. I am particularly interested in his insistence that a foundation has to exist to back whatever morality you claim. The "I am moral because I say or think so," argument, which is typically what you often came back with in your debates on morals. 🤔

Here's another video where the same guy stresses the need for a backing for any position one takes on issues regarding morality and rights.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOykhvDCEuM?si=oyFWpeB3nekw9MZH

All morality is based on the cogitations of conscious thinking beings. Even in your mythology based religion, your imaginary god, who you think gives you morality, is supposedly a conscious thinking being. It is inescapable.

LordReed:
➜All morality is based on the cogitations of conscious thinking beings. Even in your mythology based religion, your imaginary god, who you think gives you morality, is supposedly a conscious thinking being. It is inescapable.[size=8pt][/size]

That is not necessarily true. You can argue that we each have opinions regarding morality, and those amount to nothing in the end. However, a moral opinion gains substance only when a meaningful group adopts it as a moral standard. Your private moral opinion is worthless if you don't have others who share and sign on to the same opinion that you have. This isn't about mythology or religion or any of those other things you are on there about. 🤔

Kobojunkie:
That is not necessarily true. You can argue that we each have opinions regarding morality, and those amount to nothing in the end. However, a moral opinion gains substance only when a meaningful group adopts it as a moral standard. Your private moral opinion is worthless if you don't have others who share and sign on to the same opinion that you have. This isn't about mythology or religion or any of those other things you are on there about. 🤔

Well this doesn't counter what I said, it is still all conscious thinking beings.

LordReed:
➜Well this doesn't counter what I said, it is still all conscious thinking beings.

My intention was not to counter that at all. Just wanting you to see how flawed your arguments have been on the matter to this point. 🤔

Kobojunkie:
My intention was not to counter that at all. Just wanting you to see how flawed your arguments have been on the matter to this point. 🤔

But you didn't show any flaw. The only way is to show that morality exists outside of thinking conscious beings.

LordReed:
All morality is based on the cogitations of conscious thinking beings. Even in your mythology based religion, your imaginary god, who you think gives you morality, is supposedly a conscious thinking being. It is inescapable.

Better leave Yahweh on this matter oh. Before he sends a bear to tear you to pieces.

DeepSight:
Better leave Yahweh on this matter oh. Before he sends a bear to tear you to pieces.

I am gonna avoid any wilderness for now. LoLz.

DeepSight:
Better leave Yahweh on this matter oh. Before he sends a bear to tear you to pieces.

Yahweh (Jehovah) will never ever do that to someone whose ancestors had no business with Him!
The Israelite children who were killed by bears had been warned not to provoke the God of their forefathers Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in fact it was written that Jehovah (Yahweh) will send wild beast to devour them if they go against what He commanded them!

I will send the wild animals of the field among you, and they will bereave you of children and annihilate your domestic animals and reduce your numbers, and your roads will be deserted. Leviticus 26:22

They will be exhausted from hunger And eaten up by burning fever and bitter destruction. I will send the teeth of beasts against them And the venom of reptiles of the dust. Deuteronomy 32:24

"I will send against you famine and vicious wild beasts, and they will bereave you of children. Pestilence and bloodshed will overwhelm you, and I will bring a sword against you. I, Jehovah, have spoken.’” Ezekiel 5:17

All the Israelites knew these because it's written in God's law that they should TEACH their children all the laws of God! Deuteronomy 6:4-9

So when Elijah angrily cursed the children mocking him and wild beasts appeared from nowhere to devour the children their Israelite parents will remember the warning from the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob!😟

MaxInDHouse:
Yahweh (Jehovah) will never ever do that to someone whose ancestors had no business with Him!
The Israelite children who were killed by bears had been warned not to provoke the God of their forefathers Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in fact it was written that Jehovah (Yahweh) will send wild beast to devour them if they go against what He commanded them!

I will send the wild animals of the field among you, and they will bereave you of children and annihilate your domestic animals and reduce your numbers, and your roads will be deserted. Leviticus 26:22

They will be exhausted from hunger And eaten up by burning fever and bitter destruction. I will send the teeth of beasts against them And the venom of reptiles of the dust. Deuteronomy 32:24

"I will send against you famine and vicious wild beasts, and they will bereave you of children. Pestilence and bloodshed will overwhelm you, and I will bring a sword against you. I, Jehovah, have spoken.’” Ezekiel 5:17

All the Israelites knew these because it's written in God's law that they should TEACH their children all the laws of God! Deuteronomy 6:4-9

So when Elijah angrily cursed the children mocking him and wild beasts appeared from nowhere to devour the children their Israelite parents will remember the warning from the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob!😟

But why is he so vicious and violent?

LordReed:
I am gonna avoid any wilderness for now. LoLz.

Better for you my friend.
But do you accept that the "cogitations of thinking beings" could arrive at morally wrong conclusions, principles and suppositions.

DeepSight:
But why is he so vicious and violent?

Because He wants His worshipers to know what will happen when His own rulership begins on planet earth as at that time people will die without been attacked by beasts or angry mob rather it's angels that will be killing defaulters who deliberately chose to go against His orders unlike today that some people can steal, rob or rape and continue living angels will just strike the criminal to death at the spot during that time we will know what killed such a person because by then death is no more! Isaiah 25:8
So when He said:

"You must be holy" Leviticus 11:45

He wasn't talking about this system of things rather when His government rules the entire earth whoever refuses to be holy will die without being mourned. Isaiah 65:20; Jeremiah 25:33

Kobojunkie:
Is that all you heard him say in that entire discussion? 🤔

You are looking for fairness from reed? Atiku, might be fairer than Reed

Reed will always dodge the part that is against him and must hang to anything that he can spin around to make your point look bad.

DeepSight:
Better for you my friend.
But do you accept that the "cogitations of thinking beings" could arrive at morally wrong conclusions, principles and suppositions.

As a matter of value calls yes they can. Which is why moral positions should continually be scrutinised.

Dtruthspeaker:
You are looking for fairness from reed? Atiku, might be fairer than Reed

Reed will always dodge the part that is against him and must hang to anything that he can spin around to make your point look bad.

LoLz. I literally asked him which portion he wanted me to focus on because I am ready to discuss reasonably. Unlike you who just makes assertions and can't be reasoned with.

LordReed:
✓ But you didn't show any flaw. The only way is to show that morality exists outside of thinking conscious beings.

You aren't paying attention at all! I am not the least concerned about the source. As long as you are arguing against the consensus, your private delusions regarding morality do not matter or mean anything in the end. You cannot REASONABLY discuss moral issues if what you are bringing to the table are no better than brain farts..." I think it therefore it is right,"s.

Kobojunkie:
You aren't paying attention at all! I am not the least concerned about the source. As long as you are arguing against the consensus, your private delusions regarding morality do not matter or mean anything in the end. You cannot REASONABLY discuss moral issues if what you are bringing to the table are no better than brain farts..." I think it therefore it is right,"s.

Bro that's all we have. You might believe the brain farts of some Ancient Hebrews are superior to your own own but it is all we have.

LordReed:
As a matter of value calls yes they can. Which is why moral positions should continually be scrutinised.

Scrutinized with what standards? This betrays the idea that morality is subjective. It concedes that there are standards outside the subjective mind which morality should be scrutinized against.

DeepSight:
Scrutinized with what standards? This betrays the idea that morality is subjective. It concedes that there are standards outside the subjective mind which morality should be scrutinized against.

human beings evolve for better and worse

some societies consider corporal punishment moral, others think it is barbarity
some societies frown on adultery, others are polyamorous
is it immoral for a completely broke and starving person to steal food from a supermarket to feed himself?
is it immoral fro me to deny my employees their salary because of a clause in their contract?

GloriousGbola:
human beings evolve for better and worse

some societies consider corporal punishment moral, others think it is barbarity
some societies frown on adultery, others are polyamorous
is it immoral for a completely broke and starving person to steal food from a supermarket to feed himself?
is it immoral fro me to deny my employees their salary because of a clause in their contract?

I subscribe more to what I call relative and / or situational morality, and that addresses the scenario of the bold.

Beyond this, I think nature and conscience have a rhythm that set a certain human standard in our collective minds which gives us to know that certain things are objectively evil, such as raping a two year old or murdering your neighbor or punishing an innocent person for a crime they did not commit. If morality were subjective, it would mean that any of these things are perfectly fine so long as the person doing them believes they are fine. That is pure subjectivity. They are fine for him.

And if another person disagrees then the person with superior might will have his way, and that simply amounts to might is right.

DeepSight:
I subscribe more to what I call relative and / or situational morality, and that addresses the scenario of the bold.

Beyond this, I think nature and conscience have a rhythm that set a certain human standard in our collective minds which gives us to know that certain things are objectively evil, such as raping a two year old or murdering your neighbor or punishing an innocent person for a crime they did not commit. If morality were subjective, it would mean that any of these things are perfectly fine so long as the person doing them believes they are fine. That is pure subjectivity. They are fine for him.

And if another person disagrees then the person with superior might will have his way, and that simply amounts to might is right.

Fagin from oliver twist.
the man shaped the morality of all the lost kids under his wing
we have the same thing going on in nigeria today where yahoo schools are teaching children that it is fine to steal from he old, the weak, other children. a human standard where it is acceptable to destroy peoples lives in being set

the same standard was set with boko haram who have now transitioned to amoral bandits who have no qualms about casual acts of evil

GloriousGbola:
Fagin from oliver twist.
the man shaped the morality of all the lost kids under his wing
we have the same thing going on in nigeria today where yahoo schools are teaching children that it is fine to steal from he old, the weak, other children. a human standard where it is acceptable to destroy peoples lives in being set

the same standard was set with boko haram who have now transitioned to amoral bandits who have no qualms about casual acts of evil

In my view these people have stepped out of the natural human standard which resonates in the faculty of conscience.