From Obidient To Disobidient? - Politics (2)

From Obidient To Disobidient? - Politics (2) - Nairaland

Nairaland Forum › Nairaland General › Politics › From Obidient To Disobidient? (1262 Views)

Re: From Obidient To Disobidient? by Predictor3: 8:53pm On Jan 01

Mbanda:
Lol this one wants Obi to remain in LP after tinibu don use his tribesmen destroy the party kpatakpata.

Governors, senators, and political leaders have been defecting to APC, we didn't see you open any thread in condemnation of the defections that has been happening in Nigeria for more than two years now.

Obi don defect, now you don find your lost voice.

Hypocrite!

Why should obi remain in LP when he couldn't win on his own with Lp? He must go and deputize Atiku for him to at least have a fighting chance to get close to federal power. Yes

Re: From Obidient To Disobidient? by kayjordan(op): 9:20pm On Jan 01

I have a fair understanding of the world at large including the UK.

The AI evidence you've provided harmonizes my view and your view. It's true that churches are being converted to multi-purpose facilities across the UK and Europe.

It is also true that Nigerians are at the basic stage of understanding and the UK are at stage above intermediary understanding - given your Child-Man analogy.

You are also correct that Nigerians prefer to believe and not seek knowledge.

The AI overview evidence you've provided - shows a summary of the religious level of the British people. The UK is multi racial - some people may have dropped the bible and some are still reading the Bible as I initially noted in my previous comment.

Many blacks in the UK are part of the UK population and they were born into cultures that instilled bible reading and worship into their lives - they may not be active members in churches as cited in your evidence, but they probably do private bible readings at home or read devotionals.

Schools in the UK are mantaining the Religious Knowledge in their curriculums to encourage the religious education. So students are encouraged to read the bible texts.

Young people in the UK are seeking meaning of the world through bible readings. Some find solace and peace in spirituality for mental health reasons.

Multi-evidence brings sufficiency of facts. An AI overview is a good summary but not a detailed one.

Diverse reports on religiosity in the UK will give you a full understanding of what's really happening.

From your local experience, you've probably witnessed low church attendance - but you haven't experienced what happens behind closed doors? - only reports can tell us that - or one-on-one conversations.

Also note that, reading the bible and attending church are two separate activities. Church attendance for people is socially stimulating - therefore encouraging attendance regardless the numbers. For others - church attendance is socially draining due to their introverted nature - therefore encouraging low church attendance but encouraging online worship if necessary.

Bibles are still sold in the UK in book stores and online stores including devotionals.

So, bible reading in the UK is still active regardless if Europe is neglecting the culture. The fact remains - the bible reading culture exist 'voluntarily' or through 'enforcement' as cited in your evidence.

Therefore the bible reading culture is still significant.

budaatum:
I doubt you know how little Brits read the Bible. It's so bad, even churches are being converted to homes and mosques. But there's really no point us blindly arguing since we can easily consider facts, which I include below for your consideration.

And I never said "isn't sufficient for mental development", though it or any book alone is clearly not sufficient for mental development, as Christ himself said.

Nigeria is currently at a stage that Paul would describe as "When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child", while I would propose to you that UK is at the "When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me" stage.

It's why we Nigerians believe, instead of seaking to actually know. We are just not there in sufficient numbers yet, but will get there in due time.

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Re: From Obidient To Disobidient? by budaatum: 10:50pm On Jan 01

kayjordan:
The UK is multi racial - some people may have dropped the bible and some are still reading the Bible as I initially noted in my previous comment.

First thank you. You are appreciated.

A fast growing religion in UK is Islam, which is due to the influx of immigrants, and not the natives converting. Pentecostal Christianity is also growing, and not because the locals are leaving the Church of England to go there, but for the same reason Islam is growing. Immigrants. Below is a map of Pentecostal churches in the same area I posted for libraries. Most are Nigerian congregation churches.

kayjordan:
Many blacks in the UK are part of the UK population and they were born into cultures that instilled bible reading and worship into their lives - they may not be active members in churches as cited in your evidence, but they probably do private bible readings at home or read devotionals.

Most churches are indeed full of black migrants, and would be dead without them.

My ma's church (of England) I sometimes go to is full of West Indian and Africans today, but investigate and you'd hear how they used to be referred to the Pentecostal church down the road as miss roads.

kayjordan:
Schools in the UK are mantaining the Religious Knowledge in their curriculums to encourage the religious education. So students are encouraged to read the bible texts.

Now, this. You'd think religion education in UK is like in Nigeria, but it isn't. No teacher can stand in front of a class of students and preach god in a UK school. Not even in a Catholic or Muslim school can they do that, as the curriculum for religious education in UK forces the imparting of knowledge of all major religions, as in their history, mode of worship, main doctrines, past atrocities, etc.

In fact, I asked my child for this, and he told me one of his teachers is a priest. She does not teach him religious knowledge however. She is his English teacher. And no. They do not read the Bible in school, and you should have in fact seen the look on his face when I suggested they might.

kayjordan:
Young people in the UK are seeking meaning of the world through bible readings.

No they are not. But I do not expect you to take my word for it.

One lament amongst the Nigerian parents in my mother's church and the CoE in general, is that children leave the church after they graduate from university. The parents can not seem to understand that while they are telling their children that God created everything in six days and rested, their teachers are teaching them the earth is almost 14 billion years old and has been evolving with nothing to do with any gods. And the schools arrange trips to the British Museum to go show them fossils of dinosaurs.

What kid, pray tell, will refuse what they see with their own eyes and choose to believe in fairy tales in a book?

kayjordan:
Diverse reports on religiosity in the UK will give you a full understanding of what's really happening.

only reports can tell us that - or one-on-one conversations...

You see the first part of your above? It actually irritates me when people say that, which they tend to do when AI disagrees with them, because they think the AI I present is some form of evidence, when I am presenting it as a pointer to research you should go and do. It after all does include links to reports and studies done on the topic, so why not bother researching them, or rather, asking and knocking and seeking for knowledge and data and information for oneself?

I've included some links to reports to assist you.

kayjordan:
Also note that, reading the bible and attending church are two separate activities.

One of the links below is to a census report where it specifically says "A person’s religion is self-defined regardless of whether they practise their religion or not". Basically, they may have never been to church apart from for a wedding or a funeral but still identify as Christians. Most have definitely not read the Bible.

In fact, Kay, my experience has shown that even most Nigerian Christians have not read the bible! Though I must define my own 'read', which is start at page one and go page by page to the very end, as opposed to the random dipping done in churches.

Reading, on the whole, is just about dying, I'd say, because there's just far too much to distract from it these days.

On that note, I'll stop right here for now so I can leave you space to consume the links below.

And remember. The map below is Pentecostal churches that are attended mostly by we black African migrants.

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/constituency-data-religion/

https://www.kcl.ac.uk/news/god-heaven-and-hell-and-life-after-death-data-reveals-uks-low-religious-belief-compared-with-other-nations

https://humanists.uk/2025/03/26/non-religious-outnumber-christians-in-uk-pew-study/

https://www.brin.ac.uk/

https://www.secularism.org.uk/news/2025/07/christians-a-minority-in-the-uk-newly-published-data-reveals

Re: From Obidient To Disobidient? by kayjordan(op): 10:50am On Jan 02

It's good that you're repeated your point. And I will also repeat that I'm being nasty to those who deserve it - not Peter Obi - but his Obidients.

Peter Obi has been quite professional in his pursuit even though sometimes, he has to wear the cap of a Politician when needed.

But the Obidients (Light weight papers), that can easily be blown by wind (Gossips) is my MAJOR CONCERN in this argument.

Apapa, Abure, Labour Party and Peter Obi are concerns of the Labour party, not APC or any other party. What they do, is their own making and mistake - no one else's.

I still repeat - if the Ruling party or other minority parties are jumping from pillar to post, i will not call them out because it's BUSINESS.

If supporters of APC or other minority parties are making a noise, I will not call them out yet - but if supporters of Labour party are making a noise - i will call them out simply because - they make THE LOUDEST NOISE from an empty vessel.

Mbanda:
The fact remains that, you are being "hypocritical" not nasty.

You saw the rubbish apapa (a yoruba man) was doing with the leadership of LP you didn't say anything because, you were blind and dumb when all the apapa nonsense were happening.

You saw and heard about many defections from Other political parties to APC you still remained quite waiting for Obi to defect. And immediately Obi did what other political leaders has been doing, you now remember its time for you to swing into action and you want us to see your actions as being " nasty"?

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Re: From Obidient To Disobidient? by kayjordan(op): 10:55am On Jan 02

You're welcome.

It's good to know that you've identified a socio-cultural effect of migrants on churches in the UK.

The paragraph I wrote on Religious education is not Preaching - but rather Teaching bible stories. You cannot teach bible stories, history as you cited without introducing bible texts to the students.

The paragraph on seeking meaning of the world through the bible I quoted: you have denied such fact, citing that youngsters prefer science over bible fairy-tale - Some people believe in science, some believe in God. I believe in Science; you believe in one of the two or both.

....

You are taught to believe in science. As you grow (Given your Child-Man Analogy earlier), you choose which path to go as an adult.

So if some youngsters are seeking meaning of life through God, it is probably an undisputed fact.

The Author of the Big Bang Theory was a Clergyman.

....

You noted your regular irritation to A.I drama that you have probably experienced with others. Likely reasons people disagree with AI is because of it's disclaimer "AI overview makes mistakes -cross check".

So, without being told to research further a pointer-AI summary, a knowledgeable person would know that he/she should do further reading beyond a summary reading.

........

Your final paragraph citing self-definition in religion - is also a socio-cultural factor. You mentioned many Nigerians not reading bibles or 'have never read the bible' from your personal experience - that fact is real to you - but not to the general Nigerian population in the UK.

From a socio-economic perspective - some Nigerians may not read the bible simply due to work and other pressures of city life. From a psychological perspective - some Nigerians will still make out time to 'at least' pray if they cannot read the bible.

Still from a psychological perspective - some Nigerians read the bible and devotionals for psychological reasons known to them - they need not read the whole bible - but specific chapters and verses they may have been referred to.

.....

Now to my point: The UK at this time, is not an overly religious country but there are pockets of the population that are.

In research - it's strategically difficult to capture a full population of the UK due to various factors - so researchers rely on sample population to make a general judgement. In some cases, reports often differ from one another due to the locations of research, the type of respondents and time of research - this however doesn't discredit the usage of research to seek knowledge.

To still reaffirm my initial point - the bible reading and devotional reading is still in vogue and probably even increasing in modern times including church attendance.

I will read your links now.

budaatum:
First thank you. You are appreciated.

A fast growing religion in UK is Islam, which is due to the influx of immigrants, and not the natives converting. Pentecostal Christianity is also growing, and not because the locals are leaving the Church of England to go there, but for the same reason Islam is growing. Immigrants. Below is a map of Pentecostal churches in the same area I posted for libraries. Most are Nigerian congregation churches.

Most churches are indeed full of black migrants, and would be dead without them.

My ma's church (of England) I sometimes go to is full of West Indian and Africans today, but investigate and you'd hear how they used to be referred to the Pentecostal church down the road as miss roads.

Now, this. You'd think religion education in UK is like in Nigeria, but it isn't. No teacher can stand in front of a class of students and preach god in a UK school. Not even in a Catholic or Muslim school can they do that, as the curriculum for religious education in UK forces the imparting of knowledge of all major religions, as in their history, mode of worship, main doctrines, past atrocities, etc.

In fact, I asked my child for this, and he told me one of his teachers is a priest. She does not teach him religious knowledge however. She is his English teacher. And no. They do not read the Bible in school, and you should have in fact seen the look on his face when I suggested they might.

No they are not. But I do not expect you to take my word for it.

One lament amongst the Nigerian parents in my mother's church and the CoE in general, is that children leave the church after they graduate from university. The parents can not seem to understand that while they are telling their children that God created everything in six days and rested, their teachers are teaching them the earth is almost 14 billion years old and has been evolving with nothing to do with any gods. And the schools arrange trips to the British Museum to go show them fossils of dinosaurs.

What kid, pray tell, will refuse what they see with their own eyes and choose to believe in fairy tales in a book?

You see the first part of your above? It actually irritates me when people say that, which they tend to do when AI disagrees with them, because they think the AI I present is some form of evidence, when I am presenting it as a pointer to research you should go and do. It after all does include links to reports and studies done on the topic, so why not bother researching them, or rather, asking and knocking and seeking for knowledge and data and information for oneself?

I've included some links to reports to assist you.

One of the links below is to a census report where it specifically says "A person’s religion is self-defined regardless of whether they practise their religion or not". Basically, they may have never been to church apart from for a wedding or a funeral but still identify as Christians. Most have definitely not read the Bible.

In fact, Kay, my experience has shown that even most Nigerian Christians have not read the bible! Though I must define my own 'read', which is start at page one and go page by page to the very end, as opposed to the random dipping done in churches.

Reading, on the whole, is just about dying, I'd say, because there's just far too much to distract from it these days.

On that note, I'll stop right here for now so I can leave you space to consume the links below.

And remember. The map below is Pentecostal churches that are attended mostly by we black African migrants.

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/constituency-data-religion/

https://www.kcl.ac.uk/news/god-heaven-and-hell-and-life-after-death-data-reveals-uks-low-religious-belief-compared-with-other-nations

https://humanists.uk/2025/03/26/non-religious-outnumber-christians-in-uk-pew-study/

https://www.brin.ac.uk/

https://www.secularism.org.uk/news/2025/07/christians-a-minority-in-the-uk-newly-published-data-reveals

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Re: From Obidient To Disobidient? by budaatum: 11:17am On Jan 02

kayjordan:
You are taught to believe in science.

I have chosen to address this one statement for now because it completely misses the point.

In UK, we are not taught to "believe in science" or anything at all. We are taught to use the scientific method (or as I define science, use our senses like Eve is written to have).

Once one believes a thing, one stops asking and knocking and seeking for knowledge because one assumes that what one believes is knowledge, which it isn't or you'd say you know, instead of, "I believe". I see this as a huge issue in Nigeria where we tend to believe a lot.

Belief in anything, is religion. It is not encouraged in the UK education system. The use of the senses is, and that's why Rule Britannia!

By the way, buda is a non-believing atheist, as in one that does not just believe that gods do not exist, because I know humans create figments of imaginations of gods in their heads.

Good morning. Hope you woke well.

Re: From Obidient To Disobidient? by Mbanda(m): 12:25pm On Jan 02

Predictor3:
Why should obi remain in LP when he couldn't win on his own with Lp? He must go and deputize Atiku for him to at least have a fighting chance to get close to federal power. Yes

Point of correction, Every responsible Nigeria knows that Obi won the 2023 presidential election, before tinibu and mamood used their technical glitch, snatched, grabbed and run tactics to truncate the election. And tinibu is planning on doing the same thing in 2027 but it will not work for him.

Re: From Obidient To Disobidient? by kayjordan(op): 2:08pm On Jan 02

Good afternoon to You!
And I did wake up well - thank you!

Thank you for correcting my mistake. It is correct that you "aren't taught to believe in science but instead you are taught the scientific methods".

Humans make mistakes especially when speed-typing. That's why Editors exist to correct mistakes.

Science is falsifiable and what you have done is to falsify a point I made which both of us have agreed on.

But regardless of the error - the message of that paragraph still stands that - we are taught to learn from science (as corrected) - and as you grow into an adult - you make the decision to know which to align with - scientific knowledge or biblical knowledge.

budaatum:
I have chosen to address this one statement for now because it completely misses the point.

In UK, we are not taught to "believe in science" or anything at all. We are taught to use the scientific method (or as I define science, use our senses like Eve is written to have).

Once one believes a thing, one stops asking and knocking and seeking for knowledge because one assumes that what one believes is knowledge, which it isn't or you'd say you know, instead of, "I believe". I see this as a huge issue in Nigeria where we tend to believe a lot.

Belief in anything, is religion. It is not encouraged in the UK education system. The use of the senses is, and that's why Rule Britannia!

By the way, buda is a non-believing atheist, as in one that does not just believe that gods do not exist, because I know humans create figments of imaginations of gods in their heads.

Good morning. Hope you woke well.

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Re: From Obidient To Disobidient? by Predictor3: 3:20pm On Jan 02

Mbanda:
Point of correction, Every responsible Nigeria knows that Obi won the 2023 presidential election, before tinibu and mamood used their technical glitch, snatched, grabbed and run tactics to truncate the election. And tinibu is planning on doing the same thing in 2027 but it will not work for him.

He won indeed.
Someone that's popular only among educated people. In the hinterlands of the north they don't know him Why do you think he's hiding inside Atiku's agbara now? 🤣

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Re: From Obidient To Disobidient? by kayjordan(op): 10:04am On Jan 03

"Good morning!

I noticed you haven’t replied to my last rebuttal...

Does this mean you finally concede to my previous point that: - "Youngsters in the UK have the free-will to choose between Science and Religion as they mature"?

Also does this mean you finally concede to my general point that states: - "The Bible is still very much a living 'Modem' in the UK", i.e - People in the UK still read the bible" ?

It occurs to me that, you as a person who supposedly lives in the UK - hasn't noticed the 'Quiet Revival' happening right under your nose.

Kindly note: The 2025 data is out, and it proves my intuition is right. Please see an overview of the facts from various verified sources below:

....

In the UK:

Bible Sales: Surged by 87% (Nielsen BookData).

Church Attendance: Grew by 50% since 2018 - now at 5.8 million monthly worshippers.

The Youth: 18–24-year-olds are leading this; 37% now believe in God, up from 16% just four years ago.

....

You argued that the UK is 'scientific' and has moved on.

The data shows they are using that same scientific education (which you lectured me on) to find their way back to faith.

Your map is old - my 'Signal' (My Point) is current.

Cheers!

Sources for these Figures:

The Bible Society: The Quiet Revival Report (2025).

Church of England: Statistics for Mission (Annual Returns 2019-2024).

Black Majority Churches (BMC) UK: Growth and Expansion Survey (2025).

Nielsen BookData: Religious and Spiritual Consumer Trends (2024-2025).

Office for National Statistics (ONS): Census 2021 & 2025 Mid-Year Projections.

British Science Association: Science in Society (2025).

YouGov poll reported in The Times and The Catholic Herald (August 2025)

budaatum:
I have chosen to address this one statement for now because it completely misses the point.

In UK, we are not taught to "believe in science" or anything at all. We are taught to use the scientific method (or as I define science, use our senses like Eve is written to have).

Once one believes a thing, one stops asking and knocking and seeking for knowledge because one assumes that what one believes is knowledge, which it isn't or you'd say you know, instead of, "I believe". I see this as a huge issue in Nigeria where we tend to believe a lot.

Belief in anything, is religion. It is not encouraged in the UK education system. The use of the senses is, and that's why Rule Britannia!

By the way, buda is a non-believing atheist, as in one that does not just believe that gods do not exist, because I know humans create figments of imaginations of gods in their heads.

Good morning. Hope you woke well.

Re: From Obidient To Disobidient? by budaatum: 2:13am On Jan 04

kayjordan:
- and as you grow into an adult - you make the decision to know which to align with - scientific knowledge or biblical knowledge.

Either decision is like a choice of the operating software one runs their hardware on. And understanding matters much.

Science would teach one that force multiplied by velocity equals power, but religion might leave some thinking the power is in yelling Jesus.

Outcomes will definitely differ, since both are not exactly equal useful 'knowledges', but one can eventually lead to the other if some brain power were applied.

For instance, the Bible teaches Power = Force x Velocity, just in a rather obtuse way. The power to produce my daily bread depends on the effort I exert by the rate of time that effort is exerted, which shows the Bible's usefulness in the basics, but not very useful when attempting to travel to the moon or build a superpower computer or simply letting there be light, if any of those are desired that is.

Re: From Obidient To Disobidient? by budaatum: 2:43am On Jan 04

kayjordan:
"Good morning!

I noticed you haven’t replied to my last rebuttal...

Does this mean you finally concede to my previous point that: - "Youngsters in the UK have the free-will to choose between Science and Religion as they mature"?

No one said Youngsters in the UK do not have the free-will to choose between Science and Religion as they mature. And your reading of the Church of England report does not support the increase you seem to think there is.

The growth in church attendance is mainly in pentecostal churches, and that is full of immigrants. It is not growing amongst the natives. Churches, and even pentecostal churches, are shutting down as attendance and revenue dwindles.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/369080/church-of-england-attendance-by-service-uk/

https://www.churchtimes.co.uk/articles/2025/31-october/news/uk/church-of-england-statistics-for-mission-contradict-claims-of-quiet-revival

I have included the exact phrases used in my questions for the images below so you can falsify it to see the relevant links and not just assume AI.

Good morning.

Re: From Obidient To Disobidient? by kayjordan(op): 9:23am On Jan 05

This first argument will be concise (I hope) for the sake of the broad information for the second argument.

First Argument on (Free-will):

Your explanation is a comprehensive scientific analysis. The software-operating system comparison you made states - you can choose any computer version, software for your operating system as it's your choice. This still affirms my point - as you cannot disprove my philosophical argument with data - only with logic.

Philosophy birthed science and philosophy is as abstract as spirituality - because philosophy tries to study it.

So when dealing with abstract matters - philosophers explanation of your immediate environment/world, would sound imaginary compared to science's practical evidence-based explanations.

One would have expected you to argue with my free-will submission in my earlier rebuttal - but instead, you cherry picked an error word - "believe" - to distract us from the main argument.

However, I decided to play along and acknowledge my mistake in order to stay focused on the main point - but if I may challenge your 'red flag' notification - I would say - in layman's English or in informal settings, I'm still accurate if I say - "I believe in Science " - just as you can say - "You believe in the Electoral System" or "You believe in the Health System" as supported by the English Dictionary. Science is no different from an 'Electoral System' or a 'Health System' as all three require scientific processes and methods.

Even if you say - "Trust in the System" - the word 'Trust' still makes a perfect synonym for the word "believe".

So, technically and professionally speaking, you are correct - but on the basis for which we are arguing - not so necessary, but acknowledgeable.

.....

Second argument on (UK religious level):

Now to the main subject-matter which is: "Do people still attend churches in the UK?" and "Do people still read bibles in the UK? "

I stood firm initially on the motion that "People in the UK, still read the bible" and I confirmed a conservative (private life) attitude towards church attendance. I still stand by these facts.

The facts you have recently provided are back-dated or 'selective' or - 'not fully verified'.

However, we cannot argue with the facts - but we can present them and defend them - 'except' - we individually conduct our independent research which is likely non-feasible.

To clean up your data - please see below, an extract of current facts:

UK Population & Christian Demographics (2025)

Category Population (2025) % of Total Population
Total UK Population 69,487,000 100%

Total Christians ~27,100,000 39%

Total Churchgoers (Monthly+) 5,800,000 8.3%

Non-Churchgoing Christians ~18,700,000 27%

"Quiet Revival" Growth 2,100,000 Increase since 2018

Black & Minority Churchgoers ~1,102,000 1.6% (19% of churchgoers)

The Comparison: Churchgoers vs. Non-Churchgoers

The UK currently has a - "High-Commitment" religious core but a - "Low-Engagement" cultural majority:

The Active Core (5.8 Million): This group has surged from 3.7 million in 2018 to 5.8 million in 2025.

The Cultural Majority (18.7 Million): These individuals identify as Christian but do not attend services. This group is shrinking (down from 32% to 27% of the population) as people either begin attending church (joining the revival) or stop identifying as Christian entirely.

Bible Reading Among Non-Churchgoing Christians

While the surge in Bible reading (now 12% of the total UK population, or 8.3 million people) is primarily driven by active churchgoers - a significant number of Christians who do not attend church still engage with the text.

Population of Non-Churchgoing Bible Readers: Approximately 4,460,000.

Percentage: Roughly 24% of all non-churchgoing Christians in the UK read the Bible at least weekly.

Context: This group accounts for the "gap" between the 3.8 million weekly readers who are regular churchgoers and the 8.3 million total weekly readers in the UK.

Verified & Credible Sources

Office for National Statistics (ONS): Provisional population estimate for the UK: mid-2025

Confirms the total UK population figure of 69.5 million.

The Bible Society: The Quiet Revival: 2025 Research Report

Provides the 5.8 million churchgoer figure, the 39% Christian identification stat, and the ethnic minority percentages.

YouGov / The Times: New figures reveal a surge in belief in God

Verifies the survey data showing 18–24-year-olds doubling their belief in God to 37%.

Evangelical Alliance: Changing Church 2025 Survey

Detailed breakdown of church growth (13–20% increase) across various denominations.

###

The above submission from me, clarifies my initial facts - and also clears common misconceptions such as personal testimonies, biases and hearsays.

The internet is a public domain and free to access by anyone who wishes to confirm these subject matters - it's very simple - just type: "do people still attend churches or "read" bibles in the U.K?" - and one would get multiple results - the good, the bad and the worst.

At this point, I suggest a "verdict" be made unless if the opposing party - which is your humble self has an objection.

budaatum:
No one said Youngsters in the UK do not have the free-will to choose between Science and Religion as they mature. And your reading of the Church of England report does not support the increase you seem to think there is.

The growth in church attendance is mainly in pentecostal churches, and that is full of immigrants. It is not growing amongst the natives. Churches, and even pentecostal churches, are shutting down as attendance and revenue dwindles.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/369080/church-of-england-attendance-by-service-uk/

https://www.churchtimes.co.uk/articles/2025/31-october/news/uk/church-of-england-statistics-for-mission-contradict-claims-of-quiet-revival

I have included the exact phrases used in my questions for the images below so you can falsify it to see the relevant links and not just assume AI.

Good morning.

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Re: From Obidient To Disobidient? by kayjordan(op): 10:40am On Jan 05

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populationandmigration/populationestimates/bulletins/provisionalpopulationestimatefortheuk/mid2025

https://www.google.com/search?q=https://www.biblesociety.org.uk/research/the-quiet-revival/

https://www.eauk.org/assets/files/downloads/Changing-Church-2025-FINAL.pdf

https://thecatholicherald.com/article/new-figures-reveal-a-surge-in-belief-in-god-among-gen-z-britons

budaatum:
No one said Youngsters in the UK do not have the free-will to choose between Science and Religion as they mature. And your reading of the Church of England report does not support the increase you seem to think there is.

The growth in church attendance is mainly in pentecostal churches, and that is full of immigrants. It is not growing amongst the natives. Churches, and even pentecostal churches, are shutting down as attendance and revenue dwindles.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/369080/church-of-england-attendance-by-service-uk/

https://www.churchtimes.co.uk/articles/2025/31-october/news/uk/church-of-england-statistics-for-mission-contradict-claims-of-quiet-revival

I have included the exact phrases used in my questions for the images below so you can falsify it to see the relevant links and not just assume AI.

Good morning.

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Re: From Obidient To Disobidient? by budaatum: 11:35pm On Jan 10

kayjordan:
To still reaffirm my initial point - the bible reading and devotional reading is still in vogue and probably even increasing in modern times including church attendance.

I wrote a long tirade about issues raised in your above, but this is the relevant point.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2026/jan/10/its-younger-people-seeking-some-sort-of-spirituality-the-rise-of-uk-bible-sales

Your position is affirmed and is conceded.

We however differ in cause. The japas from Nigeria alone would count for a huge surge in UK Bible sales, and I strongly doubt UK 18-24s are reading Bible as much as is claimed, as that's the age most are laying their future out at uni.

Re: From Obidient To Disobidient? by kayjordan(op): 3:36pm On Jan 11

I appreciate your sportsmanship.

True to the fact that Nigerian immigrants make up a significant number of bible readers in the UK - even some jamos and ghanian immigrants too are included in this category.

Nevertheless, the immigrants are part of the UK population - so, any event caused by them, will still be a UK affair rather than a isolated one.

The true borns (British natives) 18-24 year olds are reported to seek spirituality, but from your personal experience and from a general understanding, most people will doubt a youngster would want to have anything to do with God even though it may be happening.

Cheers!

budaatum:
I wrote a long tirade about issues raised in your above, but this is the relevant point.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2026/jan/10/its-younger-people-seeking-some-sort-of-spirituality-the-rise-of-uk-bible-sales

Your position is affirmed and is conceded.

We however differ in cause. The japas from Nigeria alone would count for a huge surge in UK Bible sales, and I strongly doubt UK 18-24s are reading Bible as much as is claimed, as that's the age most are laying their future out at uni.

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Re: From Obidient To Disobidient? by budaatum: 11:58pm On Mar 29

kayjordan, hope you good.

I came across the following and remembered you.

Based on data collected by a YouGov survey, it claimed church attendance was increasing in England and Wales. The findings drove headlines, and the narrative was established.

There was just one problem – the survey turned out to be based on “fraudulent” data and has been withdrawn. And academics and experts are warning that this episode should serve as a parable, not about a renaissance in religion, but of the false prophets of artificial intelligence.

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2026/mar/28/how-fraudulent-church-data-revealed-ais-threat-to-polling

Re: From Obidient To Disobidient? by helinues: 6:20am On Mar 30

The casted group who are not a pure jokes

Re: From Obidient To Disobidient? by kayjordan(op): 12:23pm On May 04

Dear Budaatum,

I apologize for replying you late.

Thank you for sharing this information piece with me.

We are humans with limitations and due to our limitations, we are prone to make mistakes or judge our world differently.

The post by the Guardian addresses the false news been peddled as accurate for a long time. Just as I mentioned in our earlier banter, we can "only" report the facts - we can't invent them.

The more facts you present determines your win and the more facts i present would determine my win.

If your current data is absolutely correct, then your motion on religiosity in UK becomes valid - nevertheless, truth is always hard to find - only consensus truth like data-reports are easier to accept as true.

I will investigate this new development and get back to you if needed.

Cheers!

budaatum:
kayjordan, hope you good.

I came across the following and remembered you.

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Re: From Obidient To Disobidient? by budaatum: 4:52pm On May 04

Kayjordan, thanks for your response. Please know that I do not want to win. I just want us to have correct information so that we may know, because working on wrong assumptions is like building our house on sand. The wind will blow and tear it down.

Incidentally, I am discussing with someone in USA who is insisting that Muslims are taking over in UK. And their evidence is that Muslim Sadiq Khan is our mayor. i, of course, laugh when I tell her the majority of people who voted for Sadiq Khan are mostly non-Muslims. This is his third term, and he has not spoken about introducing Sharia law yet.

She thinks UK is a Christian nation, lol, when in truth we are a secular nation, and have been since Henry VIII chased out Catholicism. People don't understand that behind him, some people were using him to chase God out too. Today, if a politician mentions Jesus or Allah or God too much here while campaigning, we'd rather elect Satan. We the people rule in Britain, and not any Gods whom we hope stay in their heavens and rule there, while we humans rule the earth and subdue it and multiply and be blessed.

Please know that I do not presume that my "data" and "facts" are in any way absolutely correct. I can not be so perfect in collecting the data and facts, and nor do I believe those who collect the data and facts that I present are perfect neither. I merely present them as anecdotal evidence that supports what I myself observe with my semi-blind eyes and my limited human understanding.

Greetings.

kayjordan:
Dear Budaatum,

I apologize for replying you late.

Thank you for sharing this information piece with me.

We are humans with limitations and due to our limitations, we are prone to make mistakes or judge our world differently.

The post by the Guardian addresses the false news been peddled as accurate for a long time. Just as I mentioned in our earlier banter, we can "only" report the facts - we can't invent them.

The more facts you present determines your win and the more facts i present would determine my win.

If your current data is absolutely correct, then your motion on religiosity in UK becomes valid - nevertheless, truth is always hard to find - only consensus truth like data-reports are easier to accept as true.

I will investigate this new development and get back to you if needed.

Cheers!

Re: From Obidient To Disobidient? by budaatum: 5:09pm On May 04

I found this interesting. It points to the increase in immigrants.

One in three of those attending a religious service on a weekly basis are to be found in a mosque, mandir, gurdwara, temple, or synagogue rather than a church. Moreover, among those aged under 35, less than half of those attending a religious service on a monthly basis are to be found inside a church. Rather than pointing to a revival of Christianity, the patterns of religious observance among Generation Z seemingly point to Britain becoming an increasingly more religiously diverse country, albeit one that is still largely secular in its everyday practice.

https://natcen.ac.uk/publications/there-religious-revival-britain

Re: From Obidient To Disobidient? by kayjordan(op): 7:43pm On May 04*

Hello Budaatum,

It's refreshing to know this isn't a competition but education - I'll acknowledge that.

The UK has evolved with lots if Indians taking over various sectors. Sadiq Khan and other Indian politicians in the UK wouldn't and shouldn't mix politics with religion. Politics is a system, religion is an application.

Henry the eighth in my educated opinion was selfishly crafting Christianity to suit himself. Whether he was used to chase Christianity out of England, remains a matter of public opinion.

I also acknowledge your imperfection and the imperfections of researchers we rely on. We are as good as what we see, hear and smell until we're proven otherwise.

I will address the next bubble you wrote and then submit my new findings in another bubble.

budaatum:
Kayjordan, thanks for your response. Please know that I do not want to win. I just want us to have correct information so that we may know, because working on wrong assumptions is like building our house on sand. The wind will blow and tear it down.

Incidentally, I am discussing with someone in USA who is insisting that Muslims are taking over in UK. And their evidence is that Muslim Sadiq Khan is our mayor. i, of course, laugh when I tell her the majority of people who voted for Sadiq Khan are mostly non-Muslims. This is his third term, and he has not spoken about introducing Sharia law yet.

She thinks UK is a Christian nation, lol, when in truth we are a secular nation, and have been since Henry VIII chased out Catholicism. People don't understand that behind him, some people were using him to chase God out too. Today, if a politician mentions Jesus or Allah or God too much here while campaigning, we'd rather elect Satan. We the people rule in Britain, and not any Gods whom we hope stay in their heavens and rule there, while we humans rule the earth and subdue it and multiply and be blessed.

Please know that I do not presume that my "data" and "facts" are in any way absolutely correct. I can not be so perfect in collecting the data and facts, and nor do I believe those who collect the data and facts that I present are perfect neither. I merely present them as anecdotal evidence that supports what I myself observe with my semi-blind eyes and my limited human understanding.

Greetings.

1 Like 1 Share

Re: From Obidient To Disobidient? by kayjordan(op): 7:55pm On May 04

Absolutely! You mentioned it in your earlier defense that the west Indians are part of the population that occupy churches in the U.K - and you are also documenting that immigrants from India, Pakistan etc as the major promoters of religion particularly Islam in the UK which seems more popular than Christianity from your report.

This interesting piece shows religion is beyond Christianity in the UK. It's about Islam, Buddhism, race and culture etc as I've mentioned somewhere in our overwhelmed thread list in the past.

budaatum:
I found this interesting. It points to the increase in immigrants.

1 Like 1 Share

Re: From Obidient To Disobidient? by kayjordan(op): 8:21pm On May 04

I have investigated your latest discovery on religiosity (Christianity) in the U.K and the information still so far, affirms my former points.

Just to refresh our minds, the very first argument you raised in this thread was "People in the UK are "dropping" the Bibles" and my counter point was " No, some people in the UK are still reading the Bible".

This further led to Church Attendance in the UK and you argued that "people in the UK don't attend churches" - you further argued Churches in the UK are used/converted to multipurpose facilities.

I supported your claim that "people in the UK don't attend churches" - I further explained that the religiosity level in the UK cannot be compared with Africa (Nigeria, precisely) that is highly religious.

I further stated that "people in the UK do not need to go to church to prove they're Christians as they might as well prove that at home by reading the Bible or watching Christian content on television or mobile devices."

Whilst this isn't a competition as acknowledged earlier, this background-knowledge you've just read above, supports the new investigated facts I have presented below:

The Comparison: Sales vs. Behavior:

>>>
Church Attendance: The retracted claim of 12% monthly attendance was corrected to a steady 4–5%.

Gen Z Participation: Claims of a 16% surge among young adults were fake; engagement remains static.

UK Bible Sales: A genuine 19% increase was recorded in 2025, the highest since 1998.

SPCK Growth: Verified sales rose 134% since 2019, growing from 192,000 to 396,000 copies.

<<<

Verified Sources:
Retraction of "Quiet Revival" Report Bible Society UK Official Statement (issued March 26, 2026) and YouGov CEO Stephan Shakespeare’s formal apology.

Identification of AI/Fraudulent Bots
YouGov Internal Review (March 2026), which identified "low-quality/unreliable" automated responses in the 2024 sampling
19% UK Bible Sales Growth (2025)

NielsenIQ BookData, released ahead of the London Book Fair (March 2026).
134% Long-term Sales Increase
SPCK (Society for Promoting Christian Knowledge) multi-year retail analysis (2019–2025).

Retraction Coverage
The Independent, Church Times, and Research Live (March 26–30, 2026).

...

Conclusion:
Despite the static Church Attendance in the UK, some people in the UK are still lifting the Bible which now clears the primary argument - "the Bible reading".

If you have any objection, I'm willing to hear from you.

Cheers!

budaatum:
kayjordan, hope you good.

I came across the following and remembered you.

1 Like 1 Share

Re: From Obidient To Disobidient? by budaatum: 2:23pm On May 05

kayjordan:
Conclusion:
Despite the static Church Attendance in the UK, some people in the UK are still lifting the Bible which now clears the primary argument - "the Bible reading".

If you have any objection, I'm willing to hear from you.
Cheers!

Bible reading has indeed increased. So no objection to that.

Despite UK being a secular society, more people than before will definitely read the Bible, the King James Version being a foundational text of the nation. Even atheist me advises new immigrants to read the Bible to understand the country they live in, and I tell them that the lines on the road and the order of society is based on the KJV. But that does not mean they should believe it, because believe is not what the British do. We aim to understand it and ourselves instead. As for the British themselves, I can assure you that Bible reading and church attendance has decreased. The latter is obvious from the number of churches that have had to close because of falls iin attendance and revenue. The complaint is that they are being turned into mosques and pubs. The Saint John's that I go to has to rent its hall out to a pentrcostal church to pay bills. That hall used to be the gallery that was used for the overflow from the main church in its hay day when it used to fill up, but is no more required since the 70s due to a fall in attendance. Our congregation of about 100 is mostly Nigerians and Carribeans, with like 6 whites, which includes the vicar and his family. Lately, Indians seem to be increasing too.

But let's allow time to pass so we see more clearly. I personally expect churches like Winners, Redeem and other imported churches and religions to continue to grow, as they are, to cater to the increase in migrants. The Church of England will however continue to diminish in attendance and number of operating churches due to the abandonment of natives and the inability to attract new congregants. There are those complaining already that we don't worship Christ there, and they use the fact we have appointed a woman as Archbishop, in contradiction to the Bible, to establish that point. Some can't understand that we evolve in the land of Darwin, who, incidentally, is interred in a Church.

Re: From Obidient To Disobidient? by budaatum: 2:36pm On May 05

kayjordan:
This interesting piece shows religion is beyond Christianity in the UK. It's about Islam, Buddhism, race and culture etc as I've mentioned somewhere in our overwhelmed thread list in the past.

Glad you noticed. In fact, there are some who are proposing the CofE start include everyone who enters the church grounds for any reason at any time to be counted as attendance. So, if you rent our hall for Yoga or a badminton club meeting place or for use as a pentecostal church, or even just to meet the local Member of Parliament who uses it once every month, you'd be countrd as a church attender. Our ground are used as a shortcut to the station, and it's being suggested by some that we count them too. We are that desperate to increase our numbers, lol.

Re: From Obidient To Disobidient? by budaatum: 3:13pm On May 05

kayjordan:
The UK has evolved with lots if Indians taking over various sectors. Sadiq Khan and other Indian politicians in the UK wouldn't and shouldn't mix politics with religion. Politics is a system, religion is an application.

It is not only foreigners who "shouldn't mix politics with religion", especially in the diverse society of UK with its many Gods.

Our previous Prime Minister's head of communications, Alastair Campbell, once famously said: "We don't do God." But Tony is doing a lot of God now he's no more in office I dare say, having found God is done a lot outside UK where he mostly operates now. Kemi Badenoch, on the other hand, seems to be doing God, and I'm waiting for the election next week to see God do her.

kayjordan:
Henry the eighth in my educated opinion was selfishly crafting Christianity to suit himself. Whether he was used to chase Christianity out of England, remains a matter of public opinion.

Indeed he was being "selfish". While many think it was about his sexual needs, he wanted the money that was going to Rome to end up in his own coffers. This we know by the stripping of the Catholic churches he embarked on and the tithes paid remaining in Britain. But while he was selfishly putting his bits where he wanted and the money in his own pocket, some were using the opportunity to kill God in the society and in schools, and only managed to completely kick Gods out of schools in the 1980-90s when prayer became non-mandatory.

Nowadays, religious study can not be preaching or the promotion of one god or religion, but the impartion of the knowledge of all gods and religions so people may know as opposed to merely believe like they did in the past.

By the way, this makes me wonder if I might not be comparing now to a more distant past while you are being more current than I am. I can't get out of my mind that church attendance was mandatory for some professionals (like teachers, for instance, and the community doctor and butcher) at a point in time, but not anymore.

Re: From Obidient To Disobidient? by kayjordan(op): 5:10pm On May 05

The separation of religion from politics is so advised because the government is a physical system (physical realm) and religion whilst a study is - a realm of spirituality - therefore both unmatched realms shouldn't be together or else they will clash.

I support the Campbell's stance - "we don't do God" - not because I hate the idea of a God but because you just shouldn't mix imagination with reality - if you want to increase revenue, do so by sending tax bills, not sending prayer points - that's "wishful thinking".

Blair is being environmentally influenced. He is well traveled and this is a common thing - learning new habits like a new belief system.

Badenock is a classic example of one of my earlier submission that - "people who live in the UK come from different cultural environments in the world" - so it's a foundational expectation.

Henry VIII in my opinion was a politician. There wasn't a strict separation between religion and politics back then, so his decision was expected. Unlike now that we have the Vatican as a socio-spiritual-political city which is using the system of religion to run it's mini government. So, as England evolved, the concept of God began going into extinction to the point that you've just raised that people were taking advantage of that opportunity to kick God out of England.

As a Christian, I've made quite a number of quests to the point that I feel like an anti-christ in Nigeria when I speak. What I tell people is: "learn about your world" - but they tell me "don't question God" - and I'll be like why shouldn't I question God if you claim Man was created in the Image of God? - so therefore, if we can question ourselves daily due to distrust, then we should question God - and not just God, but his vessels (Man-Prophets) for you claim we are like him...

I go to Church in Nigeria like I'm going to a seminar or a conference - Nigerians go to Church for carnivals. I sit in Church for 3-4hours listening to theory and music - when I'm most interested in the theory. And maybe I probably get judged for being a Statue of Liberty throughout the worship and praise sessions - I dunno..

In my opinion once again, religion is a "system" and a study of it is "education" (which supports your point too). Theology is the study of that religious history, application in society etc. So people clearly don't know the difference between Religion, Theology and spirituality. Spirituality is what can't be studied but internally observed through belief. So I can be a sinner who studied Theology because I'm not mandated by my profession as a theologian to be a born again - but I'm paid and mandated to conduct research and help improve society with religious knowledge.

So England is in the enlightenment period and that's why you need not have 70% Church Attendance to continue as a professional teacher or butcher. UK is now more logical than ever before. Life should learn to separate air from water.

budaatum:
It is not only foreigners who "shouldn't mix politics with religion", especially in the diverse society of UK with its many Gods.

Our previous Prime Minister's head of communications, Alastair Campbell, once famously said: "We don't do God." But Tony is doing a lot of God now he's no more in office I dare say, having found God is done a lot outside UK where he mostly operates now. Kemi Badenoch, on the other hand, seems to be doing God, and I'm waiting for the election next week to see God do her.

Indeed he was being "selfish". While many think it was about his sexual needs, he wanted the money that was going to Rome to end up in his own coffers. This we know by the stripping of the Catholic churches he embarked on and the tithes paid remaining in Britain. But while he was selfishly putting his bits where he wanted and the money in his own pocket, some were using the opportunity to kill God in the society and in schools, and only managed to completely kick Gods out of schools in the 1980-90s when prayer became non-mandatory.

Nowadays, religious study can not be preaching or the promotion of one god or religion, but the impartion of the knowledge of all gods and religions so people may know as opposed to merely believe like they did in the past.

By the way, this makes me wonder if I might not be comparing now to a more distant past while you are being more current than I am. I can't get out of my mind that church attendance was mandatory for some professionals (like teachers, for instance, and the community doctor and butcher) at a point in time, but not anymore.

Re: From Obidient To Disobidient? by kayjordan(op): 5:37pm On May 05

God in my limited knowledge is a concept. The belief in God in my opinion probably came from writers hallucination - passed down generations with little or no opposition to becoming a "Verified Truth". Why it survived such a time machine of 1,000 years to this period we live in - is a research for another day.

Enlightened UK have used science to separate facts from fiction to the point now that it's now a norm to use a Church as a store room or garage as that is more logical, reasonable and realistic than using same building to visual a being that can't be seen - to me, that's waste of space for such use and a deprivation of other important uses.

Those Christians who condemn other Christians for not worshiping christ all because of a female Archbishop are brainwashed by the brainwashed. A Bible chapter or verse can have 1,000 meanings - there's never one solid Bible verse interpretation - it's always distorted by various human understanding. So quite clearly, the attackers are influenced by one man's understanding. Science is neutral and agreed on - "man and woman are equal" - law is neutral and agreed on - "man and woman are equal". Religion is not neutral - it's extreme and divided - so why should one continue to look at scattered puzzles when there's a solved puzzle elsewhere.

Less you know, another Christian would interpret the role of a female Archbishop as a blessing - and the confusion continues.

budaatum:
Bible reading has indeed increased. So no objection to that.

Despite UK being a secular society, more people than before will definitely read the Bible, the King James Version being a foundational text of the nation. Even atheist me advises new immigrants to read the Bible to understand the country they live in, and I tell them that the lines on the road and the order of society is based on the KJV. But that does not mean they should believe it, because believe is not what the British do. We aim to understand it and ourselves instead. As for the British themselves, I can assure you that Bible reading and church attendance has decreased. The latter is obvious from the number of churches that have had to close because of falls iin attendance and revenue. The complaint is that they are being turned into mosques and pubs. The Saint John's that I go to has to rent its hall out to a pentrcostal church to pay bills. That hall used to be the gallery that was used for the overflow from the main church in its hay day when it used to fill up, but is no more required since the 70s due to a fall in attendance. Our congregation of about 100 is mostly Nigerians and Carribeans, with like 6 whites, which includes the vicar and his family. Lately, Indians seem to be increasing too.

But let's allow time to pass so we see more clearly. I personally expect churches like Winners, Redeem and other imported churches and religions to continue to grow, as they are, to cater to the increase in migrants. The Church of England will however continue to diminish in attendance and number of operating churches due to the abandonment of natives and the inability to attract new congregants. There are those complaining already that we don't worship Christ there, and they use the fact we have appointed a woman as Archbishop, in contradiction to the Bible, to establish that point. Some can't understand that we evolve in the land of Darwin, who, incidentally, is interred in a Church.

Re: From Obidient To Disobidient? by kayjordan(op): 6:13pm On May 05

Trust me, the start and end of every drive into a public space will be calculated as "Visitors".

Humans are lazy thinkers but to be polite "people of convenience". It's easier/more convenient to be informed by the headlines than the full body of the news - little wonder why misinformation spreads.

America is not perfect either. In the case of Nigeria, the American authority reported killings of Christians in Nigeria and Nigeria debunked it and gave a better account of the killings. The American authority reported in recent times that Nigeria is not safe and had it's Embassy shutdown in Abuja. What America most likely had was surface news. Abuja is not safe too but not to the degree it was promoted at - Nigeria is relatively safe - but not to the degree America promoted it at.

In continuation, it's not that Africa is a large continent-island full of trees and monkeys as believed some years ago - the fact is that Africa is characterized by forest and wildlife but not in entirety - there are skyscrapers, cinemas, shopping centers, modern houses and cars - but these are often hidden or overlapped by excess jungle internet images - so it becomes easier to approximate the entire land mass as jungle - so is the judgement of America on Nigeria's insecurity.

You brought to my notice, capital misinformation created by AI on UK church attendance recently - and even the verified media as solid as the US Government, couldn't be immune to such misinformation.

budaatum:
Glad you noticed. In fact, there are some who are proposing the CofE start include everyone who enters the church grounds for any reason at any time to be counted as attendance. So, if you rent our hall for Yoga or a badminton club meeting place or for use as a pentecostal church, or even just to meet the local Member of Parliament who uses it once every month, you'd be countrd as a church attender. Our ground are used as a shortcut to the station, and it's being suggested by some that we count them too. We are that desperate to increase our numbers, lol.

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