₦airaland Forum

I felt it was best to move this to a new thread.

SIRTee15:
So was Tacitus lying when he said they crucified Jesus

These are some Jesuses in the first century so which one, well most likely it was Jesus son of Sapphias that was crucified for leading a rebellion against Roman occupation of Israel.
Tacitus wrote about Jesus in his work Annals, specifically in Book 15, chapter 44.
When was this written?
Most scholars date the Annals to around 116–117 CE
This is during the reign of Emperor Trajan in the early 2nd century
So: Tacitus wrote about Jesus around 116–117 CE (early 2nd century), not in the 1st century.

1. Jesus son of Damneus
Mentioned in Flavius Josephus (Antiquities of the Jews)
High priest of Judea (appointed c. 62 CE)
Took office after the execution of James (as described by Josephus)
Political-religious elite figure

2. Jesus son of Ananias
Mentioned in Josephus (Jewish War)
Apocalyptic street prophet in Jerusalem (c. 62–70 CE)
Shouted warnings of Jerusalem’s destruction for years
Arrested, beaten, and eventually killed during the Roman siege period

3. Jesus son of Sapphias
Mentioned in Josephus (Jewish War, Galilee narratives)
Galilean political/factional leader during the outbreak of the First Jewish Revolt (c. 66 CE)
Involved in violent local power struggles in Tiberias
Not a national commander, but a regional agitator

4. Jesus son of Gamaliel
Mentioned in Josephus (Antiquities)
High priest in the mid–late 1st century CE
Member of the priestly aristocracy in Jerusalem
Part of the shifting high-priestly appointments under Roman authority

5. Jesus son of Sepphas (or Cephas, depending on manuscript interpretation)
Mentioned in Josephus (Jewish War)
Priest connected with Temple affairs during the war
Involved in handing over Temple valuables to Roman forces (under Titus’ campaign context)

6. Jesus son of Thebuthi
Mentioned in Josephus (Jewish War)
Priest who surrendered sacred Temple items (including vessels) to the Romans
Appears during the final stages of the siege of Jerusalem (70 CE)

Quoting from a book written in Rome around 116 CE where the story was invented, will not help you.

Philo, a Jewish writer living next door in Alexandria, Egypt, during the time of the fictional Jesus’ ministry, never mentioned Jesus. Yet you rely on Tacitus, writings far away in Rome, in the second century, who was not even born during Jesus’ lifetime.

1) Pontius Pilate disturbances in Judea

Philo: Philo of Alexandria
Source: Embassy to Gaius
Date described: c. 26–36 CE (Pilate’s governorship; Philo is describing events within this period)

Event: Roman standards / shields incident in Jerusalem
Pilate installed imperial shields in Jerusalem (likely early in his rule, c. 26–30 CE).
Jewish population protested because it violated religious law.
Philo portrays Pilate as politically stubborn and eventually forced to back down.

Philo’s framing (paraphrased):
He describes Pilate as inflexible and the situation as creating major unrest in Judea.

2) Crisis under Emperor Caligula (statue in the Temple)

Philo: Philo of Alexandria
Source: Embassy to Gaius
Date: 39–40 CE

Event: Order to place Caligula’s statue in the Jerusalem Temple
Emperor Caligula ordered his statue to be installed in the Jewish Temple.
Roman governor Petronius delayed enforcement due to mass Jewish resistance.
Philo describes extreme fear of war and massacre.

Key date anchor:

Crisis peaks in 40 CE, shortly before Caligula’s assassination (Jan 41 CE).
3) Anti-Jewish violence in Alexandria

Philo: Philo of Alexandria
Source: Against Flaccus
Date: 38 CE

Event: Pogroms in Alexandria under Flaccus
Jewish population of Alexandria is attacked and restricted.
Synagogues are destroyed or desecrated.
People are confined to a smaller district of the city.

Key date:

Occurs during the reign of Caligula, under prefect Aulus Avilius Flaccus in 38 CE.

SIRTee15:
Listing people called Jesus in the 1st century wont help u. Jesus simply mean Joshua and its a common name in the 1st century period.

Tacitus was talking about a Jesus Christ who suffered under Pontus Pilate. who is that Jesus also called Christ?

In his Annals (Book 15, Chapter 44, written around AD 116), the Roman historian Tacitus describes the aftermath of the Great Fire of Rome in AD 64. Tacitus reports that Emperor Nero, accused of starting the fire, sought scapegoats and targeted Christians: “Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus” (Annals 15.44). Tacitus further notes that this “most mischievous superstition” spread from Judea to Rome, where it became widely known.

We had this philo argument before and was thoroughly debunked.
Now u bringing it up again.

Let me ask u, did philo write about John the Baptist, or that one too didn't exist?

Tacitus is not writing from hearsay or that people told him. He gets his source from Roman annals called Acta senatus which is the official roman empire documents.
He had access to these documents because he was a Roman senator.

This was all that Tacitus wrote about Christus:
“Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace.
Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome…”

How did you debunk this:

Philo, a Jewish writer living next door in Alexandria, Egypt, during the time of the fictional Jesus’ ministry, never mentioned Jesus. Yet you rely on Tacitus, writings far away in Rome, in the second century, who was not even born during Jesus’ lifetime.

1) Pontius Pilate disturbances in Judea

Philo: Philo of Alexandria
Source: Embassy to Gaius
Date described: c. 26–36 CE (Pilate’s governorship; Philo is describing events within this period)

Event: Roman standards / shields incident in Jerusalem
Pilate installed imperial shields in Jerusalem (likely early in his rule, c. 26–30 CE).
Jewish population protested because it violated religious law.
Philo portrays Pilate as politically stubborn and eventually forced to back down.

Philo’s framing (paraphrased):
He describes Pilate as inflexible and the situation as creating major unrest in Judea.

2) Crisis under Emperor Caligula (statue in the Temple)

Philo: Philo of Alexandria
Source: Embassy to Gaius
Date: 39–40 CE

Event: Order to place Caligula’s statue in the Jerusalem Temple
Emperor Caligula ordered his statue to be installed in the Jewish Temple.
Roman governor Petronius delayed enforcement due to mass Jewish resistance.
Philo describes extreme fear of war and massacre.

Key date anchor:

Crisis peaks in 40 CE, shortly before Caligula’s assassination (Jan 41 CE).
3) Anti-Jewish violence in Alexandria

Philo: Philo of Alexandria
Source: Against Flaccus
Date: 38 CE

Event: Pogroms in Alexandria under Flaccus
Jewish population of Alexandria is attacked and restricted.
Synagogues are destroyed or desecrated.
People are confined to a smaller district of the city.

Key date:

Occurs during the reign of Caligula, under prefect Aulus Avilius Flaccus in 38 CE.
===================================================================

For this:

This was all that Tacitus wrote about Christus:
“Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace.
Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome…”

Did philo write about other jewish Messiah claimants in the early first century.
Did he write about Judas of gamala
Did he write about Theudas the zealot.

These men were popular amongst the Jews, they raised army and fought against the Roman occupation around 1-50 AD to prove their messianic claim.
What did your historian philo write about them?


philo died in AD 50, so would be very much aware of the riots and rebellion against roman authority that rocked the whole of judea in the early first century AD.

Did he write about the zealots that pioneered the revolution. The zealots were blamed for the first Jewish- roman war.
Even the bible mentioned one of Jesus disciple was called Simon the zealot just to show u the impact this movement had at that period.

Did philo report about the execution of Judas's sons, James and Simon by procurator Tiberius Julius Alexander in about 46 CE. James and Simon were fierce nationalists who caused the people to revolt when Quirinius came to take an account of the estates of the Jews.

Did philo write about Pontus Pilate and the massacre of the Samaritans led by their Messiah like figure Dositheus in AD 37. philo was very much alive and active that time, u can't tell me he didn't hear about it because that action led to the removal of Pontus Pilate as governor of judea.

philo didn't even write about John the Baptist who was more popular than Jesus during his time.

Yet you expect him to write about a pacifist whose ministry was restricted to Galilee and never stirred much trouble with Roman authorities.

So much for how people search for missing clues.

@MindHacker 9009

Jewish historian wrote about Jesus...Josephus.

So this your so called expert Historian wrote about contemporary Jewish events in the early 1st century AD but did not write anything at all about the riots that rocked Judea and Jerusalem during his time.
Did not write anything about all the Messiah claimants including those that raised an army against the Roman govt.

Jesus wasnt the only person who claimed to be Messiah and was killed. Did he write about other ones like Judas of Gamala who told Jews not to pay tax and led an army against the Roman legion. Funny enough, the book of acts mentioned him as a rebel who resisted the roman census.

Philos did not write anything about the zealots movement whose action led to the destruction of the 2nd temple and expulsion of Jews from Jerusalem.
Did not write anything about the Herod dynasty.

Philos was alive all thru this period but wrote nothing about these events.

Very funny. Very funny indeed.


Unless u can give me a valid excuse why philos was silent about these major events during his time, u shouldn't ask me about Jesus.

MindHacker9009, explain to me how a Jewish historian did not write about disruptive events that happened during his lifetime in Judea but expect him to write about a rabbi who preached repentance and simple message of God's kingdom.

Did he write about Simon of Peraea who declared himself king of the Jews after the death of Herod the great in 4 bce. Simon led an army against the Roman legion to defend his kingship claim. Simon burnt down palaces and led his army as far as Jericho.

philo was very much active that time. Why didn't he write about his events. Even Tacitus wrote about Simon of Peraea.

Did he even write about the samaritan prophet who claimed to be the prophet spoken about by Moses and led a rebellion against Pontus Pilate in 38 AD.
This Samaritan prophet eventually submitted to Simon Agabus who was written about in the book of Acts.

@SIRTee15 The above are all of Philo's writings we've been given not his full library.

If Josephus truly wrote that Jesus is the Christ, then he would have tried Christianity, instead he only explored these religions:
1) Pharisees
2) Sadducees
3) Essenes and
4) After exploring these, he says he spent three years living in the wilderness with a hermit named:
Banus. Banus lived an extreme ascetic life (minimal clothing, wild food, constant ritual washing).
Only after this did Josephus return to society and choose to live as a Pharisee.

These was all the Jewish historian Josephus in his full library wrote about Jesus Christ:
“At this time there appeared Jesus, a wise man,
for he was a doer of surprising deeds, a teacher of such people as accept the truth gladly.
He won over many Jews and many of the Greeks.
He was the Christ.
And when Pilate, upon an accusation made by the principal men among us, condemned him to the cross,
those who had first come to love him did not cease.
He appeared to them on the third day restored to life,
for the prophets of God had foretold these things and a thousand other marvels about him.
And the tribe of the Christians, so named after him, has still to this day not disappeared.”
“He convened a council of judges and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who is called Christ, whose name was James…”

Why historians think it was edited
The reasoning is based on several lines of evidence:
A) Josephus elsewhere
In other passages, Josephus:
Never confesses belief in Jesus as Messiah
Treats messianic movements critically or politically
Is generally cautious about supernatural claims
B) Early Christian writers

The earliest Christian authors who quote Josephus:
Sometimes do not quote this passage in full
Or show slightly different wording traditions
C) Stylistic mismatch

Certain phrases look more like:
4th-century Christian apologetics
than
1st-century Jewish historiography

And this was what Tacitus in his full library wrote about your Christus:
“Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace.
Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome…”

@SIRTee15

Why would a Jew declare someone who calls himself the Son of God to be the Christ without first exploring the religion for himself, but instead choosing to explore other faiths in Israel and then choosing to live as a Pharisee, instead of becoming a follower of your Christus?

@SIRTee15

I will put it to you again:
Why would a Jew declare someone who calls himself the Son of God to be the Christ without first exploring the religion for himself, but instead choosing to explore other faiths in Israel and then choosing to live as a Pharisee, instead of becoming a follower of your Christus?

MindHacker9009:
@SIRTee15

I will put it to you again:
Why would a Jew declare someone who calls himself the Son of God to be the Christ without first exploring the religion for himself, but instead choosing to explore other faiths in Israel and then choosing to live as a Pharisee, instead of becoming a follower of your Christus?

Joseph never wrote Jesus is the messiah. The word Christ in the writing u are quoting as been deemed an interpolation by historical scholars.

The Arabic version of Josephus testimonium do not have the word Christ.

At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus. And his conduct was good, and [he] was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. And those who had become his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion and that he was alive; accordingly he was perhaps the Messiah concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders.



So if your argument is based on Josephus calling Jesus Christ and he not being a Christian. That has already been resolved within the academic circles.