Who Is God Almighty Apart From His Word? - Christianity Etc (3)

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Re: Who Is God Almighty Apart From His Word? by Truthseeker10: 7:40pm On Jun 05

PSTKYLIFELIGHT:
The simple answer is this:

“Firstborn” is never used in Scripture as a title for the Father because it is a covenant and relational title assigned to the Son in relation to creation and redemption, not a general synonym for “creator” or “source.”

Your comparison does not work because you are flattening different roles into one category.

The Father is consistently described as “from whom are all things.”

The Son is described as the One “through whom are all things.”

Those are not interchangeable roles in the biblical text.

Even if “firstborn” includes ideas like rank, supremacy, or heirship, it is still applied specifically to the Son in relation to creation and resurrection.

So the real issue is not whether the Father is “greater” or “source,” which Scripture already affirms.

The issue is whether the Son is included inside the category of created things.

And that question is not answered by simply swapping titles between persons where Scripture never does so.

Please do not deviate from the topic. We are discussing why Jesus is called "firstborn of creation" and not "firstborn of resurrection".

Below is your answer to why Jesus is called "firstborn of creation" in Colossians 1:15:

"Paul says Christ is firstborn because He is the Creator, Owner, Heir, and Sustainer of creation.".

Kindly tell us the reason why we cannot call the Father the "firstborn of creation" for the very same reason you claimed Paul called Christ " firstborn of creation" above?

Re: Who Is God Almighty Apart From His Word? by MaxInDHouse(m): 7:41pm On Jun 05

PSTKYLIFELIGHT:
Therefore, if someone wishes to place Christ among the things that were made, they must explain how Christ could simultaneously belong to the category of things made and yet be the One without whom nothing in that category was made.

Proverbs 8 22-30 says God Almighty created one person who was with Him until the creation of other things! Colossians 1:15-16

That's what exposes your doctrine and there is no verse in the Bible where God call His worshipers "brothers" neither did God has any God above Him! John 20:17🙂

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Re: Who Is God Almighty Apart From His Word? by Emusan(m): 7:46pm On Jun 05

PSTKYLIFELIGHT:
That is exactly the point.

The discussion should remain focused on what the text actually says, not on assumptions imported into the text.

The scripture says:

"All things were made through Him; and without Him was not any thing made that was made." (John 1:3)

Notice John's careful wording. He does not merely say that many things were made through Christ. He says that nothing that was made came into existence apart from Him.

Therefore, if someone wishes to place Christ among the things that were made, they must explain how Christ could simultaneously belong to the category of things made and yet be the One without whom nothing in that category was made.

That is the question that requires an answer.

Likewise, 1 Corinthians 8:6 says that all things are from the Father and through the Son. Paul is not describing two different creations but one creation, with the Father as the source and the Son as the divine agent.

The more carefully these passages are examined, the more the burden falls on those who argue that Christ is a creature to explain how the Creator Agent of all things can also be counted among the things brought into existence.

I look forward to seeing how they address those texts directly and consistently.

The absurd response you'll get is that Jehovah created Jesus first then use Jesus to create ALL OTHER THINGS.

Firstly, notice that in other to corrupt God's word the word 'OTHER' which was never found in any known Greek manuscripts in possession today was inserted into their ONLY BIBLE translation several times. Which shows the kind of spirit working in them.

Secondly, if Jehovah created Jesus first then Genesis 1:1 will forever be wrong "In the BEGINNING God created the Heavens and the Earth" this is what God reveals to have created IN THE BEGINNING not Jesus. That is why John even placed the existence of the Word who became Flesh known as Jesus IN THE BEGINNING which means The Word witnessed ALL CREATIONS.

Thirdly, let's assume Jesus was created before ALL THINGS, where will Jesus live? Creature needs abode, reason why God created Heaven for Angels and physical word for physical beings. You'll realize that they can't answer you.

In conclusion, the scripture reveals that Jesus is the Creator! Any other interpretation than this is from the pit of hell.

1 Like

Re: Who Is God Almighty Apart From His Word? by plesion: 7:53pm On Jun 05

Truthseeker10:
Please I don't want to get confused and I am not even sure you understand your write up above. So Jehovah clothed himself with a flesh called Jesus?

I do not think that you can understand the whole idea if you only rely on the general terms, without understanding them, and their context. So, it is better to look at the whole context, and see the usage terms in their context. Generally, in the Lord was the Internal Man, or interiors, from Jehovah, and the external man, or the exteriors, from Mary. And this exteriors included the bodily part, but also, as far as I understand, also those things which were adjoined to the internal man from Mary, thus the things related to memory, even some outward intellectual, into which there was the inflowing from the interior man. And so whatever was in the exterior man had to be glorified, or made Divine, and so the Lord made His Rational and Natural Divine, down to the Sensuos and Corporeal, having put away the things from Mary, and having put the things from the Father, from within, in place on them, so in doing this He was God and then complete Divine Man, or the Divine both to the interiors and Exteriors, but now in the Divine Human, not merely the Divine Itself without the Human, but now in the Human of His Own, assumed and glorified.

Thus, Lord and God, God-and-Man.

Re: Who Is God Almighty Apart From His Word? by Truthseeker10: 9:04pm On Jun 05

plesion:
I do not think that you can understand the whole idea if you only rely on the general terms, without understanding them, and their context. So, it is better to look at the whole context, and see the usage terms in their context. Generally, in the Lord was the Internal Man, or interiors, from Jehovah, and the external man, or the exteriors, from Mary. And this exteriors included the bodily part, but also, as far as I understand, also those things which were adjoined to the internal man from Mary, thus the things related to memory, even some outward intellectual, into which there was the inflowing from the interior man. And so whatever was in the exterior man had to be glorified, or made Divine, and so the Lord made His Rational and Natural Divine, down to the Sensuos and Corporeal, having put away the things from Mary, and having put the things from the Father, from within, in place on them, so in doing this He was God and then complete Divine Man, or the Divine both to the interiors and Exteriors, but now in the Divine Human, not merely the Divine Itself without the Human, but now in the Human of His Own, assumed and glorified.

Thus, Lord and God, God-and-Man.

Please kindly quote the verse where you got the information above.

Re: Who Is God Almighty Apart From His Word? by Janosky: 10:01pm On Jun 05

plesion:
There are ways to think of God according to the letter alone, without the spirit, and htere is a way to think of it not from the letter alone, but also from the spirit.

If from a letter alone, then there is one God who sends another God, and then two of those send the third One. So, in thinking, though not in the expression, there is then the idea of the three Gods.

Though as we know there is only one God.

So, then we have not only to read the letter, but also attempt to understand it so that our understanding may agree with both the Word and the sound reason.

In that sense, God Himself, as He is in Himself, or the Infinite, technically cannot come on earth, for then He would either destroy it completely, for then there is no accomodation. And yet we are told in the Old Testament constantly that Jehovah would come to deliver his people.

And thus He comes, but comes in the way that allows to carry out his mission. Thus, He assumes the Human, which is concevied and born of Him.

For those who are interested here is a more detailed explanation:

" 84. God could not have redeemed people, that is, rescued them from damnation and hell, without first taking on a human manifestation. There are many reasons for this; they will be disclosed step by step in what follows. Redemption was a matter of gaining control of the hells, restructuring the heavens, and then establishing a church. Despite his omnipotence, God could not accomplish these things except through his human manifestation, as one cannot do work without arms. In fact, in the Word his human manifestation is called the arm of Jehovah (Isaiah 40:10; 53:1). By analogy, one cannot attack a fortified city and destroy the temples of idols there without powerful means.
The Word as well makes it clear that having a human manifestation gave God the omnipotence to do this divine work. God is in the inmost and purest realms. There was no other way he could cross over to the lowest levels where the hells exist and where people were at that time, just as a soul cannot do anything without a body. By analogy, there is no way to overpower enemies who are not in sight and whom we cannot get close to with weapons such as spears, shields, or guns.
To redeem people without a human manifestation would have been as impossible for God as it would be for someone [outside India] to take control of people in India without sending in troops on ships. It would be as impossible as growing trees on heat and light alone if air had not been created as a medium through which they travel and earth had not been created in which the trees could grow. In fact, it would be as impossible as catching fish by throwing a net in the air and not in the water.
Given Jehovah's inherent nature, despite his omnipotence he could not touch any individual devils in hell or any individual devils on earth and control them or their rage or tame their violence unless he could be as present in the farthest realms as he is in those closest to him. In his human manifestation he is in fact present in the farthest realms. This is why the Word refers to him as the First and the Last, the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End [Revelation 1:8, 11; 21:6; 22:13]." (True Christian Religion).

" 125. That Jehovah God could have entered upon and have accomplished such a work only by means of His Human may be illustrated by various comparisons; as, that one who is invisible cannot shake hands or converse with another until he becomes visible; thus an angel or spirit could have no interaction with a man, even if standing close to his body and before his face. Neither can anyone's soul converse with another or act with another except by means of his body. The sun with its light and heat can enter into man, beast, or tree only by first entering the air and operating through it; or can enter into a fish only by means of the water, since it must act through that element in which the subject resides. No one can scale a fish without a knife, or pluck a crow without fingers; or descend to the bottom of a lake without a diving-bell; in a word, anyone thing must be adapted to another before it can communicate with it or operate with it or against it."

When that mission was accomplished, and the Human was made Divine, the Lord God Jesus Christ is not a God, which is separate from Jehovah God, and the more so it is not those two separate Gods send the third One.

But as it is said: "I and the Father are One". "The one who sees me sees the Father". So, when the Human became Divine, Jehohav God is then seen in the Glorified Human of His Own, and so when we approach the Lord, we approach at the same time the Jehovah in Him, as the Soul int the Body of its own, with that specification, that in the Lord Jesus Christ there is both Divine and Human, and they make one, the Divine Human.

Oga, from where are you getting your lengthy opinion that is conflicting with the spirit inspired teachings that Jesus Christ taught you at John 5:37,43 ,John 3;16 & John 14:24?

Why would God's spirit lead you to contradict the spirit inspired teachings of Jesus Christ?

Which spirit would make you think in conflict against the teaching of Jesus Christ @ John 5:37,43,John 14:24 & John 3:16.

The claim : "God could not have redeemed people......without first taking on human manifestation"

That statement is a subtly coined opposition to John 3:16 & John 5:37,43 & John 1424.

Oga, reason on the truth Jesus taught you,I dey beg you .
Shalom.

Re: Who Is God Almighty Apart From His Word? by Janosky: 10:23pm On Jun 05

PSTKYLIFELIGHT:
That is exactly the point.

The discussion should remain focused on what the text actually says, not on assumptions imported into the text.

The scripture says:

"All things were made through Him; and without Him was not any thing made that was made." (John 1:3)

Notice John's careful wording. He does not merely say that many things were made through Christ. He says that nothing that was made came into existence apart from Him.

Therefore, if someone wishes to place Christ among the things that were made, they must explain how Christ could simultaneously belong to the category of things made and yet be the One without whom nothing in that category was made.

That is the question that requires an answer.

Likewise, 1 Corinthians 8:6 says that all things are from the Father and through the Son. Paul is not describing two different creations but one creation, with the Father as the source and the Son as the divine agent.

The more carefully these passages are examined, the more the burden falls on those who argue that Christ is a creature to explain how the Creator Agent of all things can also be counted among the things brought into existence.

I look forward to seeing how they address those texts directly and consistently.

According to your Bible @Ephesians 4:6 & Ephesians 3:14-15,confirmed by Jesus @ John 20:17 / Hebrews 6:13.

Oga ,why does Jesus & every being in heaven realm & earth realm have the same heavenly Father ?
The word Father in your Bible means "Ancestor/SENIOR".
Does Almighty God, Yahweh have any Father/Ancestor/ Senior in heaven?

Revelation 3:2,21, did Jesus confirm he has the same Ancestor/Father with other beings in heaven?
This brings us to Jesus words at Revelation 3:14, Jesus "is the " arkhe/beginning of the creation by God" (not by Jesus).
Note : Jesus did not say " Archon/ Ruler",it's not in Revelation 3:14.

Re: Who Is God Almighty Apart From His Word? by Janosky: 10:28pm On Jun 05

PSTKYLIFELIGHT:
That is exactly the point.

The discussion should remain focused on what the text actually says, not on assumptions imported into the text.

The scripture says:

"All things were made through Him; and without Him was not any thing made that was made." (John 1:3)

Notice John's careful wording. He does not merely say that many things were made through Christ. He says that nothing that was made came into existence apart from Him.

Therefore, if someone wishes to place Christ among the things that were made, they must explain how Christ could simultaneously belong to the category of things made and yet be the One without whom nothing in that category was made.

That is the question that requires an answer.

Likewise, 1 Corinthians 8:6 says that all things are from the Father and through the Son. Paul is not describing two different creations but one creation, with the Father as the source and the Son as the divine agent.

The more carefully these passages are examined, the more the burden falls on those who argue that Christ is a creature to explain how the Creator Agent of all things can also be counted among the things brought into existence.

I look forward to seeing how they address those texts directly and consistently.

According to your Bible @Ephesians 4:6 & Ephesians 3:14-15,confirmed by Jesus @ John 20:17 / Hebrews 6:13.

Oga ,why does Jesus & every being in heaven realm & earth realm have the same heavenly Father ?
The word Father in your Bible means "Ancestor/SENIOR".
Does Almighty God, Yahweh have any Father/Ancestor/ Senior in heaven?
No.

Revelation 3:2,21, did Jesus confirm he has the same Ancestor/Father with other beings in heaven?
This brings us to Jesus words at Revelation 3:14, Jesus "is the " arkhe/beginning of the creation by God" (not creation by Jesus).
Note : Jesus did not say " Archon/ Ruler",it's not in Revelation 3:14.
Jesus is a Creature with a Father,Yahweh.
Yahweh is not a creature,but rather,Yahweh is the Father /Ancestor of ALL beings in heaven & earth.

Re: Who Is God Almighty Apart From His Word? by Janosky: 10:37pm On Jun 05

Emusan:
The absurd response you'll get is that Jehovah created Jesus first then use Jesus to create ALL OTHER THINGS.

Firstly, notice that in other to corrupt God's word the word 'OTHER' which was never found in any known Greek manuscripts in possession today was inserted into their ONLY BIBLE translation several times. Which shows the kind of spirit working in them.

Secondly, if Jehovah created Jesus first then Genesis 1:1 will forever be wrong [b]"In the BEGINNING God created the Heavens and the Earth" this is what God reveals to have created IN THE BEGINNING not Jesus. That is why John even placed the existence of the Word who became Flesh known as Jesus IN THE BEGINNING which means The Word witnessed ALL CREATIONS.[/b]

Thirdly, let's assume Jesus was created before ALL THINGS, where will Jesus live? Creature needs abode, reason why God created Heaven for Angels and physical word for physical beings. You'll realize that they can't answer you.

In conclusion, the scripture reveals that Jesus is the Creator! Any other interpretation than this is from the pit of hell.

Did Jesus have the same Father /Ancestor with other beings in heaven?

Why?
Hebrews 6:13, 1 Corinthians 8:6 God created EVERYTHING ,Jesus is NOT excluded.
Go and find out the meaning of ancestor in your Bible & stop deceiving yourself.
1 Corinthians 3:23, Jesus belongs to God.
God owns Jesus.
Nobody owns God our heavenly Father & the Father of Jesus in heaven.
"Archon/Ruler of creation by jesus" is NOT at Rev 3:14.
Jesus is " the Arkhe /Beginning of creation by Gid" is at Rev 3:14.

Oga, get this info internalized in your memory.

Re: Who Is God Almighty Apart From His Word? by Emusan(m): 8:52am On Jun 06

Janosky:
Did Jesus have the same Father /Ancestor with other beings in heaven?

So, how the Father senior Jesus if they are not of the same ORIGIN?

At least you're the one who claimed Father means SENIOR.

Why?
Hebrews 6:13, 1 Corinthians 8:6 God created EVERYTHING ,Jesus is NOT excluded.

No! The scripture says, ALL THINGS are created by Jesus and WITHOUT HIM(Jesus) NOTHING was created.

Do you mean Jesus created Himself?

Go and find out the meaning of ancestor in your Bible & stop deceiving yourself.

Just tell me how Father means SENIOR if Jesus and God not from the same ORIGIN.

1 Corinthians 3:23, Jesus belongs to God.
God owns Jesus.

How The Father means SENIOR if Jesus and God not from the same SOURCE?

Nobody owns God our heavenly Father & the Father of Jesus in heaven.

Father means SENIOR according to you.

How can the Father senior Jesus if they are not of the same SOURCE?

At least, you're the one who brought that claim of seniority.

"Archon/Ruler of creation by jesus" is NOT at Rev 3:14.
Jesus is " the Arkhe /Beginning of creation by Gid" is at Rev 3:14.

So God was lying in Genesis 1:1 that what He created IN THE BEGINNING was Heavens and the Earth.

Continue.

Oga, get this info internalized in your memory.

Just cool down, you know how it normally ends.

1 Like

Re: Who Is God Almighty Apart From His Word? by PSTKYLIFELIGHT(op): 11:54am On Jun 06

Truthseeker10:
Please do not deviate from the topic. We are discussing why Jesus is called "firstborn of creation" and not "firstborn of resurrection".

Below is your answer to why Jesus is called "firstborn of creation" in Colossians 1:15:

"Paul says Christ is firstborn because He is the Creator, Owner, Heir, and Sustainer of creation.".

Kindly tell us the reason why we cannot call the Father the "firstborn of creation" for the very same reason you claimed Paul called Christ " firstborn of creation" above?

Because "firstborn" is not a title Paul gives to everyone who creates.

It is a title Paul specifically gives to the Son.

The Father is the source of creation. The Son is the heir, image, and mediator of creation.

So the question is not, "Could the Father theoretically be called firstborn?"

The question is, "Why did Paul choose to call the Son firstborn?"

Paul's own explanation is found in verses 16 and 17, where he connects the title to the Son's supremacy over creation, not to the Father.

In other words, the Father is not called "firstborn" simply because Scripture never assigns that title to Him.

1 Like

Re: Who Is God Almighty Apart From His Word? by PSTKYLIFELIGHT(op): 11:57am On Jun 06

MaxInDHouse:
Proverbs 8 22-30 says God Almighty created one person who was with Him until the creation of other things! Colossians 1:15-16

That's what exposes your doctrine and there is no verse in the Bible where God call His worshipers "brothers" neither did God has any God above Him! John 20:17🙂

Your argument assumes three things that have not been proven.

First, Proverbs 8 never says, "This is Jesus Christ." The chapter is about wisdom personified. Before using it as proof of Christ's creation, you must first prove that Solomon intended Proverbs 8 to be a literal biography of the preincarnate Son.

Second, Colossians 1:15–16 does not say that Christ was created and then created everything else. That idea is not in the text. Paul says all things were created through Him and for Him. The word "other" does not appear in the Greek text.

Third, John 20:17 presents no difficulty. After His resurrection, Jesus speaks as the incarnate and glorified Son. Christians have always affirmed that, in His humanity, Jesus could say, "My God."

The real question remains unanswered:

If Christ is a created being, how can John 1:3 say that "without Him was not anything made that was made"?

John divides reality into two categories:

Things that were made.

The One through whom they were made.

Where does John place Christ?

According to the text, not among the things that were made, but as the One through whom they came into existence.

1 Like

Re: Who Is God Almighty Apart From His Word? by PSTKYLIFELIGHT(op): 12:01pm On Jun 06

Emusan:
The absurd response you'll get is that Jehovah created Jesus first then use Jesus to create ALL OTHER THINGS.

Firstly, notice that in other to corrupt God's word the word 'OTHER' which was never found in any known Greek manuscripts in possession today was inserted into their ONLY BIBLE translation several times. Which shows the kind of spirit working in them.

Secondly, if Jehovah created Jesus first then Genesis 1:1 will forever be wrong "In the BEGINNING God created the Heavens and the Earth" this is what God reveals to have created IN THE BEGINNING not Jesus. That is why John even placed the existence of the Word who became Flesh known as Jesus IN THE BEGINNING which means The Word witnessed ALL CREATIONS.

Thirdly, let's assume Jesus was created before ALL THINGS, where will Jesus live? Creature needs abode, reason why God created Heaven for Angels and physical word for physical beings. You'll realize that they can't answer you.

In conclusion, the scripture reveals that Jesus is the Creator! Any other interpretation than this is from the pit of hell.

Excellent observations.

The insertion of "other" into Colossians 1:16 is indeed a major issue because the argument depends upon a word that is absent from the Greek text. If Paul intended "all other things," he could easily have written it. Instead, he wrote "all things."

Your point about Genesis 1:1 is also worth considering. Scripture identifies the beginning as the creation of the heavens and the earth. Yet John deliberately takes us back to that same beginning and says:

"In the beginning was the Word."

John does not say, "In the beginning the Word came into existence." He says, "In the beginning was the Word."

The Word is already there when the beginning arrives.

And then John adds:

"All things were made through Him."

That creates a distinction between the Word and the things that came into being.

The burden therefore remains on those who claim that Christ is a creature to identify where Scripture explicitly says He was created.

Not assumed.

Not inferred.

Not imported from a disputed interpretation of Proverbs 8.

Explicitly stated.

Meanwhile, John 1:3, Colossians 1:16 to 17, Hebrews 1:2, and Hebrews 1:10 consistently place the Son on the Creator side of the Creator creation distinction.

The discussion has been useful because it keeps bringing everyone back to the text itself. Ultimately, every interpretation must account for all the relevant passages, not just one phrase in isolation.

The scripture presents the Father as the source of all things, and the Son as the One through whom all things came into existence. That is a far greater description than that of a created being.

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Re: Who Is God Almighty Apart From His Word? by PSTKYLIFELIGHT(op): 12:03pm On Jun 06

Janosky:
Oga, from where are you getting your lengthy opinion that is conflicting with the spirit inspired teachings that Jesus Christ taught you at John 5:37,43 ,John 3;16 & John 14:24?

Why would God's spirit lead you to contradict the spirit inspired teachings of Jesus Christ?

Which spirit would make you think in conflict against the teaching of Jesus Christ @ John 5:37,43,John 14:24 & John 3:16.

The claim : "God could not have redeemed people......without first taking on human manifestation"

That statement is a subtly coined opposition to John 3:16 & John 5:37,43 & John 1424.

Oga, reason on the truth Jesus taught you,I dey beg you .
Shalom.

Well said, my brother.

The safest approach is to let the words of THE LORD JESUS CHRIST speak for themselves.

At John 3:16, JESUS said GOD sent HIS Son.

At John 5:37, JESUS said the Father had not been seen or heard.

At John 5:43, JESUS said, "I have come in My Father's name."

At John 14:24, JESUS said, "The word which ye hear is not Mine, but the Father's which sent Me."

These statements consistently distinguish the Sender from the One sent.

Whatever doctrine we build must harmonize with the plain teaching of CHRIST Himself.

When a theological system begins to reinterpret the Father's sending of the Son into the Father sending Himself, or turns the Son into merely another mode of the Father, it is fair to ask whether the doctrine is arising from the text or being imposed upon it.

The best course is exactly what you have suggested: return to the teachings of JESUS, examine them carefully, and allow Scripture to define its own terms.

Shalom.

1 Like

Re: Who Is God Almighty Apart From His Word? by PSTKYLIFELIGHT(op): 12:07pm On Jun 06

Janosky:

Did Jesus have the same Father /Ancestor with other beings in heaven?

Why?
Hebrews 6:13, 1 Corinthians 8:6 God created EVERYTHING ,Jesus is NOT excluded.
Go and find out the meaning of ancestor in your Bible & stop deceiving yourself.
1 Corinthians 3:23, Jesus belongs to God.
God owns Jesus.
Nobody owns God our heavenly Father & the Father of Jesus in heaven.
"Archon/Ruler of creation by jesus" is NOT at Rev 3:14.
Jesus is " the Arkhe /Beginning of creation by Gid" is at Rev 3:14.

Oga, get this info internalized in your memory.

My friend, repeating an assertion is not the same as proving it.

You say 1 Corinthians 8:6 proves Jesus is included among the things created. Yet the verse says:

"All things are from the Father" and "all things are through the Son."

If you insist that Christ is included in the "all things," then you must explain how Christ came into existence through Christ. The text itself creates a problem for your interpretation.

You cite 1 Corinthians 3:23, "Christ is God's." Of course Christ belongs to God. No Christian disputes that. The Son's relationship to the Father is taught throughout Scripture. But belonging to the Father does not make the Son a creature. By that logic, because believers belong to Christ, believers would become nonhuman. The conclusion does not follow from the premise.

As for Revelation 3:14, everyone agrees the word is "arche." The dispute is over its meaning in context. You keep assuming that "arche" must mean "first creature," but that is precisely what remains unproven.

Most importantly, your interpretation still has not answered John 1:3:

"Without Him was not anything made that was made."

John divides reality into two groups:

1. Things that were made.
2. The One through whom they were made.

The question remains simple:

In which group does John place the Word?

Until that question is answered consistently, merely repeating "arche means beginning" does not settle the matter.

The debate is not won by asserting that Christ is created. It is won by demonstrating that all the relevant texts support that conclusion without contradiction.

1 Like

Re: Who Is God Almighty Apart From His Word? by PSTKYLIFELIGHT(op): 12:08pm On Jun 06

Janosky:
According to your Bible @Ephesians 4:6 & Ephesians 3:14-15,confirmed by Jesus @ John 20:17 / Hebrews 6:13.

Oga ,why does Jesus & every being in heaven realm & earth realm have the same heavenly Father ?
The word Father in your Bible means "Ancestor/SENIOR".
Does Almighty God, Yahweh have any Father/Ancestor/ Senior in heaven?
No.

Revelation 3:2,21, did Jesus confirm he has the same Ancestor/Father with other beings in heaven?
This brings us to Jesus words at Revelation 3:14, Jesus "is the " arkhe/beginning of the creation by God" (not creation by Jesus).
Note : Jesus did not say " Archon/ Ruler",it's not in Revelation 3:14.
Jesus is a Creature with a Father,Yahweh.
Yahweh is not a creature,but rather,Yahweh is the Father /Ancestor of ALL beings in heaven & earth.

My friend, you keep repeating the conclusion instead of proving it.

No Christian denies that the Father is the Father of all, nor that Jesus refers to the Father as "My God" and "My Father." The question is whether those facts prove that Christ is a creature. They do not.

Your argument depends entirely on the assumption that having the Father as Father automatically places Jesus in the same category as created beings. Yet Scripture never makes that argument.

More importantly, you have still not reconciled your interpretation with John 1:3:

"Without Him was not anything made that was made."

John does not say, "Without Him all other things were made."

He says, "Without Him was not anything made that was made."

So I will ask again:

Was Jesus "made"?

If your answer is yes, then He belongs to the category of things that were made.

But John says nothing in that category came into existence apart from Him.

How then was Jesus made?

By Himself?

Through Himself?

Without Himself?

Every option creates a contradiction.

As for Revelation 3:14, you keep asserting that "arche" must mean "first creature." But an assertion is not an argument. The word itself does not settle the debate. Context does.

And the same apostle who wrote Revelation 3:14 also wrote John 1:1 to 3.

Therefore, any interpretation of "arche" that contradicts John 1:3 cannot be the correct interpretation.

The issue is not whether the Father is the Father of Jesus.

The issue is whether the Son belongs to the class of created things.

That remains the very point your argument has yet to demonstrate from the text.

1 Like

Re: Who Is God Almighty Apart From His Word? by plesion: 1:01pm On Jun 06

Truthseeker10:
Please kindly quote the verse where you got the information above.

That arises out of the detailed explanation of the sense of the letter of the Word as to its interiors, and out of the explanation what is implied by the various ideas.

For instance, the idea that the Lord has assumed a Human, that is, He was born as a Man, implies that which is involved in the idea of man, and then man involves the rational (broadly speaking), or the intellectual part, and the natural (or the part, which relates to the daily activities, outward desires, which has their inward and outward as well), and also involves the lowest of the natural mind, which is sensuos, and corporeal.
And when the Lord was glorified, it is not simply the word without meaning, or some kind of glorification that is given to this kind of this world, but that means that He became Divine, that is, that His Human became Divine, that is, whatever was in that human became Divine, thus related to those things that were spoken about in the previous message. With regard to the very general ideas, it is clear that His Human became Divien, because after the Ressurection He was seen passing through the walls, which no material human body can do, thus it was Divine. But not only the Body but everything within Him. Thus, as we are told, in the Lord "dwells all the Divinity of the God/Godhead bodily"

Re: Who Is God Almighty Apart From His Word? by plesion: 1:10pm On Jun 06

Janosky:
Oga, from where are you getting your lengthy opinion that is conflicting with the spirit inspired teachings that Jesus Christ taught you at John 5:37,43 ,John 3;16 & John 14:24?

Why would God's spirit lead you to contradict the spirit inspired teachings of Jesus Christ?

Which spirit would make you think in conflict against the teaching of Jesus Christ @ John 5:37,43,John 14:24 & John 3:16.

The claim : "God could not have redeemed people......without first taking on human manifestation"

That statement is a subtly coined opposition to John 3:16 & John 5:37,43 & John 1424.

Oga, reason on the truth Jesus taught you,I dey beg you .
Shalom.

There is an idea of the Word that noone can see God and live.

Exodus: "And He said, “Thou canst not see My face, for there shall no man see Me and live.”

We are told in the proverb in the Gospel, that Jehohav was sending the prophets/messenger, but they were not heard, and so ultimately there was no other way but to send his Son.

The point being that Jehovah, as He is in Himself, being the Infinite, cannot come close without accomodation, otherwise everything will perish, will not live.

Thus, when it was still possible, and the Judaic Church was able to receive the instructions, the prophets were sent. But then the state of the church was so low, and considering the role that the church of the Lord plays in the whole universe, if Jehovah did not come into the world everything would have perished, first spiritually, then possibly, even naturally.

But again, He cannot come as He is in Himself, but He can come in the Human, which was conceived and born of Him. That is explained in the a few posts, as to how that Human was positioned in relation to the Divine in Itself, or Jehovah in Itself.

And so, in that regard, the Lord was thus able to go through trials, and in victory, restore everything to order.

Re: Who Is God Almighty Apart From His Word? by Truthseeker10: 1:25pm On Jun 06

PSTKYLIFELIGHT:
Because "firstborn" is not a title Paul gives to everyone who creates.

It is a title Paul specifically gives to the Son.

The Father is the source of creation. The Son is the heir, image, and mediator of creation.

So the question is not, "Could the Father theoretically be called firstborn?"

The question is, "Why did Paul choose to call the Son firstborn?"

Paul's own explanation is found in verses 16 and 17, where he connects the title to the Son's supremacy over creation, not to the Father.

In other words, the Father is not called "firstborn" simply because Scripture never assigns that title to Him.

Please don't be dubious and deceptive.
Below is your statement for the reason why Paul called Jesus "firstborn of creation":

"Paul says Christ is firstborn because He is the Creator, Owner, Heir, and Sustainer of creation.".

So out of all the reasons that you claimed paul stated in colossians 1:16, 17, the only reason that we cannot call the Father "firstborn of creation" is because he is not a "heir"?

Re: Who Is God Almighty Apart From His Word? by achorladey: 1:26pm On Jun 06

Emusan:
According to your own logic.

If Father means SENIOR, isn't that means both the Father and the Son are from the same SOURCE?

Or are you a senior to a Goat or Pig?

Loooooool to the bold. Una no go unalive person for here cheesy

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Re: Who Is God Almighty Apart From His Word? by Truthseeker10: 1:28pm On Jun 06

plesion:
That arises out of the detailed explanation of the sense of the letter of the Word as to its interiors, and out of the explanation what is implied by the various ideas.

For instance, the idea that the Lord has assumed a Human, that is, He was born as a Man, implies that which is involved in the idea of man, and then man involves the rational (broadly speaking), or the intellectual part, and the natural (or the part, which relates to the daily activities, outward desires, which has their inward and outward as well), and also involves the lowest of the natural mind, which is sensuos, and corporeal.
And when the Lord was glorified, it is not simply the word without meaning, or some kind of glorification that is given to this kind of this world, but that means that He became Divine, that is, that His Human became Divine, that is, whatever was in that human became Divine, thus related to those things that were spoken about in the previous message. With regard to the very general ideas, it is clear that His Human became Divien, because after the Ressurection He was seen passing through the walls, which no material human body can do, thus it was Divine. But not only the Body but everything within Him. Thus, as we are told, in the Lord "dwells all the Divinity of the God/Godhead bodily"

I simply asked you for a verse and you are giving me further stories. Is it that you did not find the stories in scripture?

Re: Who Is God Almighty Apart From His Word? by achorladey: 1:28pm On Jun 06

Emusan:
You will they won't answer any of your questions but come with another mombo jumbo

That guy dey act like one Michael547. You bet they are masters of rolling out monikers of various kinds on nairaland and they point fingers at others over their cunning ways cheesy

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Re: Who Is God Almighty Apart From His Word? by PSTKYLIFELIGHT(op): 1:29pm On Jun 06

1. Do not let a single word carry the entire doctrine.
Terms like “firstborn” (Colossians 1:15) or “arche” (Revelation 3:14) must be read in their full sentence, paragraph, and book context, not isolated.

2. Distinguish assertion from proof.
Repeating “Jesus is a creature” or “Jesus is Creator” is not an argument. The text itself must explicitly or logically support the claim.

3. Always harmonize Scripture with Scripture.
Any interpretation of Revelation 3:14 must be consistent with John 1:1–3, Colossians 1:16–17, and Hebrews 1:2. If it creates contradiction, it is likely a misreading.

4. Be careful with English glosses.
Words like “other” or interpretive labels can influence meaning. Always check whether they are actually present in the Greek text or added by translators.

5. Avoid collapsing categories.
“Father as source,” “Son as agent,” and “creation as effect” are distinct biblical roles. Mixing them without distinction leads to confusion.

6. Do not redefine key terms mid-argument.
If “firstborn” is defined as “first created,” that definition must be proven from Scripture usage, not assumed for convenience.

7. Let difficult verses be interpreted by clearer ones.
Passages about creation through Christ are clearer than disputed lexical debates. Use clearer texts to interpret ambiguous ones, not the reverse.

8. Maintain textual consistency over rhetorical pressure.
Strong language or emotional conclusions (“pit of hell,” etc.) are not substitutes for exegesis. Stick to what the text actually states.

The goal in theological discussion is not victory in argumentation, but consistency with the full witness of Scripture.

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Re: Who Is God Almighty Apart From His Word? by PSTKYLIFELIGHT(op): 1:35pm On Jun 06

Truthseeker10:
Please don't be dubious and deceptive.
Below is your statement for the reason why Paul called Jesus "firstborn of creation":

"Paul says Christ is firstborn because He is the Creator, Owner, Heir, and Sustainer of creation.".

So out of all the reasons that you claimed paul stated in colossians 1:16, 17, the only reason that we cannot call the Father "firstborn of creation" is because he is not a "heir"?

That objection misunderstands both the argument and the text.

No, the reason is not “inheritance alone,” and that is not what was claimed.

The point is this: Paul never uses “firstborn” as a generic label for “creator, owner, or sustainer.” He uses it as a Messianic and relational title applied to the Son in relation to creation and redemption, and he immediately defines it in the context of the Son being the agent and goal of creation (Colossians 1:16–17).

Now to your question directly:

The Father is not called “firstborn of creation” not because He lacks inheritance, but because Scripture never assigns Him that role or relational position in relation to creation. The Father is consistently described as the source “from whom” all things are, while the Son is the one “through whom” all things are.

“Firstborn” in Colossians 1:15 is not a reusable title you can freely apply to any divine person who creates. It is tied to Paul’s Christology: the Son is the image of God, the agent of creation, and the preeminent heir over creation.

So the issue is not “one missing attribute.”

The issue is different biblical roles that are not interchangeable in the text.

Re: Who Is God Almighty Apart From His Word? by achorladey: 1:35pm On Jun 06

PSTKYLIFELIGHT:
That is exactly the point.

The discussion should remain focused on what the text actually says, not on assumptions imported into the text.

The scripture says:

"All things were made through Him; and without Him was not any thing made that was made." (John 1:3)

Notice John's careful wording. He does not merely say that many things were made through Christ. He says that nothing that was made came into existence apart from Him.

Therefore, if someone wishes to place Christ among the things that were made, they must explain how Christ could simultaneously belong to the category of things made and yet be the One without whom nothing in that category was made.

That is the question that requires an answer.

Likewise, 1 Corinthians 8:6 says that all things are from the Father and through the Son. Paul is not describing two different creations but one creation, with the Father as the source and the Son as the divine agent.

The more carefully these passages are examined, the more the burden falls on those who argue that Christ is a creature to explain how the Creator Agent of all things can also be counted among the things brought into existence.

I look forward to seeing how they address those texts directly and consistently.

Hope you know you are dealing with Jehovah's witnesses who not only refuse to answer your questions but are very very good in assuming non existent things into the scriptures and then label those who don't accept their viewpoints as false Christians grin

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Re: Who Is God Almighty Apart From His Word? by achorladey: 1:37pm On Jun 06

Truthseeker10:
Please do not deviate from the topic. We are discussing why Jesus is called "firstborn of creation" and not "firstborn of resurrection".

Below is your answer to why Jesus is called "firstborn of creation" in Colossians 1:15:

"Paul says Christ is firstborn because He is the Creator, Owner, Heir, and Sustainer of creation.".

Kindly tell us the reason why we cannot call the Father the "firstborn of creation" for the very same reason you claimed Paul called Christ " firstborn of creation" above?

A wonderful discussion where you can't attempt his questions after he had done so repeatedly to yours grin

Re: Who Is God Almighty Apart From His Word? by Emusan(m): 1:39pm On Jun 06

PSTKYLIFELIGHT:
And the same apostle who wrote Revelation 3:14 also wrote John 1:1 to 3.

Therefore, any interpretation of "arche" that contradicts John 1:3 cannot be the correct interpretation.

The issue is not whether the Father is the Father of Jesus.

The issue is whether the Son belongs to the class of created things.

On the issue of 'arche' he's being insincere.

That is why, he'll be jumping around with different screenshot.

Arche means ORIGIN, SOURCE, RULER e.t.c that is why some translations put it this way

CSB “...the originator of God’s creation"
CEV "I am the faithful and true witness and the source of God's creation. Listen to what I say."
EASY "...Everything that God has created starts with me."
GNT “...who is the origin of all that God has created."

Re: Who Is God Almighty Apart From His Word? by PSTKYLIFELIGHT(op): 1:40pm On Jun 06

achorladey:
Hope you know you are dealing with Jehovah's witnesses who not only refuse to answer your questions but are very very good in assuming non existent things into the scriptures and then label those who don't accept their viewpoints as false Christians

It is better to keep this discussion anchored in Scripture rather than labels or assumptions about people.

The real issue here is not who is “refusing to answer,” but whether the interpretation being proposed actually matches the biblical text in context.

A serious reading of Colossians 1:15–17, John 1:1–3, and Hebrews 1:2 requires us to follow the logic of the passages carefully, not insert conclusions that are not stated in the text.

If a claim is made, it should be supported directly from Scripture, not inferred from assumptions about what a word “must mean” in isolation.

At the same time, discussion should remain respectful. The goal is understanding, not winning arguments or assigning motives to those who disagree.

Truth is best served when both sides stay with the text, examine context carefully, and avoid adding ideas that are not explicitly or logically present in the passage.

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Re: Who Is God Almighty Apart From His Word? by Emusan(m): 1:42pm On Jun 06

achorladey:
That guy dey act like one Michael547. You bet they are masters of rolling out monikers of various kinds on nairaland and they point fingers at others over their cunning ways

It's the same guy with another moniker Truth something something grin

It's one of his loudmouthed brothers that burst that cover up grin

1 Like

Re: Who Is God Almighty Apart From His Word? by MaxInDHouse(m): 1:43pm On Jun 06

PSTKYLIFELIGHT:
It is better to keep this discussion anchored in Scripture rather than labels or assumptions about people.

Jehovah's Witnesses are the only group who have deep interest in God's word but if anyone from another religion feel like disputing what i just said ask them to mention the name of their own church instead of arguing without telling us where the argument is coming from!🙂

Re: Who Is God Almighty Apart From His Word? by achorladey: 1:45pm On Jun 06

Emusan:
It's the same guy with another moniker Truth something something

It's one of his loudmouthed brothers that burst that cover up

I see, e no dey take time before dem blow up their cover. grin

1 Like

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