₦airaland Forum

Muslims argue Islam is not a new religion but it's the religion of previous prophets. They argue Abraham, Moses and Jesus were all Muslims. They also claim Muhammed is a prophet in line with previous prophet with the same belief.

What we know from the historical source and epistemology is that all previous prophets worshipped the God whose personal name is YAHWEH- I AM THAT I AM.
Abraham, Moses, Jesus and all the previous prophets called upon the name of the God known as YAHWEH, the only exception is Muhammed who insisted God's personal name is Allah. The problem is the etymology of the name Allah is not the same as YAHWEH, they have different meaning.
Muslims cannot claim the name YAHWEH is a corruption because the name of Allah's prophet mentioned in the bible are derived from YAHWEH.
example is Elijah. Elias in arabic and Eliyahu in hebrew. Eliyahu means MY GOD IS YAHWEH .
Another example is Zechariah, written as Zakariyya in both arabic and hebrew. Zakariyya means YAHWEH REMEMBERS.

There is no doubt the previous prophets before Muhammed called upon the name of God as YHWH.


Now my question is can Muslims say with confidence that ALLAH IS THE SAME GOD AS YAHWEH.

If Muhammed actually called upon the same God as Eliyahu and Zakariyya, can Muslims say with confidence that the God they worship called ALLAH is the same God called YAHWEH.
IS ALLAH ALSO YAHWEH?

If Muslims insist Allah is not YHWH, then how come the previous prophets in their own Quran has names that acknowledged YHWH is the God they worship. How can Muhammed and Elijah worship different gods yet Muslims insist they have the same religion.

If Muslims are not sure Allah is YHWH, how can Muslims be sure the same God that spoke to Moses spoke to Muhammed?

Finally, if Muslims acknowledge Allah is also YHWH, then can we call Allah YHWH. Can I decide to call the muslim God YHWH instead of Allah? if the answer is no, why?

Pls note I didn't bring up the bible at all, so dont come up with bible is corrupt narration. Thanks as we brainstorm on this simple straightforward question.

Dfrhhdhb wgrvev dwf f d d

Yahweh get sons but allah don't have while allah get slaves in which Yahweh don't have

According to the prophet (Peace be unto him) Allah is One. Allah is not human being to procreate.

Surah Al-Ikhlas (112:1-4)112:1: "Say, 'He is Allah, [who is] One.'"112:2: "Allah, the Eternal Refuge."112:3: "He neither begets nor is born."112:4: "Nor is there to Him any equivalent.

This sums everything up. I think it is khati'ah to say that Allah has a child.

Fataileke:
According to the prophet (Peace be unto him) Allah is One. Allah is not human being to procreate.

Surah Al-Ikhlas (112:1-4)112:1: "Say, 'He is Allah, [who is] One.'"112:2: "Allah, the Eternal Refuge."112:3: "He neither begets nor is born."112:4: "Nor is there to Him any equivalent.

This sums everything up. I think it is khati'ah to say that Allah has a child.

This thread is not about whether God has a son or child.

This is about the God the old testament prophets worshipped.

They worshipped a God called YHWH. Is YHWH same God as Allah

I recall this point being raised by you in one of your earlier posts from months ago, although I haven't been able to locate the exact post to link here. From the Islamic perspective, YHWH and Allah refer to the same Creator worshipped by Abraham, Moses, and the other prophets. The real disagreement isn't who they worshipped, but how later traditions came to understand and describe Him.

honesttalk21:
I recall this point being raised by you in one of your earlier posts from months ago, although I haven't been able to locate the exact post to link here. From the Islamic perspective, YHWH and Allah refer to the same Creator worshipped by Abraham, Moses, and the other prophets. The real disagreement isn't who they worshipped, but how later traditions came to understand and describe Him.

So YHWH and Allah is the same God?

Yes. Islam teaches they refer to the same Creator, though Muslims differ from Jews and Christians on His nature and attributes.

Does the Bible use other names or titles for God besides YHWH?

SIRTee15:
So YHWH and Allah is the same God?

honesttalk21:
Yes. Islam teaches they refer to the same Creator, though Muslims differ from Jews and Christians on His nature and attributes.

Does the Bible use other names or titles for God besides YHWH?

Good I'm very happy to hear u guy worship YHWH.
So in Islam, what does YHWH mean?

honesttalk21:
Yes. Islam teaches they refer to the same Creator, though Muslims differ from Jews and Christians on His nature and attributes.

Does the Bible use other names or titles for God besides YHWH?

In this time and age, someone should be making such fallacious claims🥱.

I guess I am the Gabriel being referred to in the bible because obviously I am named Gabriel.

I also guess that Sango and Yahweh are the same, Or, perhaps, Zeus is the same as Yahweh👀. Absolutely, ludicrous.

By the way, the only way Yahweh and Allah can be the same is if God was schizophrenic.🤧

Can you help me understand your objection in light of the exchange with SIRTee15?
I was simply explaining the Islamic position in response to his questions. If you think saying YHWH and Allah refer to the same God is as absurd as equating YHWH with Zeus or Sango, are you saying that's what Islam actually teaches, or are you rejecting Islam's claim that Allah is the same Creator worshipped by Abraham, Moses, and the other prophets? I'm asking because your response seems to be arguing against something I wasn't actually claiming.

Gabrielshow26:
In this time and age, someone should be making such fallacious claims🥱.

I guess I am the Gabriel being referred to in the bible because obviously I am named Gabriel.

I also guess that Sango and Yahweh are the same, Or, perhaps, Zeus is the same as Yahweh👀. Absolutely, ludicrous.

By the way, the only way Yahweh and Allah can be the same is if God was schizophrenic.🤧

honesttalk21:
Can you help me understand your objection in light of the exchange with SIRTee15?
I was simply explaining the Islamic position in response to his questions. If you think saying YHWH and Allah refer to the same God is as absurd as equating YHWH with Zeus or Sango, are you saying that's what Islam actually teaches, or are you rejecting Islam's claim that Allah is the same Creator worshipped by Abraham, Moses, and the other prophets? I'm asking because your response seems to be arguing against something I wasn't actually claiming.

Will it be appropriate for a Muslim to say Yahwehu Akbar in the salat? If not, why not

Fataileke:
According to the prophet (Peace be unto him) Allah is One. Allah is not human being to procreate.

Surah Al-Ikhlas (112:1-4)112:1: "Say, 'He is Allah, [who is] One.'"112:2: "Allah, the Eternal Refuge."112:3: "He neither begets nor is born."112:4: "Nor is there to Him any equivalent.

This sums everything up. I think it is khati'ah to say that Allah has a child.

The question is :
Is Allah the same Identity or Person as YHWH?

You didn't answer that: all you said is that Allah is one.

Is Iblis not also one? So, what is special in Allah being one. I am one too: does that make me an Allah the same?

Allah is not even actually one: Allah is AHAD meaning One of several! Mohammed copied the Jewish Shema without comprehension. Ahad doesn't mean ONE, it means "On of"

On the qualities of Allah, these are mere CLAIMS except if you can show a single instance apart from these claims that Allah is without equivalent as I just showed you that the ONENESS of Iblis and the Oneness of Allah is exactly the same.


YHWH is a Spirit.
YHWH is ONE Being
YHWH is THREE Persons
YHWH is Fully Omnipresent
YHWH is Fully Omniscient
YHWH is Fully Omnipotent

Is Allah any of these?



Over to you!

Step ONE: Basic Questions

honesttalk21:
Can you help me understand your objection in light of the exchange with SIRTee15?
I was simply explaining the Islamic position in response to his questions. If you think saying YHWH and Allah refer to the same God is as absurd as equating YHWH with Zeus or Sango, are you saying that's what Islam actually teaches, or are you rejecting Islam's claim that Allah is the same Creator worshipped by Abraham, Moses, and the other prophets? I'm asking because your response seems to be arguing against something I wasn't actually claiming.

honesttalk21:
I recall this point being raised by you in one of your earlier posts from months ago, although I haven't been able to locate the exact post to link here. From the Islamic perspective, YHWH and Allah refer to the same Creator worshipped by Abraham, Moses, and the other prophets. The real disagreement isn't who they worshipped, but how later traditions came to understand and describe Him.

Here are questions to unveils the fundamental beliefs of Muslims with respect to their God Allah. Can you please respond clearly with respect to your Qur'an (knowing that sects like Muʿtazila, Jahmiyya, Karramiyya , Ismaili Shiʿism, Alawites (Nusayris) and Shia Muslims exist).




Can you also kindly respond to these short answer questions for us to be on the same page?
1. If someone claims that he worships ONE God as the Creator but the name of his God is NOT Allah, is such a person a Muslim?

2. If someone claims that he worships ONE God as the Creator but the attributes of his God is different from the Attributes of Allah, is such a person a Muslim?

3. If someone claims that he worships ONE God as the Creator but the character of his God is different from the Character of Allah, is such person a Muslim?

4. If someone claims that he worships ONE God as the Creator but the Nature of his God is different from the Nature of Allah, is such a person a Muslim

5. If someone claims to worship the same God as the God of Moses but rejects the way that God identified Himself and revealed His nature to Moses, how can we establish that they are referring to the same God?

6. Historical identity: If someone claims to worship the God of Abraham but rejects the historical revelations, covenants and promises through which that God identified Himself to Abraham and his descendants, what establishes that they worship the same God?

7. Consistency of identity: Can two beings with fundamentally contradictory identities, characteristics and relationships with humanity be considered the same God simply because both are described as the Creator?





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The short answer is No! Absolutely not.

In term of reference, that is, referring to the God of all creation, the uncreated, unchanging eternal and immutable, you may be able to claim a match. But then, so would any religion which referred to a Supreme Being, of which there are many.

However, in terms of description, revelation and relation, the God of The Bible and the deity of Islam are mutually exclusive beings. Thematically they could not be more different.

I will touch briefly on elements of the "relationship" aspect here. I may touch on others as the discussion unfolds if warranted.

Starting with the names. The revealed YHWH (The I AM THAT I AM ) of the Bible, engages mankind relationally and shares a personal name. In stark contrast to the generic and recycled (allah) of the koran. Names matter.

All the Prophets had names that testified too, and of YHWH and HIs unfolding plan. In islam, they become meaningless. Devoid of all meaning and descriptive ties. Names matter!

The God of the Bible imprints mankind with "Imago Dei" - The Likeness of God. Given rise to the higher consciousness of human beings. Notions of conscience, our being able to reason, to understand order, structure and pursue rational inquiry. The seedbed of scientific discovery and technological advancement.

We are propelled towards higher pursuits and can begin to grasp if not attain true righteousness and holiness - "Because He is Holy".

Perhaps more socially importantly, it affords the human dignity and the inalienable freedoms & rights given by our creator to all men. No slavery, no customary discrimination, no unwarranted prejudice.

The deity of islam is apparently beyond comprehension, and like nothing in his creation. Humans are just another expression of his creative powers. No more worthy than any other created thing, and nothing more than slaves. Slaves who have to work for an uncertain salvation - The God of The Bible is a sure Gaurantor.

There are no true notions of morality, let alone righteousness or holiness. The conscience is effectively voided. What islam terms "complete" is actually absolutist control - fatwas for garlic, for which foot to lead when going to the loo. Girls burnt to death in a school fire for modesty rulings, men slumping in prayer being ignored.

There are no inventions or advances that are unique to islam. Nor could there be, it can not only not innovate, it is wholly regressive. Your choice? Seventh century Arabia or 21st century Afghanistan - with options for northern Nigeria and Somalia. No scientific discoveries, no technological advancements.

The God of The Bible is love. For God so loved the world. Love in His affection, love in His outreach. Love shed abroad in the hearts of believers. A love which cannot do, and does no harm. A sacrificial love...revealed in His Only Begotten. Grace writ large.

Contrast the hate, violence and bloodshed of allah. Hate for unbelievers, even your family. Hate of Jews Christians, and of course, polytheists. Hate of plurality, difference or dissent. Hate of anything not islamic,

With death as the go-to solution. Death for not joining, death for leaving, death for insulting. The joy of rajm , the love of beheading. The delight in terror - by sword, by bullet, by car, by plane.

No. They are not and can never be the same. How dare anyone make such an absurd statement!


Come to Christ, who loved us and gave Himself for us. Shed yourselves of your weighty burdens and false piety. Unshackle yourselves of fear, violence, bloodshed and uncertainty. He is Light!


TV

TenQ:
Step ONE: Basic Questions



Here are questions to unveils the fundamental beliefs of Muslims with respect to their God Allah. Can you please respond clearly with respect to your Qur'an (knowing that sects like Muʿtazila, Jahmiyya, Karramiyya , Ismaili Shiʿism, Alawites (Nusayris) and Shia Muslims exist).




Can you also kindly respond to these short answer questions for us to be on the same page?
1. If someone claims that he worships ONE God as the Creator but the name of his God is NOT Allah, is such a person a Muslim?

2. If someone claims that he worships ONE God as the Creator but the attributes of his God is different from the Attributes of Allah, is such a person a Muslim?

3. If someone claims that he worships ONE God as the Creator but the character of his God is different from the Character of Allah, is such person a Muslim?

4. If someone claims that he worships ONE God as the Creator but the Nature of his God is different from the Nature of Allah, is such a person a Muslim

5. If someone claims to worship the same God as the God of Moses but rejects the way that God identified Himself and revealed His nature to Moses, how can we establish that they are referring to the same God?

6. Historical identity: If someone claims to worship the God of Abraham but rejects the historical revelations, covenants and promises through which that God identified Himself to Abraham and his descendants, what establishes that they worship the same God?

7. Consistency of identity: Can two beings with fundamentally contradictory identities, characteristics and relationships with humanity be considered the same God simply because both are described as the Creator?





cc:
Antichristian
Gaskiyamagana
CreativeOrbit
drlateef
Lukuluku69
mhmsadyq
Empiree
Rash4ductluv
AbuTwins
motayoayinde

Interesting. I'll get to your seven questions but a few things in your last post don't hold up. You said ahad means "one of several" and Muhammad pbuh lifted the Shema without understanding it. Check the Shema. Deut 6:4 says YHWH echad. Echad and ahad are cousins, same root idea. So if ahad is "one of," then echad is "one of," and your own God in Deuteronomy is one of several. You can't swing that at Allah and expect it to miss YHWH. Pick a lane not a defense of trinity as the Jews don't have it.
Iblis next. Nobody reads Surah 112 as "Allah is one, full stop." It says no equal, no father, no son, everything depends on Him. Iblis is a creature and made nothing. I'm one person too, as you said, so by that logic everybody is Allah? Come on.
Your list at the end (three Persons and so on) just assumes the Christian answer. Moses never taught that. The Jews who read Exodus 3 for centuries never taught it either. If being three Persons is the test for who YHWH is, Jews fail it, and I'm guessing you don't want to say they worship someone else.
Now the questions.
1 to 4: No. If you reject the shahada and what Islam says about God's name, attributes, character and nature, you're not a Muslim in the Islamic sense. I won't dodge that. But "is he a Muslim" and "is he talking about the same God" are two separate questions. Arab Christians say Allah every Sunday and nobody calls them Muslim.
5: Fair point that if you reject how God revealed Himself to Moses, your claim to follow Moses' God gets weaker. We say Allah spoke to Moses (Quran 20:11-14, 4:164) and sent the Torah (5:44). Where our account and yours differ, we're arguing about what was said. We're still talking about the same speaker.
6: Same Quran 3:67 says Abraham submitted to the one God. You say Muslims reject the covenants, we say they were misdescribed. Again the fight is over content.
7: Two descriptions that truly contradict can't both be right, agreed. That still doesn't make two Gods. Jews and Christians contradict each other all day about YHWH and you still say they mean the same One. Paul told the Athenians about the God they already worshipped without knowing Him (Acts 17:23), and in Romans 10:2 he says people can have zeal for God and still lack knowledge. Same target, wrong picture. Paul's own words.
29:46 says "our God and your God is one", and that was said knowing full well the Trinity was in dispute.
So what's your argument that Muslims mean a different Creator, and not the same Creator described differently?

honesttalk21:
Interesting. I'll get to your seven questions but a few things in your last post don't hold up. You said ahad means "one of several" and Muhammad pbuh lifted the Shema without understanding it. Check the Shema. Deut 6:4 says YHWH echad. Echad and ahad are cousins, same root idea. So if ahad is "one of," then echad is "one of," and your own God in Deuteronomy is one of several. You can't swing that at Allah and expect it to miss YHWH. Pick a lane not a defense of trinity as the Jews don't have it.

1. Sorry, Arabic and Hebrew may both be Semitic languages but they still differ from each other

Here is the Shema
Shema Yisrael, Adonai Eloheinu, Adonai Eḥad.

In Hebrew Ehad/Echad mean two primary things
Ehad = Numeral ONE Gen 1:5
Ehad = Compound UNITY Gen 2:24

Now let us look at the Arabic
Waheed (not Ahad)= Numeral ONE
Ahad everywhere in the Qur'an is a flavour of "one of..." or "anyone" or "someone" except for the mischievous muslims translation of Qur’an 112:1 where ahad forcefully translated as one.


Otherwise, I challenge you to find just One place in the Qur'an where AHAD mean ONE other that the falsely translated Qur'an 112:1

If you cannot find just one instance of usage of ahad to mean numeral one, then I stand by my words that Allah is just ONE OF several Deities (most likely the reason he uses Plural Identity for himself WE, OUR, US etc)

2. Is Ahad ANYWHERE in the Qur'an used as Compound Unity?

So, Mohammed copied the Shema without understanding the meaning of Ahad.

3. To convince yourself that Ahad in Arabic is not numeral ONE, You may also try to compose just one everyday Arabic sentence where Ahad is numeral one without the nuances of "one of..." or "anyone" or "someone"

It would have made sense if Mohammed said that Allah is Waheed rather than Ahad. Bad Grammar resulting from copying the Shema.

honesttalk21:
Iblis next. Nobody reads Surah 112 as "Allah is one, full stop." It says no equal, no father, no son, everything depends on Him. Iblis is a creature and made nothing. I'm one person too, as you said, so by that logic everybody is Allah? Come on.
Your list at the end (three Persons and so on) just assumes the Christian answer. Moses never taught that. The Jews who read Exodus 3 for centuries never taught it either. If being three Persons is the test for who YHWH is, Jews fail it, and I'm guessing you don't want to say they worship someone else.

Qur’an 112:1
qul huwa Allāhu aḥad
“Say: He is Allah, One.”

You rightly said that Iblis is one, just as you are one.


Iblis too doesn't have a father
Iblis doesn't have a wife
How can Iblis have children when he has no consort?
Does Iblis have girlfriends?

So, even your distinctions still prove me right that the oneness of Allah and the Oneness of Iblis is similar.

Islam usually doesn't have any arguments other that STRAWMAN type argument.

Every Christian AFFIRM that YHWH is ONE Being!
This is in agreement with the Shema or Deut 6:4 or Mark 12:29


The Question is, what did Moses teach about YHWH: is He uni-personal or multi-personal?

Only from the Bible would we find the answer

honesttalk21:
Now the questions.
1 to 4: No. If you reject the shahada and what Islam says about God's name, attributes, character and nature, you're not a Muslim in the Islamic sense. I won't dodge that. But "is he a Muslim" and "is he talking about the same God" are two separate questions. Arab Christians say Allah every Sunday and nobody calls them Muslim.

I wished you itemised each question with the appropriate response
1. If someone claims that he worships ONE God as the Creator but the name of his God is NOT Allah, is such a person a Muslim?
You said: NO!
If the unique name of a person's God is not Allah, such cannot be a Muslim.

Moses claimed to worship One God whose name is NOT Allah but YHWH: Is Moses a Muslim?

Can you explain how Allah has 99 names and not even one of them is YHWH?

Allah gave a name Yahahya to Zachariah's son
Qur’an 19:7, Allah says that the name Yaḥyā had not been given to anyone before

Unfortunately, it seems that both Mohammed and Allah did not know that Zachariah's sons name is the Hebrew name Yôḥānān (יוֹחָנָן), which mean “YHWH is gracious” or “YHWH has been gracious.”

Note: Yôḥānān is a contraction of Yəhôḥānān



2. If someone claims that he worships ONE God as the Creator but the attributes of his God is different from the Attributes of Allah, is such a person a Muslim?

You said: NO!


YHWH does enter into His creation! Gen 12:7, Genesis 3:8–9
Does Allah enter into his creation?


YHWH adopts some of His Creations as Sons (Children)! Deut 14:1, Exodus 4:22–23
Does Allah adopts anyone as sons other than slaves?

YHWH is Multipersonal Genesis 19:24,
Is Allah multipersonal?



3. If someone claims that he worships ONE God as the Creator but the character of his God is different from the Character of Allah, is such person a Muslim?

YHWH does NOT swear by ANYTHING in Creation other than Himself or His Attributes or His Name! Amos 6:8, Isaiah 45:23, Jeremiah 44:26, Hebrews 6:13
Does Allah swear by created things like figs, stars, sun. moon, Mecca etc



4. If someone claims that he worships ONE God as the Creator but the Nature of his God is different from the Nature of Allah, is such a person a Muslim

YHWH is OMNIPRESENT in both Time and Space! Jeremiah 23:23–24, Psalm 139:7–10
Is Allah Omnipresent: does Allah fill everywhere?

honesttalk21:
5: Fair point that if you reject how God revealed Himself to Moses, your claim to follow Moses' God gets weaker. We say Allah spoke to Moses (Quran 20:11-14, 4:164) and sent the Torah (5:44). Where our account and yours differ, we're arguing about what was said. We're still talking about the same speaker.

The question was:
5. If someone claims to worship the same God as the God of Moses but rejects the way that God identified Himself and revealed His nature to Moses, how can we establish that they are referring to the same God?

Did YHWH make Himself physically visible to Moses here on earth?
Do you reject that Allah could make himself physically visible to Moses here on earth?

Did YHWH make Himself physically visible to Abraham here on earth?
Do you reject that Allah could make himself physically visible to Abraham here on earth?

honesttalk21:
6: Same Quran 3:67 says Abraham submitted to the one God. You say Muslims reject the covenants, we say they were misdescribed. Again the fight is over content.

The question was:
6. Historical identity: If someone claims to worship the God of Abraham but rejects the historical revelations, covenants and promises through which that God identified Himself to Abraham and his descendants, what establishes that they worship the same God?

I guess we should look at some of the revelations, covenants and promises

1. YHWH promised an everlasting covenant to Abraham through Isaac his son Genesis 17:19–21
Do you affirm that Allah's everlasting covenant is with Isaac?

2. YHWH asked Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac to him in the land of Moriah Gen 22:2
Do you affirm that Allah asked Abraham to offer Isaac as a burnt offering to him on a mountain in the land of Moriah?

honesttalk21:
7: Two descriptions that truly contradict can't both be right, agreed. That still doesn't make two Gods. Jews and Christians contradict each other all day about YHWH and you still say they mean the same One. Paul told the Athenians about the God they already worshipped without knowing Him (Acts 17:23), and in Romans 10:2 he says people can have zeal for God and still lack knowledge. Same target, wrong picture. Paul's own words.
29:46 says "our God and your God is one", and that was said knowing full well the Trinity was in dispute.
So what's your argument that Muslims mean a different Creator, and not the same Creator described differently?

The question was:
7. Consistency of identity: Can two beings with fundamentally contradictory identities, characteristics and relationships with humanity be considered the same God simply because both are described as the Creator?
You said: (correctly)
"Two descriptions that truly contradict can't both be right, agreed."
BUT
You immediately contradicted it with your next sentence.
"That still doesn't make two Gods."

The answer is IMPOSSIBLE: if the two IDENTITIES called God have fundamentally contradictory identities, characteristics and relationships with humanity, they cannot be the same God. QED!

The subject is about the IDENTITY of God and not on the Interpretation people have of God.

If a Muslim think that Allah is hard to him and another Muslim think that Allah is gentle with him, it is their opinion based on their experiences. What defines who or what Allah is the statements of Allah in the Qur'an. QED.




Why not read the whole of Acts 17:22-34 for context.

It is so easy to Strawman the scripture to say what you want.
Paul is saying that the Athenians’ altar to an “unknown god” reveals a dim, ignorant awareness of ultimate divinity, and he now identifies and explains that God as the Creator and Lord of heaven and earth. He is not saying they had already knowingly worshipped YHWH, nor that their pagan worship was acceptable worship of YHWH.
This is why Paul now introduces them to the God who does not live in temples built with human hands.
That this God is does not need anything from them as service.
Paul then preached repentance
Then Paul preached the judgement day


Do you deny that a person can sincerely seek and attempt to worship the true God while having mistaken beliefs about Him.
Whether that worship is accepted, however, depends entirely on the true God Himself. John 3:18, John 3:36, John 14:6, Acts 4:12 and Qur’an 3:85 make a distinction between sincerity and following the truth.

TenQ:
Step ONE: Basic Questions



Here are questions to unveils the fundamental beliefs of Muslims with respect to their God Allah. Can you please respond clearly with respect to your Qur'an (knowing that sects like Muʿtazila, Jahmiyya, Karramiyya , Ismaili Shiʿism, Alawites (Nusayris) and Shia Muslims exist).




Can you also kindly respond to these short answer questions for us to be on the same page?
1. If someone claims that he worships ONE God as the Creator but the name of his God is NOT Allah, is such a person a Muslim?

2. If someone claims that he worships ONE God as the Creator but the attributes of his God is different from the Attributes of Allah, is such a person a Muslim?

3. If someone claims that he worships ONE God as the Creator but the character of his God is different from the Character of Allah, is such person a Muslim?

4. If someone claims that he worships ONE God as the Creator but the Nature of his God is different from the Nature of Allah, is such a person a Muslim

5. If someone claims to worship the same God as the God of Moses but rejects the way that God identified Himself and revealed His nature to Moses, how can we establish that they are referring to the same God?

6. Historical identity: If someone claims to worship the God of Abraham but rejects the historical revelations, covenants and promises through which that God identified Himself to Abraham and his descendants, what establishes that they worship the same God?

7. Consistency of identity: Can two beings with fundamentally contradictory identities, characteristics and relationships with humanity be considered the same God simply because both are described as the Creator?





cc:
Antichristian
Gaskiyamagana
CreativeOrbit
drlateef
Lukuluku69
mhmsadyq
Empiree
Rash4ductluv
AbuTwins
motayoayinde

Reminder and as l have always saying from experience with you, any person dragging Islamic issues with you:

1. have time besides knowledge
2. Is new to NL religion section and unaware, unsuspecting and thought that you are:

I robotically wired anti Islam .
Il anti Islamic ORGANIZATION agent with monthly salary or certain financial rewards.
Ill Well familiar with, if not author of CHRISTIANIZED fake, twisted and doctored information about Islam.
IV a type, similar to the past typical arch enemy of Allah during the time of the prophet; clearly aforetime mentioned and warned about in Q3:7---.
V. Impossible to be continue arguing with so far I - lV above were your faith, belief and personality of Islam. Therefore, it's wasting of time, energy, reasoning and data dealing with you unless the operations carried out on you:
a. de-roboticalization.
b. robotical rewiring and reprogramming on anti Islam.
c. spiritual rebirth or separation from inherited prophets of God's enemies blood and mentality.

gaskiyamagana:
Reminder and as l have always saying from experience with you, any person dragging Islamic issues with you:

1. have time besides knowledge
2. Is new to NL religion section and unaware, unsuspecting and thought that you are:

I robotically wired anti Islam .
Il anti Islamic ORGANIZATION agent with monthly salary or certain financial rewards.
Ill Well familiar with, if not author of CHRISTIANIZED fake, twisted and doctored information about Islam.
IV a type, similar to the past typical arch enemy of Allah during the time of the prophet; clearly aforetime mentioned and warned about in Q3:7---.
V. Impossible to be continue arguing with so far I - lV above were your faith, belief and personality of Islam. Therefore, it's wasting of time, energy, reasoning and data dealing with you unless the operations carried out on you:
a. de-roboticalization.
b. robotical rewiring and reprogramming on anti Islam.
c. spiritual rebirth or separation from inherited prophets of God's enemies blood and mentality.

So, you think that the reason I know enough Islam to cause you pain is that I am being employed or paid to discuss the core of Islam with you to your discomfort.

You leave the core to give me labels doesn't bother me. I ONLY feel for you. Must you die and go to hell as Allah guaranteed you Qur'an 19:71-72 before you appreciate the TRUTH?

At least check for the Truth in my thesis: but you wouldn't!


Do you sincerely and honestly believe and think that Allah is the same personality as YHWH?
If Allah is NOT the same personality or identity as YHWH, it simply means that Islam is a FRAUD and you hav been 419'nd by the greatest deciever



You don't have to respond if this bothers or terrifies you but at least read

https://www.nairaland.com/8716774/allah-same-god-yahweh#141132240

TenQ:
So, you think that the reason I know enough Islam to cause you pain is that I am being employed or paid to discuss the core of Islam with you to your discomfort.

You leave the core to give me labels doesn't bother me. I ONLY feel for you. Must you die and go to hell as Allah guaranteed you Qur'an 19:71-72 before you appreciate the TRUTH?

At least check for the Truth in my thesis: but you wouldn't!


Do you sincerely and honestly believe and think that Allah is the same personality as YHWH?
If Allah is NOT the same personality or identity as YHWH, it simply means that Islam is a FRAUD and you hav been 419'nd by the greatest deciever



You don't have to respond if this bothers or terrifies you but at least read

https://www.nairaland.com/8716774/allah-same-god-yahweh#141132240

Once again, l pity those dragging islamical issue with you. No verse in the tQur'an that fits your, your sponsor's goal and strategies MORE THAN QURAN 3 : 7 - 10.

gaskiyamagana:
Once again, l pity those dragging islamical issue with you. No verse in the tQur'an that fits your, your sponsor's goal and strategies MORE THAN QURAN 3 : 7 - 10.

Khai!

So, you've been beaten blue-black in the past that you consider me to be a professional heavyweight titleholder in destroying Islamic affairs and not an amateur level contestant.

What a compliment.

Please look at the verses below and tell me if Quran 3:7 doesn't contradict the verses

Qur’an 3:7
“He is the One who sent down to you the Book; from it are precise/established verses—they are the mother/foundation of the Book and others are resembling/ambiguous. So, as for those in whose hearts is deviation, they follow what is resembling/ambiguous from it, seeking discord and seeking its interpretation. And none knows its interpretation except Allah. And those firmly grounded in knowledge say: ‘We believe in it; all is from our Lord.’ And none takes heed except people of understanding.”



1. Allah wrote a book for humans
2. Half of the book are unclear
3. The best of muslim scholars dont even understand the book YET they write countless Tafsirs explaining what they dont even understand
4. The most knowledgeable Muslim scholars explain it away rather that believe it like Quran 19:71-72


YET, Allah claimed that the Qur'an is very CLEAR and it is a EXPLANATION of All things

Qur’an 16:89
"....... and We have sent down to thee the Book explaining all things, a Guide, a Mercy, and Glad Tidings to Muslims.”


Qur’an 6:114
“Shall I seek other than God for judge, when He it is Who hath sent unto you the Book, explained in detail. They know full well, to whom We have given the Book, that it hath been sent down from thy Lord in truth. Never be then of those who doubt.”


Qur’an 12:111
“There is, in their stories, instruction for men endued with understanding. It is not a tale invented, but a confirmation of what went before it,- a detailed exposition of all things, and a guide and a mercy to any such as believe."


Qur’an 11:1
“A. L. R. (This is) a Book, with verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning), further explained in detail, from One Who is Wise and Well-acquainted (with all things).”













I had only asked you questions sir. I did not explain the Quran nor speak the bible yet.
Step ONE: Basic Questions



Here are questions to unveils the fundamental beliefs of Muslims with respect to their God Allah. Can you please respond clearly with respect to your Qur'an (knowing that sects like Muʿtazila, Jahmiyya, Karramiyya , Ismaili Shiʿism, Alawites (Nusayris) and Shia Muslims exist).




Can you also kindly respond to these short answer questions for us to be on the same page?
1. If someone claims that he worships ONE God as the Creator but the name of his God is NOT Allah, is such a person a Muslim?

2. If someone claims that he worships ONE God as the Creator but the attributes of his God is different from the Attributes of Allah, is such a person a Muslim?

3. If someone claims that he worships ONE God as the Creator but the character of his God is different from the Character of Allah, is such person a Muslim?

4. If someone claims that he worships ONE God as the Creator but the Nature of his God is different from the Nature of Allah, is such a person a Muslim

5. If someone claims to worship the same God as the God of Moses but rejects the way that God identified Himself and revealed His nature to Moses, how can we establish that they are referring to the same God?

6. Historical identity: If someone claims to worship the God of Abraham but rejects the historical revelations, covenants and promises through which that God identified Himself to Abraham and his descendants, what establishes that they worship the same God?

7. Consistency of identity: Can two beings with fundamentally contradictory identities, characteristics and relationships with humanity be considered the same God simply because both are described as the Creator?

TenQ:
1. Sorry, Arabic and Hebrew may both be Semitic languages but they still differ from each other

Here is the Shema
Shema Yisrael, Adonai Eloheinu, Adonai Eḥad.

In Hebrew Ehad/Echad mean two primary things
Ehad = Numeral ONE Gen 1:5
Ehad = Compound UNITY Gen 2:24

Now let us look at the Arabic
Waheed (not Ahad)= Numeral ONE
Ahad everywhere in the Qur'an is a flavour of "one of..." or "anyone" or "someone" except for the mischievous muslims translation of Qur’an 112:1 where ahad forcefully translated as one.


Otherwise, I challenge you to find just One place in the Qur'an where AHAD mean ONE other that the falsely translated Qur'an 112:1

If you cannot find just one instance of usage of ahad to mean numeral one, then I stand by my words that Allah is just ONE OF several Deities (most likely the reason he uses Plural Identity for himself WE, OUR, US etc)

2. Is Ahad ANYWHERE in the Qur'an used as Compound Unity?

So, Mohammed copied the Shema without understanding the meaning of Ahad.

3. To convince yourself that Ahad in Arabic is not numeral ONE, You may also try to compose just one everyday Arabic sentence where Ahad is numeral one without the nuances of "one of..." or "anyone" or "someone"

It would have made sense if Mohammed said that Allah is Waheed rather than Ahad. Bad Grammar resulting from copying the Shema.




Qur’an 112:1
qul huwa Allāhu aḥad
“Say: He is Allah, One.”

You rightly said that Iblis is one, just as you are one.


Iblis too doesn't have a father
Iblis doesn't have a wife
How can Iblis have children when he has no consort?
Does Iblis have girlfriends?

So, even your distinctions still prove me right that the oneness of Allah and the Oneness of Iblis is similar.

Islam usually doesn't have any arguments other that STRAWMAN type argument.

Every Christian AFFIRM that YHWH is ONE Being!
This is in agreement with the Shema or Deut 6:4 or Mark 12:29


The Question is, what did Moses teach about YHWH: is He uni-personal or multi-personal?

Only from the Bible would we find the answer





I wished you itemised each question with the appropriate response
1. If someone claims that he worships ONE God as the Creator but the name of his God is NOT Allah, is such a person a Muslim?
You said: NO!
If the unique name of a person's God is not Allah, such cannot be a Muslim.

Moses claimed to worship One God whose name is NOT Allah but YHWH: Is Moses a Muslim?

Can you explain how Allah has 99 names and not even one of them is YHWH?

Allah gave a name Yahahya to Zachariah's son
Qur’an 19:7, Allah says that the name Yaḥyā had not been given to anyone before

Unfortunately, it seems that both Mohammed and Allah did not know that Zachariah's sons name is the Hebrew name Yôḥānān (יוֹחָנָן), which mean “YHWH is gracious” or “YHWH has been gracious.”

Note: Yôḥānān is a contraction of Yəhôḥānān



2. If someone claims that he worships ONE God as the Creator but the attributes of his God is different from the Attributes of Allah, is such a person a Muslim?

You said: NO!


YHWH does enter into His creation! Gen 12:7, Genesis 3:8–9
Does Allah enter into his creation?


YHWH adopts some of His Creations as Sons (Children)! Deut 14:1, Exodus 4:22–23
Does Allah adopts anyone as sons other than slaves?

YHWH is Multipersonal Genesis 19:24,
Is Allah multipersonal?



3. If someone claims that he worships ONE God as the Creator but the character of his God is different from the Character of Allah, is such person a Muslim?

YHWH does NOT swear by ANYTHING in Creation other than Himself or His Attributes or His Name! Amos 6:8, Isaiah 45:23, Jeremiah 44:26, Hebrews 6:13
Does Allah swear by created things like figs, stars, sun. moon, Mecca etc



4. If someone claims that he worships ONE God as the Creator but the Nature of his God is different from the Nature of Allah, is such a person a Muslim

YHWH is OMNIPRESENT in both Time and Space! Jeremiah 23:23–24, Psalm 139:7–10
Is Allah Omnipresent: does Allah fill everywhere?




The question was:
5. If someone claims to worship the same God as the God of Moses but rejects the way that God identified Himself and revealed His nature to Moses, how can we establish that they are referring to the same God?

Did YHWH make Himself physically visible to Moses here on earth?
Do you reject that Allah could make himself physically visible to Moses here on earth?

Did YHWH make Himself physically visible to Abraham here on earth?
Do you reject that Allah could make himself physically visible to Abraham here on earth?



The question was:
6. Historical identity: If someone claims to worship the God of Abraham but rejects the historical revelations, covenants and promises through which that God identified Himself to Abraham and his descendants, what establishes that they worship the same God?

I guess we should look at some of the revelations, covenants and promises

1. YHWH promised an everlasting covenant to Abraham through Isaac his son Genesis 17:19–21
Do you affirm that Allah's everlasting covenant is with Isaac?

2. YHWH asked Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac to him in the land of Moriah Gen 22:2
Do you affirm that Allah asked Abraham to offer Isaac as a burnt offering to him on a mountain in the land of Moriah?



The question was:
7. Consistency of identity: Can two beings with fundamentally contradictory identities, characteristics and relationships with humanity be considered the same God simply because both are described as the Creator?
You said: (correctly)
"Two descriptions that truly contradict can't both be right, agreed."
BUT
You immediately contradicted it with your next sentence.
"That still doesn't make two Gods."

The answer is IMPOSSIBLE: if the two IDENTITIES called God have fundamentally contradictory identities, characteristics and relationships with humanity, they cannot be the same God. QED!

The subject is about the IDENTITY of God and not on the Interpretation people have of God.

If a Muslim think that Allah is hard to him and another Muslim think that Allah is gentle with him, it is their opinion based on their experiences. What defines who or what Allah is the statements of Allah in the Qur'an. QED.




Why not read the whole of Acts 17:22-34 for context.

It is so easy to Strawman the scripture to say what you want.
Paul is saying that the Athenians’ altar to an “unknown god” reveals a dim, ignorant awareness of ultimate divinity, and he now identifies and explains that God as the Creator and Lord of heaven and earth. He is not saying they had already knowingly worshipped YHWH, nor that their pagan worship was acceptable worship of YHWH.
This is why Paul now introduces them to the God who does not live in temples built with human hands.
That this God is does not need anything from them as service.
Paul then preached repentance
Then Paul preached the judgement day


Do you deny that a person can sincerely seek and attempt to worship the true God while having mistaken beliefs about Him.
Whether that worship is accepted, however, depends entirely on the true God Himself. John 3:18, John 3:36, John 14:6, Acts 4:12 and Qur’an 3:85 make a distinction between sincerity and following the truth.

Why do you keep treating three different questions as one? Who is being worshipped is one. What people believe about Him is another. Whether God accepts their worship is a third. Answer the first without hopping to the other two.
The Islamic claim again is that Allah is the one Creator worshipped by Abraham, Moses, Elijah, Jesus and all the prophets (29:46, "our God and your God is one". We disagree about God's nature, and I won't pretend we don't. But disagreeing about how to describe someone doesn't show you're talking about two someones.
The Qur'an has the voice at the bush say "Indeed, I am Allah" (20:11-14). It also has Ilyas ask his people why they call on Baal and forsake "Allah, your Lord and the Lord of your forefathers" (37:123-126).
Now anout ahad, you asked for a numeral use. Ahada ʿashara is eleven, in Quran 12:4, and Sunday is yawm al-Ahad, the first day of the week. So the word carries numerical meaning in the Qur'an and in everyday Arabic. I'm not saying it means the same thing in every sentence. I'm saying you can't drag a meaning from one sentence construction into Quran 112:1 and call it done. Commentators often separate wahid, one in a series, from ahad, one with no second or equal. And read the whole surah. Nothing begotten, nothing begetting, nothing comparable to Him. "One of several" doesn't fit that. "We" in the Qur'an is a majestic plural, and grammar alone can't tell you how many divine persons there are.
Iblis is simple. He's a creature (Q7:12; 18:50) and he depends on God. Allah is as-Samad, the One everything depends on.
You asked if Moses is a Muslim. The Qur'an uses the word broadly for anyone who submits to God. That's Abraham in 3:67, and Moses telling his people to trust Allah "if you are Muslims" (10:84). In the later communal sense, Moses wasn't part of the community Muhammad pbuh brought. My "No" meant that sense. Force a yes or no on a word with two senses and you haven't proved anything.
On the 99 names, Allah, Hebrew Eloah and Aramaic Alaha are related forms in the wider Semitic vocabulary for God. YHWH is the Hebrew name. The words aren't identical, and Arabic isn't Hebrew.
Yahya in 19:7 is a separate textual question, and a fair one. Commentators read it more than one way, so I'll give it its own post after I've read them. It's about a name, not about who God is.
You lean on Genesis 19:24 and 3:8-9. Those verses have been read in different ways, and neither one states the Trinity. Deut 6:4 says YHWH is one. On omnipresence, the Qur'an says "He is with you wherever you are" (57:4). See also 2:115 and 50:16. I understand this as His knowledge and power, not as Him being part of creation.
Moses asked to see God and was refused (7:143). Exodus 33:20 says no one can see God's face and live. The Qur'an speaks of Allah granting Isaac and Jacob to Abraham and continuing prophethood among his descendants (29:27), and tells the sacrifice story (37:101-113). It doesn't use the Bible's wording "everlasting covenant", and Muslims differ on which son was offered. A dispute over details isn't a different God.
Your question 7 says what defines Allah is what Allah says in the Qur'an. Fine. The Qur'an explicitly identifies the God who spoke to Moses as Allah. If you reject that identification, then the disagreement is really about whether the Qur'an is authoritative, not whether Muslims and Jews are referring to the same Creator.
On Acts 17:23-28, Paul uses the altar to an unknown god as an opening, then proclaims the Creator. I agree he isn't saying the Athenians knowingly worshipped YHWH. He's correcting their ignorance. My point is narrower. Sincerity, mistaken belief and who you intend to worship are separate things. You asked whether someone can sincerely seek the true God while holding wrong beliefs. No, I don't deny it. That's my point. Whether God accepts the worship is a different question, and it doesn't tell you who the worshipper has in mind.
Think about Jews and Christians. They disagree badly over the Trinity, yet Christians say they worship the God of Israel. Jews reject the Christian picture of God, but that doesn't mean Christians have a different being in mind. If you allow that for them, why not for Muslims? If you don't allow it, apply your rule to them as well.
So which description of YHWH is your standard, the Jewish or the Christian?

honesttalk21:
Why do you keep treating three different questions as one?

If there is anyone who lumps answers together it is your sir.
Check how I broke down your arguments even before you attempted answering my questions.
1. You said Ahad and Ehad mean the same thing which I deflated.
2. You said: "Nobody reads Surah 112 as "Allah is one, full stop."
And I showed you that Iblis qualifies to be Allah in the respects you claim as Iblis doesn't have a father, Iblis doesn't have a wife and so how can he have a son when he doesn't have a wife.
3. You said: "I'm one person too, as you said, so by that logic everybody is Allah? " Showing that your ultra-main argument of Muslims about Allah is illogical.
4. You said that Moses did not teach a multipersonal God and that I assumed a Christian answer which is completely untrue as Moses taught a multipersonal God who is ONE Being as Christians believe also believe that God is one BEING!

Sorry, I was detailed enough in responding to your submissions.

honesttalk21:
Who is being worshipped is one. What people believe about Him is another. Whether God accepts their worship is a third. Answer the first without hopping to the other two.

I dont even know the questions you are speaking about that I haven't answered.
Can you see the advantage of breaking up my submissions in quotations just like I do for you.

honesttalk21:
The Islamic claim again is that Allah is the one Creator worshipped by Abraham, Moses, Elijah, Jesus and all the prophets (29:46, "our God and your God is one". We disagree about God's nature, and I won't pretend we don't. But disagreeing about how to describe someone doesn't show you're talking about two someones.

I think that I have shown you that worshipping ONE God is not as important as WHO that God is.

If a Satanist claim that his god is the same God of Abraham, Isaac , Jacob, David, Jesus etc, does this claim imply that Allah is Satan?

Therefore the islamic claim that Allah is the God worshipped by Abraham, Moses, Elijah, Jesus and all the prophets is NOT true except we verify WHO Allah is and crosscheck with WHO YHWH is.

Is the above reasonable to you?

honesttalk21:
The Qur'an has the voice at the bush say "Indeed, I am Allah" (20:11-14). It also has Ilyas ask his people why they call on Baal and forsake "Allah, your Lord and the Lord of your forefathers" (37:123-126).

Is it impossible that Mohammed copied the Torah and applied it to Allah?

If a satanist wrote a book and claimed that satan was the one who visited Mohammed in the cave and said to him “Read in the name of your Lord who created”
Will you assume that satan is Allah?

Wouldn't you want to check if the characteristics and nature of his god matches that of Allah?

Secondly,
Is the VOICE in the Bush Allah?
because the in the Torah, it was YHWH who appeared physically in the bush as "the Angel of YHWH" and not a voice.

Exod 3:2-6
"And the Angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire, out of the midst of a bush; and he looked, and behold, the bush burned with fire! And the bush was not consumed."

In other words impasonating YHWH in any religious book by anyone is FAKE until one can verify the Nature and Character of the one claiming to be Him.

honesttalk21:
Now anout ahad, you asked for a numeral use. Ahada ʿashara is eleven, in Quran 12:4, and Sunday is yawm al-Ahad, the first day of the week. So the word carries numerical meaning in the Qur'an and in everyday Arabic. I'm not saying it means the same thing in every sentence. I'm saying you can't drag a meaning from one sentence construction into Quran 112:1 and call it done. Commentators often separate wahid, one in a series, from ahad, one with no second or equal.

You were the one that compared Ahad with Ehad and assumed that both mean the same thing.

Lets break down your argument about Ahad
Aḥad by itself means “one.”
ʿashara by itself means “ten.”
aḥada ʿashara is the established compound form for ELEVEN:
In other words they Ahad and Ashara are not two stand alone words but a compound word meaning eleven

Yawm al-aḥad functions as one unit (compound word) meaning “Sunday”—but is still written as two words: يوم الأحد.
Arabic grammarians often describe such fixed idafah phrases as the equivalent of compound nouns in other languages. Like "sunflower" is NOT "sun and flower"

The word Ahad exist in the Qur'an almost 90 times AND not one of them mean numeral ONE except the fictitious translation of Quran 112:1

I also asked you the question
1. Is Ahad ANYWHERE in the Qur'an used as Compound Unity?

2. You may also try to compose just one everyday Arabic sentence where Ahad is numeral one without the nuances of "one of..." or "anyone" or "someone"


Every Christian AFFIRM that YHWH is ONE Being!
This is in agreement with the Shema or Deut 6:4 or Mark 12:29

honesttalk21:
And read the whole surah. Nothing begotten, nothing begetting, nothing comparable to Him. "One of several" doesn't fit that. "We" in the Qur'an is a majestic plural, and grammar alone can't tell you how many divine persons there are.
Iblis is simple. He's a creature (Q7:12; 18:50) and he depends on God. Allah is as-Samad, the One everything depends on.

My argument is that ALL these are claims from an imposter.

To confirm, we need to check the Nature and Character of both YHWH and Allah.

If the Nature and Character of both YHWH and Allah are the same, so be it
BUT
if the Nature and Character of both YHWH and Allah are not the same, then one of the two Gods have impasonated the other.

Does this not make sense to you?

honesttalk21:
You asked if Moses is a Muslim. The Qur'an uses the word broadly for anyone who submits to God. That's Abraham in 3:67, and Moses telling his people to trust Allah "if you are Muslims" (10:84). In the later communal sense, Moses wasn't part of the community Muhammad pbuh brought. My "No" meant that sense. Force a yes or no on a word with two senses and you haven't proved anything.

Is it true that Moses submitted to one God whose name is YHWH?
YES!

Is it true that Mohammed submitted to one God whose name is Allah?
YES!

So, the question is:
1. Is the God of Moses the same as the God of Mohammed?
2. Is YHWH the name of the God of Mohammed?
3. Is Allah the name of the God of Moses?

honesttalk21:
On the 99 names, Allah, Hebrew Eloah and Aramaic Alaha are related forms in the wider Semitic vocabulary for God. YHWH is the Hebrew name. The words aren't identical, and Arabic isn't Hebrew.

Allah according to Muslims mean two separate things
1. Allah mean God/DEITY (generic) and even Hindu pagans can use the word Allah to mean DEITY
2. Allah is the proper unique name of the God of Mohammed and the Muslims.

YHWH is the respected unique proper name of the God/Eloha/Elohim of the Jews and Christians.

Is YHWH is the respected unique proper name of the God/Eloha/Elohim of the Muslims?.

honesttalk21:
Yahya in 19:7 is a separate textual question, and a fair one. Commentators read it more than one way, so I'll give it its own post after I've read them. It's about a name, not about who God is.
You lean on Genesis 19:24 and 3:8-9. Those verses have been read in different ways, and neither one states the Trinity.

Of course, neither Mohammed nor Allah understand the meaning of Yahahya a name Allah himself claim to give to the son of Zachariah.


Trinity just as Taoheed is neither in the Bible nor the Quran. They are firm THEOLOGICAL constructs to describe the nature of God.

My argument is both about the proper Name (not titles) of the Creator AND the Nature and Character of this Creator.


You said that I lean on Gen 19:24 and Gen 3:8 when All I did was to shiw you the nature of the God of Moses so that we can compare it to the nature of Allah. Why don't you answer the questions

I said:
1. YHWH does enter into His creation! Gen 12:7, Genesis 3:8–9
Does Allah enter into his creation?


2. YHWH adopts some of His Creations as Sons (Children)! Deut 14:1, Exodus 4:22–23
Does Allah adopts anyone as sons other than slaves?

3. YHWH is Multipersonal Genesis 19:24,
Is Allah multipersonal?

These are from the Torah of Moses and not the New Testament.

honesttalk21:
Deut 6:4 says YHWH is one. On omnipresence, the Qur'an says "He is with you wherever you are" (57:4). See also 2:115 and 50:16. I understand this as His knowledge and power, not as Him being part of creation.

Anyone can make a claim but such claims should be verified.

If Allah is Omnipresent it shouldn't be difficult answering these questions
1. Is Allah with you in your toilet?
2. Does Allah come down from his throne to our lowest heaven every third part of the night?
3. Can Allah enter his creation without ceasing to be almighty?

If Allah is Omniscient it shouldn't be difficult answering these questions
1. What was the destiny of the boy killed by Al-Khidr
2. Where is the location of the pool where the sun sets or the wall of iron/copper built by Dhū-Qarnayn
3. How many plagues did Allah send to pharaoh?
4. How many sleepers were in the cave?

If Allah is Omnipotent it shouldn't be difficult answering these questions
1. The God of Mary didn't need a spouse to get Mary pregnant, why does Allah question his ability of having an offspring without a consort.
2. Can you from the Quran give one instance of the demonstration of the Power of Allah to Mohammed ?
3. If Allah is Omnipotent, explain why he uses the speech of of feeble doubting humans like "Maybe" or "Perhaps" or "it may be"

honesttalk21:
Moses asked to see God and was refused (7:143). Exodus 33:20 says no one can see God's face and live. The Qur'an speaks of Allah granting Isaac and Jacob to Abraham and continuing prophethood among his descendants (29:27), and tells the sacrifice story (37:101-113). It doesn't use the Bible's wording "everlasting covenant", and Muslims differ on which son was offered.

Notice how you avoided answering specific questions so as to repeat back to me the same claims I am debunking.

No one can see the face of God in His full essence: as God has made Himself visible to several people in both the OT and the NT.

I wish you just answer my direct questions rather than simply relating something about it an moving on as if you have answered the questions.


The problem of Islam is NOT a case of difference in INTERPRETATION of Scriptures. It is a problem of CONTRADICTIONS and DIFFERENCES in scriptures.


Even you know that it is IMPOSSIBLE by any OBJECTIVE standard comparing the Bible and the Qur'an (not doctrinal interpretations) and arrive at the same God.

honesttalk21:
A dispute over details isn't a different God.
Your question 7 says what defines Allah is what Allah says in the Qur'an. Fine. The Qur'an explicitly identifies the God who spoke to Moses as Allah. If you reject that identification, then the disagreement is really about whether the Qur'an is authoritative, not whether Muslims and Jews are referring to the same Creator.

Allah in the Quran makes a CLAIM!
Is this claim FACTUAL?
Is this claim TRUE?

That is the question and not differences or disputes about details.

honesttalk21:
On Acts 17:23-28, Paul uses the altar to an unknown god as an opening, then proclaims the Creator. I agree he isn't saying the Athenians knowingly worshipped YHWH. He's correcting their ignorance. My point is narrower. Sincerity, mistaken belief and who you intend to worship are separate things. You asked whether someone can sincerely seek the true God while holding wrong beliefs. No, I don't deny it. That's my point. Whether God accepts the worship is a different question, and it doesn't tell you who the worshipper has in mind.
Think about Jews and Christians. They disagree badly over the Trinity, yet Christians say they worship the God of Israel. Jews reject the Christian picture of God, but that doesn't mean Christians have a different being in mind. If you allow that for them, why not for Muslims? If you don't allow it, apply your rule to them as well.
So which description of YHWH is your standard, the Jewish or the Christian?

All you need to do when Christians and Jews dispute with each other is to Open the Tanakh (Old Testament) as the ARBITRATOR whatever it says and not individual interpretation is what matters where they disagree.

In other words, what Muslims, Jews or Christians say is NOT as important as what the Book they respect say.

For the Jews: the Tanakh
For the Christians: the Tanakh
For the Muslims: the Tanakh and the NT


Now back to the simple Questions you Dodged answering.
1 a. Moses claimed to worship One God whose name is NOT Allah but YHWH: Is Moses a Muslim?

b. Can you explain how Allah has 99 names and not even one of them is YHWH?

2a. YHWH does enter into His creation! Gen 12:7, Genesis 3:8–9
Does Allah enter into his creation?


b. YHWH adopts some of His Creations as Sons (Children)! Deut 14:1, Exodus 4:22–23
Does Allah adopts anyone as sons other than slaves?

c. YHWH is Multipersonal Genesis 19:24,
Is Allah multipersonal?

3. YHWH does NOT swear by ANYTHING in Creation other than Himself or His Attributes or His Name! Amos 6:8, Isaiah 45:23, Jeremiah 44:26, Hebrews 6:13
Does Allah swear by created things like figs, stars, sun. moon, Mecca etc


4. YHWH is OMNIPRESENT in both Time and Space! Jeremiah 23:23–24, Psalm 139:7–10
Is Allah Omnipresent: does Allah fill everywhere?


5. Did YHWH make Himself physically visible to Moses here on earth?
Do you reject that Allah could make himself physically visible to Moses here on earth?

Did YHWH make Himself physically visible to Abraham here on earth?
Do you reject that Allah could make himself physically visible to Abraham here on earth?

6a. YHWH promised an everlasting covenant to Abraham through Isaac his son Genesis 17:19–21
Do you affirm that Allah's everlasting covenant is with Isaac?

b. YHWH asked Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac to him in the land of Moriah Gen 22:2
Do you affirm that Allah asked Abraham to offer Isaac as a burnt offering to him on a mountain in the land of Moriah?

TenQ:
If there is anyone who lumps answers together it is your sir.
Check how I broke down your arguments even before you attempted answering my questions.
1. You said Ahad and Ehad mean the same thing which I deflated.
2. You said: "Nobody reads Surah 112 as "Allah is one, full stop."
And I showed you that Iblis qualifies to be Allah in the respects you claim as Iblis doesn't have a father, Iblis doesn't have a wife and so how can he have a son when he doesn't have a wife.
3. You said: "I'm one person too, as you said, so by that logic everybody is Allah? " Showing that your ultra-main argument of Muslims about Allah is illogical.
4. You said that Moses did not teach a multipersonal God and that I assumed a Christian answer which is completely untrue as Moses taught a multipersonal God who is ONE Being as Christians believe also believe that God is one BEING!

Sorry, I was detailed enough in responding to your submissions.





I dont even know the questions you are speaking about that I haven't answered.
Can you see the advantage of breaking up my submissions in quotations just like I do for you.



I think that I have shown you that worshipping ONE God is not as important as WHO that God is.

If a Satanist claim that his god is the same God of Abraham, Isaac , Jacob, David, Jesus etc, does this claim imply that Allah is Satan?

Therefore the islamic claim that Allah is the God worshipped by Abraham, Moses, Elijah, Jesus and all the prophets is NOT true except we verify WHO Allah is and crosscheck with WHO YHWH is.

Is the above reasonable to you?


Is it impossible that Mohammed copied the Torah and applied it to Allah?

If a satanist wrote a book and claimed that satan was the one who visited Mohammed in the cave and said to him “Read in the name of your Lord who created”
Will you assume that satan is Allah?

Wouldn't you want to check if the characteristics and nature of his god matches that of Allah?

Secondly,
Is the VOICE in the Bush Allah?
because the in the Torah, it was YHWH who appeared physically in the bush as "the Angel of YHWH" and not a voice.

Exod 3:2-6
"And the Angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire, out of the midst of a bush; and he looked, and behold, the bush burned with fire! And the bush was not consumed."

In other words impasonating YHWH in any religious book by anyone is FAKE until one can verify the Nature and Character of the one claiming to be Him.


You were the one that compared Ahad with Ehad and assumed that both mean the same thing.

Lets break down your argument about Ahad
Aḥad by itself means “one.”
ʿashara by itself means “ten.”
aḥada ʿashara is the established compound form for ELEVEN:
In other words they Ahad and Ashara are not two stand alone words but a compound word meaning eleven

Yawm al-aḥad functions as one unit (compound word) meaning “Sunday”—but is still written as two words: يوم الأحد.
Arabic grammarians often describe such fixed idafah phrases as the equivalent of compound nouns in other languages. Like "sunflower" is NOT "sun and flower"

The word Ahad exist in the Qur'an almost 90 times AND not one of them mean numeral ONE except the fictitious translation of Quran 112:1

I also asked you the question
1. Is Ahad ANYWHERE in the Qur'an used as Compound Unity?

2. You may also try to compose just one everyday Arabic sentence where Ahad is numeral one without the nuances of "one of..." or "anyone" or "someone"


Every Christian AFFIRM that YHWH is ONE Being!
This is in agreement with the Shema or Deut 6:4 or Mark 12:29




My argument is that ALL these are claims from an imposter.

To confirm, we need to check the Nature and Character of both YHWH and Allah.

If the Nature and Character of both YHWH and Allah are the same, so be it
BUT
if the Nature and Character of both YHWH and Allah are not the same, then one of the two Gods have impasonated the other.

Does this not make sense to you?



Is it true that Moses submitted to one God whose name is YHWH?
YES!

Is it true that Mohammed submitted to one God whose name is Allah?
YES!

So, the question is:
1. Is the God of Moses the same as the God of Mohammed?
2. Is YHWH the name of the God of Mohammed?
3. Is Allah the name of the God of Moses?


Allah according to Muslims mean two separate things
1. Allah mean God/DEITY (generic) and even Hindu pagans can use the word Allah to mean DEITY
2. Allah is the proper unique name of the God of Mohammed and the Muslims.

YHWH is the respected unique proper name of the God/Eloha/Elohim of the Jews and Christians.

Is YHWH is the respected unique proper name of the God/Eloha/Elohim of the Muslims?.



Of course, neither Mohammed nor Allah understand the meaning of Yahahya a name Allah himself claim to give to the son of Zachariah.


Trinity just as Taoheed is neither in the Bible nor the Quran. They are firm THEOLOGICAL constructs to describe the nature of God.

My argument is both about the proper Name (not titles) of the Creator AND the Nature and Character of this Creator.


You said that I lean on Gen 19:24 and Gen 3:8 when All I did was to shiw you the nature of the God of Moses so that we can compare it to the nature of Allah. Why don't you answer the questions

I said:
1. YHWH does enter into His creation! Gen 12:7, Genesis 3:8–9
Does Allah enter into his creation?


2. YHWH adopts some of His Creations as Sons (Children)! Deut 14:1, Exodus 4:22–23
Does Allah adopts anyone as sons other than slaves?

3. YHWH is Multipersonal Genesis 19:24,
Is Allah multipersonal?

These are from the Torah of Moses and not the New Testament.







Anyone can make a claim but such claims should be verified.

If Allah is Omnipresent it shouldn't be difficult answering these questions
1. Is Allah with you in your toilet?
2. Does Allah come down from his throne to our lowest heaven every third part of the night?
3. Can Allah enter his creation without ceasing to be almighty?

If Allah is Omniscient it shouldn't be difficult answering these questions
1. What was the destiny of the boy killed by Al-Khidr
2. Where is the location of the pool where the sun sets or the wall of iron/copper built by Dhū-Qarnayn
3. How many plagues did Allah send to pharaoh?
4. How many sleepers were in the cave?

If Allah is Omnipotent it shouldn't be difficult answering these questions
1. The God of Mary didn't need a spouse to get Mary pregnant, why does Allah question his ability of having an offspring without a consort.
2. Can you from the Quran give one instance of the demonstration of the Power of Allah to Mohammed ?
3. If Allah is Omnipotent, explain why he uses the speech of of feeble doubting humans like "Maybe" or "Perhaps" or "it may be"




Notice how you avoided answering specific questions so as to repeat back to me the same claims I am debunking.

No one can see the face of God in His full essence: as God has made Himself visible to several people in both the OT and the NT.

I wish you just answer my direct questions rather than simply relating something about it an moving on as if you have answered the questions.


The problem of Islam is NOT a case of difference in INTERPRETATION of Scriptures. It is a problem of CONTRADICTIONS and DIFFERENCES in scriptures.


Even you know that it is IMPOSSIBLE by any OBJECTIVE standard comparing the Bible and the Qur'an (not doctrinal interpretations) and arrive at the same God.


Allah in the Quran makes a CLAIM!
Is this claim FACTUAL?
Is this claim TRUE?

That is the question and not differences or disputes about details.




All you need to do when Christians and Jews dispute with each other is to Open the Tanakh (Old Testament) as the ARBITRATOR whatever it says and not individual interpretation is what matters where they disagree.

In other words, what Muslims, Jews or Christians say is NOT as important as what the Book they respect say.

For the Jews: the Tanakh
For the Christians: the Tanakh
For the Muslims: the Tanakh and the NT


Now back to the simple Questions you Dodged answering.
1 a. Moses claimed to worship One God whose name is NOT Allah but YHWH: Is Moses a Muslim?

b. Can you explain how Allah has 99 names and not even one of them is YHWH?

2a. YHWH does enter into His creation! Gen 12:7, Genesis 3:8–9
Does Allah enter into his creation?


b. YHWH adopts some of His Creations as Sons (Children)! Deut 14:1, Exodus 4:22–23
Does Allah adopts anyone as sons other than slaves?

c. YHWH is Multipersonal Genesis 19:24,
Is Allah multipersonal?

3. YHWH does NOT swear by ANYTHING in Creation other than Himself or His Attributes or His Name! Amos 6:8, Isaiah 45:23, Jeremiah 44:26, Hebrews 6:13
Does Allah swear by created things like figs, stars, sun. moon, Mecca etc


4. YHWH is OMNIPRESENT in both Time and Space! Jeremiah 23:23–24, Psalm 139:7–10
Is Allah Omnipresent: does Allah fill everywhere?


5. Did YHWH make Himself physically visible to Moses here on earth?
Do you reject that Allah could make himself physically visible to Moses here on earth?

Did YHWH make Himself physically visible to Abraham here on earth?
Do you reject that Allah could make himself physically visible to Abraham here on earth?

6a. YHWH promised an everlasting covenant to Abraham through Isaac his son Genesis 17:19–21
Do you affirm that Allah's everlasting covenant is with Isaac?

b. YHWH asked Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac to him in the land of Moriah Gen 22:2
Do you affirm that Allah asked Abraham to offer Isaac as a burnt offering to him on a mountain in the land of Moriah?

You're persist at making a big assumption that if Muslims don't describe God exactly as the Bible does, they must be worshipping someone else. How does that prove it?

Allah is the Arabic word for God. Arabic-speaking Christians use it too. More importantly, the Qur'an identifies the One who spoke to Moses as Allah (20:11–14). So the difference between the Hebrew name YHWH and the Arabic name Allah doesn't establish two different gods.

And your point about Ahad? Read the whole of Surah 112. It clearly describes Allah as unique, self-sufficient, neither begetting nor begotten. The argument that this means "one among many" simply doesn't fit the passage.

You also keep asking whether Allah has a son or physically enters creation. Muslims believe He does neither. That's a difference in theology, not proof of a different Creator. The Qur'an says Allah spoke to Moses (4:164) and revealed the Torah (5:44). It also recognises Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (29:27). Do Jews share your Christian belief?

On the sacrifice, the Qur'an recounts the event in 37:101–113 but doesn't name the son. We shouldn't pretend it says something it doesn't.

Ultimately, you're treating your interpretation of the Bible as the standard and expecting Muslims to accept it before you will consider their position. That's not proof. If you want to show Muslims worship a different God, you need an argument that establishes that, not simply a list of differences between the Bible and Qur'an. Get that or jog on.

honesttalk21:
You're persist at making a big assumption that if Muslims don't describe God exactly as the Bible does, they must be worshipping someone else. How does that prove it?

You would have had a point IFF
1. Islam did NOT claim the YHWH, the God of the Jews and Christians as their own God
2. If Allah had not said that he gave the Torah, Injeel and Zabur to prophets of the Jews and Christians.
3. If Allah has not implored the Jews and Christians to follow their Scriptures
4.If Allah has not claimed to send the prophets of the Jews and Christians.


You cannot eat your cake and still have it. You are bound to our Scriptures just as Christians are bound to the Tanakh!

honesttalk21:
Allah is the Arabic word for God.

Eloah/Elohim is the Hebrew word for God

BUT
YHWH is the actual personal name for the God/Eloah/Elohim of the Jews and Christians

AND
Allah is the actual personal name for the God/Eloah/Elohim of the Muslims.

honesttalk21:
Arabic-speaking Christians use it too.

Are you implying that Arab Christians think that Allah is YHWH?
Are you implying that Muslims think that Allah is Multipersonal because of the Christians use of Allah?

The name of the Allah/God of the Christians is YHWH
The name of the Allah/God of the Jews is YHWH

Is the name of the Allah/God of the Muslims also YHWH?

honesttalk21:
More importantly, the Qur'an identifies the One who spoke to Moses as Allah (20:11–14).

This is a mere claim until proven otherwise!
Did Allah enter into the Fire?
Can Allah enter his creation?

honesttalk21:
So the difference between the Hebrew name YHWH and the Arabic name Allah doesn't establish two different gods.

In as much as you desperately need to derive legitimacy from YHWH to prop up Islam , it is NOT possible except if you want to lie to yourself.

The Proper and Unique Name of the God of the Jews is YHWH

The Proper and Unique Name of the God of the Christians is YHWH

The Proper and Unique Name of the God of the Muslims is Allah

Since when is Donald Trump the same as Bola Ahmed Tinubu
even though both are Presidents of their respective Nations?

honesttalk21:
And your point about Ahad? Read the whole of Surah 112. It clearly describes Allah as unique, self-sufficient, neither begetting nor begotten. The argument that this means "one among many" simply doesn't fit the passage.

All you need to do is to check the almost 90 times of usage of Ahad in the Qur'an and the TRUE meaning of Ahad is found.

I am sure you were shocked to discover this mistranslation of Ahad in the Qur'an : your scholars always translated it as ONE and you took pride in it.

Sorry!

honesttalk21:
You also keep asking whether Allah has a son or physically enters creation. Muslims believe He does neither.

YHWH has sons
Does Allah have ANY son?

honesttalk21:
That's a difference in theology, not proof of a different Creator. The Qur'an says Allah spoke to Moses (4:164) and revealed the Torah (5:44). It also recognises Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (29:27). Do Jews share your Christian belief?

The same lame excuse.
Forget Theology which could be subject to frivolous interpretation and read the SCRIPTURES as the scripture and not the scholars serve as the truthful ARBITRATOR.

So, it is NOT just a difference in Theology, it is far much more DEEPER : It is a DIFFERENCE in SCRIPTURE.


Unfortunately, ALL these scriptures were claimed as Given by the same Allah of the Muslims.

The Jews may not share in the Belief of Christians so, we as Christians wol have to use the Tanakh as the ARBITRATOR between us.

Can you as Muslims use the Tanakh as the ARBITRATOR with the Jews and use the Bible (Old and New Testament) as ARBITRATOR with the Christians? The answer is NO!

Islam has no BASIS to stand as the discrepancies are just too deep and too much.
How is it the Qur'an simultaneously contradicts both the scripture of the Jews akd the Scripture of Christians?

honesttalk21:
On the sacrifice, the Qur'an recounts the event in 37:101–113 but doesn't name the son. We shouldn't pretend it says something it doesn't.

But the question is WHO do your scholars say is the son?
Shouldn't you have just followed the Tanakh as Allah expects that you should have asked the people of the book for the name?

honesttalk21:
Ultimately, you're treating your interpretation of the Bible as the standard and expecting Muslims to accept it before you will consider their position. That's not proof.

I am NOT using the interpretation of the bible by the Christians to debate you sir.

I am using the statements and quotations of the Tanakh against you. I expect you to read what the Tanakh says and see that my position is consistent.

honesttalk21:
If you want to show Muslims worship a different God, you need an argument that establishes that, not simply a list of differences between the Bible and Qur'an. Get that or jog on.

Is it UNTRUE that the differences between Donald Trump and Bola Ahmed Tinubu establishes beyond any iota of doubt their not being the same person or personality?

How would you distinguish between Allah and Jibril? Is it not by their differences?

How would you distinguish between Allah and Iblis? Is it not by their differences?


Your case is compounded because Allah claims he gave the Torah, Injeel and Zabur to his prophets who are claimed to be islamic prophets. Allah even entrusted the Rabbi to protect and keep the torah. Have you forgotten that Allah in Qur’an 5:44, Allah says that the rabbis and scholars were entrusted with protecting and witnessing the Torah?

This is the Islamic Dilemma you just found yourself in with no way out.

In the court of Law, documents become exhibits for distinguishing between Statements of Truth and Statements of Falsehood

The LIARS would want a situation where ZERO WITNESS or EVIDENCE is provided so that ONLY their words would be heard!



I am sure that you never imagined how deep this would go. Interestingly, this was supposed to be the first part to ascertain the standard used to by Muslims to determine who is qualified to be God wrt the God described by Moses in the Tanakh.

TenQ:
You would have had a point IFF
1. Islam did NOT claim the YHWH, the God of the Jews and Christians as their own God
2. If Allah had not said that he gave the Torah, Injeel and Zabur to prophets of the Jews and Christians.
3. If Allah has not implored the Jews and Christians to follow their Scriptures
4.If Allah has not claimed to send the prophets of the Jews and Christians.


You cannot eat your cake and still have it. You are bound to our Scriptures just as Christians are bound to the Tanakh!


Eloah/Elohim is the Hebrew word for God

BUT
YHWH is the actual personal name for the God/Eloah/Elohim of the Jews and Christians

AND
Allah is the actual personal name for the God/Eloah/Elohim of the Muslims.



Are you implying that Arab Christians think that Allah is YHWH?
Are you implying that Muslims think that Allah is Multipersonal because of the Christians use of Allah?

The name of the Allah/God of the Christians is YHWH
The name of the Allah/God of the Jews is YHWH

Is the name of the Allah/God of the Muslims also YHWH?



This is a mere claim until proven otherwise!
Did Allah enter into the Fire?
Can Allah enter his creation?



In as much as you desperately need to derive legitimacy from YHWH to prop up Islam , it is NOT possible except if you want to lie to yourself.

The Proper and Unique Name of the God of the Jews is YHWH

The Proper and Unique Name of the God of the Christians is YHWH

The Proper and Unique Name of the God of the Muslims is Allah

Since when is Donald Trump the same as Bola Ahmed Tinubu
even though both are Presidents of their respective Nations?



All you need to do is to check the almost 90 times of usage of Ahad in the Qur'an and the TRUE meaning of Ahad is found.

I am sure you were shocked to discover this mistranslation of Ahad in the Qur'an : your scholars always translated it as ONE and you took pride in it.

Sorry!




YHWH has sons
Does Allah have ANY son?


The same lame excuse.
Forget Theology which could be subject to frivolous interpretation and read the SCRIPTURES as the scripture and not the scholars serve as the truthful ARBITRATOR.

So, it is NOT just a difference in Theology, it is far much more DEEPER : It is a DIFFERENCE in SCRIPTURE.


Unfortunately, ALL these scriptures were claimed as Given by the same Allah of the Muslims.

The Jews may not share in the Belief of Christians so, we as Christians wol have to use the Tanakh as the ARBITRATOR between us.

Can you as Muslims use the Tanakh as the ARBITRATOR with the Jews and use the Bible (Old and New Testament) as ARBITRATOR with the Christians? The answer is NO!

Islam has no BASIS to stand as the discrepancies are just too deep and too much.
How is it the Qur'an simultaneously contradicts both the scripture of the Jews akd the Scripture of Christians?




But the question is WHO do your scholars say is the son?
Shouldn't you have just followed the Tanakh as Allah expects that you should have asked the people of the book for the name?



I am NOT using the interpretation of the bible by the Christians to debate you sir.

I am using the statements and quotations of the Tanakh against you. I expect you to read what the Tanakh says and see that my position is consistent.



Is it UNTRUE that the differences between Donald Trump and Bola Ahmed Tinubu establishes beyond any iota of doubt their not being the same person or personality?

How would you distinguish between Allah and Jibril? Is it not by their differences?

How would you distinguish between Allah and Iblis? Is it not by their differences?


Your case is compounded because Allah claims he gave the Torah, Injeel and Zabur to his prophets who are claimed to be islamic prophets. Allah even entrusted the Rabbi to protect and keep the torah. Have you forgotten that Allah in Qur’an 5:44, Allah says that the rabbis and scholars were entrusted with protecting and witnessing the Torah?

This is the Islamic Dilemma you just found yourself in with no way out.

In the court of Law, documents become exhibits for distinguishing between Statements of Truth and Statements of Falsehood

The LIARS would want a situation where ZERO WITNESS or EVIDENCE is provided so that ONLY their words would be heard!



I am sure that you never imagined how deep this would go. Interestingly, this was supposed to be the first part to ascertain the standard used to by Muslims to determine who is qualified to be God wrt the God described by Moses in the Tanakh.

A mistaken case of belief and identities.

The name Allah just means God in Arabic. Even Arabic-speaking Christians call God Allah. Different names don’t mean different beings. The key question is who they're actually talking about.

Ahad in Qur’an 112:1 needs to be taken in the full context of the chapter. It paints Allah as One, self-sufficient, with no offspring and no equal. Saying Ahad means “one among several” just doesn't fit that.

Your Iblis analogy doesn’t hold up. Iblis is created and depends on Allah. Allah is the Creator, and As-Samad (112:2).

On Sonship, the Bible calls Israel God's son (Exodus 4:22), but that's more about the covenant than saying God has a literal child.

On earlier scriptures, I slam recognizes the original revelations to past prophets. But that doesn’t mean Muslims have to see every current text or interpretation as unchanged and authoritative. Check out Qur’an 5:44–48 for that.

Regarding Abraham’s sacrifice, Genesis mentions Isaac, while Qur’an 37 leaves the son unnamed. Sure, that’s worth discussing, but it doesn’t show that Muslims worship a different Creator.

Think about that Jews don’t believe in the Trinity, but Christians do. So, are you saying they worship completely different Gods?

You’ve pointed out some theological disagreements, but you haven’t shown that Muslims are trying to worship a different Creator. What’s your standard for making that distinction?

honesttalk21:
A mistaken case of belief and identities.

The name Allah just means God in Arabic. Even Arabic-speaking Christians call God Allah. Different names don’t mean different beings. The key question is who they're actually talking about.

Allah is either a TITLE meaning God, Deity, Eloha or A proper unique name of a particular Deity.

So, the context matters.
Is the name of the Allah of the Arab Christians YHWH?

Is the name of the Allah/God/Eloah of Muslims Allah?

This is distinction.

honesttalk21:
Ahad in Qur’an 112:1 needs to be taken in the full context of the chapter. It paints Allah as One, self-sufficient, with no offspring and no equal. Saying Ahad means “one among several” just doesn't fit that.

Allah should have explained it better by using Waheed rather that Ahad for himself.

The problem is complicated when you look in the classical Islamic history of Islam where a sacrifice to Hubal is a sacrifice to Allah.

Isn't Allah the BEST of the Creators? We are not sure if Iblis is one of the creators because I heard that Iblis seem to create offsprings of jinn by copulating with himself. You can confirm for this

honesttalk21:
Your Iblis analogy doesn’t hold up. Iblis is created and depends on Allah. Allah is the Creator, and As-Samad (112:2).

Circular reasoning!
I only just used your description of the Oneness of Allah on the Oneness of Iblis and it proves that your key distinction of Allah is weak as
i. Iblis wasn't born
ii. Iblis doesn't have a son
iii. Iblis doesn't have a son because he doesn't have a wife.
iv. Iblis is one
v. Iblis is not Omnipresent (he can only be in one place at a time)

The only difference is that Muslims claim that Allah is the best of the creators.

Do you agree that:
If I am the ONLY student in a Class, I cannot call myself the best of the students student.

honesttalk21:
On Sonship, the Bible calls Israel God's son (Exodus 4:22), but that's more about the covenant than saying God has a literal child.

YHWH have sons by Adoption BUT Allah rejects all forms of Sonship including by adoption.

Can ANYONE come to Allah other than as a Slave?

honesttalk21:
On earlier scriptures, I slam recognizes the original revelations to past prophets. But that doesn’t mean Muslims have to see every current text or interpretation as unchanged and authoritative. Check out Qur’an 5:44–48 for that.

Your claims
1. Allah couldn't protect his words
2. Allah asked Jews and Christians to judge from their textually corrupt scriptures
3. The Quran confirms corrupted scriptures.

If the earlier scriptures are claimed by Islam to be corrupted, then
1. Muslims should show us the verses that were corrupted from the original uncorrupted verses.
2. Muslims should show us when the scriptures were corrupted
3. Muslims should show us who corrupted the scriptures
4. Muslims should show us the aim or reasons for the corruption
5. Why the Jews and Christians conspired to corrupt the Tanakh (as Jews are known to hate Christians)
6. Where the scriptures were corrupted.

Is the Quran also corrupted?

honesttalk21:
Regarding Abraham’s sacrifice, Genesis mentions Isaac, while Qur’an 37 leaves the son unnamed. Sure, that’s worth discussing, but it doesn’t show that Muslims worship a different Creator.

Christians and Jews do not have any problems with who the Sacrificial son was: He was Isaac
So, the question is:
According to you MUSLIMS, who do you say is the Sacrificial son?

honesttalk21:
Think about that Jews don’t believe in the Trinity, but Christians do. So, are you saying they worship completely different Gods?

The Jews were not a unified body of Believers as they have several sects like the Pharisees, Sadducees , Rabbinical Jews etc The Rabbinical Jews are the modern Jews who vehemently reject the Multipersonal nature of YHWH.

Some earlier Jewish scholars believed from reading and interpreting the Tanakh in the "Two Powers of Heaven" referring to God "the Father" and God "the Word/Messenger of His presence".


The phrase—Hebrew shetei rashuyyot (“two authorities/powers”) was used by later rabbis as a broad label for people they regarded as heretical because they appeared to posit a second divine or quasi-divine figure alongside the one God. Here are some of these Jews Groups
a. Jewish Christians (including the Apostles of Jesus)
b. Jewish Gnostics / dualists
c. Merkabah mystics
d. minim
The Multipersonal nature of God is not a recent Christian idea. I am not arguing the correctness of their messages, I am just stating that it isnt a new or recent idea.

So , you made an over generalized blanket claim of the Jewish beliefs.


Back to your claim: where you said:
"Jews don’t believe in the Trinity, but Christians do. So, are you saying they worship completely different Gods?"

The problem is different INTERPRETATION of the same Tanakh and NOT Different STATEMENT of the Scripture. So, a Christian doesn't need to use ONLY tye New Testament to prove to the Jew TRINITY (which would be circular reasoning) we can use only the Tanakh to Prove the Trinity.

honesttalk21:
You’ve pointed out some theological disagreements, but you haven’t shown that Muslims are trying to worship a different Creator. What’s your standard for making that distinction?

Muslims are not trying to worship a different creator BUT unfortunately they are worshipping the God of Mohammed rather than the God of Moses.

How can we prove this?
By looking at the Character and Nature of YHWH the God of Moses written by him in the Torah/Tanakh and comparing it with the Character and Nature of Allah the God of Mohammed as written by him in the Qur'an

Mohammed attributed many of the the qualities of the God of Moses to his Allah: this is the problem.

How would you distinguish between Allah and Jibril? Is it not by their differences?

How would you distinguish between Allah and Iblis? Is it not by their differences?


Then difference in SCRIPTURAL description of the God of Moses and the God of Mohammed and not Theological Interpretations is the Proof coupled with the fact that Allah claims to be the source of BOTH the Torah and the Quran.

Tell me: How can the same AUTHOR namely Allah produce TWO sets of contradicting descriptions of himself

This is the Islamic Dilemma that proves that Allah and YHWH are DIFFERENT Deities with Allah impasonating YHWH

honesttalk21:
Yes. Islam teaches they refer to the same Creator, though Muslims differ from Jews and Christians on His nature and attributes.

Does the Bible use other names or titles for God besides YHWH?

Let's focus on YHWH

Now my next question is can I call God YHWH?

SIRTee15:
Let's focus on YHWH

Now my next question is can I call God YHWH?

Isn't YHWH the focus here? You can call him YHWH like the Jews or Israelites, Ubangidi, Oluwa or Olorun but not to the extent of mixing dialects.

honesttalk21:
Isn't YHWH the focus here? You can call him YHWH like the Jews or Israelites, Ubangidi, Oluwa or Olorun but not to the extent of mixing dialects.

so can Muslims call Allah YHWH?