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In traditional Jewish expectation, there is no concept of a Messiah who comes and is nailed to the cross, leaves and returns later to complete the mission.

A worldwide era of peace and recognition of God
Prophecies such as Isaiah 2:2–4 and Micah 4:1–4 are often understood as describing a time when wars cease and humanity turns toward the knowledge of God.

Davidic lineage
The Messiah must be descended from King David through his son Solomon (based on passages such as 2 Samuel 7 and later rabbinic interpretation).

Deep knowledge of Torah and commitment to Jewish law
He is expected to be a great Torah scholar and lead the Jewish people in following God’s commandments.

Restoration of Jewish national life
Traditional sources describe the Messiah as gathering the Jewish exiles back to the Land of Israel.

Restoration of the Temple service
Many traditional Jewish interpretations expect the rebuilding of the Temple in Jerusalem and restoration of its service.

No coercion or deception
The Messiah is not recognized merely because someone claims the title or performs signs; rather, recognition comes from whether the person actually fulfills the expected role and brings the prophesied changes.

Thanks for sharing, @MindHacker9009

Glad you began your piece with these words: "In traditional Jewish expectation"

Because traditional Jewish expectation doesn't define truth.

For instance, there are languages that do not have words to define certain concepts and realities.

Don't remember the language I read of sometime where they don't have the word for the colour "red". So for them, that colour doesn't exist

But is that true?

Isaiah 53 has baffled Jewish scholars with its message and implications. And this was written about 700 years before Jesus Christ

Thanks again for bringing this up

Thanks for your response @werisetogether

On "traditional expectation doesn't define truth"
That claim goes both ways. If Jewish tradition's self-understanding doesn't get to define what a Jewish text means, then no outside tradition's Christological reading gets to override it either, just by asserting itself. You can't use "tradition doesn't equal truth" to dismiss the reading of the community that wrote, preserved and has spent three thousand years living inside that text and language, while exempting a later, external interpretive tradition from the same scrutiny. If the standard is "show me it's true independent of who's reading it," that standard has to apply the same way to both sides.

This is exactly the point behind respecting African traditional religions on their own terms: an outsider looking at a Yoruba religion and saying "that doesn't mean what the Yorubas think it means, I know better" is like assuming you have the right to say or decide something when you actually don't. The same logic applies to a non-Hebrew-speaking tradition telling Jewish readers what their own scripture "really" says.

On the "no word for red" analogy
This one actually works against the argument, not for it. The claim that certain languages "lack a word for red, so the color doesn't exist for them" is a popular but oversimplified version of linguistic relativity. Studies on this (including the famous Himba/Berinmo color research) generally show speakers can still perceive and distinguish colors they don't have a dedicated word for, but it doesn't change whether they can actually see it. So the analogy, taken seriously, suggests the opposite of what it's being used for, lacking a specific frame doesn't mean lacking the ability to see what's there. Applied back to this discussion, it would mean Jewish readers are entirely capable of perceiving what's in Isaiah 53, not failing to notice something.

On "baffled Jewish scholars"
Isaiah 53 hasn't left Jewish tradition without an answer, it's had sustained, textually grounded engagement for centuries. Rashi and Ibn Ezra, among others, read the suffering servant as collective Israel, other strands in Jewish thought have proposed figures like Jeremiah or a suffering-but-not-final messianic figure distinct from the Christian narrative. "Baffled" is a framing imposed from outside the tradition, it's more accurate to say Jewish interpretation reached different conclusions than Christian interpretation, not that it reached no conclusion.

The core point
A text's primary interpretive home is the linguistic and religious community that produced it and has continuously read it in its original language and canonical context. That doesn't make outside readings illegitimate or forbidden to explore, but it does mean the burden sits with the outside tradition to justify why its later reading should displace the source community's own, not the other way around.

When he came the first time he surrendered meekly and embraced the grave, that was his purpose.

When he appears again, he will be martial.

He is the mighty unconquerable Warrior King who makes his enemies dribble watery sh!t!

Thanks for your detailed response, @MindHacker9009

Appreciate the thought you put into it. And you do have a right to your opinion.

However, I don't agree with certain aspects of your logic.

For instance: you said:

The same logic applies to a non-Hebrew-speaking tradition telling Jewish readers what their own scripture "really" says.

Correct me if I'm missing anything, but this seems to assume that the revelation of Jesus Christ as Messiah is a non-Hebrew speaking tradition.

That is NOT true.

Isaiah was Hebrew

Jesus Christ was born Hebrew

Paul was Hebrew

Peter was Hebrew

Apart from Luke who wrote the Gospel according to Luke and the Book of Acts, every other book of the New Testament was written by a Hebrew.

Let's face it: certain sections of the Hebrew community had beef with the Lord Jesus Christ. In fact, several documents containing their bitter condemnation of Him still survive.

You won't expect them to acknowledge the truth about Him, would you?

I'm grateful to GOD for the availability of various materials today where we all can do our independent research.

While we certainly have a right to our opinions, the truth is not a matter of opinion.

Thanks again and GOD bless

Thanks for your new response @werisetogether

Let's start with the translation of the Jewish Torah.

The Old Testament: Originally written in Hebrew with some portions in Aramaic, was then translated from Hebrew into Greek.

But the New Testament: Originally written in Greek, later translated into Hebrew. The New Testament was not translated from Hebrew, it went the other direction. These translations of all or part of the New Testament to Hebrew only date back as early as 1360 CE, and these are late medieval/early modern translations into Hebrew, made from the Greek (or from Latin), not the reverse.

So if the New Testament was from original Jewish writers and Jesus Christ in the New Testament is a Jew, then the original New Testament would have been written in Aramaic, which is Jesus Christ's own language, and in Hebrew.
Mind you that Aramaic and Hebrew are still spoken and written today just like Arabic, also Jesus Christ read the Isaiah scroll when He started His ministry, meaning Jesus was literate at that time. There were other Torah writers from thousands of years before, and there are other Jewish writers after the time of Jesus to this day still writing in Hebrew and Aramaic.

Even today Hebrew is still the official language in Israel. Jesus even instructed his disciples, "Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel" (Matthew 10:5–6). So now think about this: if Jesus's own mission and instructions were focused on Israel, why were the Gospels not first written in Hebrew or Aramaic, the languages of Jesus and his disciples, but instead first written in Greek, with a Hebrew translation only appearing from around 1360 CE?

The supposed time of the New Testament was like some parts of the Middle East today, which was occupied by the Roman Empire, who tried to impose their own idol worship on the Jews, but the Jews resisted this through different battles led by those claiming to be the messiah to free the Jews from Roman occupation. Then battles were by numbers as both had the same war objects. This was what led to the invention of a gentle Jesus Christ messiah by the Roman Empire as a phycological tool to try and stop the Jews from waging more wars with the Roman Empire.
The New Testament is not a history book, you are expected to just believe without critically questioning what it's talking about.

werisetogether:
Thanks for your detailed response, @MindHacker9009

Appreciate the thought you put into it. And you do have a right to your opinion.

However, I don't agree with certain aspects of your logic.

For instance: you said:

The same logic applies to a non-Hebrew-speaking tradition telling Jewish readers what their own scripture "really" says.

Correct me if I'm missing anything, but this seems to assume that the revelation of Jesus Christ as Messiah is a non-Hebrew speaking tradition.

That is NOT true.

Isaiah was Hebrew

Jesus Christ was born Hebrew

Paul was Hebrew

Peter was Hebrew

Apart from Luke who wrote the Gospel according to Luke and the Book of Acts, every other book of the New Testament was written by a Hebrew.

Let's face it: certain sections of the Hebrew community had beef with the Lord Jesus Christ. In fact, several documents containing their bitter condemnation of Him still survive.

You won't expect them to acknowledge the truth about Him, would you?

I'm grateful to GOD for the availability of various materials today where we all can do our independent research.

While we certainly have a right to our opinions, the truth is not a matter of opinion.

Thanks again and GOD bless

Funny enough the Jews themselves are not calling the Old Testament "Torah" but "Tanakh" the books Jews referred to as "Torah" are just the five books of Moses:

Genesis
Exodus
Leviticus
Numbers
Deuteronomy

So if anyone doesn't know this but still claiming he or she knows anything about the Jewish community i'm sorry as in really really sorry for such a person!😂

The Tanach (also spelled Tanakh) is the canonical collection of Jewish scriptures. It is the Hebrew Bible and forms the basis of what Christians call the Old Testament, though the order and grouping of the books differ.
The name Tanakh is an acronym made from its three sections:

Torah (תּוֹרָה) – "Teaching" or "Law"
Genesis
Exodus
Leviticus
Numbers
Deuteronomy

Nevi'im (נְבִיאִים) – "Prophets"
Former Prophets: Joshua, Judges, Samuel, Kings
Latter Prophets: Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, and the Twelve Minor Prophets (counted as one book)

Ketuvim (כְּתוּבִים) – "Writings"
Psalms
Proverbs
Job
Song of Songs
Ruth
Lamentations
Ecclesiastes
Esther
Daniel
Ezra–Nehemiah (counted as one book)
Chronicles (counted as one book)
In total, the Tanakh contains 24 books in the traditional Jewish count. These correspond to the 39 books of the Protestant Old Testament, but several books are combined differently in the Jewish tradition (for example, Samuel is one book rather than two).
The Tanakh was originally written primarily in Biblical Hebrew, with small portions in Aramaic (mainly parts of Daniel and Ezra).
If you're interested, I can also explain:
the difference between the Tanakh and the Old Testament,
how the books are organized,
or provide a reading plan through the Tanakh.

^^^^
For your information the: "Torah" is also commonly used more broadly within Judaism itself (e.g., "Torah study" covering the whole tradition), but the "Old Testament" isn't a Jewish term either, it's Christian.
So the terminology point doesn't actually touch the substance of what's being discussed here.

Ignorance coupled with arrogance!😂

MindHacker9009:
^^^^
For your information the: "Torah" is also commonly used more broadly within Judaism itself (e.g., "Torah study" covering the whole tradition), but the "Old Testament" isn't a Jewish term either, it's Christian.
So the terminology point doesn't actually touch the substance of what's being discussed here.

This first prophecy about the Messiah is found in the Bible book of Genesis 3:15

"And I will put enmity between you and the woman and between your offspring and her offspring. He will crush your head, and you will strike him in the heel.”

Messiah will get hurt through an attack from the serpent but eventually he will destroy the serpent.

Next is found in the Bible book of Genesis 12:3
"I will bless those who bless you, and I will curse him who calls down evil on you, and all the families of the ground will certainly be blessed by means of you"

God promised Abraham that the Messiah will come through his lineage as a savior for the entire human race!

Next is found in the Bible book of Genesis 17:21

"I will establish my covenant with Isaac, whom Sarah will bear to you at this appointed time next year.”

God transfered the promise to Isaac out of the two sons Abraham had.

If i should continue nobody can deny that this promise didn't narrow down to Jesus of Nazareth!🙂

MaxInDHouse:
Ignorance coupled with arrogance!😂

Your ignorance coupled with arrogance is the reason you want to come and derail this thread. Better for you to just watch and learn from your nursery school chair. 😂

MindHacker9009:
Your ignorance coupled with arrogance is the reason you want to come and derail this thread. Better for you to just watch and learn from your nursery school chair. 😂

I love this!

Now prove me wrong if truly you have any knowledge about what you claim.

At least i've shown you from the onset that you don't even know the difference between TORAH and TANAKH.

When the two different genealogies are that of Joseph but not that of your Jesus Christ.

MaxInDHouse:
This first prophecy about the Messiah is found in the Bible book of Genesis 3:15

"And I will put enmity between you and the woman and between your offspring and her offspring. He will crush your head, and you will strike him in the heel.”

Messiah will get hurt through an attack from the serpent but eventually he will destroy the serpent.

Next is found in the Bible book of Genesis 12:3
"I will bless those who bless you, and I will curse him who calls down evil on you, and all the families of the ground will certainly be blessed by means of you"

God promised Abraham that the Messiah will come through his lineage as a savior for the entire human race!

Next is found in the Bible book of Genesis 17:21

"I will establish my covenant with Isaac, whom Sarah will bear to you at this appointed time next year.”

God transfered the promise to Isaac out of the two sons Abraham had.

If i should continue nobody can deny that this promise didn't narrow down to Jesus of Nazareth!🙂

Let's move on to Genesis 49:10

The scepter will not depart from Judah, neither the commander’s staff from between his feet, until Shiʹloh comes, and to him the obedience of the peoples will belong.

Jacob (Israel) told his sons what will become of them and their descendants in the future and there he told them that headship will not depart from the lineage of Judah (his fourth son) until the Messiah arrives and to him the obedience of the PEOPLES will belong!

PEOPLES here means mankind in general!

MindHacker9009:
When the two different genealogies are that of Joseph but not that of your Jesus Christ.

Who is the supposed father of Jesus? Luke 3:23🙂

The "Torah" is often used broadly, even within Jewish tradition itself, because it holds primary religious and legal centrality, and it's treated as the core around which the rest of Tanakh is read and applied.

MaxInDHouse:
I love this!

Now prove me wrong if truly you have any knowledge about what you claim.

At least i've shown you from the onset that you don't even know the difference between TORAH and TANAKH.

Let's put distraction in its place!

Now where most historians and Jews got lost in the puzzle is why could Jesus be the Christ (Messiah) but couldn't fulfill all that was written in the TANAKH about the Messiah in his lifetime?

Well David in one of the Ketuvim (writings) called Psalms wrote:

‭Psalms 110:1-7 NIV‬

The Lord says to my lord: “Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet.” The Lord will extend your mighty scepter from Zion, saying, “Rule in the midst of your enemies!” Your troops will be willing on your day of battle. Arrayed in holy splendor, your young men will come to you like dew from the morning’s womb. The Lord has sworn and will not change his mind: “You are a priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek.” The Lord is at your right hand; he will crush kings on the day of his wrath. He will judge the nations, heaping up the dead and crushing the rulers of the whole earth. He will drink from a brook along the way, and so he will lift his head high.

So from the above prophecy the Messiah will serve as both King and High Priest forever!

MindHacker9009:
The "Torah" is often used broadly, even within Jewish tradition itself, because it holds primary religious and legal centrality, and it's treated as the core around which the rest of Tanakh is read and applied.

Well the issue is much more than you can see because Jacob had twelve sons and when we say "JEWS" we are referring to just three tribes out of the twelve namely JUDAH, BENJAMIN and LEVI.

Now where are the other 9 or 10 sons as Jacob himself turned twelve to thirteen after making Joseph two tribes in Israel?

Well the other ten tribes are lost till today and they are known before they scattered as Samaritans.

Due to what happened to this ten tribes the Jews had to name the first five books separately from the other books because Samaritans only believe in the first five books of Moses as those books came directly from Moses whom they accepted as the only prophet sent to tell them about the arrival of the Messiah!

According to Moses this is what is found written in the Torah:

‭Deuteronomy 18:18-19 NIV‬
I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their fellow Israelites, and I will put my words in his mouth. He will tell them everything I command him. I myself will call to account anyone who does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name.

In view of this prophecy the lady from Samaria who spoke to Jesus of Nazareth said:


“I know that Messiah” (called Christ) “is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us.” ‭John 4:25 NIV‬

So the Samaritans also believe in the Messiah but they only hold onto the first five books of the Bible which the Jews called TORAH.

Hope you now understand why those books were separated as if they needed to be detached from the other books!🙂

What part of the TANAKH proved that the Messiah cannot complete his mission once in a lifetime?

There are two major prophecies so let's critically consider the two.


Who has believed our message and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed? He grew up before him like a tender shoot, and like a root out of dry ground. He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him, nothing in his appearance that we should desire him. He was despised and rejected by mankind, a man of suffering, and familiar with pain. Like one from whom people hide their faces he was despised, and we held him in low esteem. Surely he took up our pain and bore our suffering, yet we considered him punished by God, stricken by him, and afflicted. But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was on him, and by his wounds we are healed. We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to our own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before its shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth. By oppression and judgment he was taken away. Yet who of his generation protested? For he was cut off from the land of the living; for the transgression of my people he was punished. He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death, though he had done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth. Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer, and though the Lord makes his life an offering for sin, he will see his offspring and prolong his days, and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand. After he has suffered, he will see the light of life and be satisfied; by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities. Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, and he will divide the spoils with the strong, because he poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors. For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors. ‭Isaiah 53:1-12 NIV‬

Please who among the Jews is Isaiah prophesying about in this chapter?

And before you answer please consider what Daniel also said about the Messiah:


After the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the (Messiah) will be put to death and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed. ‭Daniel 9:26 NIV‬

Please explain why the Messiah needs to be put to death (killed) so that Jesus of Nazareth wouldn't fit into the narrative?🤔

@MaxInDHouse

Many Jews suffered and were cut off under Roman rule in that same era, Jesus Christ of Nazareth wasn't unique in that respect. Suffering and being cut off alone, without a specific claim to being Israel's anointed deliverer being fulfilled, doesn't distinguish one figure from another as the Messiah described in the verse you quoted.

Jesus ben Ananias is a closer historical match as he was a prophet who wandered Jerusalem in the 60s CE warning of the Temple's destruction, was flogged by Roman authorities, and was cut off during the siege of Jerusalem in 70 CE.

MindHacker9009:
@MaxInDHouse
Many Jews suffered and were cut off under Roman rule in that same era, Jesus Christ of Nazareth wasn't unique in that respect. Suffering and being cut off alone, without a specific claim to being Israel's anointed deliverer being fulfilled, doesn't distinguish one figure from another as the Messiah described in the verse you quoted.

First of all do you agree with these scriptures that the ORIGINAL MESSIAH can't complete his mission once in a lifetime?
Let's settle the matter one by one.

If you agree with those prophecies then we will now deliberate on what period of time could the prophecy be fulfilled regarding the birth of the Messiah.🙂

The important point of reasoning here is that, if Jesus Christ was truly the promised Messiah, one would expect him to have left behind a written book of his own. The prophets who came before him were instructed by God to record and deliver the messages they received. Therefore, if Jesus was the Messiah, it would be reasonable to expect him to have provided a clear written teaching that would have united his followers throughout history. However, this is not what happened, as his followers have developed different interpretations and traditions over time based on what they are told He said, which cannot be independently verified.

Deuteronomy 18:21–22
“And if you say in your heart, ‘How may we know the word that the LORD has not spoken?’ when a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the word does not come to pass, that is the word which the LORD has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him.”

MaxInDHouse:
First of all do you agree with these scriptures that the ORIGINAL MESSIAH can't complete his mission once in a lifetime?
Let's settle the matter one by one.

If you agree with those prophecies then we will now deliberate on what period of time could the prophecy be fulfilled regarding the birth of the Messiah.🙂

I will address this issue but first let us conclude on the point that the Messiah cannot fulfill all messianic prophecies in a lifetime!

Do you agree with what the scriptures says on that note?🤔

MindHacker9009:
The important point of reasoning here is that, if Jesus Christ was truly the promised Messiah, one would expect him to have left behind a written book of his own. The prophets who came before him were instructed by God to record and deliver the messages they received. Therefore, if Jesus was the Messiah, it would be reasonable to expect him to have provided a clear written teaching that would have united his followers throughout history. However, this is not what happened, as his followers have developed different interpretations and traditions over time based on what they are told He said, which cannot be independently verified.
Deuteronomy 18:21–22
“And if you say in your heart, ‘How may we know the word that the LORD has not spoken?’ when a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the word does not come to pass, that is the word which the LORD has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him.”

First, we need to establish who the Messiah is. To illustrate the reasoning, consider a similar situation involving another religion.

Say it is the Ifa religion we are discussing. Will you accept that Ifa priests and worshippers don't know who their Messiah is, and that it was the Europeans who came from Europe during colonisation who had to explain to Ifa priests and worshippers that the son of Ifa, born of a virgin in Abeokuta during colonisation, is their promised Messiah? Who will you believe in this case?

The question is about examining how we determine the identity of a promised figure and what evidence should be used.

This relates to the principle found in Deuteronomy 18:21–22, which explains that claims made in the name of the LORD should be tested:

Deuteronomy 18:21–22
“And if you say in your heart, ‘How may we know the word that the LORD has not spoken?’ when a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the word does not come to pass, that is the word which the LORD has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him.”

MaxInDHouse:
I will address this issue but first let us conclude on the point that the Messiah cannot fulfill all messianic prophecies in a lifetime!

Do you agree with what the scriptures says on that note?🤔

All these we will discuss but first of all do you agree with those scriptures that the Messiah cannot complete his mission once in a lifetime?🤔

MindHacker9009:
First, we need to establish who the Messiah is. To illustrate the reasoning, consider a similar situation involving another religion. Say it is the Ifa religion we are discussing. Will you accept that Ifa priests and worshippers don't know who their Messiah is, and that it was the Europeans who came from Europe during colonisation who had to explain to Ifa priests and worshippers that the son of Ifa, born of a virgin in Abeokuta during colonisation, is their promised Messiah? Who will you believe in this case? The question is about examining how we determine the identity of a promised figure and what evidence should be used. This relates to the principle found in Deuteronomy 18:21–22, which explains that claims made in the name of the LORD should be tested:
Deuteronomy 18:21–22
“And if you say in your heart, ‘How may we know the word that the LORD has not spoken?’ when a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the word does not come to pass, that is the word which the LORD has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him.”

[Updated]
1. How does this passage relate to Jesus Christ?
2. From this passage it's clear that this person will complete his mission the first time. So for your question, NO, I do not agree with you.
"he will see his offspring and prolong his days, and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand. After he has suffered, he will see the light of life and be satisfied; by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities. Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, and he will divide the spoils with the strong, because he poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors. For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors." ‭Isaiah 53:1-12 NIV‬

Deuteronomy 18:21–22
“And if you say in your heart, ‘How may we know the word that the LORD has not spoken?’ when a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the word does not come to pass, that is the word which the LORD has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him.”

MaxInDHouse:
All these we will discuss but first of all do you agree with those scriptures that the Messiah cannot complete his mission once in a lifetime?🤔

MindHacker9009:
From this passage it's clear that this person will complete his mission the first time. So for your question, NO, I do not agree with you.
"he will see his offspring and prolong his days, and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand. After he has suffered, he will see the light of life and be satisfied; by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities. Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, and he will divide the spoils with the strong, because he poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors. For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors." ‭Isaiah 53:1-12 NIV‬

This verse is telling us what the Messiah will accomplish but definitely not in a lifetime.

WHY?

Because Daniel said:

And after the 62 weeks, Mes·siʹah will be cut off, with nothing for himself. “And the people of a leader who is coming will destroy the city and the holy place. And its end will be by the flood. And until the end there will be war; what is decided upon is desolations. Daniel 9:26

So if the Messiah will be cut off with nothing for himself how will he see his offsprings and prolong his days?

We all know that when a person is cut off it means killed and when someone dies we can't say he has nothing to himself if he is survived by children!

So how do you expect him to fulfill all of that if he will be cut off with nothing for himself?🤔

Isaiah explicitly calls Israel “my servant” “But you, Israel, my servant,...” Isaiah 41:8
And Isaiah 53 itself can fit Israel's experience. The servant is:
1. Despised and rejected
2. Afflicted
3. Oppressed
4. Suffering unjustly
5. Associated with transgressors
6. Ultimately vindicated
and
7. Afterward receives an exalted position

"he will see his offspring and prolong his days, and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand. After he has suffered, he will see the light of life and be satisfied; by his knowledge my righteous servant [/b]will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities. Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, and he will divide the spoils with the strong, because he poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors. For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors." ‭Isaiah 53:1-12 NIV‬

[b]Ezekiel 37:11–12 Israel's “death” and restoration
This is particularly relevant to an Israel-as-servant interpretation:
“Our bones are dried up and our hope is gone; we are cut off.” “Son of man, these bones are the people of Israel.”

Then God says:

“Therefore prophesy and say to them: ‘This is what the Sovereign LORD says: My people, I am going to open your graves and bring you up from them; I will bring you back to the land of Israel.’”

Here Israel says “we are cut off,” yet God subsequently restores them.

So when you connect this passage to Isaiah you are referring to Israel.
And after the 62 weeks, Mes·siʹah will be cut off, with nothing for himself. “And the people of a leader who is coming will destroy the city and the holy place. And its end will be by the flood. And until the end there will be war; what is decided upon is desolations.

Deuteronomy 18:21–22
“And if you say in your heart, ‘How may we know the word that the LORD has not spoken?’ when a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the word does not come to pass, that is the word which the LORD has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him.”

MaxInDHouse:
This verse is telling us what the Messiah will accomplish but definitely not in a lifetime.

WHY?

Because Daniel said:

And after the 62 weeks, Mes·siʹah will be cut off, with nothing for himself. “And the people of a leader who is coming will destroy the city and the holy place. And its end will be by the flood. And until the end there will be war; what is decided upon is desolations. Daniel 9:26

So if the Messiah will be cut off with nothing for himself how will he see his offsprings and prolong his days?

We all know that when a person is cut off it means killed and when someone dies we can't say he has nothing to himself if he is survived by children!

So how do you expect him to fulfill all of that if he will be cut off with nothing for himself?🤔

So you meant everything we have read in those verses has nothing to do with the Messiah despite all what you've been saying since shey?

It's OK!🥱

MindHacker9009:
Isaiah explicitly calls Israel “my servant” “But you, Israel, my servant,...” Isaiah 41:8
And Isaiah 53 itself can fit Israel's experience. The servant is:
1. Despised and rejected
2. Afflicted
3. Oppressed
4. Suffering unjustly
5. Associated with transgressors
6. Ultimately vindicated
and
7. Afterward receives an exalted position

"he will see his offspring and prolong his days, and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand. After he has suffered, he will see the light of life and be satisfied; by his knowledge my righteous servant [/b]will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities. Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, and he will divide the spoils with the strong, because he poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors. For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors." ‭Isaiah 53:1-12 NIV‬

[b]Ezekiel 37:11–12 Israel's “death” and restoration
This is particularly relevant to an Israel-as-servant interpretation:
“Our bones are dried up and our hope is gone; we are cut off.” “Son of man, these bones are the people of Israel.”

Then God says:

“Therefore prophesy and say to them: ‘This is what the Sovereign LORD says: My people, I am going to open your graves and bring you up from them; I will bring you back to the land of Israel.’”

Here Israel says “we are cut off,” yet God subsequently restores them.

So when you connect this passage to Isaiah you are referring to Israel.
And after the 62 weeks, Mes·siʹah will be cut off, with nothing for himself. “And the people of a leader who is coming will destroy the city and the holy place. And its end will be by the flood. And until the end there will be war; what is decided upon is desolations.

Deuteronomy 18:21–22
“And if you say in your heart, ‘How may we know the word that the LORD has not spoken?’ when a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the word does not come to pass, that is the word which the LORD has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him.”

MindHacker9009:
Thanks for your new response @werisetogether

Let's start with the translation of the Jewish Torah.

The Old Testament: Originally written in Hebrew with some portions in Aramaic, was then translated from Hebrew into Greek.

But the New Testament: Originally written in Greek, later translated into Hebrew. The New Testament was not translated from Hebrew, it went the other direction. These translations of all or part of the New Testament to Hebrew only date back as early as 1360 CE, and these are late medieval/early modern translations into Hebrew, made from the Greek (or from Latin), not the reverse.

So if the New Testament was from original Jewish writers and Jesus Christ in the New Testament is a Jew, then the original New Testament would have been written in Aramaic, which is Jesus Christ's own language, and in Hebrew.
Mind you that Aramaic and Hebrew are still spoken and written today just like Arabic, also Jesus Christ read the Isaiah scroll when He started His ministry, meaning Jesus was literate at that time. There were other Torah writers from thousands of years before, and there are other Jewish writers after the time of Jesus to this day still writing in Hebrew and Aramaic.

Even today Hebrew is still the official language in Israel. Jesus even instructed his disciples, "Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel" (Matthew 10:5–6). So now think about this: if Jesus's own mission and instructions were focused on Israel, why were the Gospels not first written in Hebrew or Aramaic, the languages of Jesus and his disciples, but instead first written in Greek, with a Hebrew translation only appearing from around 1360 CE?

The supposed time of the New Testament was like some parts of the Middle East today, which was occupied by the Roman Empire, who tried to impose their own idol worship on the Jews, but the Jews resisted this through different battles led by those claiming to be the messiah to free the Jews from Roman occupation. Then battles were by numbers as both had the same war objects. This was what led to the invention of a gentle Jesus Christ messiah by the Roman Empire as a phycological tool to try and stop the Jews from waging more wars with the Roman Empire.
The New Testament is not a history book, you are expected to just believe without critically questioning what it's talking about.

Did you notice how you shifted goal-posts in your response?

I gave you a short list of Hebrews actively involved in our knowledge of the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ.

So surprised you've now turned to the translation of the Tanakh and Greek!

These kinds of stunts should be left for political parties na!

On a serious note, your latest response shows you're probably sourcing your info from the rabbis I referred to much earlier. The ones who were antagonistic towards the Lord Jesus Christ

To suggest that events that are verifiable even by non-Biblical historians were made up by Roman authorities speaks more of either refusal to do research or just plain mischief...