₦airaland Forum

Truthseeker10:
What was the purpose of Christ being called Rock in the verse above?

If one reads the entire Corinthians 10: 1 -5 and beyond, one can clearly see that St. Paul is describing the journey of the ancient Israelites through the desert and comparing them as a figure (biblically) to the Church of Jesus Christ.

"Now these things were done in a figure of us..."

1 Corinthians 10:6


(Contd.)

Truthseeker10:
below is 1 Corinthians 10:4.
King James Bible
And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ

What was the purpose of Christ being called Rock in the verse above?

As we see,

Under the conduct of Moses they received baptism in figure, by passing under the cloud.

"And all in Moses were baptized, in the cloud, and in the sea..."
1 Corinthians 10:2

And they partook of the body and blood of Christ in figure, by eating of the manna, (called here a spiritual food, because it was a figure of the true bread which comes down from heaven)

"And did all eat the same spiritual food,..."
1 Corinthians 10: 3-4

And drinking the water miraculously brought out of the rock, called here a spiritual rock; because it was also a figure of Christ, Who gives us living water to drink.

"And all drank the same spiritual drink; (and they drank of the spiritual rock that followed them, and the rock was Christ.)"
1 Corinthians 10: 4


(Contd.)

Truthseeker10:
What was the purpose of Christ being called Rock in the verse above?

So we see that the chapter as a whole uses the Israelites in the desert as a prefigurment of the Church of Christ.
They were baptized in the cloud, and in the sea, figuratively, these being figures of baptism in the new law. As Moses, who delivered them from the slavery of Egypt, was himself a figure of Christ, who came to deliver mankind from the slavery of sin.

(Contd.)

Truthseeker10:
What was the purpose of Christ being called Rock in the verse above?

The specific answer to your question:

So the rock, which gave water to the Israelites is a figure of Jesus, who gives His people living water.

That's why Abraham was also called rock, because he gave the children of God the teaching of the True God, which is 'living water'.

That's why Peter was also called rock, because by his doctrine, the teaching of the True God which is bound on earth and in Heaven, he also gives the children of God the 'living water'.


(Contd.)

Truthseeker10:
What was the purpose of Christ being called Rock in the verse above?

In sum, St. Paul

by referencing baptism (which rescues people from spiritual death) by the waters which rescued Israel from certain slavery and death,...
(I'm assuming that as a Protestant you reject the doctrine of baptismal regeneration. Another biblical fail, but later for that)

by referencing the Body and Blood of Christ (i.e the Eucharist) with his reference to spiritual food (manna, the Old Testament bread from heaven)...

and by referencing living water with his reference to the rock which gave Israel life-giving water as does Peter the rock of the New Testament...

he (St. Paul) is emphatically describing the Israelites in the desert as a figure of the Catholic Church and the Catholic faith, the true religion of God.

"Now all these things happened to them in figure..."
1 Corinthians 10: 11

(Contd.)

Truthseeker10:
What was the purpose of Christ being called Rock in the verse above?

You see that the answer to your question actually proves the Biblical teaching of not only the Petrine Primacy but the Catholic religion as well.

Please don't fight this further. Although I can't stop you if you choose to do so.

But the truth is stark and obvious to anyone of good will.

Done.

Remember, all this is still part of my response to your rejection of my very first, and yet only so far, Biblical verse proving the Papacy.

.

GaelllicII:
The specific answer to your question:

So the rock, which gave water to the Israelites is a figure of Jesus, who gives His people living water.

That's why Abraham was also called rock, because he gave the children of God the teaching of the True God, which is 'living water'.

That's why Peter was also called rock, because by his doctrine, the teaching of the True God which is bound on earth and in Heaven, he also gives the children of God the 'living water'.


(Contd.)

Please always give specific answer to questions. Your long write ups are not necessary.

Below is Ephesians 2:19-21.

19Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

Did Paul in the above verse say that Peter was the "foundational stone" or that he was the only one that was responsible for giving living water according to you?

Truthseeker10:
Did Paul in the above verse say that Peter was the "foundational stone"

He basically did.

He says that the Apostles and prophets are the foundation with Christ Himself being the chief corner stone.

Jesus' supreme Headship does not contradict other heads within the edifice.

Truthseeker10:
Did Paul in the above verse say that Peter... was the only one that was responsible for giving living water according to you?

Contextually, yes he did.
Jesus Christ had earlier said of Peter:

"Simon, Simon, behold, Satan desired to have all of you (plural), that he might sift you like wheat, but I have prayed for you (singular) that your (singular) faith fail not. And when you have turned again, strengthen your brothers."
Luke 22: 31-32

All bishops have authority to teach the flock, but Jesus makes it clear who has the supreme authority.
Peter is the chief bishop.

In the face of the Devil's mischief, Jesus tells us that He has prayed for Peter alone (this is quite clear in the Greek, He speaks to Peter with a singular 'you').

Jesus prayed specifically for Peter that he might be blessed with a 'faith that fails not'. 'Faith that fails not' means 'infallible'.

So contextually, St. Paul tells us that the Apostles are the foundation of the Church, which doesn't contradict Peter's position as the visible head who:

(i) has received from Jesus an infallible charism by which he declares dogmatic truths
(ii) has received from Jesus a mandate to strengthen his brother Bishops.

(This was to prevent the horror which Protestantism eventually fell into, with numerous 'leaders' leading numerous factions teaching irreconcilable doctrines.)

There must be one head.
So says Jesus Christ.

Truthseeker10:
Please always give specific answer to questions. Your long write ups are not necessary.

As to that, they might be unnecessary to you, but I hope they will be useful to someone of good will around here.

GaelllicII:
Contextually, yes he did.
Jesus Christ had earlier said of Peter:

"Simon, Simon, behold, Satan desired to have all of you (plural), that he might sift you like wheat, but I have prayed for you (singular) that your (singular) faith fail not. And when you have turned again, strengthen your brothers."
Luke 22: 31-32

All bishops have authority to teach the flock, but Jesus makes it clear who has the supreme authority.
Peter is the chief bishop.

In the face of the Devil's mischief, Jesus tells us that He has prayed for Peter alone (this is quite clear in the Greek, He speaks to Peter with a singular 'you').

Jesus prayed specifically for Peter that he might be blessed with a 'faith that fails not'. 'Faith that fails not' means 'infallible'.

So contextually, St. Paul tells us that the Apostles are the foundation of the Church, which doesn't contradict Peter's position as the visible head who:

(i) has received from Jesus an infallible charism by which he declares dogmatic truths
(ii) has received from Jesus a mandate to strengthen his brother Bishops.

(This was to prevent the horror which Protestantism eventually fell into, with numerous 'leaders' leading numerous factions teaching irreconcilable doctrines.)

There must be one head.
So says Jesus Christ.

This is funny....you claimed earlier that Peter was the foundational stone of the church. So where did Paul make this distinction in Ephesians 2:19 in referring to the Apostles and prophet as the foundation and referring to Jesus as the chief cornerstone?

Truthseeker10:
This is funny....you claimed earlier that Peter was the foundational stone of the church. So where did Paul make this distinction in Ephesians 2:19 in referring to the Apostles and prophet as the foundation and referring to Jesus as the chief cornerstone?

If you think this is funny, then you are either lying to yourself or you simply don't understand the issue.

A cornerstone (or foundation stone or setting stone) is the first stone set in the construction of a masonry foundation. All other stones will be set in reference to this stone, thus determining the position of the entire structure
- Wikipedia, 'Cornerstone'

A chief or head cornerstone is placed above two walls to keep them together and prevent the building from falling apart.
- Wikipedia, 'Cornerstone'


(i) A cornerstone is the first stone in a foundation.

(ii) A subsequent stones are set in reference to this one.

(iii) The use of 'chief' or 'head' cornerstone denotes that there may be more than one stone having a similar function in the edifice.

Jesus' supreme Headship is not contradicted by another person bearing the same or similar title.

Your dad bearing the title 'Father' does not contradict God's role as 'Our Father'.

You are really descending into silliness, as I warned against.

GaelllicII:
If you think this is funny, then you are either lying to yourself or you simply don't understand the issue.

A cornerstone (or foundation stone or setting stone) is the first stone set in the construction of a masonry foundation. All other stones will be set in reference to this stone, thus determining the position of the entire structure
- Wikipedia, 'Cornerstone'

A chief or head cornerstone is placed above two walls to keep them together and prevent the building from falling apart.
- Wikipedia, 'Cornerstone'


(i) A cornerstone is the first stone in a foundation.

(ii) A subsequent stones are set in reference to this one.

(iii) The use of 'chief' or 'head' cornerstone denotes that there may be more than one stone having a similar function in the edifice.

Jesus' supreme Headship is not contradicted by another person bearing the same or similar title.

Your dad bearing the title 'Father' does not contradict God's role as 'Our Father'.

You are really descending into silliness, as I warned against.

All of these are stories.....in Ephesians 2:20, Was there a seperate hierarchy for Peter as the foundational stone apart from the apostles and prophet and Jesus being the chief cornerstone?

Truthseeker10:
All of these are stories.....in Ephesians 2:19, Was there a seperate hierarchy for Peter as the foundational stone apart from the apostles and prophet and Jesus being the chief cornerstone?

Why would there be any need for a 'separate hierarchy' as you said?

This is very simple to understand, if one is honest.

GaelllicII:
Why would there be any need for a 'separate hierarchy' as you said?

This is very simple to understand, if one is honest.

You are the one not honest. If Peter had any special foundation, it would have been mentioned. The verse clearly says foundation of the apostles and Jesus being the chief cornerstone. So where is the recognition of Peter as opposed to the position of the other Apostles and prophet?

Truthseeker10:
19Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20And are built upon the [b]foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;[/b] 21In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

The household of God is built on the foundation of the Apostles and prophets, Scripture says.

Peter was an Apostle. We agree, don't we?

GaelllicII:
The household of God is built on the foundation of the Apostles and prophets, Scripture says.

Peter was an Apostle. We agree, don't we?

So where is your Peter's special recognition as Foundational stone according to you? That is the question. Stop deflecting.

Truthseeker10:
You are the one not honest. If Peter had any special foundation, it would have been mentioned. The verse clearly says foundation of the apostles and Jesus being the chief cornerstone. So where is the recognition of Peter as opposed to the position of the other Apostles and prophet?

So I assume you agree (unless you wish to dispute this) that Peter was part of the foundation of Church.

The recognition of Peter as having a special position among the Apostles i.e 'a special position in the foundation' is right here below, as well as all over the New Testament.


"And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven."
Matthew 16: 16-29

So are you denying that Jesus gave Peter special recognition among the Apostles?

You know that would mean denying Christ, right?

GaelllicII:
So I assume you agree (unless you wish to dispute this) that Peter was part of the foundation of Church.

The recognition of Peter as having a special position among the Apostles i.e 'a special position in the foundation' is right here below, as well as all over the New Testament.


"And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven."
Matthew 16: 16-29

So are you denying that Jesus gave Peter special recognition among the Apostles?

You know that would mean denying Christ, right?

Oga you are grabbing straw. The above verse is not a definitive evidence. The Rock reffered to in that verse is Jesus on which the church is built as corroborated in Ephesians 2:20. Peter and other apostles and prophets are foundation while Jesus is the chief cornerstone.

Truthseeker10:
Oga you are grabbing straw. The above verse is not a definitive evidence. The Rock reffered to in that verse is Jesus on which the church is built as corroborated in Ephesians 2:20. Peter and other apostles and prophets are foundation while Jesus is the chief cornerstone.

Let me get this straight.

You are arguing that

Jesus Christ changed Simon's name to a word translated 'rock'

so that He, Jesus Christ in conversation with Simon,
could use the word translated 'rock' (Simon's new name)
not in reference to Simon
but to Himself?

Be honest with me and with yourself.
How does this make sense?
Why then did Jesus change Simon's name to 'rock' in the first place?

Truthseeker10:
Oga you are grabbing straw. The above verse is not a definitive evidence. The Rock reffered to in that verse is Jesus on which the church is built as corroborated in Ephesians 2:20. Peter and other apostles and prophets are foundation while Jesus is the chief cornerstone.

Let me get this straight.

You are arguing that

Jesus Christ changed Simon's name to a word translated 'rock'

so that He, Jesus Christ in conversation with Simon,
could use the word translated 'rock'(Simon's new name)
not in reference to Simon
but to Himself?

Be honest with me and with yourself.
How does this make sense?
Why then did Jesus change Simon's name to 'rock' in the first place?

GaelllicII:
At 6:46 Oct 14, you were asked this, and once again you avoided/ignored it.

It must have occurred to you that your position makes no sense.

Hence, your avoidance of this question (the same question) earlier.

GaelllicII:
Let me get this straight.

You are arguing that

Jesus Christ changed Simon's name to a word translated 'rock'

so that He, Jesus Christ in conversation with Simon,
could use the word translated 'rock'(Simon's new name)
not in reference to Simon
but to Himself?

Be honest with me and with yourself.
How does this make sense?
Why then did Jesus change Simon's name to 'rock' in the first place?

Oga you are twisting....Jesus did not say On this "Peter" or "Cephas" I would build my church. He used the Greek Petra and not Petros which is translated Peter/Cephas.

Oga if you agree that Jesus Christ himself is reffered to as Rock, why can't the Rock in that verse refer to him? Infact, was the conversation not about who the "Christ" was?

Truthseeker10:
Oga you are twisting....Jesus did not say On this "Peter" or "Cephas" I would build my church. He used the Greek Petra and not Petros which is translated Peter/Cephas.

Oga if you agree that Jesus Christ himself is reffered to as Rock, why can't the Rock in that verse refer to him? Infact, was the conversation not about who the "Christ" was?

You are the one who appears twisted (crooked).

You, till this very moment are still avoiding the question:

Why did Jesus change Simon's name at all.
Why this unique act among the Apostles?
For no reason?
For fun and games?

Or was it for the same reason that Abram's name was changed to Abraham?

To signify that he was to be father of (the New) Israel.

"Give ear to me, you that follow that which is just, and you that seek the Lord: look unto the rock whence you are hewn, and to the hole of the pit from which you are dug out. Look unto Abraham your father, and to Sara that bore you: for I called him alone, and blessed him, and multiplied him."

Isaias (Isaiah) 51:1-2

Look at the symmetry. God calls Abraham 'rock' and immediately reminds us that He called Abraham alone, to be uniquely blessed.

Perhaps you'll argue that God changing Abram's name was pointless.

And that in His calling Abraham 'rock', He was simply referring to Himself.

You keep descending further down this
silliness hole.

For what purpose?

GaelllicII:
You are the one who appears twisted (crooked).

You, till this very moment are still avoiding the question:

Why did Jesus change Simon's name at all.
Why this unique act among the Apostles?
For no reason?
For fun and games?

Or was it for the same reason that Abram's name was changed to Abraham?

To signify that he was to be father of (the New) Israel.

"Give ear to me, you that follow that which is just, and you that seek the Lord: look unto the rock whence you are hewn, and to the hole of the pit from which you are dug out. Look unto Abraham your father, and to Sara that bore you: for I called him alone, and blessed him, and multiplied him."

Isaias (Isaiah) 51:1-2

Look at the symmetry. God calls Abraham 'rock' and immediately reminds us that He called Abraham alone, to be uniquely blessed.

Perhaps you'll argue that God changing Abram's name was pointless.

And that in His calling Abraham 'rock', He was simply referring to Himself.

You keep descending further down this
silliness hole.

For what purpose?

Ok.....why are the apostles and prophets reffered to as foundation of the church if they were not called "Peter" or "cephas" by Jesus?

Truthseeker10:
Ok.....why are the apostles and prophets reffered to as foundation of the church if they were not called "Peter" or "cephas" by Jesus?

In engineering, a foundation is the element of a structure that connects it to the ground, or more rarely water...

Foundations provide the structure's stability from the ground:...

To anchor the structure against natural forces including earthquakes, floods, droughts, frost heaves, tornadoes and wind.
- Wikipedia, Foundation (Engineering)


A cornerstone (or foundation stone or setting stone) is the first stone set in the construction of a masonry foundation. All other stones will be set in reference to this stone, thus determining the position of the entire structure
- Wikipedia, 'Cornerstone'

(i) The foundation is the lowest structural element that connects the edifice to the ground.
(ii) The cornerstone is the first stone (not the only stone) within the structure of the foundation.
(iii)The cornerstone is the reference point for all subsequent stones.

The relationship ought to be very clear.

The Apostles and prophets are 'all together' the foundation (stones)of God's house.
But there is a first stone that provides reference for all the rest.
That first stone is the rock.

Specific answer to your question:

The Apostles and prophets are not called 'Peter' or 'Cephas' because they are foundation stones but not the first (or primary) one.

Peter is.

This is clearly what is being represented in the verse below.

"Simon, Simon, behold, Satan desired to have all of you (plural), that he might sift you like wheat, but I have prayed for you (singular) that your (singular) faith fail not. And when you (singular) have turned again, strengthen your brothers."

Luke 22: 31-32

Peter is clearly the reference point.

GaelllicII:
In engineering, a foundation is the element of a structure that connects it to the ground, or more rarely water...

Foundations provide the structure's stability from the ground:...

To anchor the structure against natural forces including earthquakes, floods, droughts, frost heaves, tornadoes and wind.
- Wikipedia, Foundation (Engineering)


A cornerstone (or foundation stone or setting stone) is the first stone set in the construction of a masonry foundation. All other stones will be set in reference to this stone, thus determining the position of the entire structure
- Wikipedia, 'Cornerstone'

(i) The foundation is the lowest structural element that connects the edifice to the ground.
(ii) The cornerstone is the first stone (not the only stone) within the structure of the foundation.
(iii)The cornerstone is the reference point for all subsequent stones.

The relationship ought to be very clear.

The Apostles and prophets are 'all together' the foundation (stones)of God's house.
But there is a first stone that provides reference for all the rest.
That first stone is the rock.

Specific answer to your question:

The Apostles and prophets are not called 'Peter' or 'Cephas' because they are foundation stones but not the first (or primary) one.

Peter is.

This is clearly what is being represented in the verse below.

"Simon, Simon, behold, Satan desired to have all of you (plural), that he might sift you like wheat, but I have prayed for you (singular) that your (singular) faith fail not. And when you (singular) have turned again, strengthen your brothers."

Luke 22: 31-32

Peter is clearly the reference point.

Oga there is no where in Luke 22:31-32 where Peter was called a primary foundation stone. You are adding to scriptures. Ephesians 2:20 is clear that the the apostles and prophets are the foundation while Jesus is the chief cornerstone. There is no mention of a special stone for Peter. Kindly show me in the scriptures where Peter is called "primary foundation stone".

Truthseeker10:
Oga there is no where in Luke 22:31-32 where Peter was called a primary foundation stone. You are adding to scriptures. Ephesians 2:20 is clear that the the apostles and prophets are the foundation while Jesus is the chief cornerstone. There is no mention of a special stone for Peter. Kindly show me in the scriptures where Peter is called "primary foundation stone".

Are you being serious?

Or are you, like the earlier Protestant I encountered, simply playing dumb?

(Contd.)

Truthseeker10:
Ok.....why are the apostles and prophets reffered to as foundation of the church if they were not called "Peter" or "cephas" by Jesus?

I actually thought I was getting somewhere with you.

This is the question from you which I correctly and clearly answered.

(Contd.)

GaelllicII:
Specific answer to your question:

The Apostles and prophets are not called 'Peter' or 'Cephas' because they are foundation stones but not the first (or primary) one.

Peter is.

This is clearly what is being represented in the verse below.

"Simon, Simon, behold, Satan desired to have all of you (plural), that he might sift you like wheat, but I have prayed for you (singular) that your (singular) faith fail not. And when you (singular) have turned again, strengthen your brothers."

Luke 22: 31-32

Peter is clearly the reference point.

I clearly wrote up there that:

The Apostles and prophets are not called 'Peter' or 'Cephas' because they are foundation stones but not the first (or primary) one.

And then gave Scriptural evidence as to why St. Peter was first or primary by citing
Luke 22: 31-32.

(Contd.)