₦airaland Forum

shdemidemi:
You might have to redefine justification, if a christian will be eventually judged to be saved by 'works' and not wholly by the tremendous salvation by Grace. What do you say 'justification' is again?

Check that word 'taste'... I don't sustain any form of energy from some thing I simply taste. I can keep having a taste and yet starve to death. I must latch on it if I really want to partake in it.

We are justified by faith and when you loss your faith you are no longer justified - the just shall live by faith and the just can also die by losing their faith.
Therefore Christians can loss there salvation not because of their work but because of deadness of their faith. This was what Paul was trying to explain to the Jew who were rejecting Jesus and going back to Judaism.

We argument justified by faith in Jesus and this justification can be undo by losing faith in Jesus

vooks:
This is not English but Greek my friend
What do you think tasting heavenly gift and the good word of the Lord means?
What is the 'heavenly gift' any way?

Like English one word can mean different things in Greek, it should be part of our study to robustly check every word, I am sure you agree.

I think it means 'awareness' of heavenly gift.

Hiswordxray:
We are justified by faith and when you loss your faith you are no longer justified - the just shall live by faith and the just can also die by losing their faith.
Therefore Christians can loss there salvation not because of their work but because of deadness of their faith. This was what Paul was trying to explain to the Jew who were rejecting Jesus and going back to Judaism.

We argument justified by faith in Jesus and this justification can be undo by losing faith in Jesus

1)Could you please help with your definition of justification.

2)Is it in me to believe or is it by my power that I come to believe/have faith?

And lost means what? Going on a picnic?


1 Corinthians 8:11 King James Version (KJV)
11 And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?

shdemidemi:
Unnecessary..



Context- Perish- 'lost'

γεύομαι (geuomai)

Strong: G1089

GK: G1174

to taste, Mt. 27:34; Jn. 2:9; absol. to take food, Acts 10:10, et al.; met. to have perception of, experience, Heb. 6:4, 5; 1 Pet. 2:3; θανάτου γεύεσθαι, to experience death, to die, Mt. 16:28, et al.

Stop 'thinking' and start reading. Obviously it means 'to have perception of' or to EXPERIENCE
Now, what is the 'heavenly gift' and 'word of life' in this context?

shdemidemi:
Like English one word can mean different things in Greek, it should be part of our study to robustly check every word, I am sure you agree.

I think it means 'awareness' of heavenly gift.

vooks:
And lost means what? Going on a picnic?


1 Corinthians 8:11 King James Version (KJV)
11 And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?

'Lost' can mean the loss of reward like many people have said in different ways on this thread.

vooks:
γεύομαι (geuomai)

Strong: G1089

GK: G1174

to taste, Mt. 27:34; Jn. 2:9; absol. to take food, Acts 10:10, et al.; met. to have perception of, experience, Heb. 6:4, 5; 1 Pet. 2:3; θανάτου γεύεσθαι, to experience death, to die, Mt. 16:28, et al.

Stop 'thinking' and start reading. Obviously it means 'to have perception of' or to EXPERIENCE
Now, what is the 'heavenly gift' and 'word of life' in this context?

2. to taste, i. e. perceive the flavor of, partake of, enjoy: τίνος, Luke 14:24 (γεύσεται μου τοῦ δείπνου, i. e. shall partake of my banquet); hence, as in Greek writings from Homer down, equivalent to to feel, make trial of, experience: τίνος, Hebrews 6:4

I told you earlier that 'taste' can mean more things than one even in the Greek language, I am sure you get that now. The emphasised is what it means to 'taste'- It says 'equivalent to to feel, make trial of, experience'. Nothing gives an idea of full conviction and persuasion of the gospel of grace by the Jews in the book of Hebrew especially not when they only 'made trial of' the message of Grace Paul taught.

Unlike the Hebrews/Jews, the church believed the gospel completely without the works,rituals and feasts with its demands, thus received the Spirit.

It can also mean LOSS of hair. Cut the BS and tell me what it means not what it can mean.

God says the brother PERISHES not loses something

1Cor 8:11 (KJV)
And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?

Here is Young's Literal Translation
1Cor 8:11 (Young's Literal Translation of the Holy Bible - YL) 11 and the brother who is infirm shall perish by thy knowledge, because of whom Christ died?

shdemidemi:
'Lost' can mean the loss of reward like many people have said in different ways on this thread.

You are confusing or confused. You are just another version of Frosbel hiding behind cliches and glib. You have in one swoop struck out 'Hebrew' epistles from NT as of less authority than 'Gentile' epistles.

Are you insinuating that the present salvation plan for Jews is different from Gentiles?

And finally, what is the 'heavenly gift' and 'good word of the Lord'

Hebrews 6:4-5 (KJV)
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Let's study at these people closely;
1. They are ENLIGHTENED
2. They have tasted the heavenly gift
3. They WERE made partakers of Holy Spirit...they received the SEAL as you alluded.
4. They have tasted the good word of the Lord
5. They have tasted the powers of the world to come...probably spiritual gifts

How do you claim that these were not Christians? How better are you than a believer who has had all these?

shdemidemi:
2. to taste, i. e. perceive the flavor of, partake of, enjoy: τίνος, Luke 14:24 (γεύσεται μου τοῦ δείπνου, i. e. shall partake of my banquet); hence, as in Greek writings from Homer down, equivalent to to feel, make trial of, experience: τίνος, Hebrews 6:4

I told you earlier that 'taste' can mean more things than one even in the Greek language, I am sure you get that now. The emphasised is what it means to 'taste'- It says 'equivalent to to feel, make trial of, experience'. Nothing gives an idea of full conviction and persuasion of the gospel of grace by the Jews in the book of Hebrew especially not when they only 'made trial of' the message of Grace Paul taught.

Unlike the Hebrews/Jews, the church believed the gospel completely without the works,rituals and feasts with its demands, thus received the Spirit.

vooks:
It can also mean LOSS of hair. Cut the BS and tell me what it means not what it can mean.

Upset?

vooks:
God says the brother PERISHES not loses something

1Cor 8:11 (KJV)
And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?

Here is Young's Literal Translation
1Cor 8:11 (Young's Literal Translation of the Holy Bible - YL) 11 and the brother who is infirm shall perish by thy knowledge, because of whom Christ died?

Now, lets use another scripture if it will help matters. A man slept with is father's wife in the church and he got excommunicated. What did Paul say about such person-

1 Cor 5
3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,

4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,

5 [size=28pt]To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus[/size]

Can you see destruction/perish does not necessarily mean 'de-saved'...

vooks:
You are confusing or confused. You are just another version of Frosbel hiding behind cliches and glib. You have in one swoop struck out 'Hebrew' epistles from NT as of less authority than 'Gentile' epistles.

Are you insinuating that the present salvation plan for Jews is different from Gentiles?

And finally, what is the 'heavenly gift' and 'good word of the Lord'

Hebrews 6:4-5 (KJV)
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Let's study at these people closely;
1. They are ENLIGHTENED
2. They have tasted the heavenly gift
3. They WERE made partakers of Holy Spirit...they received the SEAL as you alluded.
4. They have tasted the good word of the Lord
5. They have tasted the powers of the world to come...probably spiritual gifts

How do you claim that these were not Christians? How better are you than a believer who has had all these?

hahahaha, Christians who cannot agree on anything except to fight against anyone who debunks their myths, lol.

vooks:
You are confusing or confused. You are just another version of Frosbel hiding behind cliches and glib. You have in one swoop struck out 'Hebrew' epistles from NT as of less authority than 'Gentile' epistles.

Are you insinuating that the present salvation plan for Jews is different from Gentiles?

And finally, what is the 'heavenly gift' and 'good word of the Lord'

Hebrews 6:4-5 (KJV)
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Let's study at these people closely;
1. They are ENLIGHTENED
2. They have tasted the heavenly gift
3. They WERE made partakers of Holy Spirit...they received the SEAL as you alluded.
4. They have tasted the good word of the Lord
5. They have tasted the powers of the world to come...probably spiritual gifts

How do you claim that these were not Christians? How better are you than a believer who has had all these?

If they had what you think they have, Paul or the writer of Hebrew wouldn't need all of these persuading messages for them, would he?

My broda,
DESTRUCTION OF THE FLESH can only mean destruction of the flesh.
A brother perishing means a brother perishing. Now, after destruction of the flesh, where do you find that flesh? Where do you expect to find a brother that has perished?

This is a totally irrelevant passage to prop your theory.
I beseech you by the mercies of God that you esteem the Word of God above your garbage

shdemidemi:
Upset?



Now, lets use another scripture if it will help matters. A man slept with is father's wife in the church and he got excommunicated. What did Paul say about such person-

1 Cor 5
3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,

4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,

5 [size=28pt]To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus[/size]

Can you see destruction/perish does not necessarily mean 'de-saved'...

^^

One of you has to be right though , carry on let me observe.

Christianity and confusion since AD 100...

vooks:
My broda,
DESTRUCTION OF THE FLESH can only mean destruction of the flesh.
A brother perishing means a brother perishing. Now, after destruction of the flesh, where do you find that flesh? Where do you expect to find a brother that has perished?

This is a totally irrelevant passage to prop your theory.
I beseech you by the mercies of God that you esteem the Word of God above your garbage

Since that isn't clear enough for you,lets take a different route.

What is justification?

vooks:
Suffering on earth is not necessarily a function of sin, else you need to mean that those who suffer most are more sinners and those who suffer the least are less sinners.

Secondly, if consequences of sin are entirely earthly, one may argue that hell is an overkill for sinners who suffer for their sins completely here on earth and then proceed to hell

I know this thing require thinking to understand, but if you think, you will understand.
Suffering on earth is a direct function of sin..and sin can be inherited. remember,Adam and eve sinned and And mankind inherited death as the consequence. But Jesus died and restore back that eternal life Adam and eve lost.
So, a progeny may not commit any sin But suffers the consequence of the sin his ancestor commited. For example, a father who refuses to send his child to school has sinned, the child may suffer the effect later in life.
Hence, we all need the 10 commandments to guide us.
This explain why God told Joshua, this book of the law shall not depart from you, this is the only way you will prosper.
Now all i have just said falls into the category of this physical realm,excluding the death of Jesus i mentioned .
Now, this is what is obtainable in the spiritual realm.
The lake of fire in revelation means purnishment of death(known as the second death) for unbelievers only, not christians, it is a state of lifelessness or condemnation,where the individual cannot resurrect to enjoy the eternal life that those whose names were found in the book of the lamb are enjoying.
how were their names found in the book of the Lamb?
it is because they believe only, thats all.
Eternal life is real
ressurrection of the dead for believers only,is real
Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
We all know what hell is. Hell means grave where the dead (people) are buried.
So,lake of fire is not the same thing as hell.
Hell(grave) is physical and is the same thing as hell fire as mentioned by Jesus in Matthew 5:22
....but whosoever shall say(to his brother ), Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
in otherwords,when you tell your brother fool, he is likely kill you out of anger and you die and go to grave (Hellfire ).this one falls into the category of what happen in this physical life.
In summary, no Christian is entitled to lake of fire by any means, But all christians like all humans dies and go to Hellfire (grave) someday. And he is resurected to eternal life after the judgement(it is appointed once for men to die after that,judgement ), which is less than a second ( a period of time that is equivalent to blinking of the eye,in the real sense,the physical death is actually eye blinking, not death )
see 1cor 15: 35 down

You are running away from Reason, can't withstand it. Scriptures are quite clear. Paul says Brothers do perish. Jesus says miracle workers will perish. Many of them. Hebrews says it is IMPOSSIBLE to save believers who have rejected God,a hypothetical statement which is devoid of sense or logic if they can't be 'un-saved' in the first place.

Apostle shdemidemi says, 'that's BS, you can't lose your salvation'
Between Jesus the WORD, Paul His Apostle and Hebrews His Spirit breathed writing on one hand, and a negro who knows neither the scriptures nor the power of God,and who thinks prayers are mere psychological therapeutic exercises, it is a walk in the park discerning garbage

shdemidemi:
Since that isn't clear enough for you,lets take a different route.

What is justification?

Could you be kind enough to explain to me who are these 'many'

Matthew 7:21 (ESV)
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

They effectively wrought miracles in the name of Jesus and here they are cast to hell.

Thanks

paxonel:
I know this thing require thinking to understand, but if you think, you will understand.
Suffering on earth is a direct function of sin..and sin can be inherited. remember,Adam and eve sinned and And mankind inherited death as the consequence. But Jesus died and restore back that eternal life Adam and eve lost.
So, a progeny may not commit any sin But suffers the consequence of the sin his ancestor commited. For example, a father who refuses to send his child to school has sinned, the child may suffer the effect later in life.
Hence, we all need the 10 commandments to guide us.
This explain why God told Joshua, this book of the law shall not depart from you, this is the only way you will prosper.
Now all i have just said falls into the category of this physical realm,excluding the death of Jesus i mentioned .
Now, this is what is obtainable in the spiritual realm.
The lake of fire in revelation means purnishment of death(known as the second death) for unbelievers only, not christians, it is a state of lifelessness or condemnation,where the individual cannot resurrect to enjoy the eternal life that those whose names were found in the book of the lamb are enjoying.
how were their names found in the book of the Lamb?
it is because they believe only, thats all.
Eternal life is real
ressurrection of the dead for believers only,is real
Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
We all know what hell is. Hell means grave where the dead (people) are buried.
So,lake of fire is not the same thing as hell.
Hell(grave) is physical and is the same thing as hell fire as mentioned by Jesus in Matthew 5:22
....but whosoever shall say(to his brother ), Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
in otherwords,when you tell your brother fool, he is likely kill you out of anger and you die and go to grave (Hellfire ).this one falls into the category of what happen in this physical life.
In summary, no Christian is entitled to lake of fire by any means, But all christians like all humans dies and go to Hellfire (grave) someday. And he is resurected to eternal life after the judgement(it is appointed once for men to die after that,judgement ), which is less than a second ( a period of time that is equivalent to blinking of the eye,in the real sense,the physical death is actually eye blinking, not death )
see 1cor 15: 35 down

frosbel:
^^

One of you has to be right though , carry on let me observe.

Christianity and confusion since AD 100...

You can run but you can't hide, I'm waiting for your answer.

vooks:
You are running away from Reason, can't withstand it. Scriptures are quite clear. Paul says Brothers do perish. Jesus says miracle workers will perish. Many of them. Hebrews says it is IMPOSSIBLE to save believers who have rejected God,a hypothetical statement which is devoid of sense or logic if they can't be 'un-saved' in the first place.

Apostle shdemidemi says, 'that's BS, you can't lose your salvation'
Between Jesus the WORD, Paul His Apostle and Hebrews His Spirit breathed writing on one hand, and a negro who knows neither the scriptures nor the power of God,and who thinks prayers are mere psychological therapeutic exercises, it is a walk in the park discerning garbage

Seem you can't endure a civil debate my friend.

Start again by defining 'justification'.

Alwaystrue:
Happy New Year guys.
@OP, ah I saw my name and thought to comment though it has been done justice to already. @Bidam, @Candour @Ayoku's comments seem to cover it all.



I think I particularly like @Ayoku's comment here and more or less sums it all up.
I believe unbelief starts when we start overlooking and 'It doesn't mean'-ing what Jesus says or how He acts in the belief that whatever we do we are covered since we have righteosness in us.
As was said, sinning as falling and rising is different from falling and wallowing and even becoming indifferent about it.

happy new yr ma./good to see u.!been looking for u o.-i will send u a mail

vooks:
Could you be kind enough to explain to me who are these 'many'

Matthew 7:21 (ESV)
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

They effectively wrought miracles in the name of Jesus and here they are cast to hell.

Thanks

Hmmmm!
Not all who said to me lord lord will enter into the kingdom of heaven.
For you to understand this, let me explain something about the kingdom of God .
Before Christ was crucified ( before the kingdom of heaven was established on earth, many disciples followed Christ and called him lord lord in those days, just to attend the kingdom which was about to be established at that time,which is Christianity. But few of the disciples were able to hold their believe firm until christ was crucified, infact, all of them ran away, even Peter who thought his faith in Christ was strong even denied Christ.
At the end when Jesus was finally crucified, when the kingdom was established, out of the 5000 disciples who eat 5 loaves and 2 fishes,only about 120 disciples started the christianty, which is the kingdom of God,on the day of pentecost, act 1:15.
Hence, few disciples who called him lord lord ended up entering Christianity.
Thats why he told them, strive to enter the gate, many will try to enter but few will gain entry.
Hence. The kingdom of God suffereth violence and the violent taketh it by force.
And on that day, (the day of his resurrection ) many will say, we cast out demons,we heal the sick.
You know, Jesus actually gave his disciples power to cast out demons and heal the sick even when they were not yet christians.
But Jesus told them, i know you not, meaning, they ran away when he was about to be crucified even after they saw the miracles.
Those disciples (120 of them ) were those that actually did the will of the father because they held their believe till the end, and because they saw him appear to them after the resurrection.
Today, we christians are already in that kingdom, we don't need to suffer what the disciples suffered in the wilderness when Christianity was about to be established 2000 years ago. We are far better than they.
The list person in Christianity is far better than John the Baptist and Judas Iscariot who died before Christianity was established, and we are better than all the prophets of old testament or Judaism. So, when i see pastors reading old testament for promises, they are just belittling themselves.
And they made people still waiting for rapture, meanwhile, the kingdom of heaven is already inside us in our spirit.
You know,God lives eternally, man lost his eternal life as a result of sin. Jesus restored that eternal life to man by bringing his kingdom down on earth the moment he was crucified.
as many of us that believe are part of that kingdom on earth. That kingdom is christianity.(If you understand Jesus parables when he will say, the kingdom of heaven is like unto...
Jesus is the founder of Christianity,just like Mohammed founded islam.
Christianity started after Christ was crucified, that means, before the crucifixion, it was Judaism, another religion entirely, but the same bible.
God has rejected Judaism(old covenant) and lifted Christianity ( the new covenant which is kingdom of heaven) for salvation.
Hence Christianity is now our faith. Without Christianity our faith it is impossible to please God.

.

Wow its really another learning experience. I'm learning a lot from everyone. The Lord our fortress bless you all.

shdemidemi:
1)Could you please help with your definition of justification.

2)Is it in me to believe or is it by my power that I come to believe/have faith?

I had this opinion before also; that salvation cannot be lost. If you study my earlier posts when I first joined NL newly; I even argued vehemently for the "Once saved Always saved" doctrine.

But too many scriptures started starring me in the face that said otherwise. And I just couldn't continue to pretend I didn't see them and flip the page.

Romans 11v21-22 -For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest He also spare not thee.

Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee goodness, if thou continue in His goodness: otherwise THOU ALSO SHALT BE CUT OFF.

This was Paul writing to the Roman church, making it clear that being cut off from Christ is a clear and present danger -if they don't continue in the faith.

Jesus also spoke to the Church in Sardis:

Revelation 3v5 -He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I WILL NOT BLOT OUT HIS NAME OUT OF THE BOOK OF LIFE, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before His angels.

Jesus doesn't make threats, He says the truth as it is. If names cannot be blotted out of the book of life, He will not say that it can for any reason.

The bible also prophesied about the "FALLING AWAY" that will come at the end of the age.

2Thessalonians 2v3 -Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a FALLING AWAY FIRST, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.

It is clear, that an unbeliever cannot "fall away", because they were never standing -only a believer can fall.

2Cor 1v24 -Not for that we have dominion over your faith, but are helpers of your joy: FOR BY FAITH YE STAND.

Romans 8v20 -Well because of unbelief they were broken off, AND THOU STANDEST BY FAITH. Be not highminded but fear.

Only someone who has faith was ever standing. Only someone who once had faith can "fall away".

All this rise of atheism and return to lack of faith in Christ by former christians is part of the fulfilment of that "Falling Away" prophecy of the end time.

These scriptures and a few others like then, shows that yes; even though faith is truly a gift -according to:

Ephesians 2v8 -For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that (faith) not of yourselves: IT IS THE GIFT OF GOD:

But like all gifts; the gift of faith can be received or rejected or returned.

Someone can be:

A Believer -Someone who receives the gift of faith in Christ.

An unbeliever -One who rejects the gift of faith in Christ.

A Disbeliever -One who returns the gift of faith in Christ.

Been cut off from Christ after one was once joined to Him; and having one's name blotted out of the book of life after it was once written therein are possible according to scripture. Someone that was once standing by faith in Christ can "Fall Away" in the great deception.

Salvation can be lost, the gift of faith can be returned. Someone can become a disbeliever in Christ. That's why Paul said in:

1Timothy 4v7 -I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I HAVE KEPT THE FAITH.

Faith can be kept, and it can be lost -like a gift returned.

So while I agree that the human spirit cannot sin in the same context that the soul and body sins like fornication, malice, greed etc. Even so it can still disbelief and lose faith in Christ.

At no point does the bible claim the responsibility to keep believing or stop believing is up to God. God gives the gift of faith and grace. But our spirits maintain the right to receive it, reject it or return it.

More scriptures proof this truth. But this should be ok for now.

christemmbassey:
bros go back and study Rm7, its evident that you only read dat portion. Study, Study and study. BTW, happy new yr, bro.

Rom7:19 For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I do.

St. Paul said he sinned.

What else is there to study?

@BabaGnoni, are you with us?

shdemidemi:
1. Were the people in the passage justified? Yes or no. No! No because the price for justification had not been paid at this time.

James 2:21 Was not our ancestor Abraham justified by works when he offered his son Isaac on the altar?

Abraham was justified thousands of years before Jesus came.

So your answer is false. Those people were justified, yet committed sin and went to hell.

BabaGnoni, vooks...what do you say to the above?

shdemidemi:
Did the early church in Corinth commit the act of sin? Yes or No

Did Paul call them Carnal? Yes or No

Did Paul call them saints because of their sanctification and justification by God through Christ? Yes or No

Yes to all the questions.

That makes me correct. The early Church believed and was justified, yet it sinned and was called carnal.

Jesus gave 72 disciples power over demons and diseases and sent them out two by two in Luke 10 . You are claiming that the MANY refer to these.

Not all of them had died by the time Jesus died so you are being disingenuous in attempting to restrict the 'many' to a group of under 72 in count.

Let's try again; who are these MANY people who successfully invoked the name of Jesus in casting out demons,healing and are sent to hell?

paxonel:
Hmmmm!
Not all who said to me lord lord will enter into the kingdom of heaven.
For you to understand this, let me explain something about the kingdom of God .
Before Christ was crucified ( before the kingdom of heaven was established on earth, many disciples followed Christ and called him lord lord in those days, just to attend the kingdom which was about to be established at that time,which is Christianity. But few of the disciples were able to hold their believe firm until christ was crucified, infact, all of them ran away, even Peter who thought his faith in Christ was strong even denied Christ.
At the end when Jesus was finally crucified, when the kingdom was established, out of the 5000 disciples who eat 5 loaves and 2 fishes,only about 120 disciples started the christianty, which is the kingdom of God,on the day of pentecost, act 1:15.
Hence, few disciples who called him lord lord ended up entering Christianity.
Thats why he told them, strive to enter the gate, many will try to enter but few will gain entry.
Hence. The kingdom of God suffereth violence and the violent taketh it by force.
And on that day, (the day of his resurrection ) many will say, we cast out demons,we heal the sick.
You know, Jesus actually gave his disciples power to cast out demons and heal the sick even when they were not yet christians.
But Jesus told them, i know you not, meaning, they ran away when he was about to be crucified even after they saw the miracles.
Those disciples (120 of them ) were those that actually did the will of the father because they held their believe till the end, and because they saw him appear to them after the resurrection.
Today, we christians are already in that kingdom, we don't need to suffer what the disciples suffered in the wilderness when Christianity was about to be established 2000 years ago. We are far better than they.
The list person in Christianity is far better than John the Baptist and Judas Iscariot who died before Christianity was established, and we are better than all the prophets of old testament or Judaism. So, when i see pastors reading old testament for promises, they are just belittling themselves.
And they made people still waiting for rapture, meanwhile, the kingdom of heaven is already inside us in our spirit.
You know,God lives eternally, man lost his eternal life as a result of sin. Jesus restored that eternal life to man by bringing his kingdom down on earth the moment he was crucified.
as many of us that believe are part of that kingdom on earth. That kingdom is christianity.(If you understand Jesus parables when he will say, the kingdom of heaven is like unto...
Jesus is the founder of Christianity,just like Mohammed founded islam.
Christianity started after Christ was crucified, that means, before the crucifixion, it was Judaism, another religion entirely, but the same bible.
God has rejected Judaism(old covenant) and lifted Christianity ( the new covenant which is kingdom of heaven) for salvation.
Hence Christianity is now our faith. Without Christianity our faith it is impossible to please God.

.

How do we have a debate with somebody who thinks Hebrews and Peter are not scriptures?

How do you reason with somebody who thinks a 'brother perishing' means him getting lost in Afi River Forest?

You are another shade of Frosbel with tons of garbage between you and the Truth

shdemidemi:
Seem you can't endure a civil debate my friend.

Start again by defining 'justification'.

Who told shdemidemi those miracle workers had not been justified

This is circular reasoning. Goes like this;
1. I THINK/IMAGINE a justified christian can't be cast to hell
2. All people being cast to hell can't possibly be justified Christians

CONCLUSION
Therefore, the miracle workers were not justified Christians

This is intellectual dishonesty because you are trying to establish whether after justification a believer can sin and go to hell,and here you are starting with the PRESUMPTION that he can't and on that basis denying scriptures showing you that he can without proof!

Many years ago in high school,my biology teacher told me that I should not define something with itself.
What is Respiration? Respiration is mmm.....errrr Respiration!
That's BS

italo:
James 2:21 Was not our ancestor Abraham justified by works when he offered his son Isaac on the altar?

Abraham was justified thousands of years before Jesus came.

So your answer is false. Those people were justified, yet committed sin and went to hell.

BabaGnoni, vooks...what do you say to the above?

Yes to all the questions.

That makes me correct. The early Church believed and was justified, yet it sinned and was called carnal.

vooks:
My broda,
When you look at that scripture italo has raised, Jesus speaking BEFORE his death and resurrection was talking future. How could the subjects of that passage invoke the name of Jesus to perform miracles? I thought the name of Jesus was invoked AFTER Pentecost.

Supposing hypothetically the name of Jesus was used BEFORE his ascension, How many disciples did Jesus make? At Pentecost, they were 120. He appeared to about 500 in 1 Cor 15. Let's assume that EVERYONE of these guys invoked the name before the price of Justification had been paid and they perished. Would they really count as MANY?

That passage needs some honest reflection and not brushing. Given these guys could use the name of Jesus EFFECTIVELY, they must have been believers. Otherwise you are left with an awkward situation where unbelievers invoke the name of the Lord they are not submitted to. We saw sons of Sceva attempting this and failing .

What italo the Catholic is raising is serious; under what circumstance can a believer lose his eternal life?
Hard core calvinists will tell you it is IMPOSSIBLE to lose it

Moderates like ayoku777 will tell you that you lose it once you denounce your faith. Theoretically, you can sin and kill everyone in the whole world and still get to heaven because your 'faith' was intact. You can worship devils and offer human sacrifices and still get to heaven because your faith is still there. I note he is careful to mark the point of no return as 'unbelief' something he can't bother define. What is UNBELIEF?

Another clever theory injected is the REWARDS theory. It states that the works and your conduct AFTER coming to Christ earns you a bigger reward in eternity not eternity itself. The lesser you do the lesser the reward/crown. Sin in other words robs you of your reward but not eternity. THis is a softer version of the Hard core calvinism since here you can't lose your eternity as well

There is a fine line between ASSURANCE of salvation and license to sin

Believers who don't find it remotely revolting for men to spend eternity in hell for rejecting Christ are extremely bothered by by the thought of a born again guy perishing in hell. What's the fear of perishing? DOn't you have the Word and the Holy Spirit in you? If that is not sufficient to save you, then nothing will

The Bible is awash with passages that prove that one can sin and go to hell after being justified. Here are just a few.

Rom. 11:20-23 – Paul teaches that the Jews (the natural branches) were broken off by lack of faith (v.20), but says that the Romans stand fast through faith (v. 21). So the Romans are justified. However, Paul then says that the Romans can also be cut off if they don’t persevere in faith and kindness (v. 22-23). Hence, those justified before God can fall away from the faith and lose their salvation (be “cut off”). Paul also says that those who are cut off can be grafted back in if they do not persist in their unbelief, for God has the power to graft them in again (v.23).

@shdemidemi, BabaGnoni, paxonel, fortresofchrist...Will justified people who are cut off from God make heaven?

1 Cor. 9:24-27 – Paul says that all the runners compete, but only one wins the prize. Paul recognizes that if he doesn’t train himself properly in perseverance, he too can become “disqualified.” The word "disqualified" comes from the Greek word "adokimos" which literally means cut off from Christ, or reprobate. When “adokimos” is used in the Scriptures, it always refers to those who are to be condemned by God. It has nothing to do with going to heaven with less rewards. See, for example, Rom. 1:28; Titus 1:16; 2 Tim. 3:8; Heb. 6:8; 2 Cor. 13:5-7. This proves that Saint Paul thought he could lose his salvation.

1Cor6:8 But you yourselves wrong and defraud—and believers at that. 9 Do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived! Fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, male prostitutes, sodomites, 10 thieves, the greedy, drunkards, revilers, robbers—none of these will inherit the kingdom of God..

@shdemidemi, BabaGnoni...see again, believers committing sin and in danger of not going to heaven.

Hiswordxray:
I told you before you are too carnal. If you don't understand spiritual things just shut up and read.
And as you humble yourself I know you would get to a place where you could understand these things.

@BabaGnoni, I haven't seen you condemn this.

Is it ad hominem only when a Catholic does it?

vooks:

How do we have a debate with somebody who thinks Hebrews and Peter are not scriptures?

How do you reason with somebody who thinks a 'brother perishing' means him getting lost in Afi River Forest?

You are another shade of Frosbel with tons of garbage between you and the Truth

I wish I could help the guy above but how can you help a guy who says that Jesus' gospel is different from Paul's gospel...and that the Jesus on earth is different from the one in heaven now.

His problem is too deep

.

The above is the first thing I said about him when I got on this thread. Then one biased BabaGnoni accused me of ad hominem and not arguing logically. Then i decided to engage him in a reasonable discussion while quoting BabaGnoni all the time, alas...the BabaGnoni has since disappeared into Afi River Forest.