₦airaland Forum

Hiswordxray:
Faith is a word use by many people apart from Christians but if you are asking of the Christian Faith then I would give you this verse
"Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;" (Heb 12:3).
Faith is not something that comes and jump on you. Faith requires your effort because faith is looking (the gaze of the soul).
Faith don't just involves looking but also reacting to what you are looking at. You can't look without reacting, this is why James said "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also." (James 2:26).

James also said something interesting I would like to quote "You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only." (James 2: 24).

5solas:
We are saints by imputation, not by our deeds.
The question that remains is, do we still sin?

BabaGnoni:
If Once Saved, Always Saved is true, one wonders why almost all the books in the NT warns believers against apostasy

5solas:
We will get to this, but let us understand the facts of our salvation.

BabaGnoni:
Exactly, why reverting to the sinner tag then?
Will give you the benefit of the doubt that you missed reading the BOLD especially, in the reproduced below from the excerpt:

- as a matter of fact & truth, if/when saints sin or when their world crumbles, saints can go/come boldly to the throne of our gracious God. There, saints will receive His mercy, and will find assistance and grace to help saints when saints need it most (i.e. Hebrews 4:15-16)

5solas:
*Sighs*

5solas:
*Sighs*
You cannot get round it, one who sins is a sinner.

Goshen360:
Justification is indeed a deep subject, an Apostolic doctrine as it is. It is part of the finished works of Christ but I will save time and go straight to your queries:

How can a just God declare a sinner righteous even with their sins because they are in Christ Lord our fortress and some still say they have sin in their lives?

Simple because, in Christ, we have no righteousness of our own but Christ has become our righteousness. God doesn't see us via our works or faults, but God sees us via the righteousness of Christ. Christ's experience becomes our experience just like If I place money inside an envelop and mail to you as a gift. The experience\movement of the envelop becomes the experience\movement of the money inside the envelop. Such is ours, IN Christ - He is our righteousness and our justification.

Being a sinner is by nature not by our works. We are not a sinner because we sinned but because we inherit the sin nature by Adam. So also, we are not righteous because we did something right, but because Christ became for us, righteousness and made us righteous.

King James Bible
For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Romans 5:19

God doesn't see sin in the lives of those who he had declared righteous and those he had justified in Christ. Abraham had his faults and errors and missed the mark (sinned) but never was Abraham's sin recorded but instead, we was described as a perfect person. This is the works of Christ's finished works of Justification hidden in Abraham for believers. Heaven does not record the sins of believers because of Christ's righteousness\justifications, just like it never happened. God removed man from the equation and put Christ alone in the redemption!!!

Another issue is how can a sinner be declared guiltless without works?

Because your works didn't make God see you as righteous and declared you justified in the first place - it is because you're in Christ. So also, your works can't help God to declare you righteous.

King James Bible
For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Romans 5:19

So my question is is one who is justified and declared righteous still a sinner?

No, one who is justified and declared righteous is not a sinner. Like a said, being a sinner is by nature, not because one did something wrong, just like being a male\female is by nature. The sin nature most time is what the Apostle dealt with but people misinterpreted as the act of sin and that's why they kept asking...."shall we continue in sin (act) that Grace may abound". Listen to the reply: How shall we who are dead to sin (nature) live therein in it? A dead man is no longer alive to an act...he's dead.

Does the bible teaches that one can be righteous, justified and at the same time be sinner after being declared justified?

No, the bible doesn't call or teach that one who is righteous or declared justified (in Christ) is still a sinner. Just as the Apostle taught the sin nature (outside of Christ via Adam), he also taught righteousness and justification as a nature\identity in Christ. You can't be a male and at the same time a female. You're either one but can't be both at the same time. You were once a sinner but now, righteous or the righteousness of God in Christ. Listen to this verse and pay attention to the tenses:

New International Version
Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
1 Corinthians 6:9-11

Goshen360:
Justification is indeed a deep subject, an Apostolic doctrine as it is. It is part of the finished works of Christ but I will save time and go straight to your queries:

How can a just God declare a sinner righteous even with their sins because they are in Christ Lord our fortress and some still say they have sin in their lives?

Simple because, in Christ, we have no righteousness of our own but Christ has become our righteousness. God doesn't see us via our works or faults, but God sees us via the righteousness of Christ. Christ's experience becomes our experience just like If I place money inside an envelop and mail to you as a gift. The experience\movement of the envelop becomes the experience\movement of the money inside the envelop. Such is ours, IN Christ - He is our righteousness and our justification.

Being a sinner is by nature not by our works. We are not a sinner because we sinned but because we inherit the sin nature by Adam. So also, we are not righteous because we did something right, but because Christ became for us, righteousness and made us righteous.

King James Bible
For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Romans 5:19

God doesn't see sin in the lives of those who he had declared righteous and those he had justified in Christ. Abraham had his faults and errors and missed the mark (sinned) but never was Abraham's sin recorded but instead, we was described as a perfect person. This is the works of Christ's finished works of Justification hidden in Abraham for believers. Heaven does not record the sins of believers because of Christ's righteousness\justifications, just like it never happened. God removed man from the equation and put Christ alone in the redemption!!!

Another issue is how can a sinner be declared guiltless without works?

Because your works didn't make God see you as righteous and declared you justified in the first place - it is because you're in Christ. So also, your works can't help God to declare you righteous.

King James Bible
For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Romans 5:19

So my question is is one who is justified and declared righteous still a sinner?

ayoku777:
That is not necessarily true. An unbeliever can do good works and still be unrighteous by divine judgment. And a born again christian can sin and still be righteous by imputation.

Psalm 51v5 -Behold I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

He didn't mean his mother was an adulterer or had him outside matrimony; he meant he was in iniquity from the very moment he took shape in the womb, and that he was a sinner from conception.

That's remarkable! How can someone be a sinner ever before he was born, ever before he has had a chance to do anything -good or evil?

It is because sin is first and foremost BEING IN THE IMAGE OF THE FIRST ADAM. Any man in the image of the first Adam is a SINNER, even if he hasn't committed any sinful act.

Let me show you another scripture to buttress that truth.

Psalm 58v3 -The wicked are estranged FROM THE WOMB they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

Can you see this too. To be estranged means to be foreign to, or to be at odds with.

How can someone that is still in the womb be called wicked and estranged from God? When he hasn't done anything good or evil? It is because sin is fundamentally the image of the first Adam; and anyone in that image is estranged -even before evil works follow.

So a sinner is anyone born of a woman in the image of the first Adam -even if he still does some good or righteous acts.

Now, flipping it right-side up, this same principle applies with the new creation too. A righteous person is someone who is born of God in the image of the last Adam through faith in Christ -even if he still sins.

The consequence of sin in the life of a believer is not the loss of his salvation or imputed righteousness, unless the carnality degenerates into unbelief (loss of faith in Christ).

Yes, carnality can degenerate into lukewarmness, lukewarmness into spiritual indifference, and indifference into unbelief. But until unbelief, he is still saved and righteous by imputation.

Hiswordxray:
I told you before you are too carnal. If you don't understand spiritual things just shut up and read.
And as you humble yourself I know you would get to a place where you could understand these things.

shdemidemi:
That is how big the price paid for sin is, heaven gave its very best.... the demand of sin was entirely paid for.

The wage of sin is death. Sin was fully paid for by the death of the purest and greatest of all.

Ubenedictus:
bottomline, God is blind to the sins of the justified because his sin are now hidden in Christ!

That is some pretty funny righteousness! Sin strongly! Faith has already saved you.

That is some conc calvinism.

ayoku777:
No this is also wrong. This is the opposite extreme of the doctrine. We have extreme legalism and extreme liberalism. This is extreme liberalism.

One, a christian can sin.

1John 5v16 -If any man SEE HIS BROTHER SIN A SIN which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life....

1Cor 5v1 -It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the heathen, that one should have his father's wife.

And two; God's eyes are not close to the sins and carnalities of His children, believers in Christ Jesus.

Jesus saw and rebuked sternly the sins of the seven churches in Revelation.

Rev 2v5 -Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and I will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

He saw their sins, rebuked them for it, and demanded repentance. And promised chastisements if they don't repent.

Jesus repeated this with about 5 of the 7 churches.

We should not assume he doesn't see our fornication, malice, lies and greed etc. They grieve His Holy Spirit in us.

Rev 2v14-16 -But I have a few things against thee, because there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumbling block before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols and to commit fornication.

So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate.

Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and I will fight against thee with the sword of my mouth.

See? Jesus sees our sins, our carnalities and our false doctrines. He hates them and he rebukes them. He demands repentance for them; and he chastises refusal to repent of them.

shdemidemi:
You suddenly resort to dumb responses when you can't answer a question logically.

No question can come as easy as this- Was Paul's message offensive to the Jews and their traditions?

Key Words in Hebrews 6 v 4 -

'once enlightened'

tasted

heavenly gift

partakers

Are you happy that we define these words in their pertinent context.

Hiswordxray:
Faith is a word use by many people apart from Christians but if you are asking of the Christian Faith then I would give you this verse
"Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;" (Heb 12:3).
Faith is not something that comes and jump on you. Faith requires your effort because faith is looking (the gaze of the soul).
Faith don't just involves looking but also reacting to what you are looking at. You can't look without reacting, this is why James said "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also." (James 2:26).

James also said something interesting I would like to quote "You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only." (James 2: 24).

ayoku777:
This is how people make conclusions without reading through the entire thread. Don't say bottomline without reading to the bottom line.

I don't do Calvinism or any of those tags. And if you have continued reading, you would have seen where I made the lower post.

I corrected someone who said God doesn't see our sins.

vooks:
Silly and irrelevant questions, I don't dignify them by answering. You are very lucky I did


Define them in any way that suits you

5solas:
Faith is God-given. In those that are saved, works are the products of that justifying faith and are the effects of salvation not by any iota the cause.

vooks:
I respectfully differ for Pauline epistles can't save NOBODY on their own.

shdemidemi:
What else does Pauline epistle need from without for salvation to be achieved?

Paul taught Grace and he says by this gospel of Grace are ye saved.
Romans 10
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.


What do I need outside of this?

Who else explained this principle of salvation plainly as this?

BabaGnoni:
May I chip in also that, not keeping the faith, loosing faith in the word of God in Eden, was the first test man failed in.

shdemidemi:
Never knew people get too big to answer questions in a tete-a-tete. Lucky me, I got answers from vooks. I'm fulfilled

Grow up son!!!

vooks:
The gospels my friend. Why would I believe just because Paul said so? What or who was Jesus

Please stop mutilating scriptures and picking what suits your fancy

vooks:
I will buy you a dozen boxes of Kleenex since the sight of of a middleaged man crying is disgusting

Define those terms as you wish and answer my question please.

How does knowledge of the audience of Hebrews affect your comprehension of Hebrews 6:4-5

That's a straw man; you are furnished with evidence of a justified shdemidemi perishing and you shout that the audience is Jewish!

So what? You have been busy googling all commentaries and sites that are trying to run away from the solid Revelation of Heb 6 namely believers can fall away and perish.

It is amazing the depths fickle brains will sink to escape the Sword of the Spirit

Are Jews/Hebrews unworthy of hearing the 'true 'gospel of eternal security?

Why should they ALONE be threatened with loss of salvation?

Did Holy Spirit 'forget' to inspire apostles who ministered to Jews with the same formula for salvation as He inspired and taught Paul?

Cc BabaGnoni,ayoku777

shdemidemi:
Folks get blinded by this sort of statement a lot, so you ain't alone. They say, after all Paul is a man like me so why should he be an authority? I will rather work with what Jesus said while walking on earth.

Nothing can be farther from the truth. Jesus made it known that it was expedient that he leaves that the Spirit of truth may come. That Spirit is who Paul represented. He was a bond servant to that Spirit and He was sold out to the Spirit to speak His mind.

What was the office of Jesus when He walked the phase of the earth-
Romans 15
8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:

It is either we take scripture or take the other option of rejecting it, what we cannot do is impose our ideas on it or alternate it.

vooks:
Why would I believe just because Paul said so?

vooks:
Garbage.
Do you have dyslexia?

Romans 15:8-12 King James Version (KJV)

8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:

9 And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name.

10 And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people.

11 And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people.

12 And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.

italo:
I warned you about that guy.

When you show him where Jesus said believers are going to hell, he says that was before Jesus died so those believers were not justified.

When you show him that Abraham was justified thousands of years before Jesus died, he switches and says those working miracles in Jesus' name were not believers.

When you show him where the book of Hebrews, Romans, Corinthians show Christians can go to hell (after Jesus died), he says the books were written to Jews.

What amazes me is how BabaGnone pretends he doesn't see the dubious excuses just because they are defending the same position.

You're arguing with a man who believes there are two gospels and two Jesuses.

My advice is you ignore that one and discuss with the rest.

Arguing with him is like shouting back at an alarm system gone off.

You should either ignore it or put it off.

italo:
I warned you about that guy.

When you show him where Jesus said believers are going to hell, he says that was before Jesus died so those believers were not justified.

When you show him that Abraham was justified thousands of years before Jesus died, he switches and says those working miracles in Jesus' name were not believers.

When you show him where the book of Hebrews, Romans, Corinthians show Christians can go to hell (after Jesus died), he says the books were written to Jews.

What amazes me is how BabaGnone pretends he doesn't see the dubious excuses just because they are defending the same position.

You're arguing with a man who believes there are two gospels and two Jesuses.

My advice is you ignore that one and discuss with the rest.

Arguing with him is like shouting back at an alarm system gone off.

You should either ignore it or put it off.

vooks:
I don't tire from garbage, I weary them with the Wisdom of God, just like Stephen praise be to Jesus!

Here is the point;
1. We have ONE message of salvation for BOTH Jews and Gentiles. This means regardless of whether an epistle was written to Igbos,Satanists,M0rons or Jews, the message is not distorted

2. Following 1.above, the ethnicity of the audience of an epistle is irrelevant in discerning the truth no more different than wondering whether Paul was right/left-handed

3. Following 2.,rejecting or watering down the message of an epistle on the basis of the ethnicity of its original audience is lunacy on stilts

shdemidemi:
Let's don't lose sight of why I said you should say what faith means to you- you said 'justification by faith' is dependent on a subjective faith(paraphrased)

Jesus once said 'o Ye of little faith' (more in tune with your definition of faith)

Is the above use of faith the same as The way faith should be interpreted here - 'the just shall live by faith'?

shdemidemi:
If you don't believe because Paul said so, you must believe because the bible say so. Except, of-course you like to go the way of Frosbel by arguing the inerrancy of the entire book.