AlBaqir:


Very unfortunate, man. Your accusations know no bounds. You must have been a JJC on this forum to note that Albaqir is a Shii. And beside, "Albaqir being insultive?" Ask your men, MrOlai, abuamam, et al, we've debated a lot on Shiism so I found it amusing when you laid that amateur claim. Lastly, when you say I couldn't refute you, please note, I personally do not engage in a "win-loss dialogue". Usually a person with big mouth do consider himself to have won a debate. Quran gave a guideline for dialogue {Surah an-Nahl:125}. I always try my best to adhere to it. Check my record on NL. The reason why I skipped many of your challenges is simply to avoid derailment of this thread. You guys, MrOlai, love to derail thread. I have already cited like 3 different threads that addressed your challenges but you ignore all of them and now claiming winner oh oh winner.

This thread is so beautiful that what we explore is Quran not Shia. Funny enough you cannot even stomach the opposite view of Sunni scholars that supported the second view. That is not academic. I see your resort ["so you are even a shee'a"] as a fast route of escape. MrOlai, I descibe you with hyena descriptions. He feeds on carcass left by the lions.

Anyway, Salam alaykum and cheers, men.

"...many go astray by it (Quran) and many are lead aright by it. No one go astray except Fasiqun"

Damn!! You just killed it bro
Will love to know you beta in sha ALLAH

@sino, I understand what you passing to us. I admire it actually. But here is the problem with the verse you quoted as understood by many of us today.

"....So as for those in whose hearts there is a deviation (from the truth) they follow that which is not entirely clear thereof, seeking Al-Fitnah (polytheism and trials, etc.), and seeking for its hidden meanings, but none knows its hidden meanings save Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in it; the whole of it (clear and unclear Verses) are from our Lord." And none receive admonition except men of understanding. (Tafsir At-Tabari). (Quran 3 vs 7)

When Quran was revealed, it was revealed without punctuation marks. There have been debates on this subject overtime. Punctuation marks were invented by human. So the worst FULL STOP ever was placed here:

and seeking for its hidden meanings, but none knows its hidden meanings save Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say:

It should have been 'none knows its hidden meanings except Allah and men who are firmly grounded in knowledge....'

Do we think for one second that Nabi Muhammad doesnt know everything in the Quran?. He knows front and back. Wherever Quran portrays the prophet having limited knowledge of things is only meant for out of respect for our human intellect. I do not believe for one second that a man(SAW) sent with this powerful message doesnt know everything with message he was sent. Thats literal understanding.

#Justsaying... I know a Sheik once brought this point i raised here.

Shaykh Suduq quotes Salman Farsi in his book Tawhid . Salman said,

One of the answers of Imam Ali to Jailiq was - The angels carry the Arsh and it is not as you deem about it materially but is a creation of God . God is its owner and uses it.

Kafi says the man had asked, Is God carrying the heavens or the Arsh is carrying God?

The Imam answered,

God is the creator and sustainer of the heavens and earth and all that exist between them. He has told us about this in His own words.


The man then said , I ask about the words, " And the angels will be on its sides, and eight angels on that Day will bear the Throne of your Lord above them,” when you say that God sustains the heavens and the earth. The Imam replied,

God has created the Arsh from four Nur or lights.

* One is red from which everything red has been created,

* the second is green from which all things green have been created,

* the third is yellow from which all things yellow have been created and

* the fourth is white through which all things white have been created

*By Arsh we mean that knowledge that God has bestowed upon the carriers.

* It is the light of His omnipotence that is lit in the hearts of the believers and this is why the ignorant consider them to be enemies.

* It is because of this light that every creation on this earth and the heavens search for a pathway that leads to Him.

* They have created different ideologies and religions in search of this path.

* And all that exists is sustained through the light of His omnipotence.

* They do not have the power over harm and benefit and

* they have no power over life and death.

* God has prevented the heavens and the earth from disintegrating by encompassing them.

* He is the light and life of everything.

The man then said, " Please tell me where God is.” The Imam answered,

He is here, there, above and below. He is with us and away from us, as He has said Himself in verse 7 of Surah Mujadilah, “ There is no secret counsel of three and He is the fourth, nor five but He is their sixth. Not of less than that or more but He is with them.” In verse 7 of Surah Ta Ha , “ He knows the secret and that which is yet more hidden.” In verse 255 of Surah Baqarah He says, ‘ He knows what happens to them in this world and what will happen to them in the hereafter.”

* His Kursi or control extends over all the heavens and the earth and all that exists between them, but He never tires.

* He is exalted and almighty and in view of this we can say that the carriers of the Arsh are those learned Ulama on whom He has bestowed His knowledge.

* Nothing is beyond the control of these four lights (Nur).

* This is the light He had bestowed on His dear ones and had showed them to the Prophet Ibrahim. He says, “ In this, We showed Ibrahim the Light of both the heavens and the earth, so that He becomes one who has certitude.”

* How can the carriers in heaven carry God when they exist because of the life and Nur He has bestowed in their hearts.

Allamah Hussein Tabatabai writes:

When the man asked to know if the Arsh carried God, when God carries the entire creation; what he had understood was that “Hamal” meant a load of one body carried by another. The Imam explained that what it actually meant was the existence of things through God, but this existence was not an independent one, for God sustains them and they do not sustain Him.

When the man heard the reply about the 8 angels and the throne, which meant that the sustenance of the creation is based on God and He has no partners - but this is not compatible with the verse - so the Imam explained it through knowledge, and the meaning of Arsh here is knowledge.

Since there is a contradiction in both these explanations seemingly, so the Imam refashioned his answer; Knowledge does not mean the normal connotation that comes to the mind. The people understand knowledge for that they can attain it. Here it means the light, greatness and power of God that has been bestowed upon these carriers. The load is both for God and those others upon whom He has bestowed the knowledge because He is the owner of our deeds who has given us the ownership of that knowledge.

All things therefore exist because of the light, the greatness and the power of God. This is the Arsh that encircles us and this light means the total ownership of God. God is the sustainer of this light and is also the sustainer of those on whom this light has been bestowed together with the light itself.

In the words “ He rose over the Throne", Istawa means the ownership and control of God and in the “ carriers of Arsh” it means knowledge and they both are connected to the station from which all things have been created and manifested. In other words, this is the station of knowledge and from, emanate all the systems of control and this is from where all creations get their existence.


When the Imam said, “ It is the power of this Nur that enlightens the heart”, he meant that it not only guides the true believers towards welfare and to God, but it is also regarded as the fountainhead for the destruction of the enemies of God and the ignorant ones. This is the station from which emanates the general system of the universe under which all creations exist whether they exist as the learned or as the ignorant. And the words of the Imam, “ the hearts are enlightened by the light and glory”, refers to the awakening that guides the true believers towards God, is the fountainhead, and it is from here that the destruction of the disbelievers emanate.
It is from here that the system of sustenance for all the universe is issued for all creation to exist whether they be enlightened or ignorant.


The Imam said that the life of everything is the responsibility of God and each creation has a life and a light.

In a nutshell we can say, the entity of God is the sole entity from which every living creation gets its life and existence. It is He who plans and executes everything. None of those who exist do so of their own accord and power for they all exist due to God and His power of creation. He is their King, Owner and Lord and it is His deed that gives birth to them.

When the Imam said, "He is here, there, and above and below, he means that everything exists due to Him. He is their protector and there is no place where He does not exist. It is not possible that He is here but not there. When we say that He is here or with someone it does not mean that He is not in another place with another person. It means that He is ever present everywhere. The different directions are mentioned to denote that He is everywhere.

Indeed "ALLAH is closer to us than our jugular vein"
This verse suffices our point that Allah is not sought of a pHySiCAL bEING....if HE was dat would mean dat HE created HIM SELF or sumtin else created him lo! No muslim will subscribe to dat point indeed
Anoda verse I will like to point out is "you are neva in a state nor do you ever recite a verse of the quran or engage in any other action,without my being INSTANTLY aware of it,not a single atom in the heaven and the earth is hidden from your LORD;what ever exists whether smaller or bigger than an atom is recorded In a clear book(divine knowledge)---quran 10vr61
In the above verse He made mention of His instant awareness of everybody's actions nd even of everything...indeed this is impossible for any physical being it is only logically position if such a being is present everywhere
Finally you cannot expect us to just accept what muhawiyah said about d prophet since muhawiyah's conduct during His life time were questionable
We only take the wordings of such people whom the quran speaks of in this context "verily ur sovereigns are ALLAH,AND the pRoPHET AND those who uphold ritual prayer and give alms while bowing down(in prayer)-quran5:55

Here is a statement from imam ali on the ESSENCE OF GOD
HE is the One,but not in a numerical sense
He is not confined to limits nor counted by numbers
He who points at HIM,admits for Him limitations,and he who admits limitation for Him has numbered Him
He who qualifies Him limits Him.He who limits Him numbers Him.He who numbers Him denies His pre-eternity-----the peak of eloquence
Food for thought-whose saying will you follow ALI's or muhawiyahs'?

Again saying He as an eye,a leg and a mouth refutes the saying "there is non like Unto Him" for - too have an eyes,legs and face
If you den say he is finite why condemn d non muslims for speaking about trinity....since your God and theirs can be counted?

dekatrons:
Here is a statement from imam ali on the ESSENCE OF GOD
HE is the One,but not in a numerical sense
He is not confined to limits nor counted by numbers
He who points at HIM,admits for Him limitations,and he who admits limitation for Him has numbered Him
He who qualifies Him limits Him.He who limits Him numbers Him.He who numbers Him denies His pre-eternity-----the peak of eloquence
Food for thought-whose saying will you follow ALI's or muhawiyahs'?

Again saying He as an eye,a leg and a mouth refutes the saying "there is non like Unto Him" for - too have an eyes,legs and face
If you den say he is finite why condemn d non muslims for speaking about trinity....since your God and theirs can be counted?

Sahih. Nice contributions.

AlBaqir:
@Sino, though your input has been explore already but thanks for your contribution anyway. The funniest part is that you also subscribe to the literalism of Allah having a body, hand, leg and face. And that He sit on the Chair in heavens. My question is what made your Shuyukh interpreted " He is wheresoever you are" (Quran) as non-literal but hell-bent to say "He rose on the throne" is literal?

However, whichever ways according to Quran you choose to describe Allah, the way He describe Himself, Allah want us to have this conclusion:
سُبۡحَٰنَ رَبِّ ٱلسَّمَٰوَٰتِ وَٱلۡأَرۡضِ رَبِّ ٱلۡعَرۡشِ عَمَّا يَصِفُونَ Glory to the Lord of the heavens and the earth, the Lord of power, from what they describe.

Even His Asmaul husna do not do justice to His Essence. Bottom line Allah do not possess LITERAL hand, leg, face, body and does not depend on a chair or throne to sit.

Thanks for your time.

O AlBaqir, how nice of you to help color my submissions to fit your prejudiced opinions…

For the record, perhaps you and maybe others with same view as yours should know what I stated in the previous post is what is obtained in the Qur’an, and what our righteous predecessors held on to. I have not attributed to Allah (SWT) a name or attribute He never used for Himself, or in which the prophet (SAW) never used to describe Him (SWT), nor the righteous predecessors… I refrain from using logic and philosophy to explain these names and attributes, rather, as explained by my “shuyukh”, we take the apparent meaning, as such, we believe Allah (SWT) is above is arsh over the seven heavens is true and He (SWT) is with His creation is also true for He (SWT) says:


“There is nothing like unto Him, and He is the All-Hearing, the All-Seeing.”

The companions and the righteous predecessors had also pointed to the fact that the apparent meaning of Allah (SWT) being with his creation is Ilm (knowledge) and they would not hesitate to state also, He (SWT) is over his arsh above the seven heavens.


In tafsir Tabari, in the ayah 4 of surah al Hadid, he states, “(and he is with you wherever you may be) means, He (SWT) is a witness over you o mankind, anywhere you are, he knows you, he knows your deeds, your ups and downs and your place of rest, He (SWT) is over his arsh (throne) above his seven heavens…” (Tafsir Tabari Quran 56 vs 4)

Same tafsir can also be found for surah Mujadilah verse 7 where Allah (SWT) talks about being with his creation:


“The meaning of “He (SWT) is their fourth” is that he is present with them with his knowledge, and He (SWT) is above His arsh (throne). ….Reported by Adahaak, in the statement “Nowhere is there a secret counsel between three….” Till Allah’s statement “He is with them…” he said: He (SWT) is above his arsh (throne) and His knowledge is with them” i.e He (SWT) is aware and knows of their secret counsel…

The above is the understanding of the salafs, there was no controversy, and my “shuyukh” also said we do not say as the Jahmiyah, and their likes say, that Allah (SWT) is with his creation on earth, for this ascribes an unbefitting attribute to Allah (SWT).
If you do not have a problem with Allah’s statement that He (SWT) sees, hears and speaks, I see no reason why you should have a problem with Allah (SWT) stating in His glorious book about having hands, legs or the face of Allah Jalla jalaluhu. What is fundamental is that, Allah (SWT) says:


“There is nothing like unto Him, and He is the All-Hearing, the All-Seeing.”

It’s quite simple, you should disabuse your mind from anthropomorphic tendencies when you read Allah’s hand in the Qur’an, as well as other attributes, even a layman would not think these attributes have any semblance or likeness to Allah’s creation nor would they worry about the how or modalities of these names and attributes.

You may come up with “sophistry” in explaining away what Allah (SWT) intends with these names and attributes He himself (SWT) used in his book, well, as I stated earlier, Allah (SWT) has stated what is important to us as Muslims, and where our focus should be, hence, I’ll rather encourage Muslims reading this thread to read and reflect on this ayah once more:

Muhsin Khan
It is He Who has sent down to you (Muhammad SAW) the Book (this Quran). In it are Verses that are entirely clear, they are the foundations of the Book [and those are the Verses of Al-Ahkam (commandments, etc.), Al-Fara'id (obligatory duties) and Al-Hudud (legal laws for the punishment of thieves, adulterers, etc.)]; and others not entirely clear. So as for those in whose hearts there is a deviation (from the truth) they follow that which is not entirely clear thereof, seeking Al-Fitnah (polytheism and trials, etc.), and seeking for its hidden meanings, but none knows its hidden meanings save Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in it; the whole of it (clear and unclear Verses) are from our Lord." And none receive admonition except men of understanding. (Tafsir At-Tabari). (Quran 3 vs 7)

And also this quotes by one of our respected righteous predecessor:

Ibn Qudamah Al-Hanbali writes:

“Imam Abu Abdillah Muhammad Ibn Idries Ash-Shafi’ie said: “I believe in Allah and in what revelation tells about Him, in the manner He intended and I believe in the Prophet, sallallahu alayhi wa sallam, in the manner he intended”. [“Al-Irshad Sharh Al-Luma Al-I’tiqaad”, 89].

And you should REMEMBER:

And of the best response to give by a Muslim when asked where Allah (SWT) is, is:



Sahih International

The Most Merciful [who is] above the Throne established.

Muhsin Khan

The Most Beneficent (Allah) Istawa (rose over) the (Mighty) Throne (in a manner that suits His Majesty). (Qur’an 20 vs 5)

You are welcome!

Empiree:
@sino, I understand what you passing to us. I admire it actually. But here is the problem with the verse you quoted as understood by many of us today.

"....So as for those in whose hearts there is a deviation (from the truth) they follow that which is not entirely clear thereof, seeking Al-Fitnah (polytheism and trials, etc.), and seeking for its hidden meanings, but none knows its hidden meanings save Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in it; the whole of it (clear and unclear Verses) are from our Lord." And none receive admonition except men of understanding. (Tafsir At-Tabari). (Quran 3 vs 7)

When Quran was revealed, it was revealed without punctuation marks. There have been debates on this subject overtime. Punctuation marks were invented by human. So the worst FULL STOP ever was placed here:

and seeking for its hidden meanings, but none knows its hidden meanings save Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say:

It should have been 'none knows its hidden meanings except Allah and men who are firmly grounded in knowledge....'

Do we think for one second that Nabi Muhammad doesnt know everything in the Quran?. He knows front and back. Wherever Quran portrays the prophet having limited knowledge of things is only meant for out of respect for our human intellect. I do not believe for one second that a man(SAW) sent with this powerful message doesnt know everything with message he was sent. Thats literal understanding.

#Justsaying... I know a Sheik once brought this point i raised here.

Brother, I do not believe this is right, perhaps if the Qur'an was revealed in English, we might explore such angle you presented. The Arabic is quite clear, you don't even need punctuation to understand. Get the verse in Arabic, you would see what I mean.

@sino,
What exactly is your point brother? That we cannot understand Quran or are not allowed to its in-depth meanings except we take only from the "salaf's" understanding?

From where does this theory emanate? Certainly not from the Quran and the Prophet!
And certainly We have made the Quran easy to understand and remember, but is there anyone who will mind?
{surah Qamar: 15,17,22,32,41,50}

In fact we are not duty-bound to follow any salaf except the Ahl al-Bayt for the prophet was reported to have said:
"O mankind! I have left behind over you that which if you hold fast to it you will NEVER go astray:
the Book of Allah and my Offspring, my Ahl al-Bayt"
NB: This hadith is Mutawattir, so there is no sweat over it. Should you wish to challenge that, be my guest.

In another Sigha of the above hadith, the concluding statement is:
"...the two (Quran and Ahl al-Bayt) shall NEVER separate from each other until they meet me at the pool"

Apart from the Ahl al-Bayt of the Prophet, there is no guarantee on any Salaf as per deviation from the meaning of the Quran, to say the least.

Intellectual Understanding of the Quran
Brother, did I hear you right that we cannot explore Quran intellectually?

Logic, philosophy and science are tools of intellectual capability endowed by Allah for man. This is what distinguished us from other creature and Allah says:
"...and We have honoured the son of Adam".

And if we talk about intellectual exploration of the Quran, what do we mean? Here we talk about an Aql embedded with Iman and ma'arifah not every tom, dick and harry so-called intellectuals.

Interestingly, Quran (vis-a-vis the Prophet) used a lot of logical and philosophical argument to awaken people to the truth. So how strange your Ulama feel disturbed when we explore these verses under discussion (about Arsh, kursi hand, leg, face and body of Allah) through intellectual, logical and philosophical proving when they themselves uses all these to prove wrong the atheist, scientist, and people of the book?

Quran was revealed simplified. And its structure are made known. It contain Clear verses which are made the foundation of the entire book. The other verses is Ambiguous [sura al-Imran:7].

How do we understand the Ambiguous verses? Definitely through the Clear verses for they are the foundation. Any building that deviate from its foundation is Batil (falsehood) and will collapse.

I laughed at length when you said I shouldn't think of you believing in anthropomorphic nature of Allah. Are you confessing some of the ahadith that blatantly claimed this in the prestigious sahih al-Bukhari and Muslim reported by one and only Abu Hurairah, are false?

Empiree:
MashaAllah!. there isn't much difference. Words are only worded differently. That's all. Salafi critics need to shut up honestly. @Fundamentalist, do you have problem with albaqir's creed here?. As Sheik Imran rightly said, that muslims do not defer upon Quran. Holding on to Quran first as the only guarantee kitab without any blemish is paramount. You dont turn to hadith first to derive meaning. But salafi a k a Alhu Hadith cling on to Hadith first which can be very misleading. Their argument is Quran can not be understood alone. That's false for many obvious reasons. One of the reasons is when non-muslims show interest or convinced that islam is the truth, the first thing you hear them say is they read Quran. They dont say they read hadith. This does not mean hadith doesnt exist.

Nothing further from the truth.

Just saw this rubbish, coming back for it when I'm less busy

#AllahisabiveHisthrone

kennyosein:


Inna Lillahi wa inna ilaihi raji'un, I didn't know your condition has gotten to this realm, may Allah rectify your condition.

May Allah safeguard us.

Ameen my brother, I only pity the ignorant who believe the garbage they type in the name of scholarship

MrOlai:
Mu'awiyah as-Sahmi reported: "I had some sheep which I kept between 'Uhud and Juwaniyyah with a slave-girl to look after them. One day, I went out to check on my sheep and discovered that a wolf had devoured one of them. Since I am just a human, (I became angry) and struck the girl.

Later on, I came to the Prophet sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam and reported to him the incident. He terrified me with the gravity of my action. I said, 'Messenger of Allah'! Shall I free her (as an expiation of my sin.) He said 'Call her over'. When I did, he asked her, 'Where is Allah?'She said, 'Above the heavens'. Then he asked her, 'Who am I?' She said, 'The Messenger of Allah sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam'. Thereupon, the Messenger of Allah sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam ordered me, 'Free her. She is a believer.' " [Imam Muslim, Abu Dawud, and others]

The above hadith, according to Shaykh Kahlil al-Harras, is a luminous proof of the Loftiness of Allah, the Exalted. Here is a man who wronged his female slave by striking her, and wanted to expiate his sin by giving her freedom in return. The Prophet sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam chose one particular question, Where is Allah?' Then the slave girl gave him the correct answer, Above the heaven'. The Prophet sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam declared her to be a believer. Does not the above the hadith stand as a solid proof that Allah is above the heaven? Doubtlessly, that slave girl, the shepherdess, knew her Rabb more than those ignorantly claim that Allah is everywhere!

LOL don't mind them, even an ANT believes Allah is above His creation. They should go and read the hadith of istisqa of prophet Sulaiman

After giving long thought and my experience with AlBaqir and Empiree, I decided to ask the following question instead of typing epistles

1. What is supplication the above 2 mentioned make when they make sujud?

Subhana rabialla'la (glorified is my lord the most high)

Why not fihullimakan ( who is everywhere) ?

2 . when both of them supplicate to their Lord they raise their hands to the sky, I wonder why they don't do otherwise.

These deviants think that they know Allah better than Himself.

Your imported ideology goes against your normal routine practices and human instincts

#AllahisaboveHisthrone

Fundamentalist:

1. What is supplication the above 2 mentioned make when they make sujud?

Subhana rabialla'la (glorified is my lord the most high)

Why not fihullimakan ( who is everywhere) ?

Meaning of "ABOVE" or "HIGH"
"...what they call upon besides Him is falsehood; Allah is the High, the Great {Quran22:61}

The first group of Muslims in this discourse believe Allah being "Al-Aliyy" (Above or High) simply means He is "above His creation" as in high (height) in the heavens above while His creation are below on earth.

However, the word "Al-Aliyy" is derived from "uluww", height, sublimity, or loftiness versus lowliness. The height refer to here is that of status. Al-Aliyy is High, so High that He can never be conceived or visualized. Minds are at a loss regarding His greatness; intellects are incapable of conceiving His perfection.

According to Al-Mufradat, one who is "Aliyy" is a prominent person, a man of distinction. When applied to the Almighty, as in Q.22:61 cited above, the implied meaning is that He is above being described by anyone or truly known by anyone. Quran says: "He is the Most High, the Great"{Q.2:255}; "...judgement belongs to Allah, the High, the Great" {Q.13:9}.

Only sick mind will apply "Height" instead of "Loftiness" to Allah in these verses.

Fundamentalist:


2 . when both of them supplicate to their Lord they raise their hands to the sky, I wonder why they don't do otherwise.

These deviants think that they know Allah better than Himself.

Your imported ideology goes against your normal routine practices and human instincts

One of the etiquettes (adab) of Du'a is to stretch the two hands "to collect something". Indeed He is the Giver and we are the needy. Our stretched hands simply signify and portray us as needy.

Does raising the hands above one's head or up the sky literally signify Allah is up there confined in the sky?

Qur'an says: "...I am near to him than his jugular vein

"And when My servants ask you concerning Me, then surely I am very near; I answer the prayer of the suppliant when he calls on Me..."

Again when Quran says "Allah is everywhere", and when it says "wheresoever you turn your face there is Allah's face", part of that "where" is the heavens, and of course anywhere I or Empiree find ourselves.

Remember when Abu Bakar was exercising grief and repeatedly fearing, while he was with the blessed prophet in the cave, Prophet emphatically told him as reported in the Quran "Do not fear. Surely Allah is with us. In fact in sahih Bukhari, prophet was reported by AbuBakar himself to have said: "O Abu Bakar! What do you think of the two in which Allah is their third?"

How will you not think Allah is confined on a chair in the sky, thereby, raising two hands during Du'a testify to your ill taught when Abu Hurairah in sahih Bukhari/Muslim reported that Allah used to come down from the 7th heavens to the 1st heavens at the later part of the night to listen to the prayer of the suppliant? This is blatantly contradictory to the Quran

This exactly is the teachings of the Bible which says God come down and walking like a giant searching for Adam and Eve saying "where are thou".

This same attribute of God, having a gigantic leg is found in Sahih Bukhari/Muslim; with five fingers where He puts earth on one finger, water on another finger etc.

Fundamentalist:


#AllahisaboveHisthrone

Allah is "above" His throne. In fact He says "Rabbul Ar'shil Azeem". Meaning He is the Lord, the Creator and the sustainer of that throne. So if your manhaj understood "He is above His throne" as sitting down on the throne in the heavens, so how is He the Lord (Rabb), the Sustainer of the throne He "depends" on?

One tin I av noticed in dis discussion is that both sides bring verses from the koran to support dier views about God.....one group(saying God is finite) bring forth dier verses nd do not even bother about the 2nd groups verses whereas the second group (saying God is everywhere) also bring forth verses to support dier claim but unlike the 1st group also try to dier utmost to explain the verses from the group.
The first group should also try to do justice to d 2nd group's claims by trying to explain d verses d bring forth nd not resulting to an unintelligible and unfathomable claim that intellect cannot be used to explain d word of the koran...if this is so the non-muslims too will be correct if they say God is five,seven or even hundred and when we ask why deh say, intelligence cannot be applied in dis realm yet we "crucify" dem for it....
I think intelligence is what makes you distinguish btw correct and incorrect,ryt and wrong,true or false even the koran exclaimed "when a person brings forth a news to you do verify the news".. for verification requires intelligence

Fundamentalist:
After giving long thought and my experience with AlBaqir and Empiree, I decided to ask the following question instead of typing epistles

1. What is supplication the above 2 mentioned make when they make sujud?

Subhana rabialla'la (glorified is my lord the most high)

Why not fihullimakan ( who is everywhere) ?

2 . when both of them supplicate to their Lord they raise their hands to the sky, I wonder why they don't do otherwise.

These deviants think that they know Allah better than Himself.

Your imported ideology goes against your normal routine practices and human instincts

#AllahisaboveHisthrone

You are a confirmed "literalist". Albaqir handsomely explained it all. If what you belief is creed of salafi on this topic, you guys have huge problem. It means as Albaqir rightly said, your creed resembles christianity.

ACARDIP dawah organization also explained as Albaqir just did. Man, I cant belief you would attach or attribute literal meanings to Allah just like that. Very ridiculous. if proper care is not taken, you would belief as a Christian brother who asked on ACARDIP that when Allah says "We sent down the Book (Quran)" ......does that mean God threw Quran down from the sky?

AlBaqir:
@sino,
What exactly is your point brother? That we cannot understand Quran or are not allowed to its in-depth meanings except we take only from the "salaf's" understanding?

From where does this theory emanate? Certainly not from the Quran and the Prophet!
And certainly We have made the Quran easy to understand and remember, but is there anyone who will mind?
{surah Qamar: 15,17,22,32,41,50}

In fact we are not duty-bound to follow any salaf except the Ahl al-Bayt for the prophet was reported to have said:
"O mankind! I have left behind over you that which if you hold fast to it you will NEVER go astray:
the Book of Allah and my Offspring, my Ahl al-Bayt"
NB: This hadith is Mutawattir, so there is no sweat over it. Should you wish to challenge that, be my guest.

In another Sigha of the above hadith, the concluding statement is:
"...the two (Quran and Ahl al-Bayt) shall NEVER separate from each other until they meet me at the pool"

Apart from the Ahl al-Bayt of the Prophet, there is no guarantee on any Salaf as per deviation from the meaning of the Quran, to say the least.

Intellectual Understanding of the Quran
Brother, did I hear you right that we cannot explore Quran intellectually?

Logic, philosophy and science are tools of intellectual capability endowed by Allah for man. This is what distinguished us from other creature and Allah says:
"...and We have honoured the son of Adam".

And if we talk about intellectual exploration of the Quran, what do we mean? Here we talk about an Aql embedded with Iman and ma'arifah not every tom, dick and harry so-called intellectuals.

Interestingly, Quran (vis-a-vis the Prophet) used a lot of logical and philosophical argument to awaken people to the truth. So how strange your Ulama feel disturbed when we explore these verses under discussion (about Arsh, kursi hand, leg, face and body of Allah) through intellectual, logical and philosophical proving when they themselves uses all these to prove wrong the atheist, scientist, and people of the book?

Quran was revealed simplified. And its structure are made known. It contain Clear verses which are made the foundation of the entire book. The other verses is Ambiguous [sura al-Imran:7].

How do we understand the Ambiguous verses? Definitely through the Clear verses for they are the foundation. Any building that deviate from its foundation is Batil (falsehood) and will collapse.

I laughed at length when you said I shouldn't think of you believing in anthropomorphic nature of Allah. Are you confessing some of the ahadith that blatantly claimed this in the prestigious sahih al-Bukhari and Muslim reported by one and only Abu Hurairah, are false?

Wow brother Albaqir, now we are talking about understanding the whole Qur’an and not the attributes of Allah (SWT) vis-à-vis ambiguous verses? Great! Now I keep wondering why you just fail to quote the whole verse of Al-Imran verse 7, is it because it defeats your claim for this your “intellectual” discourse? What did Allah say about searching for the meaning of ambiguous verses? Do you have deviations in your heart? How can you claim to understand what Allah (SWT) says is HIDDEN?!

So what do we believe about the aql (intellect)? Well, for starters, our aql is limited and deficient #Fact!

Therefore, we do not put the cart before the horse, the revelations/narrations takes precedence, and then aql is applied to be in sync with naql. This is the ways of the Prophets (‘Alayhim Salam), the companions (Radiyallahu anhum) and the Salafs (Ridwanullahi alayhim ajma’in). In usul-l-fiqh, aql is the last resort, after the Faqih has exhausted other options which can be categorized as naql (revelation (Qur’an), sunnah, consensus of the Scholars etc.). He does all this by applying ijtihad. If we do not need to understand this process, then, there would be no need for the Prophet (SAW), no need for companions and even scholars in the deen, everyone would be in the corner of his/her room and pass fatwa based on his “superior intellect”.

And in truth, Allah (SWT) has made the Qur’an easy to understand, except for those in whose heart is a disease and deviation, thus, Allah (SWT) states:

Muhsin Khan
It is He Who has sent down to you (Muhammad SAW) the Book (this Quran). In it are Verses that are entirely clear, they are the foundations of the Book [and those are the Verses of Al-Ahkam (commandments, etc.), Al-Fara'id (obligatory duties) and Al-Hudud (legal laws for the punishment of thieves, adulterers, etc.)]; and others not entirely clear. So as for those in whose hearts there is a deviation (from the truth) they follow that which is not entirely clear thereof, seeking Al-Fitnah (polytheism and trials, etc.), and seeking for its hidden meanings, but none knows its hidden meanings save Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in it; the whole of it (clear and unclear Verses) are from our Lord." And none receive admonition except men of understanding. (Tafsir At-Tabari). (Quran 3 vs 7)

This verse above is one of the clear verses Allah (SWT) talks about, even a layman does not need a scholar to understand this statement, but we know that those with “esoteric” knowledge would claim otherwise, and this just explains much of their self deception.

How can you even start building, when the foundation is not there at all in the first place? Well, if you must know, the ahlu-l-bayt are to be placed under salafu-salih (righteous predecessor), they followed the Qur’an, and followed the best of mankind, Prophet Muhammad (SAW), they were the pioneers of the deen, so I see no reason to start making distinctions here… Using logic and philosophy that does not conform to the shari’ah is batil (falsehood), so making claims about Allah (SWT) which He did not make about himself nor the Prophet (SAW) did not make nor the righteous predecessor is falsehood, it is as simple as that.

I know you have little regards for the salaf (and this is quite unfortunate), except for the Ahlu-l-bayt, but such attitude raises a red flag! Why? Let’s read from shia collections…

وعن موسى بن جعفر عن آبائه عليهم السلام قال: قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم: (القرون أربع: أنا في أفضلها قرناً، ثم الثاني، ثم الثالث، فإذا كان الرابع التقى الرجال بالرجال والنساء بالنساء، فقبض الله كتابه من صدور بني آدم، فيبعث الله ريحاً سوداء، ثم لا يبقى أحد سوى الله تعالى إلا قبضه الله إليه بحار الأنوار: (22/309)

From Musa bin Jafar from his fathers who said: The Messenger of Allah (saw) said: There will be 4 generations, the best of generations is the one in which I am living, then the second, then the third [Biharul Anwar Volume:22 Page:309]

In the Shia book ‘Muruj al zahab’ by Masudi states that Abdullah ibn Abbas [r.a] said:

إن الله جل ثناؤه وتقدست أسماؤه خص نبيه محمداً صلى الله عليه وسلم بصحابة آثروه على الأنفس والأموال، وبذلوا النفوس دونه في كل حال، ووصفهم الله في كتابه فقال: رحماء بينهم

Indeed Allah is the One with pure names, who bestowed His Prophet Muhammad [s] with such Sahaba who sacrificed their lives and wealth on him, and left everyone accept him. The God Almighty mentioned their qualities in the Holy Quran in the words ‘compassionate amongst themselves’ [Muruj al zahab, Vol. 3, p. 52]

Ali (ra) says:
لقد رأيت أصحاب محمد صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم، فما أرى أحداً يشبههم، لقد كانوا يصبحون شعثاً غبراً، وقد باتوا سجداً وقياماً، يراوحون بين جباههم وخدودهم، ويقفون على مثل الجمر من ذكر معادهم، كأن بين أعينهم ركب المعزى من طول سجودهم، إذا ذكر الله هملت أعينهم حتى تبل جيوبهم، ومادوا كما يميد الشجر يوم الريح العاصف خوفاً من العقاب ورجاءً للثواب

I have seen the companions of the Prophet but I do not find anyone resembling them. They began the day with dust on the hair and face (in hardship of life) and passed the night in prostration and standing in prayers. Sometimes they put down their foreheads and sometimes their cheeks. With the recollection of their resurrection it seemed as though they stood on live coal. It seemed that in between their eyes there were signs like knees of goats, resulting from long prostrations. When Allah was mentioned their eyes flowed freely till their shirt collars were drenched. They trembled for fear of punishment and hope of reward as the tree trembles on the day of stormy wind. [Nahjul Balagha, sermon 96]

وروى المجلسي عن الطوسي رواية موثوقة عن الإمام علي كرم الله وجهه أنه قال لأصحابه: أوصيكم في أصحاب رسول الله صلى الله عليهوآله وسلم : لا تسبوهم؛ فإنهم أصحاب نبيكم، وهم أصحابه الذين لم يبتدعوا في الدين شيئاً، ولم يوقروا صاحب بدعة، نعم! أوصاني رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم في هؤلاء

Shia scholar Majlisi has narrated from Tusi who has narrated a Muwathaq tradition, from Ali that he said “I order you regarding the companions of the Prophet (s) , don’t criticize them, because they are the companions of your Prophet (s). They are his companions, they didn’t start any bidah in the religion, nor given honor to any innovator. Yes! The Prophet (s) has ordered me regarding them.
Hayat ul Qulub , Vol. 2, p. 621

Sheikh Saduq (a shi’a scholar) in his book “Khisal” narrated:
كان أصحاب رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله اثنى عشر ألف رجل
28-5 حدثنا أحمد بن زياد بن جعفر الهمداني رضي الله عنه قال: حدثنا علي ابن إبراهيم بن هاشم، عن أبيه، عن محمد بن أبي عمير، عن هشام بن سالم، عن أبي عبد الله عليه السلام قال: كان أصحاب رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله اثني عشر ألفا ثمانية آلاف من المدينة، وألفان من مكة، وألفان من الطلقاء، ولم ير فيهم قدري ولا مرجي ولا حروري ولا معتزلي، ولا صحاب رأي، كانوا يبكون الليل والنهار ويقولون: اقبض أرواحنا من قبل أن نأكل خبز الخمير.
THERE WERE TWELVE THOUSAND COMPANIONS OF THE PROPHET
28-5 Ahmad ibn Zyad ibn Ja’far al-Hamedany – may God be pleased with him – narrated that Ali ibn Ibrahim ibn Hashim quoted his father, on the authority of Muhammad ibn Abi Umayr, on the authority of Hisham ibn Salim that Aba Abdullah as-Sadiq (alaihi salam) said, “There were twelve-thousand companions for God’s Prophet (sallalahu alaihi wa ali). Eight-thousand of them were from Medina, two-thousand of them were from Mecca and another two-thousand of them were the free atheist who had become Muslims. There were no Qadarites, Marajites, Kharajites, Mo’tazelites, nor any who act according to their own opinions. They cried day and night and said, ‘O God! Please take away our souls before we eat barley bread”.

From the above shia narrations (I decided not to quote sunni narrations, cos I know you have issues with our books), we have seen that the best generation of Muslims are the salafs, no Muslim I know, have ever belittle their opinion, for their opinion is based on the Qur’an and sunnah (they are fallible, hence, we seek forgiveness for them as instructed by Allah (SWT) (Quran 59 vs 10). We all aspire to be like them, so their understanding of the Qur’an, Allah (SWT) and the Prophet’s sunnah is sacrosanct. If not for the fact that Allah (SWT) chose them, you Albaqir would not have the Qur’an, narrations you (selectively) pick from; the Hadith, the Tafsir, the sirah and all other branches of knowledge of the deen.

But what do I know, you might as well say they were all “anthropomorphist” like us who hold on to their understanding that Allah (SWT) is above his arsh above the seven heavens, beyond His creation, as He (SWT) states about himself:


Sahih International
The Most Merciful [who is] above the Throne established.

Muhsin Khan
The Most Beneficent (Allah) Istawa (rose over) the (Mighty) Throne (in a manner that suits His Majesty). (Qur’an 20 vs 5)

You may try to force your understanding into what I present; you are just making a mockery of your ideology, trying to put words into my mouth. Allah (SWT) is nothing like his creations, but some of His attributes are similar in the way He (SWT) chose to describe Himself, we don’t seek to know the how-ness or modalities, for these are hidden to us, Sheikh Ibn Taymiyah did a very brilliant analysis on this issue (Al Qadr Al Mushtarik), but I know of your deep rooted dislike for this Scholar, so I won’t quote him, but rather say, we know and understand Allah’s names and attributes, based on the fact that we can relate to it as a result of what we know and understand about our own reality (not Allah’s (SWT) reality). For example, when Allah (SWT) says He is Ar-Rahman (The merciful), we know and understand mercy which we may use amongst ourselves, but we cannot explain what Allah’s Mercy entails nor can we describe it like our ways of showing mercy, so we look into the naql (revelation/narration), what Allah (SWT) says about His mercy, What the Prophet (SAW) explained, and how the salafs understood Allah’s mercy, an example of how Allah (SWT) explains His mercy is this; He (SWT) is Arham Rahemeen meaning HE (SWT) is the best of those who show mercy and in a narration, the Prophet (SAW) explained Allah’s mercy being greater than that of a mother to her born child…Now Albaqir, how do you use your brilliant intellect to explain how Allah (SWT) is Arham rahemeen?

It will be foolhardy for someone who claims intellect, to say that our believe in Allah (SWT) is above his throne (arsh) above the seven heavens, beyond his creation, or that He (SWT) has hands, eyes, or that He(SWT) speaks as stated by Allah (SWT) in his glorious book, entails us comparing and believing that He (SWT) is sitting on a throne like we do, has hands like our own, eyes like ours and speak like us…even amongst ourselves, we don’t make such comparison, because no two humans are alike, there is always a distinction, and even far-fetched and ridiculous is to compare and describe something we have never seen before to another even if they do have the same name or attribute.

So another question Albaqir, Allah (SWT) describes Jannah (Paradise), He (SWT) Says about Rivers of milk and honey believers would drink from, how do you use your brilliant intellect to explain these? Or the Huris, and the fruits and mansions in Jannah?! I think I’m even going too far, please help tell us what Alif, Lam mim means as used in the Qur’an, remember , your intellect holds the answer…

And again, you claim Allah (SWT) is everywhere, even in feces? And that your argument about bacteria in feces is laughable, so because Allah (SWT) created bacteria to live in such places means Allah (SWT) is there?! Subhanallah!!! What about the strip clubs and gay palours?! Or the shrines filled with Idols?! Even you Albaqir would never want to associate yourself with such places, so is Allah (SWT) in such filthy places too?! Subhanallah anma yasifuun….

Finally, we believe in Allah (SWT) the way He (SWT) chose to describe himself in the glorious Qur’an or through His best creation Prophet Muhammad (SAW), and understood by the righteous predecessors, we do not negate any of His names and attributes, nor try to explain the how-ness and modalities or try explaining in our own terms (intellect) and smuggling (into Allah’s words) alternate meaning of these names and attributes He chose for Himself (SWT), they are perfect and without deficiency, and nothing is like unto him.

Allah (SWT) knows best.

dekatrons:
One tin I av noticed in dis discussion is that both sides bring verses from the koran to support dier views about God.....one group(saying God is finite) bring forth dier verses nd do not even bother about the 2nd groups verses whereas the second group (saying God is everywhere) also bring forth verses to support dier claim but unlike the 1st group also try to dier utmost to explain the verses from the group.
The first group should also try to do justice to d 2nd group's claims by trying to explain d verses d bring forth nd not resulting to an unintelligible and unfathomable claim that intellect cannot be used to explain d word of the koran...if this is so the non-muslims too will be correct if they say God is five,seven or even hundred and when we ask why deh say, intelligence cannot be applied in dis realm yet we "crucify" dem for it....
I think intelligence is what makes you distinguish btw correct and incorrect,ryt and wrong,true or false even the koran exclaimed "when a person brings forth a news to you do verify the news".. for verification requires intelligence

It seems you skipped some readings bro, go back and read again...

Again bro, you are getting way ahead of yourself, Allah (SWT) is finite?! Interesting, you are the one making this claim, not those of us who say Allah (SWT) is above his creation, believing what He (SWT) says and not trying to find (hidden) meaning other than what is apparent (zahir) and not literal (lugah).

Comparing what have been posted here in regards to Allah (SWT) being above his creation thus far, to an unsubstantiated claim of having more than one God is ridiculous I must say, proofs have been provided, from the Qur’an, hadiths and book of tafsir, but you just ignore them, why? You are bent on believing whatever argument that is contrary to what is explicitly stated in the Qur’an and what is reported in the hadiths and what the righteous predecessors believe.

So you are also into the intellectual gymnastics right?! Give me your resume bro, what do you know about Islamic knowledge? You graduated from Medinah? Al-Ahazar? Any University in Nigeria with a BA in Arabic and Islamic studies? Do you speak Arabic? Or you graduated from which local madrasah? How many Hadiths have you memorized with their chain of transmission? If you cannot comfortably answer any of the above questions, abeg come join my group, which is, bunch of Islamic religion enthusiast, in simple terms, laymen with the love for the deen. For your information, in regards to Islam, Allah (SWT), what the Prophet (SAW) says, and what the righteous predecessors held on to determines what is correct and what is not, not you or your intellect, your intellect can only help you accept or deny.

@sino, honestly you like going back and forth. You like opening what is irrelevant to discussions. I hate derailment.
This is not the first time. Anyway for the record, I have absolutely no problem with Salaf SALIH or taking from them. Please highlight the SALIH as i have nothing to do with the hypocrites among the Salaf which unfortunately the Sunni world see ALL as Saliheen. Quran and ahadith exposed them a lot.
If our aimma praised Sahaba and urged their followers to do the same, they simply refer to the righteous among them the way Allah Himself praise and send greetings to them. You can refer to sahifah sajjadiyah of Imam Sajjad for a chapter on Sahaba al-ikram. I am an ardent doer of this dua.

However the vital point is we are not commanded by Allah or His prophet to follow any salaf except the Ahl al-Bayt. I dare you talk about Hadith Thaqalain and Hadith Khalifatain which designated the Ahl al-Bayt as par of the Quran that must be followed provided you want guidance. Any other thing apart from these two is stray. Period.

Funny enough, who exactly are you trying to entice when you qoute long list of ahadith from Shii sources? Me or yourself? You see these ahadith as proves to your point (as if I against Sahaba) yet those ahadith I quoted from the same shii sources from Imam Ali that explain verses under discussion are meaningless to you.


Secondly, I don't need to expantiate on Quran 3:7 as you cannot agree with Empiree on the fundamental part of that ayah - "...no one knows the meaning except Allah and those who are grand in knowledge...". I am of the opinion that Allah grant these people these hidden knowledge but your manhaj disconnect the flow of the ayAh. I dare you talk about hadith Thaqalain.

Salam my dear brother.

sino:

It seems you skipped some readings bro, go back and read again...

Again bro, you are getting way ahead of yourself, Allah (SWT) is finite?! Interesting, you are the one making this claim, not those of us who say Allah (SWT) is above his creation, believing what He (SWT) says and not trying to find (hidden) meaning other than what is apparent (zahir) and not literal (lugah).

Comparing what have been posted here in regards to Allah (SWT) being above his creation thus far, to an unsubstantiated claim of having more than one God is ridiculous I must say, proofs have been provided, from the Qur’an, hadiths and book of tafsir, but you just ignore them, why? You are bent on believing whatever argument that is contrary to what is explicitly stated in the Qur’an and what is reported in the hadiths and what the righteous predecessors believe.

So you are also into the intellectual gymnastics right?! Give me your resume bro, what do you know about Islamic knowledge? You graduated from Medinah? Al-Ahazar? Any University in Nigeria with a BA in Arabic and Islamic studies? Do you speak Arabic? Or you graduated from which local madrasah? How many Hadiths have you memorized with their chain of transmission? If you cannot comfortably answer any of the above questions, abeg come join my group, which is, bunch of Islamic religion enthusiast, in simple terms, laymen with the love for the deen. For your information, in regards to Islam, Allah (SWT), what the Prophet (SAW) says, and what the righteous predecessors held on to determines what is correct and what is not, not you or your intellect, your intellect can only help you accept or deny.

well bro I see u dnt understand the implications of d words uve been using earlier..what could it mean if some1 says that Allah has a hand or a leg a face and even sits on a throne if not finitude...2nd is most muslims unanimously agree that Allah is above His creation the point of incoherence is deir approach to dat statement in d sense dat is d word above used in terms of loftiness and majesty or in terms of position?
As for the 3rd point..I am not a scholar nor a saint but a student of knowledge,nd in my quest for knowledge I av tried my best to avoid being sentimental as the saying goes look at d message not the messenger...but d case is different with what I av seen here so far what deh do is ask which sect dis person or dat person belongs to not paying attention to His message
Lol..I guess what you guys do is make a literal interpretation of d holy koran..wow if dats d case dere will be no point in pondering on it since all we av to do is translate it literally and the verse which asks us to ponder on the koran will make no sense,why ponder on it when everything is glaring..nd the verse which says "many will be guided aright by it and many will be led astray by it will also make no meaning if it is glaring nd should b taken literally why will it guide people astray, is it that it contains some controversies
And thirdly the verse which says Allah guides alright whom ever He wishes and leads astray whom ever he desires wen taken literally will mean that Allah selects some people and guides them and then leads astray oda people...which will also be a contradiction to d verse which says "for those who strives in our path we shall indeed guide dem in our path"....I guess ure getting a lot of things wrong bro,, the koran needs us to ponder on it frequently nd decipher the hidden treasures within it

I trust these brothers sino and Albaqir. They would write pages to proof their points . Anyways, make i siddon, eat popcorn while the show last.

As for bro Sino, let me say this again that I undertsand point you tried to raise in terms of "mutashabiat". I have no problem with it. However, i simply dont buy the approach used this days when in fact there are evidences to back up certain ayat or hadith. Let me give you example. First all, we need to know what we dealing with on mutashabiat. As I have heard from contemporary scholars of islam that Quran is to be understood with time. This common sense. But what mainstream muslims usually say is if Allah and His messanger have not interpreted an ayah, no one else has the right to do so. This approach is very wrong.

Now, here are few examples of what I am talking about. In the hadith, we see quiet lots of statements of rosul(SAW) that are symbolic. But if those statements are to be literally interpreted, muslims would dumpest people on earth...actually are we not?. Here is the hadith (paraphased) that talks about "black gold". It says that people will fight over black gold in akhir zaman. When i was in salafism (sorry to speak) few yrs back and came across the hadith on fb, i asked brothers over and over, they simply have no clue what hadith is talking about. A brother finally came and interpreted the verse to mean "a huge black gold like mountain or mountain of gold" will surface in the Last Age. Hummm, i took a deep breath. It was later i was talking to my hindu friend about politics and we got to the discussion about "black gold". He didnt even blink before he said it is oil. I didnt ask him. He was basically talking. Later i listened to lecture by Sheik Imran who gave details on the subject. And he accused muslims of intepreting "black gold" literally when in fact there is evidence in the world today. So mainstream muslims are still waiting for a huge mountain of gold to surface somehere on earth where everyone will fight over it. This is very ridiculous. My point is when the prophet (SAW) used phrase black gold, that sounds like mutashabiat to me. Does that mean we muslims can not use our intellect as time passes with evidence around us?

We also see hadith where rosul(SAW) is reported to have said Dajjal will fly on a donkey with his hair stretch wide. Someone was putting these ahadith up on fb btw 2008-2011 i was there. No reasonable answers by those who called themselves salafi becus they said rosul did not interpret them. They would tell us that Allah knows best. Ofcourse we know that. But there are evidences around us today. These evideces were not there at the time of sahaba. It is therefore impossible for aslaf to know exaclty what rosul was refering to. Today, our brothers are looking for a "flying donkey". Thats just sad. And i say to them, you will be waiting forever. "Flying donkey" is already here and that's modern aircraft.

So these are few mutashabiat. Those statements of rosul need tawil by men who are firmly grounded in knowledge(sura Imran). Not by Tom, Dick and Harry. There is no tafsir for them. Go and check. No tafsir for them. Why?...because aslaf could not possibly sensed modern technology. Quran IS TO BE UNDERSTOOD WITH TIME. This not polytheism.

There are also bunch of verses of mutashabiat in Sura Khaf like a pious man called khidr(AS) and his narration with Musa(AS). To be fair though, we first all must assume literal interpretation to ayat or hadith since they are word for word until evidence surface to suggest otherwise. It's ony after men of knowledge have explored their intellect (whether they are correct or not) they must say wallahu alam becase their tawil is not binding on anyone unless we are convinced.

AlBaqir:


I subscribe firmly to the opinion which says Allah is everywhere with everything and in everything.

Pantheism is the belief that the Universe (or Nature as the totality of everything) is identical with divinity, or that everything composes an all-encompassing, immanent God.

Monotheism is defined by the Encyclopædia Britannica as belief in the existence of one god or in the oneness of God.[1] The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church gives a more restricted definition: "belief in one personal and transcendent God", as opposed to polytheism and pantheism.

It is obvious these people talk of some other than Islam, when you say God is in everything, do imagine it to include your feces? or sewage? or blood? or garbage? Subahanallah! The obvious failings of this sort of thinking becomes evident.

If you say God is in everything then an Idolater can always claim to be right in worshiping a stone, a tree, or jsut about anything, simply put, he can "intellectually" argue he is worshiping God one way another.

In fact you would have no case against the Christians, since once again, these people can simply say, God is in Jesus, since you say he is in everything. Simply put, there will be no basis for questioning other religion's adherence to their various theological view point on God.

Sino and Co unah well done, but I tend to avoid an argument in which one party picks whatever itches their fancy and expects the other to abide by such itch!
My 2 cents.

Assalamu aleikum,

Sino has done a great job.

From an intellectual stand point, Allah being everywhere does not make sense.

Since the universe has a beginning and is finite. Allah must exist outside of it.

tbaba1234:
Assalamu aleikum,

Sino has done a great job.

From an intellectual stand point, Allah being everywhere does not make sense.

Since the universe has a beginning and is finite. Allah must exist outside of it.

But sitting on a chair in the 7th heaven or above the heaven does makes sense intellectually! I guess the word "intellectual" doesn't exist in y'all dico.

Wa alaykum Salam.

tbaba1234:
Assalamu aleikum,

Sino has done a great job.

From an intellectual stand point, Allah being everywhere does not make sense.

Since the universe has a beginning and is finite. Allah muse exist outside of it.

Do u mean dat Allah must exist in a place wit no beginning nd isn infinite....is dere such a place? Pls I'll like to knw.

AlBaqir:


But sitting on a chair in the 7th heaven or above the heaven does makes sense intellectually! I guess the word "intellectual" doesn't exist in y'all dico.

Wa alaykum Salam.

lol but it is very intellectual for God to be in your feces? subahanallah! smh!

Okay, this is getting stalled.

You know when aircraft looses control and spirals around mountain few thousands feet above ground level, then you hear "stall stall...stall stall....stall stall...". If captain has no clue what the heck to do to get the freaking aircraft out of stall, the next thing you hear is BUUUUUUUUUUUUUM. Aircraft slams on mountain and everything gets CRUSHED

I see same here right now....."clash of titans".

vedaxcool:


Pantheism is the belief that the Universe (or Nature as the totality of everything) is identical with divinity, or that everything composes an all-encompassing, immanent God.

Monotheism is defined by the Encyclopædia Britannica as belief in the existence of one god or in the oneness of God.[1] The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church gives a more restricted definition: "belief in one personal and transcendent God", as opposed to polytheism and pantheism.

It is obvious these people talk of some other than Islam, when you say God is in everything, do imagine it to include your feces? or sewage? or blood? or garbage? Subahanallah! The obvious failings of this sort of thinking becomes evident.

If you say God is in everything then an Idolater can always claim to be right in worshiping a stone, a tree, or jsut about anything, simply put, he can "intellectually" argue he is worshiping God one way another.

In fact you would have no case against the Christians, since once again, these people can simply say, God is in Jesus, since you say he is in everything. Simply put, there will be no basis for questioning other religion's adherence to their various theological view point on God.

Sino and Co unah well done, but I tend to avoid an argument in which one party picks whatever itches their fancy and expects the other to abide by such itch!
My 2 cents.

Its really not obligatory to make comment especially when you don't feel like reading the two opposing arguments. Anyway your presence is recognized, man.

If we say God is everywhere with everything and in everything, what do we mean? You should have read this thread and attack base on what you read. In faeces , blood, garbage or whatever, many have been said already. Repetition here doesn't count.

Again, when Quran says God is everywhere with everybody, Sunni Ulama makes no hesitation to interpret it as "His knowledge encompass all" but they are hell-bent to literally say "He rose on the throne" mean just as He says it. If He stays up there on the throne, and His knowledge is down here with us, are your Ulama implying that we can separate Him and His attributes?

Allah is He who created whereness but nowhere can contain Him. Being everywhere with everything and in everything never imply we believe He moves like sort of air or whatever contrary to what sahih Bukhari imply that He used to move from one heaven to the other. No one can ever describe His essence. The only way He describe Himself literally to us is through His attributes [asma al-husna]. "Glory be to Him far from what they ascribe to Him".

Using those who misinterpreted wahdatul wujud and hence commit a sin, for example , and says since He is in them that means He's the one that actually committed the sin; this kind of comparism does not work here, man. Allah is in everything by virtue of His power and knowledge. He knows and sustain every single microorganisms in that stinky faeces of yours, infact, those microbes are living by virtue of His attribute of "al-Hayy, the living". It is left for you to separate Him from His attributes!

Every single micro and macro particles that formed that stinky faeces of yours are what they are with their function by His attributes.

dekatrons:

Do u mean dat Allah must exist in a place wit no beginning nd isn infinite....is dere such a place? Pls I'll like to knw.

The fact that the universe is finite means that Allah exists outside of it..

Space and time itself are constructs of our existence in this universe . Allah is not limited by that.

That makes your question meaningless. We only understand space and time because we exist in this universe.

Allah describes himself in the Quran but we do not place human limitations on Allah and we do not take away from the way, he described himself.

Empiree doesnt have problems with both sides at all. I grew up with understanding of this subject played out by sino. However, knowledge is broad. I have come to understand that Ism-Allah ta'la is in everything. Believe it or not.

Problem with literal interpretation is if human attributes are attributed to Allah...that's very problematic. As for Albaqir theory, I have no problem with it at all. I understand it. I dont think brothers understood his explanation. Even copy of Quran i have since 2000 was printed in king fard complex says "Allah is everywhere" but in parenthesis, (by His knowledge). I understand not putting Allah in His creation. Thats common knowledge actually.

There is absolutely no way we can understand Allah's wisdom. The people of dhikr are acquainted with these things. There is a lot to see when we cling on to Allah's names in seclusion for certain amount of days. That is beyond theoretical approach. Everything about Him is NOT confined to text.

vedaxcool:


lol but it is very intellectual for God to be in your feces? subahanallah! smh!

it seems my brother, vedaxcool, is really interested in faeces chemistry and its unity with its creator, Allah.

Now on a serious note, lets consider these noble verses together:

1. الله خلق كل شي Allah is the Creator of everything.

Does it include your faeces, blood or not? Faeces composed of micro and macro molecules, living organisms etc. Who created, fashioned and sustains those molecules and microbes that works harmoniously. Allah or you?

Another ayah says everything He created is perfect. That consideration of yours in that "imperfect stinky faeces" is a perfect formulation of Allah. Its one of those things that keeps you alive and healthy when you pass it out and its value and functions in the life of living things is magnanimous. We have created not for fun....We have created everything with wisdom...We have created everything and assigned its course. الله اكبر

2. يسبح لله ما في السموت وما في الارض Everything in the heavens and the earth is praising Allah.

Does these include all the millions of microbes in your stinky faeces or not?

A pig whose habitat is damn stinky, who feeds on nothing but stinky faeces and the likes do constantly in that very state praise her Lord. And the pig in that state is another example of Allah's perfection in His creation.

3. لا اله الا انت سبحنك اني كنت من الظلمين "There is no god except He, glory be to You, indeed I am among the zalimun"

This munajat is one the best revealed in the Quran. It is that of Nabi Yunus. He cried and call upon his Lord in the belly of the whale.

Try to imagine how extra-stinky the belly of a whale will be. Talk about the stinky juices and hazardous chemicals with macro-molecule waste product in the belly of this largest animal. Yet Nabi Yunus realized his Lord is closer to him that his jugular vein and he never cease for days and nights calling Him. And Allah says:

[color=#990000]So We responded to him and delivered him from the grief and thus do We deliver the believers.[/color ]

Vedaxcool, if it was you, you will never have seen or realize God in that stinky place.
........................
How much you see and how much you think is what will reveal the secret of Him and His manifestation and unity in EVERYTHING on earth and beyond it to you.

Wa Salam alaykum brother.

tbaba1234:


The fact that the universe is finite means that Allah exists outside of it..

Space and time itself are constructs of our existence in this universe . Allah is not limited by that.

That makes your question meaningless. We only understand space and time because we exist in this universe.

Allah describes himself in the Quran but we do not place human limitations on Allah and we do not take away from the way, he described himself.

Haha...yes indeed saying Allah exists outside the universe bcause the universe is finite means that HE is "INFINITE" so to say which affirm to our point that HE is everywhere And no-where...cause there is no such place that is infinite and that HAS no beginning that we can point at and say Allah is there or there
If the question is meaningless I tink it automatically means that ur previous post is likewise cause d question was only the result of ur post