₦airaland Forum

LordAdam:
Do not quote me if you're riding on sentiment rather than fact. The Hausa and Fulani people are not one and the same people. Same thing with the Urhobo and Isoko people.

Don't get it twisted. Each ethnicity have their unique heritage. Celebrate the uniqueness and talk about collective agreement to live together in peace. Not clumping everyone together on the altar of unity. It is insensitive and myopic.

Whatever rocks your boat Mister! We Urhobos could care less.
All I know is that Isoko and Urhobo are cultural and linguistic derivatives of each other. Isokos get on the defensive when they hear this. It reminds me of Ikwerres who get defensive when others insinuate that they are Igboid.
Isoko may be ethnically different but without doubt, it is culturally and linguistically Urhoboid. Everyone knows this so arguing against this unveils a certain inferior defensive stand.

Don't quote me again or this argument will become the subject of this thread and trust me, you can't win it or even bear the heat.

clefstone:
Goodboiy is right on that one, we ukwuanis don't see ourselves as igbos, we trace our ancestry to bini and we have a strong oral history that documents our migration from bini

The Ukwuanis have every right to self-determination or whatever they choose to call themselves. However, they are still considered Igbos by other Nigerians anytime any day. The denial of the pigeon that it is not a bird but a cat does not mean it is not a bird because when I look at the pigeon all I see is a bird.

Iyu ka ayin nenekwa. Ani ndokwa bama mma!

bigfrancis21:
The Ukwuanis have every right to self-determination or whatever they choose to call themselves. However, they are still considered Igbos by other Nigerians anytime any day. The denial of the pigeon that it is not a bird but a cat does not mean it is not a bird because when I look at the pigeon all I see is a bird.

Iyu ka ayin nenekwa. Ani ndokwa bama mma!

Mr. LordAdam, you dig my point now?

fratermathy:
Urhobo, which I can assertively speak on, loaned Igho from the Portuguese word Igou/Igos which means money. However this money implied here is in the form of coins or paper legal tender. The forms of money we used before contact with Portuguese were cowries and trade-by-barter and there are Urhobo terms for both that are not loaned.

Bro, if you have a credible source that says igou/igos is the Portuguese word for money, please share. I looked, and the words that keep coming up for Portuguese do not sound anything close to igou/igos

Radoillo:
Bro, if you have a credible source that says igou/igos is the Portuguese word for money, please share. I looked, and the words that keep coming up for Portuguese do not sound anything close to igou/igos

Download this journal article(considered the most scholarly) and goto loan words section.


http://main.journalofwestafricanlanguages.org/index.php/downloads/send/79-volume2702/379-languages-in-contact-the-case-of-edo-and-portuguese

fratermathy:
Whatever rocks your boat Mister! We Urhobos could care less.
All I know is that Isoko and Urhobo are cultural and linguistic derivatives of each other. Isokos get on the defensive when they hear this. It reminds me of Ikwerres who get defensive when others insinuate that they are Igboid.
Isoko may be ethnically different but without doubt, it is culturally and linguistically Urhoboid. Everyone knows this so arguing against this unveils a certain inferior defensive stand.

Don't quote me again or this argument will become the subject of this thread and trust me, you can't win it or even bear the heat.

Do not threaten me with an argument. I am yet to lose an argument on NL, and I am very sure I'll take you to the cleaners here.

Notwithstanding, I have nothing against the Urhobos, I see the Urhobo and Isoko people as cousins.

My main concern is not to blur the lines for selfish reasons. Today, the Isoko people are distinct from the Urhobo people. The Ika are different from the Aniocha people. The Ikwerre are different from the Ibos. The Hausa are different from the Fulani.

I will forgive outsiders blurring the lines. But an Urhobo person should not, especially noting the sensitivity of the matter.

This is about an heritage. Eroding the heritage of the black people was the foundation of slavery and colonization.

Some people on the other end of the world think Africa is a country. Shoot, we have 53 countries. On the outside, Nigerians are one and the same people. Darn, we have over 250 ethnic groups. On the outside, Urhobos and Isokos appear to be the same. Hold that thought, they are not.

I've never seen an Isoko person who when asked of his ethnicity, says he is an Urhobo person. During the 99' Warri crisis, the Isoko people were sympathetic with the Urhobo people. But they did not get into the fight.

Now scurry away, I am not about to spend a working day trying to re-educate an individual who was not taught by his elders to respect the identity of his neighbors.

Isoko is primarily Edoid, not Urhoboid. Stop furnishing your tattered ego thinking you are some father to another ethnic group. I don't see the same mentality from the Bini people who clearly seeded many clans in Urhobo and Isoko territories. Or from the Yorubas who posit that the Oba of Benin is Oduduwa's decendant.

fr3do:
You and I know that the Urhobos and Isokos are 'minority' groups and they cherish that status.
They are also generally igbophobic, you see them wailing that they have entered one chance because an Ifeanyi is their governor, they believe Igbos are expansionists and land grabbers (thanks to the lagos-ibadan expressway media houses)
Even though it may be true, blatantly saying that some of them are partly Igbo will potray you as an expansionist and a land grabber in their eyes.
I know how their minds work.

Besides, na you madness go strike

If you are 'igbo' like you claim yet do not understand the simple igbo i wrote there,then strike out that Igbo from your moniker. You are not Igbo. I like how you justify your reasons for attacking and insulting me for a simple question i asked while showing support for non Igbos at the same time.
Finally, Na u madness go strike since you don't understand a simple Igbo sentence. Efulefu should be your new name.

fratermathy:
Mr. LordAdam, you dig my point now?

When the blacks in the Americas were told that they were savage beasts without souls. Did they accept it?

Your mistake is that you seem to think that we care about how others see us. People are wrong more times than they admit and no one is truly a mouthpiece for everyone from their ethnicity.

Variety is the spice of life. Deal with it. Unlike many groups, the Isoko people do not have several in-house clans trying to separate themselves.

The Okpe people think that they should be regarded as a different ethnic group. The Uvwie people do not think they should be classes as Urhobo people. Your house is falling, and you want to raise it by entering another person's house.

Most Urhobo people I know are not particular about the Isoko people saying they are different. You should grow up or at least keep your superiority complex to yourself.

fratermathy:
Download this journal article(considered the most scholarly) and goto loan words section.


http://main.journalofwestafricanlanguages.org/index.php/downloads/send/79-volume2702/379-languages-in-contact-the-case-of-edo-and-portuguese

Oh, thanks. Although for some reason I am not able go access articles from this journal. Perhaps ome needs to belong to a subscribing university to be able to access their materials. But thanks anyway.

Ihuomadinihu:
@you,trapQ and the rest. I never said Urhobo was igbo or Igboid. Can't you all read for Pete's sake? Any reasonable person would want to investigate how Yoruba and Igbo words found their way into Urhobo and Isoko lexicon and that alone points to several sources including shared ancestry,commerce,migration,inter marriage,influence etc. I don't know why you all are ignorant of simple facts and rather curse out people. If you insist that those words few into your language just like that,so be it. Ignorance is deadlier than foolishness!

I never cursed you out, so don't misconstrue things. Also , you clearly stated that some Urhobos have Igbo ancestry, which is highly debatable. And yes, Urhobo happens to share words with Igbo and Yoruba, but it has no effect on the language as it's distinctively Edoid. There's nothing you people can do to change that.

HugoChavezJr:
I never cursed you out, so don't misconstrue things. Also , you clearly stated that some Urhobos have Igbo ancestry, which is highly debatable. And yes, Urhobo happens to share words with Igbo and Yoruba, but it has no effect on the language as it's distinctively Edoid. There's nothing you people can do to change that.

There is nothing my people want to do about it as it's not igboid. However,it's interesting that igbo found it's way into an edoid language.

rexbuton:
Half baked theories without proof, literature and logical soundness. how can these groups be referring to imperialism ? This means that all the lands uthman dan fodio invaded should have claimed him as their ancestor and had fulfude words in their dialects down to the old Oyo at kabba!!
Let's take an example, Oza-nogogo in IKA SW, they claim they were original bini speakers, then a benin king who was being chased through their land placed a spell on them, changing their dialect so his pursuers wouldn't knoW which way he went! The story is ridiculous anyway, but it doesn't change the fact that they bear edo names, they speak edo language fluently and have edo customs. And the story is similar in most towns around that axis, meaning that there had to be a real contact with the empire and not a mere subjugative relationship and moreover these towns are far too young to have been rivals to benin.

Note that benin foreign war policy was that captured towns were never allowed to speak edo language, NEVER! Instead princes and warriors were stationed there to start their own groups. Therefore any group that had bini words or bini variant dialect had to be from the source. And binis were not inland traders, so that removes the assumption that these words were loaned out due to trade contact. We only did internaational trade with the portuguese and our citizens were never sold out as slaves, so they could not have taken our language ouT.

Oza nogogo speaks an Edoid language called "ozara" , though it's dying now.

But the presence of ozara, a dying language, re affirms my point. The fact that Oza people are Edo people who migrated to an already Igbo speaking Agbor in the ancient times, is a well known fact, and they have Ozara language to prove it.

Sorry bro, you only helped my case with your Oza example.

Ika has always been Igbo speaking right from antiquity, Edo influences only introduced some Edo words and names into their vocabulary, just as Efik/ Ibibio influences introduced Efik / Ibibio names into AroChukwu vocabulary and names, but Ika like Arochukwu remain strictly Igbo, so much that any Igbo with understanding of Igbo Izugbe would have no problem holding a conversation with an Ika speaker at a first meeting. But no Bini or Edo man could ever understand Ika language.

It is a known fact that Bini at many to times in history introduced the "Ada" system in Ika area, where an Ika king can only rule if recognized by Bini, an Ika prince would be sent to Edo courts to learn the ways of the Edo, and returns at the appropriate time to take the throne in Ikaland as a Bini acculturated Ika king, who most of the time take the name of any dead famous Edo Oba, as his new name, in efforts to curry favour from Bini overlords, the New king was also fluent in Bini language, and carry out most of his court proceedings in Bini language, Bini language became an Elite language in most Ika royal courts, but the commoners spoke Ika.
The truth that Bini in the past forced her cultural imprints on Igboid speaking people of Anioma( Ika inclusive) is both a historical fact and a modern reality witnessed in Igbanke, where the Bini introduced Edoid titles like "Enogie" to replace original Igboid title that is "Eze", "Obi", etc, and where the Bini had been subtly encouraging the people to take on Edoid names, as those who do are subtly rewarded while those who doesn't are subtly frustrated.

Ogbuefi, a proud Igbo man of Ika origin once explained all these on this forum, I will look for those his posts.

But know this, no acculturation took place in Ika, the people were Igbo speaking from the very beginning.

bigfrancis21:
The Ukwuanis have every right to self-determination or whatever they choose to call themselves. However, they are still considered Igbos by other Nigerians anytime any day. The denial of the pigeon that it is not a bird but a cat does not mean it is not a bird because when I look at the pigeon all I see is a bird.

Iyu ka ayin nenekwa. Ani ndokwa bama mma!

northerners and westerners consider Urhobos as Igbos, does that make them igbos?

LordAdam:
Do not threaten me with an argument. I am yet to lose an argument on NL, and I am very sure I'll take you to the cleaners here.

Notwithstanding, I have nothing against the Urhobos, I see the Urhobo and Isoko people as cousins.

My main concern is not to blur the lines for selfish reasons. Today, the Isoko people are distinct from the Urhobo people. The Ika are different from the Aniocha people. The Ikwerre are different from the Ibos. The Hausa are different from the Fulani.

I will forgive outsiders blurring the lines. But an Urhobo person should not, especially noting the sensitivity of the matter.

This is about an heritage. Eroding the heritage of the black people was the foundation of slavery and colonization.

Some people on the other end of the world think Africa is a country. Shoot, we have 53 countries. On the outside, Nigerians are one and the same people. Darn, we have over 250 ethnic groups. On the outside, Urhobos and Isokos appear to be the same. Hold that thought, they are not.

I've never seen an Isoko person who when asked of his ethnicity, says he is an Urhobo person. During the 99' Warri crisis, the Isoko people were sympathetic with the Urhobo people. But they did not get into the fight.

Now scurry away, I am not about to spend a working day trying to re-educate an individual who was not taught by his elders to respect the identity of his neighbors.

Isoko is primarily Edoid, not Urhoboid. Stop furnishing your tattered ego thinking you are some father to another ethnic group. I don't see the same mentality from the Bini people who clearly seeded many clans in Urhobo and Isoko territories. Or from the Yorubas who posit that the Oba of Benin is Oduduwa's decendant.

You can never ever ever win me in any argument whether on Nairaland or in person. Maybe you should take a look at my old arguments here. If I have been able to argue with some of Nairaland's most vocal tribalists, then is it you? I'd win you hands down in both the content and form of arguments.

Isoko is a dialect of Urhobo and that is a fact that not even a blind man can deny. Isoko, I agree, is ethnically different from Urhobo due to their right to self determination. Isoko, historically, has always been known as Western Urhobo. It was not until James Otobo, a then member of parliament representing Western Urhobo, moved for the creation of Isoko division out of Urhobo division that Isokos became known as a distinct people in the cluster of Urhobo nationality. This anomaly was spearheaded by Awolowo and his party for reasons best known to them. When we attained independence, Isoko Local Government Area was created from the defunct Isoko Division. When Delta State was finally created, Isoko North and South LGA was zoned to the South and that is how the Isokos started dissociating themselves politically from the Urhobos. If Isoko had been lumped in Delta Central like Okpe, trust me, Isoko would not even have the might, politically or otherwise, to claim individuality as a people.

I love Isoko and I acknowledge their ethnic distinctiveness! However, I MUST assert that Isoko is just a branch of Urhobo! What people dont understand is that Urhobo itself is not a language but a cultural indicator. In Urhobo, there are several languages such as Uvwie, Okpe, Udu, Agbon, Abraka, etc. These languages form the linguistic cluster, which in turn informs the cultural homogeneity known as Urhobo. Isoko belongs to this homogeneity. Saying otherwise will be tantamount to arguing that a Zebra does not belong to the Horse Family because it is not used for transportation!


Like I said, this is an argument YOU CAN NEVER EVER WIN! Especially not with me.

clefstone:
northerners and westerners consider Urhobos as Igbos, does that make them igbos?

Urhobos don't speak an Igbo dialect, so that question is out of order.

Ukwuanis speak an Igbo dialect intelligible to any Igbo man conversant with Igbo Izugbe.

Igbos never had empires that lorded over Ukwuanis.


Ukwuanis have no record or trace of a dead language that became replaced by Igbo language.

Any rational being will deduce that Ukwuani was Igbo speaking right from the very beginning.

Ukwuani could only be of Bini origin, if some segment of the ancient Bini empire were peopled by an Igbo speaking people, from where the Ukwuanis, Ikas, Ikwerres, Ogbas, etc migrated from.

That is the only logical explanation of the " out of Bini" story these Igbo speaking people are currently peddling, in the absence of a dead Bini language in those areas.

LordAdam:
When the blacks in the Americas were told that they were savage beasts without souls. Did they accept it?

Your mistake is that you seem to think that we care about how others see us. People are wrong more times than they admit and no one is truly a mouthpiece for everyone from their ethnicity.

Variety is the spice of life. Deal with it. Unlike many groups, the Isoko people do not have several in-house clans trying to separate themselves.

The Okpe people think that they should be regarded as a different ethnic group. The Uvwie people do not think they should be classes as Urhobo people. Your house is falling, and you want to raise it by entering another person's house.

Most Urhobo people I know are not particular about the Isoko people saying they are different. You should grow up or at least keep your superiority complex to yourself.

You can argue this all you want and use anecdotes drawn from primordial societies, you'd never win! All other ethnic groups in Nigeria know that Isoko is a cultural branch of Urhobo. You speak of other clans breaking free and yes I agree! They have tried and are still trying! What they dont understand is this: which tribe is Urhobo? Answer: None! Urhobo is not a language or a tribe but a common term used to delineate a group of people with an homogenous culture and related languages! Urhobo is a cultural indicator to which Isoko belong!

Even in larger ethnic groups like Yoruba and Igbo, there are factions that claim to be different. i.e. Ikwerres, Ikas, Ukwuanis, for Igbo; Oron, Eket, for Ibibio; Igbomina, Okun, for Yoruba; etc. So the case of Isoko claiming to be different from Urhobo is NOT UNIQUE! They can claim all they want! Nobody can take that away from them but we know better! Isoko is as culturally Urhoboic as Okpe, Uvwie, Eruwa, Udu, etc are! Just because of senatorial arrangements, they believe they'd fare better being distinct than being associated with Urhobo. This, however, has not favoured them as Isokos are calamitously marginalised in Delta South.

Do not spear head divisions where none exists! Just leave your argument at the point that Isoko is ethnically different from Urhobo and I'll skeptically look away! But to argue that they are culturally and linguistically different is something I'd argue even in Heaven and Hell.!

[quote author=LordAdam post=39834411][/quote]And you should know too that I am not a tribalistic person! I am even related to Isoko and Igbo through extended family. I just love facts being sacrosanct and this fact that has become the nucleus of our altercation here is sacrosanct and I'd never give up easily on it. Isoko may be seen as ethnically different and I do not object to that! After all, many Igboid groups are ethnically different! However, arguing on the grounds of culture and/or language is a fallacy that I'd keep correcting! Just because a people speak a shared language differently does not mean they are different! They may claim to be different in exercising their human and collective rights but when it comes to intellectual facts such as this, we must be careful to tell the truth for posterity sake! This is not about supremacy! Urhobo is a minority group and no amount of supremacy can change that fact! That fact is sacrosanct! So also with this fact; Isoko is culturally and linguistically Urhoboid. You want proof? Here are some:
1. The Ovie System
2. The Amity System
3. Greetings
4. Age-Grade System
5. Lexical Items, Morphology and Syntax of Languages
6. The common Cosmological views viz; Orhan, Ancestral Worship, Oghene, Igbe Dance Religion, Ebo, etc
7.Dressing and the fashion of royalty
8. Chieftancy system and the same prime ministerial appellation(Otota) and function
9. Same village quarter division and appellation format
10. Same use of boundary markers via the Oghriki groove
11. Common mythologies such as that of Aziza
12. Same cuisine; Usi and Owho
13. Same Names. i.e. Efe, Iroro, Eta, Okpako, Edafe, etc
14. Same cultural indicators at social functions and gatherings
15. Same facial markers

I can go on and on but I have made my point from the anthropological perspective!!! Whatever you will say to negate this must be done with facts! Facts are sacrosanct!

Radoillo:
Oh, thanks. Although for some reason I am not able go access articles from this journal. Perhaps ome needs to belong to a subscribing university to be able to access their materials. But thanks anyway.

Access it on google cache here:
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:wJypT92vn5IJ:main.journalofwestafricanlanguages.org/index.php/downloads/send/79-volume2702/379-languages-in-contact-the-case-of-edo-and-portuguese+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ng

Ihuomadinihu:
Nah,it's just inferiority complex hovering over Nigerians.

what is that surpose to mean ? one of the reason u people r hated again

fratermathy:
And you should know too that I am not a tribalistic person! I am even related to Isoko and Igbo through extended family. I just love facts being sacrosanct and this fact that has become the nucleus of our altercation here is sacrosanct and I'd never give up easily on it. Isoko may be seen as ethnically different and I do not object to that! After all, many Igboid groups are ethnically different! However, arguing on the grounds of culture and/or language is a fallacy that I'd keep correcting! Just because a people speak a shared language differently does not mean they are different! They may claim to be different in exercising their human and collective rights but when it comes to intellectual facts such as this, we must be careful to tell the truth for posterity sake! This is not about supremacy! Urhobo is a minority group and no amount of supremacy can change that fact! That fact is sacrosanct! So also with this fact; Isoko is culturally and linguistically Urhoboid. You want proof? Here are some:
1. The Ovie System
2. The Amity System
3. Greetings
4. Age-Grade System
5. Lexical Items, Morphology and Syntax of Languages
6. The common Cosmological views viz; Orhan, Ancestral Worship, Oghene, Igbe Dance Religion, Ebo, etc
7.Dressing and the fashion of royalty
8. Chieftancy system and the same prime ministerial appellation(Otota) and function
9. Same village quarter division and appellation format
10. Same use of boundary markers via the Oghriki groove
11. Common mythologies such as that of Aziza
12. Same cuisine; Usi and Owho
13. Same Names. i.e. Efe, Iroro, Eta, Okpako, Edafe, etc
14. Same cultural indicators at social functions and gatherings
15. Same facial markers

I can go on and on but I have made my point from the anthropological perspective!!! Whatever you will say to negate this must be done with facts! Facts are sacrosanct!

LordAm, I think it's a shame when Isoko, Uvwie, Okpe try to assert their so-called independence from mainstream Urhobo. Prior to Awolowo playing his divisive politics Urhobo and Isoko were one inseparable entity. Look at d Yorubas! From Kwara down to Lagos, Ogun westward to Ondo they DO NOT speak one homogeneous language. Heck I claim to understand yoruba but when an Ijebu man is speaking I cannot understand him. Despite the huge dialectical differences you will NEVER hear an Ijebu man say he isn't Yoruba. Or a Kwara yoruba deny his yorubaness. That way the Yoruba can say they are 60m in Nigeria and have the numbers.

As far as I'm concerned, ALL Edoid languages should assert their Bini ness. While I'm Bini (paternally) for all intents and purposes I'm an Urhobo cos that's were my mum's from. Not just any Urhobo but Aragba Orogun where dey switch from Ukwani to Urhobo as though its the same language. I have absolutely no qualms been called any of the three.

fratermathy:
Access it on google cache here:
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:wJypT92vn5IJ:main.journalofwestafricanlanguages.org/index.php/downloads/send/79-volume2702/379-languages-in-contact-the-case-of-edo-and-portuguese+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ng

Thank you! I went through the article, and as it turns out, my suspicion was right. The word was not borrowed from Portuguese, rather the Portuguese learnt if from Edo people. Check it again. 'Igos' was listed in a category numbered 4, and titled 'Loans from Edo to Portuguese'.

I knew something wasn't right. '-go/-gho' is well-attested in many Southern Nigerian Languages and connote 'money', while no such root-word is attested in the Latin-derived languages to which Portuguese belongs.

ceeceeuwa:
Asaba-Ase is in Ndokwa East. They share a boundary with the Isokos, they speak Ukwuani and Isoko.

oh really?but that lang ukwuani sounds igbotic

This is the first time I'm hearing about this your "first ogiso being oba godo" and it seems recently made up. What links do you have to corroborate your claim that this isn't new?

The Edoid have already heard about obalufe, obatala, obalofin among others from Yoruba if they pay attention to the burrowed orisa they worship. Why then do they have just the "oba godo"(newly made up) while Yoruba have many and there is only one oba (crowned by Yoruba)in all the the so called edoid land while Yoruba have obas all over Yoruba land?

Anyway you look at it, 'oba' is exclusively Yoruba! Burrowed words are scantily used by the borrowers!

bigfrancis21:
Oh well then, I still await your rebuttal to the fact that the first Ogiso of Bini was Ogiso Oba godo.

fratermathy:
You can never ever ever win me in any argument whether on Nairaland or in person. Maybe you should take a look at my old arguments here. If I have been able to argue with some of Nairaland's most vocal tribalists, then is it you? I'd win you hands down in both the content and form of arguments.

Isoko is a dialect of Urhobo and that is a fact that not even a blind man can deny. Isoko, I agree, is ethnically different from Urhobo due to their right to self determination. Isoko, historically, has always been known as Western Urhobo. It was not until James Otobo, a then member of parliament representing Western Urhobo, moved for the creation of Isoko division out of Urhobo division that Isokos became known as a distinct people in the cluster of Urhobo nationality. This anomaly was spearheaded by Awolowo and the NCNC for reasons best known to them. When we attained independence, Isoko Local Government Area was created from the defunct Isoko Division. When Delta State was finally created, Isoko North and South LGA was zoned to the South and that is how the Isokos started dissociating themselves politically from the Urhobos. If Isoko had been lumped in Delta Central like Okpe, trust me, Isoko would not even have the might, politically or otherwise, to claim individuality as a people.

I love Isoko and I acknowledge their ethnic distinctiveness! However, I MUST assert that Isoko is just a branch of Urhobo! What people dont understand is that Urhobo itself is not a language but a cultural indicator. In Urhobo, there are several languages such as Uvwie, Okpe, Udu, Agbon, Abraka, etc. These languages form the linguistic cluster, which in turn informs the cultural homogeneity known as Urhobo. Isoko belongs to this homogeneity. Saying otherwise will be tantamount to arguing that a Zebra does not belong to the Horse Family because it is not used for transportation!


Like I said, this is an argument YOU CAN NEVER EVER WIN! Especially not with me.

Read the Isoko part of this webpage - http://ihuanedo.ning.com/m/group/discussion?id=2971192%3ATopic%3A130200

Point to note: "The only Isoko clan that migrated from Urhoboland is the Olomoro clan which descended from Olomu clan in Ughelli South LGA about 1750-1800 AD."

In fact, more Urhobo people descended from Isoko people than Isoko people from Urhobo people. It is safe to say that Urhobo is more Isokoid than Isoko is Urhoboid.

So Isoko is not a dialect of Urhobo. The Isoko people are very peaceful and never waged war within themselves in an almost 1000 year period. They extended this peaceful co-existence to their Urhobo and Ukwani neighbors. And even welcomed migrants from Igbos in present DAY Anambra. The dialect of Isoko spoken in Igbide bear more similarity to traditional Isoko than Igbo. What does that tell you?

The Isoko ancestors shared lands, culture, and even language with their neighbors. The Urhobo could not so with their Itsekiri neighbors and like yourself look to clump the Isokos under the Urhobo tag.

The Bakassi Peninsula is in current day Cameroon. In time past, that region fell under Nigeria, now do we call those currently living there as Nigerians or those from Cameroon?

Bendel state was under the defunct western region, should the Bini and Urhobo people be called western Nigerians under the odua Republic, or Niger Deltans?

The Eastern Urhobo Native Authority is a name tagged on a region, not the prevailing identity of the people under the tag. Accordingly, the Richards constitution called for both primary groups, the Isoko and Urhobo to send a candidate each to the defunct regional western assembly.

You fail to see why Isoko was not lumped into Urhoboland. It is because we are distinct from the Urhobos.

It is an affirmative fact that Isoko is not a branch of Urhobo. The Ancestors of 94% of Isoko clans came to present day Isoko land direct from the old Bini empire. 4% came from other regions, Anambra, Baylesa, and maybe Port Harcourt. The remaining 2% came from Urhoboland. How then can any sane person say Isoko people are Urhobo people? We are Edoid not Urhoboid.

Isoko is not a dialect of Urhobo. For heaven's sake, it is a language with its own dialects.

Putting ego aside, you let emotion cloud your reasoning. It is why you are no match for my intelligent prowess.

airsaylongcon:
LordAm, I think it's a shame when Isoko, Uvwie, Okpe try to assert their so-called independence from mainstream Urhobo. Prior to Awolowo playing his divisive politics Urhobo and Isoko were one inseparable entity. Look at d Yorubas! From Kwara down to Lagos, Ogun westward to Ondo they DO NOT speak one homogeneous language. Heck I claim to understand yoruba but when an Ijebu man is speaking I cannot understand him. Despite the huge dialectical differences you will NEVER hear an Ijebu man say he isn't Yoruba. Or a Kwara yoruba deny his yorubaness. That way the Yoruba can say they are 60m in Nigeria and have the numbers.

As far as I'm concerned, ALL Edoid languages should assert their Bini ness. While I'm Bini (paternally) for all intents and purposes I'm an Urhobo cos that's were my mum's from. Not just any Urhobo but Aragba Orogun where dey switch from Ukwani to Urhobo as though its the same language. I have absolutely no qualms been called any of the three.

That is not your call to make. I cannot accept your unintelligent consensus because of your myopic tendencies. The Yoruba people had a very inclusive past. They have a rich heritage in the Old Oyo empire that at a point extended to present Benin Republic. They accept they are Yoruba because their unity has been entrenched by a firm monarchy.

It is very different in the Urhobo and Isoko sense. Both groups were not lorded over by the Bini empire. The ancestors of the Isoko people left the old Bini empire because of the negative shenanigans of the Bini empire. It will be foolhardy and equivalent to me spitting on their graves to swallow their vomits. Bini-ness or whatever you call it does not exist.

I will never plead allegiance to the Bini monarch. It is equivalent to Americans pleading allegiance to the British Queen. We only accept our past heritage and leave it as that.

Goodboiy:
Pig is Esi why Isoko call it Ezi

p.o.c isoko dnt call it Ezi but Esi,Ezi is spirit in Isoko cheers

fratermathy:
You can argue this all you want and use anecdotes drawn from primordial societies, you'd never win! All other ethnic groups in Nigeria know that Isoko is a cultural branch of Urhobo. You speak of other clans breaking free and yes I agree! They have tried and are still trying! What they dont understand is this: which tribe is Urhobo? Answer: None! Urhobo is not a language or a tribe but a common term used to delineate a group of people with an homogenous culture and related languages! Urhobo is a cultural indicator to which Isoko belong!

Even in larger ethnic groups like Yoruba and Igbo, there are factions that claim to be different. i.e. Ikwerres, Ikas, Ukwuanis, for Igbo; Oron, Eket, for Ibibio; Igbomina, Okun, for Yoruba; etc. So the case of Isoko claiming to be different from Urhobo is NOT UNIQUE! They can claim all they want! Nobody can take that away from them but we know better! Isoko is as culturally Urhoboic as Okpe, Uvwie, Eruwa, Udu, etc are! Just because of senatorial arrangements, they believe they'd fare better being distinct than being associated with Urhobo. This, however, has not favoured them as Isokos are calamitously marginalised in Delta South.

Do not spear head divisions where none exists! Just leave your argument at the point that Isoko is ethnically different from Urhobo and I'll skeptically look away! But to argue that they are culturally and linguistically different is something I'd argue even in Heaven and Hell.!

Isoko has similarities with Urhobo in many aspects. However, they are different in ethnicity, language, and culture. I ain't arguing with you, because we have our own land, we are in a different Senatorial district, we have our own caste system, and have our own indigenous organizations. We are not Biafra trying to leave Nigeria, we are the North Cameroons that has left the defunct region of Nigeria and North Cameroon.

If you can't deal with it, do whatever you want. You can't change history. And on that note, I have placed your contention in a coffin and nailed it shut. Whenever I see any post on this forum from you or someone sharing your ideology, you can be sure that I will retort the lie till it gets blown out of oblivion.

LordAdam:
Read the Isoko part of this webpage - http://ihuanedo.ning.com/m/group/discussion?id=2971192%3ATopic%3A130200

Point to note: "The only Isoko clan that migrated from Urhoboland is the Olomoro clan which descended from Olomu clan in Ughelli South LGA about 1750-1800 AD."

In fact, more Urhobo people descended from Isoko people than Isoko people from Urhobo people. It is safe to say that Urhobo is more Isokoid than Isoko is Urhoboid.

So Isoko is not a dialect of Urhobo. The Isoko people are very peaceful and never waged war within themselves in an almost 1000 year period. They extended this peaceful co-existence to their Urhobo and Ukwani neighbors. And even welcomed migrants from Igbos in present DAY Anambra. The dialect of Isoko spoken in Igbide bear more similarity to traditional Isoko than Igbo. What does that tell you?

The Isoko ancestors shared lands, culture, and even language with their neighbors. The Urhobo could not so with their Itsekiri neighbors and like yourself look to clump the Isokos under the Urhobo tag.

The Bakassi Peninsula is in current day Cameroon. In time past, that region fell under Nigeria, now do we call those currently living there as Nigerians or those from Cameroon?

Bender state was under the defunct western region, should the Bini and Urhobo people be called western Nigerians under the odua Republic, or Niger Deltans?

The Eastern Urhobo Native Authority is a name tagged on a region, not the prevailing identity of the people under the tag. Accordingly, the Richards constitution called for both primary groups, the Isoko and Urhobo to send a candidate each to the defunct regional western assembly.

You fail to see why Isoko was not lumped into Urhoboland. It is because we are distinct from the Urhobos.

It is an affirmative fact that Isoko is not a branch of Urhobo. The Ancestors of 94% of Isoko clans came to present day Isoko land direct from the old Bini empire. 4% came from other regions, Anambra, Bayless, and maybe Port Harcourt. The remaining 2% came from Urhoboland. How then can any sane person say Isoko people are Urhobo people? We are Edoid not Urhoboid.

Isoko is not a dialect of Urhobo. For heaven's sake, it is a language with its own dialects.

Putting ego aside, you let emotion cloud your reasoning. It is why you are no match for my intelligent prowess.

pls sir are u an isoko man?

LordAdam:
That is not your call to make. I cannot accept your unintelligent consensus because of your myopic tendencies. The Yoruba people had a very inclusive past. They have a rich heritage in the Old Oyo empire that at a point extended to present Benin Republic. They accept they are Yoruba because their unity has been entrenched by a firm monarchy.

It is very different in the Urhobo and Isoko sense. Both groups were not lorded over by the Bini empire. The ancestors of the Isoko people left the old Bini empire because of the negative shenanigans of the Bini empire. It will be foolhardy and equivalent to me spitting on their graves to swallow their vomits. Bini-ness or whatever you call it does not exist.

I will never plead allegiance to the Bini monarch. It is equivalent to Americans pleading allegiance to the British Queen. We only accept our past heritage and leave it as that.

Your are free to wallow in whatever it is you choose. No matter how large Isoko becomes they are Still the underlings of you-know-who

fratermathy:
And you should know too that I am not a tribalistic person! I am even related to Isoko and Igbo through extended family. I just love facts being sacrosanct and this fact that has become the nucleus of our altercation here is sacrosanct and I'd never give up easily on it. Isoko may be seen as ethnically different and I do not object to that! After all, many Igboid groups are ethnically different! However, arguing on the grounds of culture and/or language is a fallacy that I'd keep correcting! Just because a people speak a shared language differently does not mean they are different! They may claim to be different in exercising their human and collective rights but when it comes to intellectual facts such as this, we must be careful to tell the truth for posterity sake! This is not about supremacy! Urhobo is a minority group and no amount of supremacy can change that fact! That fact is sacrosanct! So also with this fact; Isoko is culturally and linguistically Urhoboid. You want proof? Here are some:
1. The Ovie System
2. The Amity System
3. Greetings
4. Age-Grade System
5. Lexical Items, Morphology and Syntax of Languages
6. The common Cosmological views viz; Orhan, Ancestral Worship, Oghene, Igbe Dance Religion, Ebo, etc
7.Dressing and the fashion of royalty
8. Chieftancy system and the same prime ministerial appellation(Otota) and function
9. Same village quarter division and appellation format
10. Same use of boundary markers via the Oghriki groove
11. Common mythologies such as that of Aziza
12. Same cuisine; Usi and Owho
13. Same Names. i.e. Efe, Iroro, Eta, Okpako, Edafe, etc
14. Same cultural indicators at social functions and gatherings
15. Same facial markers

I can go on and on but I have made my point from the anthropological perspective!!! Whatever you will say to negate this must be done with facts! Facts are sacrosanct!

All you've just proved is that the Isoko people are good neighbors.

And here is a definition of "ethnic" according to Merriam Webster's dictionary - http://i.word.com/idictionary/ethnic[1]

: of or relating to races or large groups of people who have the same customs, religion, origin, etc.

: associated with or belonging to a particular race or group of people who have a culture that is different from the main culture of a country

So when you say Isoko is ethnically different from Urhobo but culturally and linguistically the same, I begin to question your educational standing.

If you accept that the Isokos are ethnically different from the Urhobos, then by the definition, you agree to my position. This my good friend is SACROSANT.

#Stillundefeated.

Now scamper away, you've lost this one.

Again, I've got nothing against the Urhobos. But I will not tolerate your flagrant disregard of history and friendly ties between both people.

airsaylongcon:
Your are free to wallow in whatever it is you choose. No matter how large Isoko becomes they are Still the underlings of you-know-who

Agreed. The blacks in general are still underlings of the white man. So in Asa's voice, "the you-know-who are still jail occupants."

I have a duty to my descendants to preserve the heritage left to me by my ancestors. That heritage is the identity of the Isoko people that will not be sacrificed for any reason.

menabae:
pls sir are u an isoko man?

Yes.