₦airaland Forum

Nihilist:
Nobody ever claimed that our midfield is the best. After all, I posted last summer how the Matic-Fabregas pivot was the most dribbled past pairing in the league...and we still won the flipping thing.

What I, in particular, will never accept that our midfield was the main cause of our terrible slump pre-Hiddink. I had to refuse and reject that assertion and the accompanying implication that we had the 16th best midfield in the EPL because that was a big fat lie...

Correlation does not equal Causation.

Or how do you explain the small fact that Matic, the mascot of the 'Midfield Enthusiasts' here was\is actually terrible in the first half of the season?

Do you honestly believe that the turnaround in our team's fortunes is due to Hiddink?

Jose got sacked on Friday and Gus started on Monday- Yet a team that couldn't buy a win previously beat Sunderland by 2 goals on Saturday.

Abi you think 4-5 weeks is enough to change almost 3 years of Jose's tactics?

See Costa that didn't know where the post was before now playing like a striker again.

Omo lets move on with the team and not deceive ourselves.

Even that serial German false prophet has slightly shifted his stance from 'Midfield is the problem' to 'Tactics was the problem'

You know I have been proven right with most of my assertion while you have been proven wrong with most of yours

1. While we both agreed some of the players have been underperforming, I focused on Matic and my customer Hazard, You said it was Ivanovic, Fabregas and possibly Costa.

In the past 3 games it has been shown that Matic is one of the weakest link in the team. He still remains the only substitute to be removed this season and also was benched for 87mins last Saturday in Chelseas most comfortable win while his replacement Mikel- a man most fans said was the worst midfielder bossed the middle. Doing the basic job a midfielder was supposed to do.
Ivanovic has remained a stable part of the defence that have gone 2 games without conceding, Fabregas is now back to throwing Fabregas like passes and Costa is back to playing like a striker scoring in 2 games as many as he did in 13 games under Mourinho

2. I believe the slight turnaround was largely due to Hindick. I believe with Mourinho you would have lost at least 2 of the last 4 games. Claiming "was it not the same tactics that won last yr is short sighted", Coaches all over react to tactics and you have to keep evolving to stay on top. It was the same tactics, that won Klopp 2 Bundesliga, that made him finish 2nd twice. It was that same tactics that almost got him relegated before he left Dortmund. Another coach came and they have posted one of their best first half performance. It was the same tactics that almost won LvG the treble in 2010 that got him sacked 9months later by the same club and same players. Your tactics have to be updated regularly

3. I do not believe the Chelsea midfield is so bad that you were 16th on the table. I dont believe 15 teams have better players or better midfields than Chelsea. The same way why this time last season Dortmund was 18th on the table, I didnt believe their players were the worst in the league. They just needed a tweak in tactics and they would be fine.

4. Mourinho determination to make everyone an enemy was also one of the major reasons for the fall. The tactics are abrasive to outsiders and draining to the players. All the fighting the referees fighting the FA, fighting opposition coach plus media can only last so long

All of a sudden, Mikel is the hottest-priced property in Europe....lung may it continue

raumdeuter:
Its known that most Chelsea fans are plastic to start with

It'z a lie....all u hear from most of them is;
I have being a Chelsh-it fan for close to 20 yrs; OR
I have been following Chelsh-it before the cum-ing of Abramhovic or Mourinho----so many lies that wud make Devil or Lie Moh'd repent

raumdeuter:
Some of you are even hoping Chelsea keeps losing so that your Mourinho can be vindicated

There are also @Utd fanz fasting, praying & hoping LVG wud lose so as to get tha boot for their in-cum.ing messiah ----Mourinho

Having read Hiddink's comments about Mikel, barring injury or suspension, it looks like Matic will spend the rest of the season on the bench.

And Mikel is unbeaten under Hiddink? Wow

raumdeuter:
You know I have been proven right with most of my assertion while you have been proven wrong with most of yours

1. While we both agreed some of the players have been underperforming, I focused on Matic and my customer Hazard, You said it was Ivanovic, Fabregas and possibly Costa.

In the past 3 games it has been shown that Matic is one of the weakest link in the team. He still remains the only substitute to be removed this season and also was benched for 87mins last Saturday in Chelseas most comfortable win while his replacement Mikel- a man most fans said was the worst midfielder bossed the middle. Doing the basic job a midfielder was supposed to do.
Ivanovic has remained a stable part of the defence that have gone 2 games without conceding, Fabregas is now back to throwing Fabregas like passes and Costa is back to playing like a striker scoring in 2 games as many as he did in 13 games under Mourinho

2. I believe the slight turnaround was largely due to Hindick. I believe with Mourinho you would have lost at least 2 of the last 4 games. Claiming "was it not the same tactics that won last yr is short sighted", Coaches all over react to tactics and you have to keep evolving to stay on top. It was the same tactics, that won Klopp 2 Bundesliga, that made him finish 2nd twice. It was that same tactics that almost got him relegated before he left Dortmund. Another coach came and they have posted one of their best first half performance. It was the same tactics that almost won LvG the treble in 2010 that got him sacked 9months later by the same club and same players. Your tactics have to be updated regularly

3. I do not believe the Chelsea midfield is so bad that you were 16th on the table. I dont believe 15 teams have better players or better midfields than Chelsea. The same way why this time last season Dortmund was 18th on the table, I didnt believe their players were the worst in the league. They just needed a tweak in tactics and they would be fine.

4. Mourinho determination to make everyone an enemy was also one of the major reasons for the fall. The tactics are abrasive to outsiders and draining to the players. All the fighting the referees fighting the FA, fighting opposition coach plus media can only last so long

E fe paro ni o... E fe, E fe paro ni o...Skibbo!


But Ivanovic Fabregas and Costa were underperforming abi kini eyin so boda?

Ivanovic is still underperforming sef, only that there is no alternative RB available to challenge him.

Your argument that time was that the midfield , with Matic in particular was not protecting the defence, when statistics showed that Chelsea was conceding more chances down the right flank than any other team in the league.

Jose's rashness wasn't draining. The players weren't tired. They were in open conflict. The manager spoke publicly about rats in the team. One player allegedly claimed to prefer to lose instead of win for Jose. Another player threw a bib at his manager on TV.

I agree that tactics have to be tweaked and changed, but i would imagine that the kind of changes required to pull a team out of a relegation battle requires time to implement.

The team were already looking different less than 24 hours after Jose bit the bullet. That's why I felt confident enough to predict that we would start playing well again and dared anyone to quote me.

4-5 weeks is too quick for this kind of turnaround. Klopp and Remi Garde are coaches that came in after season start but are struggling to get it together. Allardyce too

But Huddink that didn't even use to remember go to team meetings with Netherlands and led them to a disastrous Euro 2016 qualification campaign, is suddenly this messiah, this amalgam of Cryuff, Midas, and Buddha, that could change things with immediate results?

I don't want to keep going on about this matter. My last post on this.

Nihilist:
But Huddink that didn't even use to remember go to team meetings with Netherlands and led them to a disastrous Euro 2016 qualification campaign, is suddenly this messiah, this amalgam of Cryuff, Midas, and Buddha, that could change things with immediate results?

I don't want to keep going on about this matter. My last post on this.

You made a good point, but i will disagree with your previous point that mou should have been left to continue. Chelsea is a big club and when its manager fails to manage his wards who he called the betrayers, well, and keeps churning out poor results up and down no serious club owner would stick to him cos of the previous season's feat. mou has done well for us, no doubt. This season he left us in a bad position which would have been worse if he continues. That's a fact. Chelsea is still trying to recover now and we could see the players are now enjoying the game due to a change in approach as directed by the coach. Hiddink had done it in the past and i believe he would do a good job this term too.
When you see a defending champion playing conservative football against the likes of bournemouth then there is big problem. When a coach could nt see the weak links in his team and still believed in luck and waiting for opponents to make mistakes before winning games then he has lost that midas touch. One thing one can easily discover in the chelsea's game now is sense of urgency in defending straight from the moment possession is lost and swift transition to attack when it is gained. Chelsea should not be sitting deep against minnows and waiting for willian to score goals from set-pieces. When we were having issues as regards our players, mou kept on telling us no new additions this january. I am a mourinho's fan but my loyalty to chelsea would n't let me call black, white. Mou's 3rd season syndrome would n't have got us europa league ticket, let alone ucl slot.

I believe with Mourinho you would have lost at least 2 of the last 4 games

Oga raumudeen can now see the future and project things.

When i said there was nothing to suggest a team that was on fire in the first half of a german league season would not have won the treble they won that season, you come here dey do falla-follo, ranting upandan.

Now you get wisdom to predict that mourinho would have lost 2 of the last 4 games in charge. Your highness, i salute o.

airmark:
You made a good point, but i will disagree with your previous point that mou should have been left to continue. Chelsea is a big club and when its manager fails to manage his wards who he called the betrayers, well, and keeps churning out poor results up and down no serious club owner would stick to him cos of the previous season's feat. mou has done well for us, no doubt. This season he left us in a bad position which would have been worse if he continues. That's a fact. Chelsea is still trying to recover now and we could see the players are now enjoying the game due to a change in approach as directed by the coach. Hiddink had done it in the past and i believe he would do a good job this term too.
When you see a defending champion playing conservative football against the likes of bournemouth then there is big problem. When a coach could nt see the weak links in his team and still believed in luck and waiting for opponents to make mistakes before winning games then he has lost that midas touch. One thing one can easily discover in the chelsea's game now is sense of urgency in defending straight from the moment possession is lost and swift transition to attack when it is gained. Chelsea should not be sitting deep against minnows and waiting for willian to score goals from set-pieces. When we were having issues as regards our players, mou kept on telling us no new additions this january. I am a mourinho's fan but my loyalty to chelsea would n't let me call black, white. Mou's 3rd season syndrome would n't have got us europa league ticket, let alone ucl slot.

Conservative footy against bournemouth you say
If not for Costa being a pant that day, the story could have been quite different. Hazard too was extremely useless that day.

The problem with groupthink is that it can sometimes affect memory. Like how you remember conservative football v Bournemouth. Or how some fans now remember how Jose was a wack tactician.

Being my guy, I know the one that really pained you was that 'no additions yarns'. I think that it should have been obvious to you that Jose was only trying to encourage his boys....

Anyway, make we go sign that Wijnaldum sharply. Na my own main hope be that...

Nihilist:
Conservative footy against bournemouth you say
If not for Costa being a pant that day, the story could have been quite different. Hazard too was extremely useless that day.

The problem with groupthink is that it can sometimes affect memory. Like how you remember conservative football v Bournemouth. Or how some fans now remember how Jose was a wack tactician.

Being my guy, I know the one that really pained you was that 'no additions yarns'. I think that it should have been obvious to you that Jose was only trying to encourage his boys....

Anyway, make we go sign that Wijnaldum sharply. Na my own main hope be that...

Against Bournemouth we had 6 shots on target they had 5, that speaks volume. Last season a team like Bournemouth would hardly smell our box 18 . Let's leave that cos I don't count playing back passes, short passes and sideway passes that we mostly did in that match as anything. 43% of Bournemouth's passes were forward passes while ours was 36 % . I just thank God mou has left. It's a new dawn and I believe hiddink would not be afraid to make crucial decisions unlike mou. You don't pamper betrayers you put them where they belong. Wijnaldum will be good inclusion and we can use him in ucl.

Nihilist:
E fe paro ni o... E fe, E fe paro ni o...Skibbo!


But Ivanovic Fabregas and Costa were underperforming abi kini eyin so boda?

Ivanovic is still underperforming sef, only that there is no alternative RB available to challenge him.

Your argument that time was that the midfield , with Matic in particular was not protecting the defence, when statistics showed that Chelsea was conceding more chances down the right flank than any other team in the league.

Jose's rashness wasn't draining. The players weren't tired. They were in open conflict. The manager spoke publicly about rats in the team. One player allegedly claimed to prefer to lose instead of win for Jose. Another player threw a bib at his manager on TV.

I agree that tactics have to be tweaked and changed, but i would imagine that the kind of changes required to pull a team out of a relegation battle requires time to implement.

The team were already looking different less than 24 hours after Jose bit the bullet. That's why I felt confident enough to predict that we would start playing well again and dared anyone to quote me.

4-5 weeks is too quick for this kind of turnaround. Klopp and Remi Garde are coaches that came in after season start but are struggling to get it together. Allardyce too

But Huddink that didn't even use to remember go to team meetings with Netherlands and led them to a disastrous Euro 2016 qualification campaign, is suddenly this messiah, this amalgam of Cryuff, Midas, and Buddha, that could change things with immediate results?

I don't want to keep going on about this matter. My last post on this.

Ivanovic like I told you and mourinho proved during Iva's injury isnt the only available RB. Azpi and Zouma have played and can play as RB. Hiddink came and still stuck with Ivanovic while dropping Matic like a bad habit

My argument was that Matic wasnt protecting the defence and I have been vindicated by the 2 coaches. Mourinho who benched him, subbed him in and out in the same game and Hiddink who outrightly benched him last Saturday for a mediocre Mikel

You said the rashness wasn't draining yet in the same sentence said the players were in open conflict with him. What would make the players turn on him if not for his rashness? Or do you have it on record that he stole all their wives?

Tactics that pull teams from relegation can be implemented within 5 days

A simple pushing the back 4 further ahead can change the play pattern or simply telling the wide players to either stick to the line or cut in and allow full backs man the line. Some coaches change tactics 3 times in one game yet you are telling us it would take 4 months to change Chelseas tactics. Its like saying it would take 4 months to change LvG sterile possesion into something productive.

Some of these players in the course of their career have played 5 different tactics so can seamlessly shift from one to the other

Have you considered the players Klopp Garde or Allardyce inherited? 2 things make a team players and coaches. Have you concluded that Liverpool players are better than they are playing?

Chelsea players have shown in recebnt times that they are some of the best collection in the league based on talent yet this same group cant beat Bournemouth, Newcastle or Stoke

Nihilist:
Our positions on this issue have always been very similar to a certain point.

We both believe that Jose was central to the downturn in our clubs fortune. And we both believe that Midfield is 'A' problem but not 'THE' problem.

Where we differ is the reason 'WHY' Jose is central to our poor showing.

You say it's tactical, and that Jose shackled the team in his role as the Anti-football Deity that Tony Pulis can only aspire to be.

This is where I, and the facts, disagree with you. Like I keep reminding you, only 1 team in the league scored more than us last season, and we averaged 57% possession over the course of the season.

We dismantled teams in highscoring games, and our main striker was around the top of the goal scorers chart, our midfielder topped the assist chart, and our winger was voted player of the season. These facts are NOT consistent with an argument that Chelsea played a rigid shackled kind of footy.

Your next argument is that Jose's tantrums and abrasive behaviour rubbed the players and staff up the wrong way - (I agree with this) - which in turn created a negative atmosphere in the dressing room - (I also agree with this)- and so Jose had to go(This is where I disagree)

My principle is that the vast majority of working people have worked or still work under managers they don't necessarily like. That doesn't have to stop them from being professional though.

These boys literally stopped playing well because the don't like their manager, and the unique combination of being both staff and saleable assets, meant that it was easier to sack the manager than sack the players.

Coaches like Jose with the almost cast iron guarantee of delivering trophies are in short supply.

Look at Gary Neville and his struggles at Valencia(last nights game excluded). He is beginning to see the difference between a Touchscreen and the Touchline.

I feel we should have kept Jose for his pedigree, to send a message to the dissenting players, and to set an example for the future.

But e don happen. Wetin man go do? I can only get behind my team and continue to support them. But I will do so in the knowledge that once these boys don't like Hiddink's replacement, we will be back to square 1...

This is how I see things. To accept that Tactics were a major issue, you have to stop summarising our performance last season and instead dissect what actually on a monthly basis where necessary.

We started out the season flying, after acquiring the signings of Costa and Fab. We were playing some delightful football and we scored a lot of goals. We both agree up to this point. After this point in history, this is how it turned out.

That level of performance did not carry on over the season.

You like to make reference to number of goals as a measure of the overall success. The actual fact is that as at 19 games (half way in), we had already scored 41 goals of the total 73 we scored. We had won 14, drawn only 4, lost 1 and conceded only 14 goals.

By the end of the season we had scored 73 goals but these are the interesting facts. 5 of the last 32 goals were scored in one game against a poor and toothless Swansea side. As at the end, we lost 2 more games than we lost in first 19, drawn 5 games in the last 19 and conceded 18 goals in the last 19. 4 more than in the first. And there were no major injuries to key players.

So no, the facts don't support your position.

The turning point was at Spurs when we lost 5-3. Jose, one who was only attempting expansive football at the request of Roman, found a way out of it by expressing that the 'lack of control' - i.e. keeping things tight - was what led to the massive defeat. I think he further expressed how a 6-3 win was more of bad win for him than a 1-0 win. Those who know him well (folks like me) knew from then on, it was bye-bye expansive football.

And revert he did. The slimy, boring football came back in. Slims win were the order of the day. 3pts were very laboured and players were told to defend first before attack. At the end of many of those games, I commented on how predictable we were and how we lacked a method of attack besides giving it to Hazard. These comments did not come out of empty air. It became so bad, we were parking the bus against a 10 man PSG side.


That horrible play continued into the Pre-Season again and I made my point on July 25th 2015

"Conclusions drawn from pre-season games are mostly useless. One conclusion is true though. We are going to struggle in Europe this season again. The same problems exist. We have no midfield and this is actually all our first choice midfielders playing.
The transition of play through the middle is non-existent. Our forward play comes only through the wings and only through Hazard on the wing. Once Hazard is marked out, our attack is dead".


The key thing to note is "The same problems exist". . . I was already pointing to our tactics and set-up as being a major problem as at July and referencing that they still "exist", meaning we have carried on the rubbish into the new year. Even Jose alluded to this in PS stating that this season we were going to try something different as we were becoming stale and predictable.

Fast forward to this season, reports have it that some senior players went to meet Jose and requested that we tried a more open and attacking approach to games rather than the ultra defensive and conservative approach. But you know how it turned out.

This for me, is where he lost the players. That moment when the players started to question the methods. It means they no longer shared the belief in his football. This is a team that just won the league. That's because even the players knew and they support my view that as opposed to the summary normally given about last season, we actually stumbled to the finish line. If this was not the case, they won't be requesting to try something different. We were boring, predictable and stale and we lacked any tactical imposition on inferior opponents. Not even 15 Messis will be motivated under such circumstance. This is why I insist, that tactics were the root cause of the problems.


I share with you what Legend Didier Drogba himself said in his book about about Jose . . .


"Things often come in three-year cycles - we'd arrived at the end of such a cycle," Drogba wrote in his autobiography Commitment. "By the start of the fourth season that Jose had been in charge, I think we had started to reach a point where it was harder for his message to get through."We wanted to hear it, we tried but somehow we had lost a little bit of what made us special."



This is coming from one of the many players whose careers benefited hugely from Jose's style. They became bored of it. They wanted something new. They wanted a revision, a change of TACTICS!. Fast forward to 2015. New players are asking again.

However, Jose is allergic to expansive football. He hates losing control. But he was about to lose more than control of the game, he was about to lose the players. He needed to either concede to them and/or motivate them to understanding why they needed to play his way. But as Drogba said, you jut stop listening. You try but you cannot. Unfortunately, he is only a motivator of players when they are on top. When they dip, he either doesn't know how to motivate them or doesn't care, as stated by Demba Ba.


"He's not someone who is there to give confidence to his players. He is there to get what he can out of his players. He expects you to motivate yourself. If you lack confidence, all he does is put you on the bench."



This is the point of view of his own players. I am not making anything up. Fellas need to open their eyes. This is why he doesn't stay beyond 2/3 years anywhere.

And to those asking no be the same tactics wey win last year, Dayo has answered the question. What happened to the same tactics Klopp intended to apply for the third year running? LvG?

Tactics get stale, old, found out and evolution is the only thing that keep you on top. So yes, this my own explanation on why tactics were the real problem that led to Jose's downfall.

I just realised its soo easy to coach Real Madrid..........especially with defensive tactics......

Madrid won't win that league till Messi retires, unless they appoint Ramdueter, Chelseafan1,Hesben and co as Coaching staffs

bigkesh:
I just realised its soo easy to coach Real Madrid..........especially with defensive tactics......

Madrid won't win that league till Messi retires, unless they appoint Ramdueter, Chelseafan1,Hesben and co as Coaching staffs

Did you just intentionally typed RAM?

lalaboi:
Oga raumudeen can now see the future and project things.

When i said there was nothing to suggest a team that was on fire in the first half of a german league season would not have won the treble they won that season, you come here dey do falla-follo, ranting upandan.

Now you get wisdom to predict that mourinho would have lost 2 of the last 4 games in charge. Your highness, i salute o.

How many trebles have bayern won before that?

Mourinho has lost more games than he has won so its only logical that the trend would continue

As at December 2012 when pep was hired Bayern havent won the CL for 12 seasons yet we are to believe they would go against the grain and win the treble?

raumdeuter:
How many trebles have bayern won before that?

Mourinho has lost more games than he has won so its only logical that the trend would continue

As at December 2012 when pep was hired Bayern havent won the CL for 12 seasons yet we are to believe they would go against the grain and win the treble?

Who ended the Barren UCL run? Pep?

Nateevs

Your post is long and I dont want to quote it all for fear of spambot, so I will respond to a selection of what I think were your key statements. I think that this will be my last response on this issue, not out of disrespect, but because the topic is growing a bit stale and I don't want us to bore other posters.

You like to make reference to number of goals as a measure of the overall success. The actual fact is that as at 19 games (half way in), we had already scored 41 goals of the total 73 we scored. We had won 14, drawn only 4, lost 1 and conceded only 14 goals.

By the end of the season we had scored 73 goals but these are the interesting facts. 5 of the last 32 goals were scored in one game against a poor and toothless Swansea side. As at the end, we lost 2 more games than we lost in first 19, drawn 5 games in the last 19 and conceded 18 goals in the last 19. 4 more than in the first. And there were no major injuries to key players.

First 19 games: W14 D4 L1
Last 19 games: W12 D5 L2

Is that really such a bad difference? Especially after international games, League Cup campaign, and UCL campaign as well? The difference between first 19 and last 19 games is 1 draw and 1 loss. Jose's tactics were really stale

So no, the facts don't support your position.

The turning point was at Spurs when we lost 5-3. Jose, one who was only attempting expansive football at the request of Roman, found a way out of it by expressing that the 'lack of control' - i.e. keeping things tight - was what led to the massive defeat. I think he further expressed how a 6-3 win was more of bad win for him than a 1-0 win. Those who know him well (folks like me) knew from then on, it was bye-bye expansive football.

And revert he did. The slimy, boring football came back in. Slims win were the order of the day.

Chelsea scored the opening goal 28 times last season (more than any other team), losing just once. Our record when leading at half-time read: P18, W17, D1, L0...

I'll let the significance of those stats sink in.

We scored first in 74% of our games last season...and did not lose a single match in which we led at half-time..

Fast forward to this season, reports have it that some senior players went to meet Jose and requested that we tried a more open and attacking approach to games rather than the ultra defensive and conservative approach. But you know how it turned out.

I heard that it was Fabregas(the reports I read suggest Fabregas Alone) who went to make that request. But we all saw the same Fabregas constantly misplacing short passes to players only 2 yards away from him. The same Fabregas many suspect was a rat. Or how can you reconcile Fabregas from yesterday to the one we've seen so far? Do you think Jose instructs his players to give the ball away at every opportunity?

I share with you what Legend Didier Drogba himself said in his book about about Jose . . .


"Things often come in three-year cycles - we'd arrived at the end of such a cycle," Drogba wrote in his autobiography Commitment. "By the start of the fourth season that Jose had been in charge, I think we had started to reach a point where it was harder for his message to get through."We wanted to hear it, we tried but somehow we had lost a little bit of what made us special."

This statement and the one by Demba Ba irk me greatly. They irritate me so much. I work hard for my money. I cannot stop pushing myself to keep working as best as I can because I know my livelihood and that of my family depends on it. That statement you read is the most unprofessional admission I have ever had the misfortune of reading.

Imagine this, a player, openly admitting that he wasn't listening to his manager because he was bored. Or the other one that was expecting Jose to function as his personal psychologist. I don't see how you can blame Jose for a player who admits that he wasn't listening. Is that not the ultimate height a player power? When a player refuses to listen to his manager in the knowledge that his own job is secure and the manager fired?

Shebi Benitez has been fired today. Ronaldo and Bale in a game where Madrid registered only 3 shots on target. Wetin manager wan talk again? Abi is it the manager that will tell that type of player how to shoot? Ronaldo has only scored like 1 or 2 freekicks in his last almost 100 attempts, yet he reportedly stormed out the training pitch in anger when Benitez suggested watching Freekick videos.

Yet Madrid was one of the clubs you used as an example where Jose was in conflict.

Let me ask you two questions.

1. Would you stop listening to your boss at your current place of work because you tried to listen but its too boring?
2. Manyoo under Ferguson, Barca under Cryuff et all, Arsenal under Wenger had\have very recognisable and consistent patterns of playing. How many players have come out to say the kind of nonsense that the players you quoted said?

Tactics get stale, old, found out and evolution is the only thing that keep you on top. So yes, this my own explanation on why tactics were the real problem that led to Jose's downfall.

How many permutations in formation and tactics do you think are possible? Do you think football is a video game? 4-2-3-1 formation has been the dominant formation in global footy for over a decade now....why do you think this is?

JigsawKillah:
Who ended the Barren UCL run? Pep?

Which UCL run did bayern have?

Nihilist:
NateevsYour post is long and I dont want to quote it all for fear of spambot, so I will respond to a selection of what I think were your key statements. I think that this will be my last response on this issue, not out of disrespect, but because the topic is growing a bit stale and I don't want us to bore other posters.



First 19 games: W14 D4 L1
Last 19 games: W12 D5 L2

Is that really such a bad difference? Especially after international games, League Cup campaign, and UCL campaign as well? The difference between first 19 and last 19 games is 1 draw and 1 loss. Jose's tactics were really stale

In the first half there were 6 CL games, 3 Carling cup games total 9 non league games and 3 International breaks

In the second half of last season there were a total of 2 League cup, 2 CL matches and 2 FA cup games = 6 non league games plus 1 international break

So Oga Ade. How was it the international games, League Cup campaign, and UCL campaign that affected the performance from the dominant Chelsea of the first half vs the Chelsea of the 2nd half especially the difference in goals scored

This statement and the one by Demba Ba irk me greatly. They irritate me so much. I work hard for my money. I cannot stop pushing myself to keep working as best as I can because I know my livelihood and that of my family depends on it. That statement you read is the most unprofessional admission I have ever had the misfortune of reading.

Imagine this, a player, openly admitting that he wasn't listening to his manager because he was bored. Or the other one that was expecting Jose to function as his personal psychologist. I don't see how you can blame Jose for a player who admits that he wasn't listening. Is that not the ultimate height a player power? When a player refuses to listen to his manager in the knowledge that his own job is secure and the manager fired?

Shebi Benitez has been fired today. Ronaldo and Bale in a game where Madrid registered only 3 shots on target. Wetin manager wan talk again? Abi is it the manager that will tell that type of player how to shoot? Ronaldo has only scored like 1 or 2 freekicks in his last almost 100 attempts, yet he reportedly stormed out the training pitch in anger when Benitez suggested watching Freekick videos.

Yet Madrid was one of the clubs you used as an example where Jose was in conflict.

Let me ask you two questions.

1. Would you stop listening to your boss at your current place of work because you tried to listen but its too boring?
2. Manyoo under Ferguson, Barca under Cryuff et all, Arsenal under Wenger had\have very recognisable and consistent patterns of playing. How many players have come out to say the kind of nonsense that the players you quoted said?

If you like somersault and use head nack ground. Player power is real and every manager should adapt to the players ego

Ferguson had to bend over for Rooney and Ronaldo. The most succesful madrid coaches in recent times are Del Bosque and Ancelotti and what both had in common was that they didnt rule like village Headmasters and were loved by the players who got them the results

Did you hear the news today? Enrique just won the coach of the year. This time last yr he was fighting Messi. He benched Messi one game and all hell was let lose. Why didnt he try it again to test his popularity

If the choice was between messi and Enrique 10 times out of 10 Barca mgt would choose Ijaya messi

Enrique learnt how to bend to player power, If Messi tells Enrique to loan him his wife, the only question Enrique would have is "For how long you need her, Sir Messi?"
Today Enrique was named best coach of the year. Mourinho chose to fight players today he is jobless

Spot the difference

Raumdeuter the false prophet...how far na?

Which kain mumu question you dey ask me na? Or are you saying you don't understand how performance in a long campaign can dip towards the end of the season due to fatigue?

Or you think EPL is like Bayernliga where the teams have one full month in winter to rest?

Despite all this, this dip in performance only led to a 4 point drop. The difference between 1st 19 and last 19 games was that we drew 1 game and lost 1 game. I really can't understand how you and nateevs can claim that this is even a bad thing.

Secondly, if you knew that player power is here to stay since, then why have you been blaming everything from Matic to Jose's tactics to Guardiola's underpants since?

And you are a liar, NO player could ever undermine Ferguson. Rooney? Ronaldo? Egbon e tin paro ni o.

Enrique doesn't have a say at Barca cos (1) He has no pedigree. You think Messi could try that shyt with Ferguson?

Drogba even gave an arbitrary time frame, saying that things go in 3 year cycles. So after 3 years, we should better go and look for a new manager otherwise, the players no go hear word.

Is there even any wonder that Chelsea has no football identity? That we don't have a 'Chelsea way'?

Nateevs posted those quotes as 'proof' that Jose isn't a good manager. If you read those kind of statements and still think tactics or midfield is to blame, then oyo Lo wa.

Get ready for more of the same...

@Nihilist,
+``
For the fear of the spambot, I will just reply straight to you. Football is an art and under no terms should it be compared with the daily work that you and I do. If they were remotely the same, you and I would be earning in excess of £20k every week. Now I am not privy to details of your earnings but I can almost conclude you don't earn this much.

Footballing is an art just like writing music. And yes, you can lose motivation for writing music despite earning millions for doing it. The art of being a top class manager is also the motivating factor. It is true for teams at the top of the table and it is true for teams at the bottom of the table.

It has little to with player power. It has all to do with the nous of the manager of the resources. To harness the available resources to its fullest potential to achieve the desired results, this comes with the requirements of the job. The job spec also requires continually redressing the methods employed to achieve success. There is no need to attempt re-writing the rules of the game because "our" favourite manager is involved. It's been this way since the advent of modern football.

What else could have happened overnight to Jose's players who just won the league to turn their backs on him?

This is Carlo Ancellotti's view on the subject of Chelsea and motivation.

'I look from a distance at Chelsea and I think they won the title easily last year and I don't think they are so motivated this year.



If Managers don't motivate their players, they don't perform. That's how it is.



And I don't think there is a need to go overboard with player's professionalism because this is the core of the issue that you miss. Believe it or not, the player's "reluctance to listen" in this instance is directly related to the type of football they played. This is why you wouldn't have heard this from players at United with Fergie and players at Barca under Cryuff (the master-mind after Rinus Michels of Total Football). . . because the players who played under the system of the both managers won trophies with delightful football, they were repeatedly longing to start another season.

On the other hand, it is the same reason why players have refused to listen to Rafa at RM. Negative tactics. I don't remember the same players revolting against Ancellotti.

bigkesh:
My Fav UCL game has to be the 2-2 draw at camp Nou.... That game still looks like a Nollywood production....

Slightly edges The Istanbul madness

I agree. Scoring 2 goals with 10 men against Barcelona, at Camp Nou, takes a SPECIAL effort. Usually, when Barca are two goals up, and the opposition are down to 10 men, the conversation is whether their opponents can limit Barca to 5 or 6 goals.
But Chelsea's resolve that night was legendary.

The main motivating factor that any manager can have is predicated in his job security.

Ferguson was Manyoo himself and all the players knew it. That's the difference. So many of Ferguson's players hated him...including Wayne Rooney. But they knew that the dare not play ball because it's them who would be shown the door. And very fast too with no questions asked.

Did you even read the Drogba quote you posted.

The guy actually gave expiry date for his attention span. Which manager can 'motivate' in that kind of framework?

That's why we went back to Ferguson. This guy busted Beckham's head with boot and it's still Beckham that left the club.

Ronaldo yarned his yarns and ranted his rants, Ferguson delayed him by a year and nothing could happen.

Stam was one of the best defenders in the world when Ferguson chased him. Tevez that was using Mancini to gba star could not try it with SAF...and you're talking about 'expansive football'?

Whether football is an art or a science is irrelevant. A job is a job and all jobs have elements of repetition in them to certain degrees. Yet football is the only one where the players decide and define the length of their attention span

The yarns about Benitez and negative tactics again...didn't they win a league game 10-1 a few weeks ago? Oyo who is the manager playing positive tactics that is in a long term job?

[quote author=Nihilist post=41654684]Raumdeuter the false prophet...how far na?

Nihilist

Take it Alhaji ehn ehn, Oya take it alhaji ehn ehn oya shekininininini


The former Manchester United manager fell out with his star striker last season over his form and fitness and has consistently claimed the 27-year-old said he wanted to leave the club.

Ferguson admits that Rooney was initially unhappy about the game time he was getting and the position he was being played in.

But the England player remains angry and Ferguson claims that is because financial bonuses could have been put at risk.


The 71-year-old told Sky Sports: "This is the nub of it: in the regulations, in your contract, if you write a letter and ask away or say you have asked away, you lose all your signing-on fees.

"He has never admitted that and never put in a written transfer request, which is what he has been sore at."

Asked if he was clear that Rooney had made a verbal request to leave the club, Ferguson said: "Yes, that's right."
He added: "My memory is he asked away because, he said, he was not going to play in his proper position. I can understand that.

http://www.skysports.com/football/news/11667/8985786/sir-alex-ferguson-blames-contract-issues-for-wayne-rooney-rows-in-autobiography

But Dayo what is that supposed to prove?

Benitez's record at #RealMadrid
Games: 25
Won: 17
Drawn: 5
Lost: 3

#NegativeTactics.

Isco was laughing when an opponent scored Madrid. Sergio Ramos gave press conference to criticise his manager after being criticised for a needless 90th minute foul that led to one of those draws up there. Ronaldo refusing to take instructions on training pitch. James Rodriguez getting chased by police to the Madrid training ground.

But no...Benitez Negative tactics is the reason why he was sacked.

Nihilist:
But Dayo what is that supposed to prove?

It proved that Rooney at some point had clashes with ferguson regarding the position he was required to play on the field and Ferguson didnt boot him out or bench him nor apply Garrison tactics

Nihilist:
Enrique doesn't have a say at Barca cos (1) He has no pedigree. You think Messi could try that shyt with Ferguson?
..

Enrique doesnt have a say yet his career is on the up because he learnt how to manage egos. He has no say but he just won the coach of the yr. if he continues that was and win 3 more CL titles maybe the organizing bodies would take it away from him that he had no say. Mourinho that had a say has been fired at his last 2 jobs. 2 more of those sack and no one would touch him again

Messi would try anything with anyone Ferguson, Van Gaal Mourinho or Guardiola. Even players that werent half as good as Messi did whatever they liked. Mario Basler made himself law and Hitzfeld + Otto Rehhagel 2 very strict disciplinarians had to accomodate him

You think Player power started today? Mario Basler set his own training schedule that suit himself. He smoked in training. He was caught drinking and gambling all night before games

What of George Best. Same enfant terrible attitude

@Nihilist.


What you have done so far is rebuff our opinions about the whole saga. Let's start from the very point we disagree and ask you to take on the mantle. We both agree Jose was the problem. Now instead of telling me why my point is wrong, kindly let us know why you think the players, who won the league only last year, revolted and turned on Jose overnight.

Nihilist:
Nobody ever claimed that our midfield is the best. After all, I posted last summer how the Matic-Fabregas pivot was the most dribbled past pairing in the league...and we still won the flipping thing.

What I, in particular, will never accept that our midfield was the main cause of our terrible slump pre-Hiddink. I had to refuse and reject that assertion and the accompanying implication that we had the 16th best midfield in the EPL because that was a big fat lie...

Corelation does not equal Causation.

Or how do you explain the small fact that Matic, the mascot of the 'Midfield Enthusiasts' here was\is actually terrible in the first half of the season?

Do you honestly believe that the turnaround in our team's fortunes is due to Hiddink?

Jose got sacked on Friday and Gus started on Monday- Yet a team that couldn't buy a win previously beat Sunderland by 2 goals on Saturday.

Abi you think 4-5 weeks is enough to change almost 3 years of Jose's tactics?

See Costa that didn't know where the post was before now playing like a striker again.

Omo lets move on with the team and not deceive ourselves.

Even that serial German false prophet has slightly shifted his stance from 'Midfield is the problem' to 'Tactics was the problem'

Tactics apart, many factors were responsible for our slump in form pre-hiddink, that has always been my stance.

I tend to point at the imbalance in the team more, in this case, the midfield, b'cos when a certain revolt against the manager was reported to be on, a proper utilization of the squad could have had us moving.

Had it been Jose had a fat squad to choose from, do you think a revolt led by certain players would be a problem? NO.

Had it been Jose had competent CM players to choose from, do you think he'd be bothered about Cesc's lackadaisical attitude? NO.

Jose needed to turn to some players to save his season, alas, those he had were the Ramires, Loftus-cheek, Kenedy of our time, ninjas that put the I in incompetence.

So my point stands. The imbalance in the team and lack of depth contributed largely to our slump in form pre-hiddink.

Jose is the last man you'll expect to massage your ego. When he fell out with Casillas and Pepe at Real, it was easy to replace 'em with Diego Alves and Varane respectively. Here at Chelsea, we parade ninnies as squad players. So it is easy for the first team players to revolt against the manager and still be of the knowledge that their place in the team is safe.

This winter transfer window could have been of immense help to Jose, unfortunately, the club had a call to make.

Ain't buying the ''tactics is responsible'' excuse. That wouldn't even feature on my list of probable causes of our slump in form.

nateevs:
@Nihilist.


What you have done so far is rebuff our opinions about the whole saga. Let's start from the very point we disagree and ask you to take on the mantle. We both agree Jose was the problem. Now instead of telling me why my point is wrong, kindly let us know why you think the players, who won the league only last year, revolted and turned on Jose overnight.

Bros Nateevs let's leave this matter because it don dey long, but I'd like you to know that I agree with majority of your submissions so far.

In an argument like this, that's practically a win for you sef.

But It's done it's done so let's move on.

Griffon:
Tactics apart, many factors were responsible for our slump in form pre-hiddink, that has always been my stance.

I tend to point at the imbalance in the team more, in this case, the midfield, b'cos when a certain revolt against the manager was reported to be on, a proper utilization of the squad could have had us moving.

Had it been Jose had a fat squad to choose from, do you think a revolt led by certain players would be a problem? NO.

Had it been Jose had competent CM players to choose from, do you think he'd be bothered about Cesc's lackadisical attitude and uselessness? NO.

Jose needed to turn to some players to save his season, alas, those he had were the Ramires, Loftus-cheek, Kenedy of our time, ninjas that put the I in incompetence.

So my point stands. The imbalance in the team and lack of depth contributed largely to our slump in form pre-hiddink.

Jose is the last man you'll expect to massage your ego. When he fell out with Casillas and Pepe at Real, it was easy to replace 'em with Diego Alves and Varane respectively. Here at Chelsea, we parade ninnies as squad players. So it is easy for the first team players to revolt against the manager and still be of the knowledge that their place in the team is safe.

This winter transfer window could have been of immense help to Jose, unfortunately, the club had a call to make.

Ain't buying the ''tactics is responsible'' excuse. That wouldn't even feature on my list of probable causes of our slump in form.

Cosigned.

nateevs:
@Nihilist.

What you have done so far is rebuff our opinions about the whole saga. Let's start from the very point we disagree and ask you to take on the mantle. We both agree Jose was the problem. Now instead of telling me why my point is wrong, kindly let us know why you think the players, who won the league only last year, revolted and turned on Jose overnight.

For a start, the Eva Caniero's row.

It was reported that some players who had established a good relationship with the physio weren't happy with the way Jose had handled the issue.

According to reports, some players were exhibiting some forms of Shenanigans at various stages of the season, demanding for the sack of the manager.

There was a revolt which affected the team's overall performance. This is why I don't buy Dayo's tactics sampe sampe claim.

Zidane is named Real's new manager, and guess who his No1 target is?

Eden Hazard.

I'm 75% sure our last season's player of the season would link up with Zizou at Madrid. We're in advanced talk to sign Alex Teixera, that could be Hazard's replacement right there.

Who's this Senegalese striker Emenalo wan sign for us abeg? This man wont just stop giving the careers of his aged African brothers a huge lift.

Santa Emenalo Dasuki.