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General Topic Thread-To Discuss Anything And Everything in Building Construction - Properties (514) - Nairaland

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Discuss Anything Property And Lets Make Money In The Process / Residential Building Construction Mistakes In Nigeria You Need To Avoid / General Topic Thread - The Roforofo Thread Of Construction Activities (2) (3) (4)

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Re: General Topic Thread-To Discuss Anything And Everything in Building Construction by itswell1: 7:29pm On Sep 07, 2016
sensegiver:
So fastestshipper is faster and smarter than Fastshipping? Abi na same somebody?
Its the same person.
Seems Seun banned him and i guess same for Back2sender for thier 10 pages battle here.

3 Likes

Re: General Topic Thread-To Discuss Anything And Everything in Building Construction by Excuzeme: 9:05pm On Sep 07, 2016
Two important observations:

1.) [size=14pt] Dont argue with Lepers, they would always beat you with EXPERIENCE". shocked shocked

2.) "If a MAD PERSON provokes you to a fight, kindly decline otherwise people will not know the difference between both of you".[/size] undecided undecided


I have noticed that [size=14pt]sane people[/size] just logged-in, observed the Lepers and log-out of the thread, till their madness subsides.
That is worth emulating.


[size=14pt]LEPERS, over to you! keep the pages going for now.[/size]

5 Likes 2 Shares

Re: General Topic Thread-To Discuss Anything And Everything in Building Construction by Juokorow(m): 9:35pm On Sep 07, 2016
Enough is enough. You all should grow up and cease the senseless bickering and finger pointing debacle. I would be ashamed of my adult son or siblings were they to engage in this sort of madness during which people have even invoked the name of God during cross fires of expletives and uncouth words, even on Holy Days. Many have implored and begged for cessation of hostilities, to no avail. At this point, reasonable people no longer care about who started or restarted the pride-filled face-off and "unclad" dance of madness. Your parents would be less than proud of the ongoing particular conduct, regardless of the merits of the initial stand or cause. If you think otherwise, unmask your identity. I dare you by unmasking myself. My name is Joel Okorowo. GOOGLE or FACEBOOK me and judge how I conduct my life in terms of respect for self and others, regardless of station. Enough is enough!

6 Likes

Re: General Topic Thread-To Discuss Anything And Everything in Building Construction by olumz1: 10:39pm On Sep 07, 2016
Abeg, somebody please update me on how much a bag of cement is being sold for around you..

1 Like

Re: General Topic Thread-To Discuss Anything And Everything in Building Construction by segcymoor(m): 10:41pm On Sep 07, 2016
kesterjay:
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Tiger TMT for 135k?.....15tons required!
Re: General Topic Thread-To Discuss Anything And Everything in Building Construction by erico2k2(m): 6:50am On Sep 08, 2016
olumz1:
Abeg, somebody please update me on how much a bag of cement is being sold for around you..
I think you need to mention your locality so that people close to you might respond
Re: General Topic Thread-To Discuss Anything And Everything in Building Construction by twinskenny(m): 7:06am On Sep 08, 2016
erico2k2:

I think you need to mention your locality so that people close to you might respond

Yes still 2200 in my area
Re: General Topic Thread-To Discuss Anything And Everything in Building Construction by olapluto(m): 10:25am On Sep 08, 2016
Will it be right to increase rent in light of increasing building materials? My property is in Ibadan and I have penned down an average rent of 5000 naira per room (3 bedroom flat will go for 20K a month). Rent is cheap in Ibadan, but will it make sense to raise the rent to 5,500 per month per room per month? Thats an increase of 30K on yearly rent paid.

Anyone else considering raising rent?
Re: General Topic Thread-To Discuss Anything And Everything in Building Construction by koning: 10:44am On Sep 08, 2016
I have been curious about this question. Maybe someone here can provide an answer. IS THERE ANY WAY TO SMUGGLE CHEAP CEMENT FROM COTONOU?. CAN ONE BUY CEMENT FROM NEIGBOURING COUNTRIES, or smuggled cement from Badagry.

Do they even manufacture Cement there or is it the same Dangote over there ?.

1 Like

Re: General Topic Thread-To Discuss Anything And Everything in Building Construction by gbadexy(m): 11:02am On Sep 08, 2016
koning:
I have been curious about this question. Maybe someone here can provide an answer. IS THERE ANY WAY TO SMUGGLE CHEAP CEMENT FROM COTONOU?. CAN ONE BUY CEMENT FROM NEIGBOURING COUNTRIES, or smuggled cement from Badagry.

Do they even manufacture Cement there or is it the same Dangote over there ?.
I know dangote has a strong presence in Togo. Can't talk of cotonou.
I doubt if dangote cement would be increased much if available in the neighboring countries.
I would be cautious of importing just any cement in a neighboring country if I were you because you can't ascertain it's quality.
Re: General Topic Thread-To Discuss Anything And Everything in Building Construction by AZUH: 1:15pm On Sep 08, 2016
@ olapluto Yoruba Muslim . Please you don't have any flat in IB . Go n drink your ogogoro and face your family .
Re: General Topic Thread-To Discuss Anything And Everything in Building Construction by kopell: 3:53pm On Sep 08, 2016
olapluto:
Will it be right to increase rent in light of increasing building materials? My property is in Ibadan and I have penned down an average rent of 5000 naira per room (3 bedroom flat will go for 20K a month). Rent is cheap in Ibadan, but will it make sense to raise the rent to 5,500 per month per room per month? Thats an increase of 30K on yearly rent paid.

Anyone else considering raising rent?
Bro that is not fear in my opinion. I believe your house was not just build, why adding more flame to the fire. We need to be patriotic and our brothers keeper.
Re: General Topic Thread-To Discuss Anything And Everything in Building Construction by kopell: 4:03pm On Sep 08, 2016
koning:
I have been curious about this question. Maybe someone here can provide an answer. IS THERE ANY WAY TO SMUGGLE CHEAP CEMENT FROM COTONOU?. CAN ONE BUY CEMENT FROM NEIGBOURING COUNTRIES, or smuggled cement from Badagry.

Do they even manufacture Cement there or is it the same Dangote over there ?.
Why people alway think in the wrong side of the law for God sake. Imagine what you are asking in the front of the whole world, how do we get here. Corruption started from thinking in mind, may God help us.
Re: General Topic Thread-To Discuss Anything And Everything in Building Construction by twinskenny(m): 4:08pm On Sep 08, 2016
koning:
I have been curious about this question. Maybe someone here can provide an answer. IS THERE ANY WAY TO SMUGGLE CHEAP CEMENT FROM COTONOU?. CAN ONE BUY CEMENT FROM NEIGBOURING COUNTRIES, or smuggled cement from Badagry.

Do they even manufacture Cement there or is it the same Dangote over there ?.

Lol think of the risk.... Think of transportation cost.

It's illegal

1 Like

Re: General Topic Thread-To Discuss Anything And Everything in Building Construction by kesterjay(m): 6:10pm On Sep 08, 2016
segcymoor:
Tiger TMT for 135k?.....15tons required!
Call me lets discuss the price if u r serious
Re: General Topic Thread-To Discuss Anything And Everything in Building Construction by koning: 6:29pm On Sep 08, 2016
kopell:
Why people alway think in the wrong side of the law for God sake. Imagine what you are asking in the front of the whole world, how do we get here. Corruption started from thinking in mind, may God help us.


As far as I'm concerned selling Cement for N2,400 in Nigeria is 'against the law'. It should be illegal. We are being robbed with everyone using the scarcity of Dollar as an excuse.

If I can get smuggled Cement for N1,500 anywhere, I will not hesitate to buy it. Dangote Cement is corruption personified.

5 Likes

Re: General Topic Thread-To Discuss Anything And Everything in Building Construction by koning: 6:34pm On Sep 08, 2016
twinskenny:


Lol think of the risk.... Think of transportation cost.

It's illegal


I only worry about the transportation cost. I think that the Government should once again allow Cement importation. Ibeto would sell for N1,500 if allowed to import. Builders would team up to buy a ship load. Anything to force down the price in Nigeria.

Cement is the cheapest building material all over the world. In Nigeria the manufacturers enjoy a monopoly. This must stop.

2 Likes

Re: General Topic Thread-To Discuss Anything And Everything in Building Construction by Larwin(m): 7:22pm On Sep 08, 2016
Sire, I think this is reasoning in the wrong direction. Please let's support the government by appreciating local content.

If ibeto wish to sell cement in Nigeria, let him produce his cement here, y importing?? Nigeria is a big Country and it's cement industry shouldn't be dominated by one man only.

Only one man controlling price... I heard dangote loses about 30% of his wealth due to recession, won't he go back to the drawing board and restrategized?

The problem with Nigerians is d fear of competing with dangote in the market and nobody wants to go in that direction...
Re: General Topic Thread-To Discuss Anything And Everything in Building Construction by gbadexy(m): 7:45pm On Sep 08, 2016
Larwin:
Sire, I think this is reasoning in the wrong direction. Please let's support the government by appreciating local content.

If ibeto wish to sell cement in Nigeria, let him produce his cement here, y importing?? Nigeria is a big Country and it's cement industry shouldn't be dominated by one man only.

Only one man controlling price... I heard dangote loses about 30% of his wealth due to recession, won't he go back to the drawing board and restrategized?

The problem with Nigerians is d fear of competing with dangote in the market and nobody wants to go in that direction...
It's not fear of competition per Se but dangote has always enjoyed government support.
His success thus far cannot be separated from government support at any administration and he can be very ruthless in using his connection to frustrate any perceived competition.
I support total local content but there must be a level playing ground.
There shouldn't be a reason why an imported cement should be much cheaper than locally manufactured cement.
Re: General Topic Thread-To Discuss Anything And Everything in Building Construction by kopell: 8:00pm On Sep 08, 2016
kesterjay:


Call me lets discuss the price if u r serious
Great this is what we should encourage local content. To create job for this young kinds and take them off the street.
Re: General Topic Thread-To Discuss Anything And Everything in Building Construction by kopell: 8:12pm On Sep 08, 2016
gbadexy:

It's not fear of competition per Se but dangote has always enjoyed government support.
His success thus far cannot be separated from government support at any administration and he can be very ruthless in using his connection to frustrate any perceived competition.
I support total local content but there must be a level playing ground.
There shouldn't be a reason why an imported cement should be much cheaper than locally manufactured cement.
I believe if others chose to invest like he did, they will also get goverment support too. Not dollar round tripling, will only create fee rich people at the cost of many

1 Like

Re: General Topic Thread-To Discuss Anything And Everything in Building Construction by Larwin(m): 8:28pm On Sep 08, 2016
kopell:
I believe if others chose to invest like he did, they will also get goverment support too. Not dollar round tripling, will only create fee rich people at the cost of many


Abi o, Wat wé like here is finished products. Nobody want to go through the production pain. Same thing applies to other industries
Re: General Topic Thread-To Discuss Anything And Everything in Building Construction by gbadexy(m): 9:26pm On Sep 08, 2016
Larwin:


Abi o, Wat wé like here is finished products. Nobody want to go through the production pain. Same thing applies to other industries
I rep local content all the way.
We should encourage local production and manufacturing and we should patronize them to encourage it.
Progress is being made in shoes and clothes, not forgetting paint industry and the massive support given to young entrepreneurs like moi on nairalandgrin.
Sirs, I've pondered deeply and discussed with some people that nigeria needs to have a radical educational reform if we are to make any significant development.
My brothers in the east are already making great strides in utilizing local content and ingenuity.
Our curriculum should be made to include one vocational course at all levels as electives with another course in detailed practical on it. We take irrelevant elective courses in our schools, I see no reason why they can't be replaced with practical courses.
Re: General Topic Thread-To Discuss Anything And Everything in Building Construction by lastpage: 12:47am On Sep 09, 2016
gbadexy:

I rep local content all the way.
We should encourage local production and manufacturing and we should patronize them to encourage it.
Progress is being made in shoes and clothes, not forgetting paint industry and the massive support given to young entrepreneurs like moi on nairalandgrin.
Sirs, I've pondered deeply and discussed with some people that nigeria needs to have a radical educational reform if we are to make any significant development.
My brothers in the east are already making great strides in utilizing local content and ingenuity.
Our curriculum should be made to include one vocational course at all levels as electives with another course in detailed practical on it. We take irrelevant elective courses in our schools, I see no reason why they can't be replaced with practical courses.


Well-said!

Our curriculum is a reflection of our society.
The curriculum will only teach what it feels is "useful" based on CURRENT REALITY


Years back, we go to "Trade Center" when we were in primary six while the girls go to Domestic Science Center.

I can still remember that a lot of Table Tennis Bats l used in playing Table Tennis were carved out by myself, from that same Trade Center.
we did Metal Work, Wood work, e.t.c.
But today, l hardly hear children mention anything like that or bring such things home, thing sthey did with their own hands!

The question then is WHY?

Let me attempt a response:
If we look around, we would realize that not a single country ever PROGRESSED without an appreciable level of stable Electricity (Power Industry), followed by STEEL industry. These two are the basis if any industrialization that produces development.

Until Nigeria can generate an appreciable level of Power, we will keep going round in circles.
Electricity powers development/production.


There are millions of Nigerians, with millions of brilliant and profitable, productive ideas floating around but when you consider that you had to first buy a Generator (not even feasible in some business where the electricity consumption is enormous!), buy Petrol/diesel at average of #145 still rising, factor-in cost of breakdowns and repair of these generators, then you will realise that all your projected profit will just be sued to "produce electricity".
The Govt has a duty and responsibility to invest and build Power stations (Hydro, Wind, Solar, Wave, e.t.c) to kick start the economy.
No foreign investor will do that for Nigeria simply because it is a long term investment with slow pay-back regime.
Private Investors want quick returns.

I dont want to write anything lengthy on this issue because it is very deep.

Bottom line is that until we develop those two sectors, which in-turn will sprout other cottage industries and fuel innovation and other ancillary industries,

The greatest mistake successive Govts (and this current one) continue to make concerning Power improvement (Electricity and Fuel) is thinking that once you continue to throw more money at it (by increasing its cost, to the citizens so as to increase the "profit margins" of so-called investors), the services will improve.
Its never going to.

The greedy private sector simply milks the profit grow fatter and jumps ship (or blackmail the Govt for even more profit margin) when they want more, like Oliver Twist.

Power and Steel are exclusive preserve of Government, at the early stage.
When it is developed and stable, Govt can then sell-if-off to investors.




Lastpage!

1 Like

Re: General Topic Thread-To Discuss Anything And Everything in Building Construction by 4nobody4every1: 6:06am On Sep 09, 2016
lastpage:



Well-said!

Our curriculum is a reflection of our society.
The curriculum will only teach what it feels is "useful" based on CURRENT REALITY


Years back, we go to "Trade Center" when we were in primary six while the girls go to Domestic Science Center.

I can still remember that a lot of Table Tennis Bats l used in playing Table Tennis were carved out by myself, from that same Trade Center.
we did Metal Work, Wood work, e.t.c.
But today, l hardly hear children mention anything like that or bring such things home, thing sthey did with their own hands!

The question then is WHY?

Let me attempt a response:
If we look around, we would realize that not a single country ever PROGRESSED without an appreciable level of stable Electricity (Power Industry), followed by STEEL industry. These two are the basis if any industrialization that produces development.

Until Nigeria can generate an appreciable level of Power, we will keep going round in circles.
Electricity powers development/production.


There are millions of Nigerians, with millions of brilliant and profitable, productive ideas floating around but when you consider that you had to first buy a Generator (not even feasible in some business where the electricity consumption is enormous!), buy Petrol/diesel at average of #145 still rising, factor-in cost of breakdowns and repair of these generators, then you will realise that all your projected profit will just be sued to "produce electricity".
The Govt has a duty and responsibility to invest and build Power stations (Hydro, Wind, Solar, Wave, e.t.c) to kick start the economy.
No foreign investor will do that for Nigeria simply because it is a long term investment with slow pay-back regime.
Private Investors want quick returns.

I dont want to write anything lengthy on this issue because it is very deep.

Bottom line is that until we develop those two sectors, which in-turn will sprout other cottage industries and fuel innovation and other ancillary industries,

The greatest mistake successive Govts (and this current one) continue to make concerning Power improvement (Electricity and Fuel) is thinking that once you continue to throw more money at it (by increasing its cost, to the citizens so as to increase the "profit margins" of so-called investors), the services will improve.
Its never going to.

The greedy private sector simply milks the profit grow fatter and jumps ship (or blackmail the Govt for even more profit margin) when they want more, like Oliver Twist.

Power and Steel are exclusive preserve of Government, at the early stage.
When it is developed and stable, Govt can then sell-if-off to investors.




Lastpage!
Spot on, to even think that the presidency of Obasanjo pumped billions into the power sector during his regime and it got embezzled by middle men and contractors is sickening, can Nigerians ever enjoy 24 hours round the clock power supply?.......l doubt, maybe in the here-after because with the kind of wicked politicians we currently have in the National assembly who are self centered, paddling budget to there own advantage, and looking for every loophole in the system to embezzle more money, it will be nearly impossible to have constant electricity in Nigeria, other nations are planning & thinking of driver-less vehicles, space exploration etc to benefit humanity, Nigeria government is thinking of how to produce pencils, akara, guguru , amala & ewedu, suya & onions, biscuits and bread grin grin

1 Like

Re: General Topic Thread-To Discuss Anything And Everything in Building Construction by 4nobody4every1: 6:15am On Sep 09, 2016
Re: General Topic Thread-To Discuss Anything And Everything in Building Construction by spyder880(m): 7:54am On Sep 09, 2016
4nobody4every1:

@spyder880, what do you think about this grin grin

http://www.lindaikejisblog.com/2016/09/spanish-inventors-create-hands-free.html

While it's a good invention, at least it will halt the spread of toilet infections, they should make sure the technology is fine tuned. What happens when a fault occurs and the hot air gets too hot as to peel the something something cheesy

1 Like

Re: General Topic Thread-To Discuss Anything And Everything in Building Construction by 4nobody4every1: 7:59am On Sep 09, 2016
spyder880:


While it's a good invention, at least it will halt the spread of toilet infections, they should make sure the technology is fine tuned. What happens when a fault occurs and the hot air gets too hot as to peel the something something cheesy
l think they will fine tune it and it has to be approved by relevant bodies before it hits the market on a full scale and if it will have serious side effect, l think they will discontinue with the production
Re: General Topic Thread-To Discuss Anything And Everything in Building Construction by iLoveTheSun(m): 8:42am On Sep 09, 2016
lastpage:

Years back, we go to "Trade Center" when we were in primary six while the girls go to Domestic Science Center.
I can still remember that a lot of Table Tennis Bats l used in playing Table Tennis were carved out by myself, from that same Trade Center.
we did Metal Work, Wood work, e.t.c.
But today, l hardly hear children mention anything like that or bring such things home, thing sthey did with their own hands!
The question then is WHY?
Good morning @House,

@lastpage, I like your comments!
Where are the Trade Centers? Are they gone? I can see the advantages of having Trade Centers.
In the US, there is an emergence of the DIY/maker trend. New privately run workshops are founded all over the nation and run like a sports club, even though funded by private capital/venture capital. You become a member and you have access to all sorts of machines and tools, that you normally are not able to afford.
Pensioners would teach members of all age how to use those machines. When unemployed, you have time to learn new skills to be ready for your next job. Young people are able to discover new trades and can identify their skills and likes. At the same time, it is a place where new ventures are incubated, where you meet like-minded people to bond and to create something great for your neighbor, for your state, for your nation, and eventually for exportation as well. (that will bring hard currencies)

2 Likes

Re: General Topic Thread-To Discuss Anything And Everything in Building Construction by iLoveTheSun(m): 8:53am On Sep 09, 2016
I support this as well. Lots of efforts of people are wasted, most of their little household budget is spent on electricity, and little is left for new investments in tools, machines, or vehicles to increase productivity.

lastpage:


If we look around, we would realize that not a single country ever PROGRESSED without an appreciable level of stable Electricity (Power Industry), followed by STEEL industry. These two are the basis if any industrialization that produces development.
Until Nigeria can generate an appreciable level of Power, we will keep going round in circles. Electricity powers development/production.

There are millions of Nigerians, with millions of brilliant and profitable, productive ideas floating around but when you consider that you had to first buy a Generator (not even feasible in some business where the electricity consumption is enormous!), buy Petrol/diesel at average of #145 still rising, factor-in cost of breakdowns and repair of these generators, then you will realise that all your projected profit will just be sued to "produce electricity".

The Govt has a duty and responsibility to invest and build Power stations (Hydro, Wind, Solar, Wave, e.t.c) to kick start the economy.
No foreign investor will do that for Nigeria simply because it is a long term investment with slow pay-back regime.
Private Investors want quick returns.
I dont want to write anything lengthy on this issue because it is very deep.

Bottom line is that until we develop those two sectors, which in-turn will sprout other cottage industries and fuel innovation and other ancillary industries,
...
Lastpage!

One possible solution could be private-public partnerships: private investors to initiate solar plants/parks with feed-in tariffs that are guaranteed by the state first, then by the federal government. 10-25% equity by private investors, loan provided by various Development Banks?!

But this topic should be discussed in a different thread, I guess?

sunny regards,
Re: General Topic Thread-To Discuss Anything And Everything in Building Construction by lastpage: 1:03pm On Sep 09, 2016
iLoveTheSun:
I support this as well. Lots of efforts of people are wasted, most of their little household budget is spent on electricity, and little is left for new investments in tools, machines, or vehicles to increase productivity.



One possible solution could be private-public partnerships: private investors to initiate solar plants/parks with feed-in tariffs that are guaranteed by the state first, then by the federal government. 10-25% equity by private investors, loan provided by various Development Banks?

But this topic should be discussed in a different thread, I guess?

sunny regards,

Your inputs above makes a lot of sense. I salute you.

To be "brutally honest" with you, we live in an environment where "self first and greed" have overtaken any sense of morality/good values/human betterment that we have left.
Everyone thinks first about not just how much they would make but how they can do so without giving ANYTHING back into the system! angry angry

If you compare our private investors to their counterparts in US/Europe, you will see the wide difference.
Ours just want to make stupendous wealth
(so they can flaunt it and oppress the less privileged : e.g those who took over Govt assets like Nitel, NICON, Steel Mills, Discos, e.t.c) at the expense of the poor

But their counterparts in those foreign lands always think first, how they can mass-produce for the public, satisfy a yearning "gap of need" and then GRADUALLY MAKE MONEY from it over a LONG TIME.
They are long-sighted while the Nigerian private sector/investor is acutely short-sighted.


This is why you cant have the likes of Sir Richard Brandsten who has been funding space vehicle researches, multiple delivery/re-entry vehicles even when he knows that he may keep spending for the next ten years without a single "kobo" coming back-in. But he knows that once he succeeds, the financial profit would roll-in like a flood! (Mugun importing nations like Nigeria will be the first to queue-up that they want to BUY solutions, with the forex we dont even have undecided undecided )

The Nigerian private investors/Mogul is interested in only short term projects and that is why you wont find them investing in building a Power Plant (aside those micro projects they call micro-plant that will provide power for just one company or street and be completed in a very short time so they can start getting paid back within one year! angry )

In essence, funding of MAJOR, public projects like Power is a Govt DUTY.
I think the U.K Govt contracted to build another Nuclear Power plant last year, seeing that power demand may increase in the nearest future and some of the present plants are aging.
That is "foresight and responsibility" by a GOVT.
On completion, Govt will break it into manageable parts (generation, Transmission, distribution, e.t.c) and sell it to private investors, who will then sell the power to the public and other end users.

It is not generally the position of private investors to invest in very capital-intensive projects whose ROI (Return on Investment) comes in bits and will take a long time.

We can also factor in the problems of "standardisation"
as you can see in the Roads done by our local Companies! Asphalt that should be Eight inches thick on a major road is reduced to less than One inch thickness with the result that any small rain like this, the road quickly develops Pot-holes and fails. Such example litters the whole place within Nigeria.

The point l am making is that Govt MUST DO certain things, complete it and then hand-it-over to (sell) to those who are profit minded and are better able to ensure the "profit" comes out of it.
Waiting on these FDI's and Private investors (I have been hearing those terms since 1985 when Babangida came into power but more since the Civilians took power) has proved to be an endless wait. They just sign MOU and never do anything beyond that.

It is the duty of Govt to kick-start the economy with "Capital spending" on infrastructures like Power, Steel Mills, Petro-Chemical Plants, Roads (If not for Govt, we will never build the 3rd Mainland Bridge and Private investors have not been able to build the 4th Mainland bridge, despite the big grammar we have been hearing since 1999! undecided ), e.t.c.

When Govt does its part, the Citizens will have no choice that to leverage on it, produce goods and services, reduce importation of such goods, export locally manufactured items (thereby generate more FOREX and improve the exchange rate of the Naira), create Jobs for million sof able-bodies citizens, reduce level of insecurity as more people get gainfully employed and the attendant benefits goes on-and-on.

I pray we will have leaders with such simple vision




Lastpage!

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