₦airaland Forum

reallest:
Dats what I expect from Yahweh follower,very aggressive and abusive

JaaizTech:
I stumbled upon this post, while conducting a research about the Biblical view of Ishmael, Abraham and Isaac. I thought I should post the results of my finding and perhaps someone may find it useful someday.

Many xtians are of the opinion that God cursed Ishmael, because of the biblical verse (Genesis 16:12: "He will be a wild donkey of a man;
his hand will be against everyone and everyone’s hand against him, and he will live in hostility toward all his brothers.” ). Mere reading through this verse makes it appear like a curse, but also understanding that what is presented is a translation of an ancient language, and the translation may not present the accurate meaning of what the verse is about. So it is makes to consider the verses before and after this verse in order not to read it out of context.

Genesis 16:7 - The angel of the Lord found Hagar near a spring in the desert; it was the spring that is beside the road to Shur.
Genesis 16:8 - And he said, “Hagar, slave of Sarai, where have you come from, and where are you going?” “I’m running away from my mistress Sarai,” she answered.
Genesis 16:9 - Then the angel of the Lord told her, “Go back to your mistress and submit to her.”
Genesis 16:10 - The angel added, “I will increase your descendants so much that they will be too numerous to count.”
Genesis 16:11- The angel of the Lord also said to her:
“You are now pregnant and you will give birth to a son. You shall name him Ishmael,[a] for the Lord has heard of your misery.
Genesis 16:12: "He will be a wild donkey of a man;his hand will be against everyone and everyone’s hand against him, and he will live in hostility toward all his brothers.”
Genesis 16:13 She gave this name to the Lord who spoke to her: “You are the God who sees me,” for she said, “I have now seen[c] the One who sees me.”

Analysing the verses:

What is amazing is that when Hagar goes out into a desert and finds a spring, she is the first women in Scripture to meet an Angel of the Lord (Genesis 16:7). This is very significant. God (Yahweh) comes and speaks to this slave woman in the desert.

He addresses her by name and asks a questions out of his personal knowledge of her circumstance (v . Hagar responds by giving a honest answer as to why she is there. She is given a test of humility by being asked to return and submit to Sarai.

Hagar’s Son Blessed or Cursed? (Genesis 16:10-12)

The Angel of the Lord gives a pronouncement about the child in her womb. What did God think about that child? What would his future look like?

As we look at the promises given by the Angel of the Lord, let’s ask if they are blessings or curses.

1) “I will increase your descendants so much that they will be too numerous to count.” (v 10)

The promise to Abraham was the he would be the father of many nations and this promise of blessing Ishmael’s lineage is affirmed in Genesis 17:20 and partially fulfilled in Genesis 25:13-16. Hagar is the only women in Scripture to whom God gives such a promise of multiplication of seed.[2] This certainly was a significant promise of blessing to a pregnant slave girl.

2) “You will give birth to a son. You shall name him Ishmael, for the Lord has hear of your misery.” (v 11).

How many birth announcements are in the Bible? How many are named by God? The promise to Hagar was that she would have a son and his name means “God hears”. What has God heard? He says he has heard her misery. What gracious care for this slave girl alone in the desert. It certainly was a promise of blessing.

3) “He will be a wild donkey of a man; his hand will be against everyone and everyone’s hand against him, and he will live in hostility toward all his brothers.” (v 12).

To our western ears this does not look much like a promise but maybe an insult and perhaps a curse. We need to remember that Hagar is much closer to Bedouin culture than we are. No one today likes to be called a “donkey”,yet in desert culture a wild donkey communicates freedom and the ability to survive against very harsh elements. In Job 39:5-8 God describes a wild donkey as those that go free and survive in the desert (Job 24:5 also refers to wild donkeys in the desert). To Hagar the slave, this would have been a promise and not a curse. Even though she may not be free, he promised that her son would be!


Another interesting perspective to this, would be the question why would God curse Ishmael Many xtians I know think God cursed Ishmael because He was the outcome of the marriage or illicit relationship Abraham had with Hajar!. Is this account accurate?? If we consider that Abraham married a 3rd wife called Keturah, and she bored him 6 children (Genesis: 25:1), were they also cursed

Two generations later, in the same family, Jacob (Whom is Son of Isaac) likewise practiced polygamy, including taking a secondary wife or concubine. In this case, also, the legal status and the sequence of events are similar.

And when Rachel saw that she bare Jacob no children, Rachel envied her sister; and said unto Jacob, Give me children, or else I die. And Jacob's anger was kindled against Rachel: and he said, Am I in God's stead, who hath withheld from thee the fruit of the womb? And she said, Behold my maid Bilhah, go in unto her; and she shall bear upon my knees that I may also have children by her. And she gave him Bilhah her handmaid to wife: and Jacob went in unto her. And Bilhah conceived, and bare Jacob a son. And Rachel said, God hath judged me, and hath also heard my voice, and hath given me a son: therefore called she his name Dan (Genesis 30:1-6, emphasis added; see also Genesis 30:9).

All these verses seem to suggest that God was not unpleased with Abraham, neither had Abraham done anything that was unGodly, as no biblical verse exists that shows that God rebuked Abraham or Jacob for what they did.

JaaizTech:
I stumbled upon this post, while conducting a research about the Biblical view of Ishmael, Abraham and Isaac. I thought I should post the results of my finding and perhaps someone may find it useful someday.

Many xtians are of the opinion that God cursed Ishmael, because of the biblical verse (Genesis 16:12: "He will be a wild donkey of a man;
his hand will be against everyone and everyone’s hand against him, and he will live in hostility toward all his brothers.” ). Mere reading through this verse makes it appear like a curse, but also understanding that what is presented is a translation of an ancient language, and the translation may not present the accurate meaning of what the verse is about. So it is makes to consider the verses before and after this verse in order not to read it out of context.

Genesis 16:7 - The angel of the Lord found Hagar near a spring in the desert; it was the spring that is beside the road to Shur.
Genesis 16:8 - And he said, “Hagar, slave of Sarai, where have you come from, and where are you going?” “I’m running away from my mistress Sarai,” she answered.
Genesis 16:9 - Then the angel of the Lord told her, “Go back to your mistress and submit to her.”
Genesis 16:10 - The angel added, “I will increase your descendants so much that they will be too numerous to count.”
Genesis 16:11- The angel of the Lord also said to her:
“You are now pregnant and you will give birth to a son. You shall name him Ishmael,[a] for the Lord has heard of your misery.
Genesis 16:12: "He will be a wild donkey of a man;his hand will be against everyone and everyone’s hand against him, and he will live in hostility toward all his brothers.”
Genesis 16:13 She gave this name to the Lord who spoke to her: “You are the God who sees me,” for she said, “I have now seen[c] the One who sees me.”

Analysing the verses:

What is amazing is that when Hagar goes out into a desert and finds a spring, she is the first women in Scripture to meet an Angel of the Lord (Genesis 16:7). This is very significant. God (Yahweh) comes and speaks to this slave woman in the desert.

He addresses her by name and asks a questions out of his personal knowledge of her circumstance (v . Hagar responds by giving a honest answer as to why she is there. She is given a test of humility by being asked to return and submit to Sarai.

Hagar’s Son Blessed or Cursed? (Genesis 16:10-12)

The Angel of the Lord gives a pronouncement about the child in her womb. What did God think about that child? What would his future look like?

As we look at the promises given by the Angel of the Lord, let’s ask if they are blessings or curses.

1) “I will increase your descendants so much that they will be too numerous to count.” (v 10)

The promise to Abraham was the he would be the father of many nations and this promise of blessing Ishmael’s lineage is affirmed in Genesis 17:20 and partially fulfilled in Genesis 25:13-16. Hagar is the only women in Scripture to whom God gives such a promise of multiplication of seed.[2] This certainly was a significant promise of blessing to a pregnant slave girl.

2) “You will give birth to a son. You shall name him Ishmael, for the Lord has hear of your misery.” (v 11).

How many birth announcements are in the Bible? How many are named by God? The promise to Hagar was that she would have a son and his name means “God hears”. What has God heard? He says he has heard her misery. What gracious care for this slave girl alone in the desert. It certainly was a promise of blessing.

3) “He will be a wild donkey of a man; his hand will be against everyone and everyone’s hand against him, and he will live in hostility toward all his brothers.” (v 12).

To our western ears this does not look much like a promise but maybe an insult and perhaps a curse. We need to remember that Hagar is much closer to Bedouin culture than we are. No one today likes to be called a “donkey”,yet in desert culture a wild donkey communicates freedom and the ability to survive against very harsh elements. In Job 39:5-8 God describes a wild donkey as those that go free and survive in the desert (Job 24:5 also refers to wild donkeys in the desert). To Hagar the slave, this would have been a promise and not a curse. Even though she may not be free, he promised that her son would be!


Another interesting perspective to this, would be the question why would God curse Ishmael Many xtians I know think God cursed Ishmael because He was the outcome of the marriage or illicit relationship Abraham had with Hajar!. Is this account accurate?? If we consider that Abraham married a 3rd wife called Keturah, and she bored him 6 children (Genesis: 25:1), were they also cursed

Two generations later, in the same family, Jacob (Whom is Son of Isaac) likewise practiced polygamy, including taking a secondary wife or concubine. In this case, also, the legal status and the sequence of events are similar.

And when Rachel saw that she bare Jacob no children, Rachel envied her sister; and said unto Jacob, Give me children, or else I die. And Jacob's anger was kindled against Rachel: and he said, Am I in God's stead, who hath withheld from thee the fruit of the womb? And she said, Behold my maid Bilhah, go in unto her; and she shall bear upon my knees that I may also have children by her. And she gave him Bilhah her handmaid to wife: and Jacob went in unto her. And Bilhah conceived, and bare Jacob a son. And Rachel said, God hath judged me, and hath also heard my voice, and hath given me a son: therefore called she his name Dan (Genesis 30:1-6, emphasis added; see also Genesis 30:9).

All these verses seem to suggest that God was not unpleased with Abraham, neither had Abraham done anything that was unGodly, as no biblical verse exists that shows that God rebuked Abraham or Jacob for what they did.

udatso:
Yet it's difficult to point out.
It's visible to the blind that your assumption of God cursing Ishmael even as a baby can't be supported by the bible cos proving it will be calling God what he isn't

analice107:
There is no contradiction there.

First, find out why Ismail didn't serve his father's God. That is rebellion No1.

If he didn't serve Jehovah, who did he serve? He definitely served a god, which was it? His mother's god? I think yes.

Till today wives who can't have their own Children bring in girls for their husbands to mate then raise the kids as theirs. Why did Hagar turn against her madam when she discovered she was pregnant?

And he went in unto Hagar, and she conceived: and when she saw that she had conceived, her mistress was despised in her eyes.
Genesis:16:4

inside her mind, she go don think say, now wey she don get belle Abraham go forget barren Sarah face her. Indeed.

Can't you see she sought to throw Sarah out of her matrimonial home and take over her husband? She was a sub planter. A husband snatcher, but she failed and ended up being thrown out in disgrace.

When you look into the core of Islam, you'll see that sub planting trait. Always seeking to steal and take over what belongs to another.


Islam enjoins Muslims to lay low, pretend to be friends with non Muslims, until their number increases then they can rise up, strike and kill the non muslims, then take over what doesn't belong to them. It started with Hagar.

(Apples falls close to Apple trees).

They know that your property belongs to you, but they believe they can by subtility or force take it from you. They justify their theft by saying, everything belongs to Allah.

Checkout how they try to take everything away from the Jews. It began with the Mother of Islam, Hagar, the eternal Slave.

Come chop, she want come take over the house.

The only thing they can't claim is the covenant.

All the Jewish Prominent men are said to have been Muslims. Starting from Adam, even when the koran says Muhammed was the very first Muslim.

Jesus was a Muslim, but none of his Apostles were Muslims. Mary the mother of Jesus was a Muslim, but Joseph was not. John the Baptist was not.

[size=18pt]The Jewish Temple built by King Solomon stood on Mount Moriah where God asked Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac, today, Islam claims that the one Sacrificed there was Ismail, hence, during the time of Jewish exile, move in there and build a Mosque, bringing to fulfilment the Prophecy of Prophet Daniel. [/size]

And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Daniel:9:27

[size=18pt]Islam is an Abomination. The Mosque in that Holy Place, is an abomination. A temple of an Idol Hubal/Allah is an Abomination unto Yahweh and it causes Spiritual desolation. But God allowed it, to keep the Jews from resuming their daily sacrifices until the time appointed.

All these are the things Yahweh saw that Ismail and his descendants will do, thereby attracting God's curse on themselves.

Hagar was a Rebel. Ismail was a rebel. Muhammed was a rebel, and Muslims everywhere today are rebels. [/size]

reallest:
See dodging

plappville:
Take the bible for what it says about a people. You dont have to call God names. Do you think the arabs are a blessed people? I no dey talk of oil here oo

Hagar’s Son Blessed or Cursed? (Genesis 16:10-12)

The Angel of the Lord gives a pronouncement about the child in her womb. What did God think about that child? What would his future look like?

As we look at the promises given by the Angel of the Lord, let’s ask if they are blessings or curses.

1) “I will increase your descendants so much that they will be too numerous to count.” (v 10)

The promise to Abraham was the he would be the father of many nations and this promise of blessing Ishmael’s lineage is affirmed in Genesis 17:20 and partially fulfilled in Genesis 25:13-16. Hagar is the only women in Scripture to whom God gives such a promise of multiplication of seed.[2] This certainly was a significant promise of blessing to a pregnant slave girl.

2) “You will give birth to a son. You shall name him Ishmael, for the Lord has hear of your misery.” (v 11).

How many birth announcements are in the Bible? How many are named by God? The promise to Hagar was that she would have a son and his name means “God hears”. What has God heard? He says he has heard her misery. What gracious care for this slave girl alone in the desert. It certainly was a promise of blessing.

3) “He will be a wild donkey of a man; his hand will be against everyone and everyone’s hand against him, and he will live in hostility toward all his brothers.” (v 12).

To our western ears this does not look much like a promise but maybe an insult and perhaps a curse. We need to remember that Hagar is much closer to Bedouin culture than we are. No one today likes to be called a “donkey”,yet in desert culture a wild donkey communicates freedom and the ability to survive against very harsh elements. In Job 39:5-8 God describes a wild donkey as those that go free and survive in the desert (Job 24:5 also refers to wild donkeys in the desert). To Hagar the slave, this would have been a promise and not a curse. Even though she may not be free, he promised that her son would be!

I will leave the idea of “hostility toward all his brothers” for the next post. This phrase deserves special attention in looking at what this means in relationship to the lineage of Isaac.

The Result So Far

Let me close by saying that at this point in our study we need to go beyond our own bias of reading into Scripture a negative view of Hagar and Ishmael. The pronouncement given to Hagar by the Angel of the Lord would have been a blessing and not a curse. There is more to the story, but for now let’s appreciate the grace of God to this struggling and vulnerable servant girl.

Despite the fact that Ishmael was born out of disobedience and that God’s plan of salvation of the world will be accomplished via Isaac, God did not turn his back toward Ishmael. God did not abandon Ishmael. God did not curse Ishmael. On the contrary: there are several indications from Scripture that show God’s love, concern and compassion, and we do well to look at these.

udatso:
What baffles me is the fact that you do not realise how grevious this statement is which can't be biblically supported.
So far, there isnt a verse where God expliciltely lays curse on Ishmael. You are the one trying to give your interpretations.
check out this link
and here
In fact in the second link, I found this post below very interesting

The links and quotes above are from your christian brethren. In fact the first link written by a very prominent christian had this to say


I stopped the discussion with analice cos she started speaking from both sides of her mouth (telling me Ishmael was cursed and also maintaining he wasn't cursed). Whenever Islam is involved it's difficult for most Christians to be objective.

Take a look at those links and see how this claim of yours is insulting to the Almighty God, the Merciful, The source of Love. ......

A word of advice: Do not let your hatred for Islam turn you to blasphemer in your own faith.

plappville:
Havé I argued that God did not kept his promise to Ishmael as in making him a great nation? Am sure You do understood the content of the OP but trying to divert it.

The action of the Arabians today cannot be ignored. They claimed to be descendants of Ishmael therefore thier violent action is definitely rooted from thier ancestor. Looking at the previous biblical verses concerning Ishmael, one will easily understand why the Arabs are what they are today.

A people who kill to promote thier God. A people whom thier only aim is to dominate the world by violence. This cannot be a blessing but a cursed people because they see no evil in thier actions. They are blind, thinking they are the right people that worship the right God. They are living in deception.



What do you think about Genesis 21:12 ? Can you tell us why God was on Sarah's side? God told Abraham to send Hagar and Ishmael away. Why would God support Serah's action?

Its funny you are referring me to a Muslim site...

udatso:
actually i do. you are trying to convince your audience that ishmael was cursed by God. Or am i misssing somethig?

We cant keep going round in circles. You might have the time for that but clearly i dont

i gave you TWO LINKS. Which of these sites is a muslim site?

plappville:
Ishmael Cursed?

The Angel of God gives a pronouncement about the child in Hagars womb.

(Genesis 16:10-12 ) 10 “I will increase your descendants so much that they will be too numerous to count.”


11 “You will give birth to a son. You shall name him Ishmael, for the Lord has hear of your misery.”


12 “He will be a wild donkey of a man; his hand will be against everyone and everyone’s hand against him, and he will live in hostility toward all his brothers.”

Did God cursed Ishmael Seeing what is happening today. You will conclude that The so-called Arab people are cursed through Ishmael they kill others and also kill themselves. People hate them because they hate others. They like violence. Thier children live and grow up in a violent environment. They see nothing wrong in it. What exactly is this statement from God . Curse or blessing?

Auki:
Hagar was in misery yet God curse Ismael..

What Ishmael did for God to curse him( innocent child)?
Did Ishmael curse also follow his decedent?

A just and loving God will not do that.

I believe this is one of those fabricated stories that made it into the Bible.

Jews committed more atrocities than any nation.

Who killed prophet sent by God?

Wealth and Nobel is not indication of being blessed. Pharaoh wealth and pyramids, Mosses left no pyramid. Mosses was successful and Pharoah was curse?

plappville:
Do you doubt he was not? How do you explain the character of His descendants?



What circle? Please tell me why did God support Sarah's
Decision?

udatso:
If you are going to ascribe every bad action of an individual to the descendant's curse from God, then i wonder how you can still open that mouth and call your God merciful and All Loving

plappville:
You did not answer the question stop dodging.

Individual ke. We are talking about arabs/Muslims historical background here.

udatso:
jeromejnr and scholar8200 have all told you he wasnt cursed. so asking me about sarah is to start debatng again how ishmael was cursed or not. Spo if you cant accept explanantions from your won brothers, is it me (a muslim) you will now accept explanation from? This is why i said i cant keep going in circles. This thread has ended long time ago with more valid prooof that he wasnt cursed. So you can keep going in circles but i wont be part of it

udatso:
jeromejnr and scholar8200 have all told you he wasnt cursed. so asking me about sarah is to start debatng again how ishmael was cursed or not. Spo if you cant accept explanantions from your won brothers, is it me (a muslim) you will now accept explanation from? This is why i said i cant keep going in circles. This thread has ended long time ago with more valid prooof that he wasnt cursed. So you can keep going in circles but i wont be part of it

plappville:
What is this one talking?

reallest:
She saying d truth

plappville:
The truth in this link?

http://www.frontpagemag.com/fpm/263304/your-fault-why-western-women-get-raped-muslims-raymond-ibrahim

Or what truth?

reallest:
D truth dat ur God [Yahweh] is ineffectual Buffon to have allow dat to happen

plappville:
Your signature is Pathetic!

reallest:
My siggy is fact so deal with it

plappville:
Ok sir/ma..

reallest: