Hello All,

I don't want to start without declaring my belief system so no one will be misled. I am an agnostic.

I am creating this topic to present one of the most feared and darkest topics that religious and non religious would not like to ponder which is the possibility of an after life and what awaits man there.

In life I have come to accept one fact which is " our deliberations and anxiety hardly or never have an effect over a situation".

For example, think of deciding to take a HIV test. I did one earlier this year, one thing that is unique to all people willing to take the test is ANXIETY.

You deliberate and deliberate over the last time you had sex and whether you were safe, you even think of the last time you went to a barbing salon[ for guys] and the possibility of being infected by a clipper.

You even browse on the internet for possible symptoms and try to recollect if you have experienced any of them since you had sex. The ironical thing about all these deliberations and anxiety is that subconsciously your mind tries to use them to reassure and if possible remove the virus. It can be easier for the mind to be anxious about this issue and the mind creates levers of hope that it hangs onto.

The reality is that when you decide to do such a test, the result is in your blood stream in real time, your anxiety and worries doesn't change what's in your bloodstream, the lab techs just take a peek into what is already there and what is already too late to change. The same thing can be said about checking ones genotype, blood group, hepatitis status, kidney status and any other medical checkup. Most times you have no control over it, because you are only trying to check what's there already but it doesn't change the fact that you will try to subconsciously exert or rig the system with psychological levers.

Now coming to the crux of this topic,
Life after death or the absence of life after death is something mankind has no control over. We have heard of numerous people experiencing NDEs whereby they go to heaven see Jesus and even go to hell and come back.
The funny thing is that we can't use those experiences as proof of the existence of the afterlife cause on many occasions they are subjective to ones predominant beliefs on earth. There are hindi NDEs, Muslim NDEs and even Buddhist NDEs.

All the documented NDEs vary by large details within religions and comparing across religions. Most of them have a similar detail of seeing a very bright light but how true or universal can this be since a sizeable amount of them also fail to report seeing a bright light. Some people are revived and they don't have NDEs. Looking at it, its quite difficult to pinpoint a uniform experience amongst revived patients and clearly not all have experiences at all.

Now coming to religion, we all have that desire to live a bit longer or to reunite with that long lost loved one. Religions come in here as the hero to save the day and give you eternal hope with a price of believing their story and aligning to their moral authority here with the aim of securing a good spot in the afterlife.

That seems like an irresistible offer. But wait and think deeply, Religion is similar to the mental exercise your mind embarks on when about to take a HIV test or when about to confirm a truth that is very critical. You hang on to it with hope but just like that HIV test, you can't see your bloodstream or cells with your naked eye and you can't know till you cross the line and take the test so also you don't know any body that has been dead for 3 years or more and came back from the morgue to give you details of the afterlife. You can only hope but in reality the best thing you can do is to get your mind off it and take the test. In religions case, the best thing you can do is live a reasonable life and wait for the end. Just like discovering the mental exercises and anxiety you face is pointless when your blood is drawn to get the HIV result, religion is also pointless cause what is already waiting after death can't be changed in any way.

Now this is when religious arguments come in

Arguments like:

1. Why don't you be safe and just believe in something so when you die and meet god at least you might be safe and if there is no god you know you didn't lose. What we know as Pascals wager. The problem with this is that we have over 100 religions in the world now. Almost all religions are exclusivist believing their way is the only way that means you can't combine positions[ accumulations in betting]. You must pick one position which becomes very risky and poses no advantage. Staking your claim with 1 out of 100 is a bit less riskier than 0 over 100.

2. You also hear arguments like I know I am right because of faith . The problem with this is that most religions have that blind faith too. Its now like a game of shoot and freeze. So the first religion that is sold to you and sealed in your mind by blind faith becomes the only one you listen to thereby locking you to it and only it.
People also don't consider that if there was a god, what if the gods message had so been altered and what it really wanted you to do on earth was never revealed by man. There are millions of possibilities of what that god would want you to do and one of those possibilities would be god wanting man to be quiet and live peacefully and leave the earth. The possibilities are too much to explore in this life.
That's why the only reasonable option is to get your mind off a possible afterlife and live your life to the fullest.
Remember that with all our bickering and anxiety and attempts to lobby supernatural powers to secure a reasonable afterlife, we have no control or knowledge of what is there or not till when we face it.

Freethinkers in the house, I am waiting for your contributions.

Thanks

HCpaul:
You should instead call it the fabric of the unknown. There is nothing to fear in what you don't know, you should instead aspire to know the unknown.

That it is unknown doesn't imply that it cannot be known but just that it hasn't been known.

There is no fear in the unknown.

I understand your point.

But it is virtually impossible to know beyond any reasonable doubt the nature or existence of the afterlife. That is the curse of mankind, we have evolved to dominate the world and to fulfil our deepest desires but death comes when we might not want.

How can you ascertain what's beyond the line?

LiberaDeus:


I understand your point.

But it is virtually impossible to know beyond any reasonable doubt the nature or existence of the afterlife. That is the curse of mankind, we have evolved to dominate the world and to fulfil our deepest desires but death comes when we might not want.

How can you ascertain what's beyond the line?

simple truth is that, you can't... there are too many beliefs of the afterlife both within a religion and from different religions. one cannot be ignorant enough to say that his view/belief is the only true one and all others are wrong. take for example in Christianity we have purgatory, eternal torment, annihilation, universalism etc.. talk less of other religions.. hard truth is that, when you die, you'll find out.

simple as that.

Wilgrea7:


simple truth is that, you can't... there are too many beliefs of the afterlife both within a religion and from different religions. one cannot be ignorant enough to say that his view/belief is the only true one and all others are wrong. take for example in Christianity we have purgatory, eternal torment, annihilation, universalism etc.. talk less of other religions.. hard truth is that, when you die, you'll find out.

simple as that.

Why is it hard for we human beings to just accept that we might not exist again after death. That seems like the most reasonable.

But accepting that is easier said than done. Death is too abrupt, too sudden and life seem too short.
But come to think of it, maybe we see life as short because we have been spending our energy trying to figure out how we shall live forever instead of focusing on the moment. Maybe if we focused more on the present we could suck out all the possible joy from a 24 hour day. Just my thoughts.

In my years of agnosticism, I have come to lose the fear of meeting any of the popular gods of religion. Its as if I am just sure that a god or creator won't be that petty to want to judge humanity based on belief. This position seems to the position that's strongest in my mind. These religions have helped to debunk themselves, they have given all the clues for those who want to reason, clues that show that they can't be correct due to their contradictions and if they are wrong in this life then a no brainer that they ain't even a possibility in the next if there is a next.

LiberaDeus:


Why is it hard for we human beings to just accept that we might not exist again after death. That seems like the most reasonable.

But accepting that is easier said than done. Death is too abrupt, too sudden and life seem too short.
But come to think of it, maybe we see life as short because we have been spending our energy trying to figure out how we shall live forever instead of focusing on the moment. Maybe if we focused more on the present we could suck out all the possible joy from a 24 hour day. Just my thoughts.

In my years of agnosticism, I have come to lose the fear of meeting any of the popular gods of religion. Its as if I am just sure that a god or creator won't be that petty to want to judge humanity based on belief. This position seems to the position that's strongest in my mind. These religions have helped to debunk themselves, they have given all the clues for those who want to reason, clues that show that they can't be correct due to their contradictions and if they are wrong in this life then a no brainer that they ain't even a possibility in the next if there is a next.

sir, we're saying the same thing... no one is sure and no one has the monopoly of being right.. whichever is the right view of the afterlife or if there is an afterlife, we'll find out when we die

Wilgrea7:


sir, we're saying the same thing... no one is sure and no one has the monopoly of being right .. whichever is the right view of the afterlife or if there is an afterlife, we'll find out when we die

I tell u dis broda, some people here and in my family, neighborhood thinks they're perfectly correct and wants u to join them in their preconceived self-believed correctness. Hence u see them go about trying too hard to convince u about their faiths.


Was once like that, but now it all makes no sense to me.
When I meet people, I see the person not the religious views of that person. What help will that do anyone.

My word, mind ur biz, unless u want me to rebuff u n ur religion if u tell me I'll go to hell just as a preacher I invited into my own house did to me yesterday.
Thinking I'll not entertain any preacher anymore, he was just so arrogant and annoying.

edogho:

I tell u dis broda, some people here and in my family, neighborhood thinks they're perfectly correct and wants u to join them in their preconceived self-believed correctness. Hence u see them go about trying too hard to convince u about their faiths.


Was once like that, but now it all makes no sense to me.
When I meet people, I see the person not the religious views of that person. What help will that do anyone.

My word, mind ur biz, unless u want me to rebuff u n ur religion if u tell me I'll go to hell just as a preacher I invited into my own house did to me yesterday.
Thinking I'll not entertain any preacher anymore, he was just so arrogant and annoying.

Sense!!!

LiberaDeus, it is obvious you haven't done a thorough investigation into this matter as an increasing number of doctors all over the world without any religious affiliation are of the opinion that life continues after death. They came to this conclusion through the experiences of patients they have performed surgeries on who flat lined in the process but who, after recovering, described exactly what the doctors did or said. Not every OBE leads to a heaven or hell experience.

Life after death is no longer a matter of religious doctrines or beliefs. It is a fact that medical science attests positively to through years of research, experimentation and data collation.

skeendyke:
LiberaDeus, it is obvious you haven't done a thorough investigation into this matter as an increasing number of doctors all over the world without any religious affiliation are of the opinion that life continues after death. They came to this conclusion through the experiences of patients they have performed surgeries on who flat lined in the process but who, after recovering, described exactly what the doctors did or said. Not every OBE leads to a heaven or hell experience.

Life after death is no longer a matter of religious doctrines or beliefs. It is a fact that medical science attests positively to through years of research, experimentation and data collation.

Don't jump to conclusions immediately.

A high number of neuroscientists accept the fact that consciousness doesn't end when brain or neural activity seems to be over. That is not definite proof of life after death and even if you feel its proof, what type of life exists after death?

If you are going to follow scientific research then follow it totally not going back and forth between science and faith.
Scientists have conducted numerous experiments on life after death and the unanimous conclusion is that there is a strong possibility of consciousness after clinical death, now if you are going to cite their conclusions as fact then follow them all through because the same science doesn't affirm your version of an after life containing heaven and hell.

HCpaul:
You should instead call it the fabric of the unknown. There is nothing to fear in what you don't know, you should instead aspire to know the unknown.

That it is unknown doesn't imply that it cannot be known but just that it hasn't been known.

There is no fear in the unknown.

I feel the bolded is wrong.
Humans inherently fear why they do not know.
So do most organism.

LiberaDeus:


Don't jump to conclusions immediately.

A high number of neuroscientists accept the fact that consciousness doesn't end when brain or neural activity seems to be over. That is not definite proof of life after death and even if you feel its proof, what type of life exists after death?

If you are going to follow scientific research then follow it totally not going back and forth between science and faith.
Scientists have conducted numerous experiments on life after death and the unanimous conclusion is that there is a strong possibility of consciousness after clinical death, now if you are going to cite their conclusions as fact then follow them all through because the same science doesn't affirm your version of an after life containing heaven and hell.

Most of the experiments are flawed since they were mostly based on the patients reporting some form of awareness after there heart stopped beating (its illegal to kill someone even for a short period so they had to rely on medical reports from different patients in different places under uncontrolled environments) and after the limited time to which the brain could still process information. There could be a mountain of error with this kind of research method.

And there isn't even an acceptable definition of what death truly means.
60 years ago immediately your heart stopped beating you were pronounced dead.
Now you have to wait till at atleast 6 minutes before you're clinically dead.
Also some people are brain dead but there heart still beats are they dead?

There's a method of cryogenically preserving a human brain in the hopes that the person can be reconstituted in the future, say it is done in the future, was the person ever really dead? Or was the person just placed on pause. The definition of death keeps changing.

But I for one think, that after our brain is gone there is no more us, whatever is left isn't really us, and i dont believe there's any after life. Not unless its on our own consciousness, like the after life is created by our minds, not some interconnected system.

People find it hard to accept that once they die its the end, they ask
How can there be nothing?
Where will I go to after death?

No one simply asks
Where was i before i was born?
Because the answer would be nowhere.

If you where nowhere before you were born why do you think you will be somewhere after you die.

Anyway this is just my two cents.
I could be wrong
Maybe we get reincarnated as plants or animals or other humans.
Or we wonder around the earth like ghosts incapable of influencing anything.

But I do truly believe that we only live once and we have to make the best of it

edogho:

I tell u dis broda, some people here and in my family, neighborhood thinks they're perfectly correct and wants u to join them in their preconceived self-believed correctness. Hence u see them go about trying too hard to convince u about their faiths.

they may be correct to an extent... but it doesn't mean they're 100% correct.. its wrong to enforce one's beliefs on others.

Was once like that, but now it all makes no sense to me.
When I meet people, I see the person not the religious views of that person. What help will that do anyone.

ok..

My word, mind ur biz, unless u want me to rebuff u n ur religion if u tell me I'll go to hell just as a preacher I invited into my own house did to me yesterday.

Thinking I'll not entertain any preacher anymore, he was just so arrogant and annoying.

most of these guys are ignorant of the damage their forceful views give

I did not do anything before it was given to me....i dont think if there is another it will be a function of what i do..i am just going to groove this one by partying hard....i wont cause any harn to no body though...

there is no such thing as death...only a change of world..death is not the end of a line, it is a point on a circle.

LiberaDeus:


Don't jump to conclusions immediately.

A high number of neuroscientists accept the fact that consciousness doesn't end when brain or neural activity seems to be over. That is not definite proof of life after death and even if you feel its proof, what type of life exists after death?

If you are going to follow scientific research then follow it totally not going back and forth between science and faith.
Scientists have conducted numerous experiments on life after death and the unanimous conclusion is that there is a strong possibility of consciousness after clinical death, now if you are going to cite their conclusions as fact then follow them all through because the same science doesn't affirm your version of an after life containing heaven and hell.

clinical death..is not DEATH..

If they were dead...they would be organ donors!..thats a fact!

Wilgrea7:


they may be correct to an extent... but it doesn't mean they're 100% correct.. its wrong to enforce one's beliefs on others.




ok..






most of these guys are ignorant of the damage their forceful views give

Maybe correct to an extent?

How about "maybe wrong"?
No one is correct until they prove beyond any reasonable doubt that they are correct.

Just as the op stated good broda, as far as anything beyond the physical is concerned, NO ONE CAN BE TRULY SURE.

And I'm sure no one can force anything down my throat or head, u must contend with me and win first, but over my corpse, lols

edogho:


Maybe correct to an extent?

How about "maybe wrong"?
No one is correct until they prove beyond any reasonable doubt that they are correct.

Just as the op stated good broda, as far as anything beyond the physical is concerned, NO ONE CAN BE TRULY SURE.

And I'm sure no one can force anything down my throat or head, u must contend with me and win first, but over my corpse, lols

no go kill pastor one day o

do you know the experience of animals when they die and come back again,what they tell each other?

worthy thread Liberadeus