₦airaland Forum

Legal icon, Aare Afe Babalola, speaks on corruption and the Nigerian judiciary among other issues, in this interview with KAMARUDEEN OGUNDELE

What do you make of the National Judicial Council’s recall of judges accused of corrupt practices?

Well, we are governed by a Constitution and under the constitution, a man is presumed innocent until he is found guilty. The National Judicial Council has the right to recall the Judges accused of corruption because the court of law has not found them guilty. If a man is not guilty, he would wear the gown of innocence. The NJC can’t hold that they are guilty.



How would you rate the Federal Government in terms of putting together a compelling case against the accused judges?

Federal Government doesn’t prosecute. But if it is about the Attorney General of the Federation and Minister of Justice, I may have something to say. But let it be stated clearly that most of these cases in court were initiated by anti-graft agencies including the Economic and Financial Crimes Commission and the Independent Corrupt Practices and Other Related Offences Commission that have powers to prosecute; not by the federal government as such. So, I will not be part of those who will blame the federal government for the way cases are being handled. On the contrary, I will look at how all these agencies handle these matters. Briefly, criminal cases, from my experience, are very difficult areas to convict anybody. Our law is that you must prove beyond all reasonable doubts before you convict a person. There was a young man who was alleged to have killed a young girl near Manchester in England. The man pleaded his innocence throughout his trial but he was found guilty and was hanged. Eight years after, the real killer came out and said that the man was killed wrongly. Was it possible for the court to restore the man to life? That was why the English law was changed. Another point is that a good and competent lawyer does not go by facts alone. He allows the prosecution to put his case and goes to attack the case of the prosecution by picking holes in the case. Once you can pick a hole in the case, your no- case-submission would be that they have not proved the case beyond reasonable doubts. So, I will therefore not say that anti-graft agencies are not doing their best. When you have a good lawyer, you can always pick holes in prosecution cases.

If lawyers are capitalising on holes in criminal cases, don’t you think it is an indication that the agencies are not manned by competent lawyers?

There was a time that people thought I was a specialist in criminal cases because it was so easy for me to win cases. Let me tell you, there are cases where my clients had confessed in writing that they committed murder and I got them acquitted. The fact that you made a confessional statement doesn’t mean you are guilty in law. There are other things that lawyers and judges look at. I have acquitted many clients who have made confessional statements because of the legal requirement. That is the correct position of the law. There is what we call justice according to facts and justice according to law. The facts may be in your favour but a good lawyer will make you fail. That is justice according to law. A court will not give judgment according to facts in law but according to law.

How will the continued efforts by the Federal Government to prosecute the accused judges affect the output of the judges now that they have been asked to go back to work?

Once they are charged to court, certainly they cannot continue to preside. Normally, they will be on suspension pending the conclusion of trial. A mere allegation or report in the media that a judge was found with some money or whatever does not mean that he is guilty. You have to listen to his own side. You should not convict judges based on newspaper proceedings. We are doing a lot of disservice to judiciary, they are also human beings. So I don’t believe in newspaper trial. Once they are charged to court, common sense and convention demand they should step aside because people would not have confidence in them. To me, anybody charged to court even in private businesses should be suspended and probably be paid half salary. So it is improper for them to continue to sit if they are facing criminal charges elsewhere.

Are you suggesting that the cases they are handling should be transferred to other judges?

As long as criminal cases are hanging on their necks in the court of law, they should not handle cases.

What is your reaction to the acquittal of Senate President Bukola Saraki at the Code of Conduct Tribunal?

He was charged for breaches and he pleaded innocence and he got some committed lawyers to argue his case and the court found out that he has not breached any code of conduct. To me, that is the end of the matter. They can only re-arrest him if they found new evidences relating to a fresh charge not the old charge upon which the CCT delivered its judgment. They have to justify that before the court of law; otherwise, it would amount to abuse of court process.

Do you agree with most Nigerians that justice for the high and mighty bears no resemblance to the justice of the average Nigerian?

This is a question I have listened to many times before. The same case if handled by an incompetent lawyer may result in failure but if handled by a competent lawyer, you get a different result. We have different classes of people in the society: the very rich, the rich and the poor. When the very rich or rich engaged the service of a competent lawyer who charges higher fees, the poor will probably go for a lawyer who is less experienced and whose fee is lower. So, to that extent, the mighty is in a position to get a favourable judgement while the poor may not. That explains that there is different in judgement for the mighty financially and the poor financially.

So it is not about purchase of judgment.

It isn’t. It is about the purchase of competent lawyer by the mighty. It is like a market the mighty buys the organic vegetable while the poor buys the inorganic vegetable. Law profession is a noble one. The nobility of the work can be found in the competence and non-competence of the lawyer. That is where you have the difference between someone winning and someone not wining.

We have had situations where people were jailed many years for stealing phones while cases against some ex-governors and top politicians have been dragging for many years now. Do you think this has helped in building a trust in the nation’s justice system?

There goes again the competence of lawyers. The governors have the money to hire competent lawyers; you know them (competent ones) yourself. You read about them in the newspapers all the time. If you go back to 80s and as recent as 10 years ago, you will see that I was hired virtually from all parts of the country. Flying from Calabar to Jos, Maiduguri, Yola because they were aware of my competence. So if the governors hired competent lawyers, they get results. There is nothing wrong in that.

What is your reaction to the Economic and Financial Crimes Commission’s decision to reopen an investigation on the Chairman of the CCT?

Nothing stops them from investigating him. Nothing. That is proper.

Don’t you think it is a case of witchunt because he failed to convict the senate president?

There will be many schools of thought about that. If the matter had been investigated in the past, there is no point reinvestigating him.

If you were leading the prosecution side in the case against Saraki, what would you do differently?

That will depend on the facts in the matter. I’m not in possession of the facts in the matter, so I can’t speak on that.

Why is it that, contrary to what obtains in more developed democracies, Nigerian politicians fail to resign when they are caught up in one scandal or the other?

There are many things peculiar to this country. In civilised countries, a person will resign as soon as such allegation is made against him. It is not that area alone that we have our peculiar factor. Recently I delivered a lecture at the Obafemi Awolowo University and pointed out some factors which include the failure of a rich man to support the university. Failure of the alumni to support their universities, whereas in other countries, the money realised from the yearly donation by alumni and public spirited individuals is more than two-third of the money spent yearly by those universities. So it is a peculiar factor.

Is this appropriate?

I’m an advocate of change of attitude by Nigerians in many areas, not only in universities affairs but also public service. It is wrong for one to be accused and yet remain in power. You don’t have to wait.

Given the public outcry against Dino Melaye, particularly in his constituency, do you think it’s time for the senator to resign?

He was duly elected by the people and there is provision in the law. If the people are not satisfied, they can recall him. It is for his constituency to decide whether to recall him or not.

How would you rate President Muhammadu Buhari’s anti-corruption war?

I think every Nigerian knows what we are going through in the hands of corruption. He is doing his very best. The day we go back to what Nigeria was like when I was young in the 50s, that day Nigeria will be a great country. That was a time that when going to school we were able to buy fruits from the shelves in the absence of the owner. We will put money there and take our balance, yet nobody was stealing. Corruption started gradually and crept into the system. There was a time people thought charging five per cent was corruption. I defended a minister in 1967 after the coup and the man was acquitted. Today, corruption has assumed a huge proportion that drastic measure ought to be adopted by any serious government. To that extent the government is doing the right thing to stamp it out. But let me warn that arresting people is not the answer, imprison one is not the answer. The answer is to go back to elementary and secondary schools as well as tertiary institutions and change the mind of the youths. The only change that can bring permanent change about corruption is to change the minds of the youths. Because the government wiped out the teaching of religion from schools, we are now the victims of all sorts of crimes. Let us return teaching of morals to school. It is very important. That is what we are trying to do in my universities here. Buhari will not attain his lofty aims of fighting corruption by jailing people. Let us go back to the basis. Let the schools and religious centres do more; let the government functionaries change their attitude.

http://punchng.com/fg-should-restructure-nigeria-before-the-next-election-afe-babalola/

Okay.

Reasonable people are still talking.Where is that slowpoke APC's Presidential adviser on Prosecution-Okoi Obono-Obla that was talking shit of "restructuring not politically & constitutionally possible" yesterday? Olodo man.

lawyers are among our problem in Nigeria.

PPL OF INTELECTUAL ARE SPEAKING NOT THE LYKS OF FALANA AND SAGAY.

t

SURELY AFONJA MUSLIMS WILL CALL FOR YOUR HEAD SIR

what will destroy Nigeria wont be the agitations in the SE but the hypocrisy of this govt and her supporters who think that asking questions and making demands amounts to being anti-GMB and a supporter of corrution.
A word is enough for the wise

IJOBA2:
SURELY AFONJA MUSLIMS WILL CALL FOR YOUR HEAD SIR

Are using SIR for the same Afonja Christians being caused and abused by your chauvinistic god lord and saviour,nnamdi kanu:

nurex01:
Legal icon, Aare Afe Babalola, speaks on corruption and the Nigerian judiciary among other issues, in this interview with KAMARUDEEN OGUNDELE

What do you make of the National Judicial Council’s recall of judges accused of corrupt practices?

Well, we are governed by a Constitution and under the constitution, a man is presumed innocent until he is found guilty. The National Judicial Council has the right to recall the Judges accused of corruption because the court of law has not found them guilty. If a man is not guilty, he would wear the gown of innocence. The NJC can’t hold that they are guilty.



How would you rate the Federal Government in terms of putting together a compelling case against the accused judges?

Federal Government doesn’t prosecute. But if it is about the Attorney General of the Federation and Minister of Justice, I may have something to say. But let it be stated clearly that most of these cases in court were initiated by anti-graft agencies including the Economic and Financial Crimes Commission and the Independent Corrupt Practices and Other Related Offences Commission that have powers to prosecute; not by the federal government as such. So, I will not be part of those who will blame the federal government for the way cases are being handled. On the contrary, I will look at how all these agencies handle these matters. Briefly, criminal cases, from my experience, are very difficult areas to convict anybody. Our law is that you must prove beyond all reasonable doubts before you convict a person. There was a young man who was alleged to have killed a young girl near Manchester in England. The man pleaded his innocence throughout his trial but he was found guilty and was hanged. Eight years after, the real killer came out and said that the man was killed wrongly. Was it possible for the court to restore the man to life? That was why the English law was changed. Another point is that a good and competent lawyer does not go by facts alone. He allows the prosecution to put his case and goes to attack the case of the prosecution by picking holes in the case. Once you can pick a hole in the case, your no- case-submission would be that they have not proved the case beyond reasonable doubts. So, I will therefore not say that anti-graft agencies are not doing their best. When you have a good lawyer, you can always pick holes in prosecution cases.

If lawyers are capitalising on holes in criminal cases, don’t you think it is an indication that the agencies are not manned by competent lawyers?

There was a time that people thought I was a specialist in criminal cases because it was so easy for me to win cases. Let me tell you, there are cases where my clients had confessed in writing that they committed murder and I got them acquitted. The fact that you made a confessional statement doesn’t mean you are guilty in law. There are other things that lawyers and judges look at. I have acquitted many clients who have made confessional statements because of the legal requirement. That is the correct position of the law. There is what we call justice according to facts and justice according to law. The facts may be in your favour but a good lawyer will make you fail. That is justice according to law. A court will not give judgment according to facts in law but according to law.

How will the continued efforts by the Federal Government to prosecute the accused judges affect the output of the judges now that they have been asked to go back to work?

Once they are charged to court, certainly they cannot continue to preside. Normally, they will be on suspension pending the conclusion of trial. A mere allegation or report in the media that a judge was found with some money or whatever does not mean that he is guilty. You have to listen to his own side. You should not convict judges based on newspaper proceedings. We are doing a lot of disservice to judiciary, they are also human beings. So I don’t believe in newspaper trial. Once they are charged to court, common sense and convention demand they should step aside because people would not have confidence in them. To me, anybody charged to court even in private businesses should be suspended and probably be paid half salary. So it is improper for them to continue to sit if they are facing criminal charges elsewhere.

Are you suggesting that the cases they are handling should be transferred to other judges?

As long as criminal cases are hanging on their necks in the court of law, they should not handle cases.

What is your reaction to the acquittal of Senate President Bukola Saraki at the Code of Conduct Tribunal?

He was charged for breaches and he pleaded innocence and he got some committed lawyers to argue his case and the court found out that he has not breached any code of conduct. To me, that is the end of the matter. They can only re-arrest him if they found new evidences relating to a fresh charge not the old charge upon which the CCT delivered its judgment. They have to justify that before the court of law; otherwise, it would amount to abuse of court process.

Do you agree with most Nigerians that justice for the high and mighty bears no resemblance to the justice of the average Nigerian?

This is a question I have listened to many times before. The same case if handled by an incompetent lawyer may result in failure but if handled by a competent lawyer, you get a different result. We have different classes of people in the society: the very rich, the rich and the poor. When the very rich or rich engaged the service of a competent lawyer who charges higher fees, the poor will probably go for a lawyer who is less experienced and whose fee is lower. So, to that extent, the mighty is in a position to get a favourable judgement while the poor may not. That explains that there is different in judgement for the mighty financially and the poor financially.

So it is not about purchase of judgment.

It isn’t. It is about the purchase of competent lawyer by the mighty. It is like a market the mighty buys the organic vegetable while the poor buys the inorganic vegetable. Law profession is a noble one. The nobility of the work can be found in the competence and non-competence of the lawyer. That is where you have the difference between someone winning and someone not wining.

We have had situations where people were jailed many years for stealing phones while cases against some ex-governors and top politicians have been dragging for many years now. Do you think this has helped in building a trust in the nation’s justice system?

There goes again the competence of lawyers. The governors have the money to hire competent lawyers; you know them (competent ones) yourself. You read about them in the newspapers all the time. If you go back to 80s and as recent as 10 years ago, you will see that I was hired virtually from all parts of the country. Flying from Calabar to Jos, Maiduguri, Yola because they were aware of my competence. So if the governors hired competent lawyers, they get results. There is nothing wrong in that.

What is your reaction to the Economic and Financial Crimes Commission’s decision to reopen an investigation on the Chairman of the CCT?

Nothing stops them from investigating him. Nothing. That is proper.

Don’t you think it is a case of witchunt because he failed to convict the senate president?

There will be many schools of thought about that. If the matter had been investigated in the past, there is no point reinvestigating him.

If you were leading the prosecution side in the case against Saraki, what would you do differently?

That will depend on the facts in the matter. I’m not in possession of the facts in the matter, so I can’t speak on that.

Why is it that, contrary to what obtains in more developed democracies, Nigerian politicians fail to resign when they are caught up in one scandal or the other?

There are many things peculiar to this country. In civilised countries, a person will resign as soon as such allegation is made against him. It is not that area alone that we have our peculiar factor. Recently I delivered a lecture at the Obafemi Awolowo University and pointed out some factors which include the failure of a rich man to support the university. Failure of the alumni to support their universities, whereas in other countries, the money realised from the yearly donation by alumni and public spirited individuals is more than two-third of the money spent yearly by those universities. So it is a peculiar factor.

Is this appropriate?

I’m an advocate of change of attitude by Nigerians in many areas, not only in universities affairs but also public service. It is wrong for one to be accused and yet remain in power. You don’t have to wait.

Given the public outcry against Dino Melaye, particularly in his constituency, do you think it’s time for the senator to resign?

He was duly elected by the people and there is provision in the law. If the people are not satisfied, they can recall him. It is for his constituency to decide whether to recall him or not.

How would you rate President Muhammadu Buhari’s anti-corruption war?

I think every Nigerian knows what we are going through in the hands of corruption. He is doing his very best. The day we go back to what Nigeria was like when I was young in the 50s, that day Nigeria will be a great country. That was a time that when going to school we were able to buy fruits from the shelves in the absence of the owner. We will put money there and take our balance, yet nobody was stealing. Corruption started gradually and crept into the system. There was a time people thought charging five per cent was corruption. I defended a minister in 1967 after the coup and the man was acquitted. Today, corruption has assumed a huge proportion that drastic measure ought to be adopted by any serious government. To that extent the government is doing the right thing to stamp it out. But let me warn that arresting people is not the answer, imprison one is not the answer. The answer is to go back to elementary and secondary schools as well as tertiary institutions and change the mind of the youths. The only change that can bring permanent change about corruption is to change the minds of the youths. Because the government wiped out the teaching of religion from schools, we are now the victims of all sorts of crimes. Let us return teaching of morals to school. It is very important. That is what we are trying to do in my universities here. Buhari will not attain his lofty aims of fighting corruption by jailing people. Let us go back to the basis. Let the schools and religious centres do more; let the government functionaries change their attitude.

http://punchng.com/fg-should-restructure-nigeria-before-the-next-election-afe-babalola/

nurex01 !
show me where Afe Babalola call for comfab report!
are you over-soak?
feeding your fellow gullibles demi-letrate youths with cooked lie!

Another disjointed piece .
Solving corruption is all about reducing access to things to steal and harshly punishing any slight deviation from set processes .

Simply limiting bank accounts to which money can be transferred from government account will go a long way . People like those legislooter have access to cash which originates from government accounts.

Did he get permission from Afonjas?