₦airaland Forum

winner01:
A timeless/eternal Being has no beginning and no end.

Timelessness excuses a being from being created.

Something that has been existing since forever has no beginning

No beginning

No beginning

No beginning

No beginning

No beginning

If something has no beginning, it simply means it was not created.

That you ask who created God means you propose that God has a beginning. Eternity has no beginning. You can see the definition of eternal which I posted above.

It's difficult to grasp because we have never seen anything like this. Our thoughts are within the confines of time and space no matter how hard we try. It's always okay to try though.

NPComplete:
The first problem is assuming God has always existed. There's no proof for God always existing other than some verses in the bible. And we all know the bible has never been an impeccable source of information.
So that assumption is an argument from dogma.

Secondly if we are to believe that God has always existed, why is it hard to believe the universe has always existed in whatever form before it became the form we know of it now. Maybe this form we know of it is just our mental projection. And since our brains can't see beyond 3 spatial dimensions, it is plausible that our understanding of space time is skewed and limited. The universe may also be eternal for all we know.

Personally, I don't see anything wrong with God Himself having a creator. I can live with it. And I imagine it is possible we also become creators ourselves after we leave this life. It might just be that that's the essence of life. Life birthing more life. Creators creating and getting created. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that.

obinna58:
Everything that has beginning also has ending, Human created time as some kind of measurement, that kind of time you have in mind has no beginning or ending thereby real time does not exist

NPComplete:
The first problem is assuming God has always existed. There's no proof for God always existing other than some verses in the bible. And we all know the bible has never been an impeccable source of information.
So that assumption is an argument from dogma.

Secondly if we are to believe that God has always existed, why is it hard to believe the universe has always existed in whatever form before it became the form we know of it now. Maybe this form we know of it is just our mental projection. And since our brains can't see beyond 3 spatial dimensions, it is plausible that our understanding of space time is skewed and limited. The universe may also be eternal for all we know.

Personally, I don't see anything wrong with God Himself having a creator. I can live with it. And I imagine it is possible we also become creators ourselves after we leave this life. It might just be that that's the essence of life. Life birthing more life. Creators creating and getting created. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that.

hopefulLandlord:
I have never heard an atheist ask "But who created God" that was not in response to the theist question of "Who created the universe? Everything that exists has to have a creator."
"But who created God" is merely used to point out the special pleading fallacy.

It is the theists who insist that everything needs a creator, but God is exempt.

NPComplete:
Exactly the aim. At a point, we just have to stop and say we don't know. But Christians act as if they have the answer to all life's questions. And that is impossible. Some things are impossible for us to know.

walls01:
I don't know apply to only logic. from ancient man to modern man men have severally given account of God and the spiritual beings this are known fact. it was only the invent of science that brought the ignorant and I don't know part of man. science want to bend everything based on man laws whereas there are other laws that are not man's. so where science stumble on this they understand not they either say it is a lie (atheist) or I don't know ( unbelievers )

winner01:
If something comes into being, it must have been prompted by something else. A book has an author. Music has a music artist. A party has a party-thrower! All things that begin, that have a start, have a cause to their beginning.


"If a creator God needs to have been made by a creator, that creator would also need a creator who needs a creator … like an infinite chain of toppling dominos, which is an impossibility." - Bertrand Russel (1872-1970)


Today’s atheists repeat the objection, including Richard Dawkins (The God Delusion) and Philip Adams, who said,

“The great argument for God was that there had to be a Creation, a beginning. … But my objection was simple. If God was the beginning who began God?”



So who created God? Many religious people, especially Christians including myself consider this question the ultimate blasphemy. In times of inquisition, 800 years ago in Europe, this question alone could easily have gotten one killed or at least sent to the torture chambers by the powers that be of the time – the Catholic Church.

Yet today, it seems to be a legitimate and a profound question. This question must be best answered to help grow the faith of genuine enquirers and tick the conscience of honest unbelievers.
Even if one doesn't believe in God or any kind of divine being, the question remains: Why does anything exist? Why not just nothingness?

These are the ultimate existential questions and it may concern every human on earth.



Everything we observe in nature has a beginning. Theists, more specifically Christians however often object by making the claim below:

"God is in a different category, God is different from all nature and humanity and everything that exists, in that he has always existed, independent from anything he created. God is not a dependent being, but self-sufficient, self-existent.
Psalms 90:2, 1 chronicles 29:11-12, John 4:24.

Christians admit that everything has a cause with just one exception, GOD. Christians submit this because this is exactly how the Bible describes God, and how God has revealed himself to be.


While I will not be using scriptures to make my point.
It is important to note that the Bible says, “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth” (Genesis 1:1). Here God created time itself. Only One who is outside of time, that is, timeless, or eternal, could do this.

Let's leave this for a while. Almost everyone agrees that the world has a beginning. Science seems to have proven that time and space had a beginning. This fact amongst others have made some change their opinion on reality.
https://www.nairaland.com/3314364/christian-family-atheism-jesus-christ

Three scientific evidences seems to prove that the universe has a beginning. They are briefly explained in the thread above.

1. The second law of thermodynamics
2. An expanding universe
3. The cosmic background radiation

So basically.
- The universe has not always existed (the universe has a beginning)
- Time and space began with the universe (Time and space began when the universe began)


Prior to the universe, there was nothing, NO TIME, no space, nothing at all.
This implication of this is that whatever brought the universe into existence is independent of the universe, independent of time (timeless or eternal) and independent of space.


This is a serious implication. It means that :
1. Either the universe came from nothing
2. or the universe came from something
3. or we don't know what brought forth the universe.


In reality. It is impossible for nothing to produce something. At least majority of people agree with this. And if it is impossible for nothing to give rise to something, then the existence of life should make no sense.

www.nairaland.com/attachments/5909250_img8162_jpega449fdec5674e7900a8abc4d01b71616

To me, life is even less complex than the universe. This truth (that nothing cannot produce something) is uncomfortable for those who propose that there is no Creator (of the universe).

This has led major scientists like Stephen hawkings, Lawrence krauss and others to theorize that something can come from nothing.

1. The M-Theory (which requires nothing something called gravity)
2. The multiverse theory (to which there exists no observable evidence)
3. Quantum vacuums (which infact has the properties of nothing something as Dr. Alexander Vilenkin points out
in this video.)


And maybe any other theory I don't know of. One thing is sure however, to validate any of the above theories, one must modify the definition of nothing.

Let's see the real definition of nothing.

www.nairaland.com/attachments/5909217_img8861_jpeg68ae4eccdc827e5cef36e4d5950fa853

Having said that. I'll go straight to my point.
Whatever was in existence prior to the universe, exists outside of time and space.

Whatever exists outside of time is timeless or eternal. The words "Timeless and eternal" seems to have a connection.

Lets see the definition of Timeless
www.nairaland.com/attachments/5909218_img8863_jpeg46c538e89180c8b5c8c7a3069cc08ddb


and eternal
www.nairaland.com/attachments/5909219_img8864_jpeg085949e1f8b8b358aefce3722518bc50

The major connection I see between these two words may be clear for everyone else to see.

"No beginning and no end".

This phenomenon is alien to humans. Majority of people can't seem to imagine an object with no beginning and no end (an object that was not created or an object that has been existing since forever).
It is natural though, afterall even our great planet will come to its end.
My point is, it is difficult for anyone to imagine something without a beginning or end.


The Bible describes God as:
1. ETERNAL in the following verses: Isaiah 40:28, Romans 16:26, 1 Timothy 1:17, Psalm 90:2
2. and SELF EXISTING: Exodus 3:14

The word YAHWEH itself is believed to be a form of the verb hayah, which signifies “to be,” ultimately meaning “the eternal One” or “self-existing One.”



So I have been able to make 2 points so far.
1. Timeless or eternal means no beginning and no end (UNCREATED OR SELF EXISTING)
2. The Bible describes God as timeless and eternal.



When atheists ask the question, "Who created God?". This question can be analyzed critically.

If something was created, it simply means it has a beginning. This negates the proposition of Christians as regards YAHWEH. Therefore such a question might either be born out of ignorance or dishonesty.
One can't ask who created something has no beginning and no end. Since the question itself proposes that this something has a beginning, It is an invalid question.


An eternal being or object has no beginning, no end. It is uncreated and timeless. It is self existent.
This is the what we mean when we say God is eternal.

I do not write to offend anyone's beliefs, but you can read this with an unbiased mind, I'm positive that you will come to an honest conclusion and admit that the question "Who created God" is an invalid question.


God bless you.

winner01:
We might not be able to say the same for the universe simply because of reasons I've put forth earlier.
1. The universe (something) began to exist
2. In our own capacity so far, we haven't been able to observe or demonstrate that nothing can bring forth something.
3. Something or Someone must have always existed that brought forth the universe that now exists
4. This Something or Someone is most likely independent of the features we have observed in the universe
5. Our thoughts (and opinions on time and space) no matter how wild exists within the confines of what we have observed in the universe
6. If our thoughts exists only within the confines of a created universe, then It might be safe to say that the idea of no time, no space is impossible for a human to entirely grasp since he is within the confines of time and space.
7. The Something or Someone who brought forth or created the universe exists independently of what we know or have ever seen. This Creator exists outside the logic of His creation.
8. Something exists and we know this for sure at least. Something can't come from nothing except we modify our idea of nothing. This is what we know. However you must admit that what we know is within the confines of this created universe.
9. If Something can't come from nothing then we must agree that Something or Someone powerful existed before this universe where we have found ourselves.
10. We can also agree that the origin and existence of this Powerful Something or Someone is beyond our knowledge, since our knowledge cannot run beyond the confines of creation
11. I propose however that this powerful Something or Someone did not leave this area open to us, the fact that we are debating this is enough proof. Hence the question on the origin of such Powerful Something or Someone is invalid.

topelenege:
Well I once asked my father this question.
Here was his his reply:

" If you bring out a Calculator and multiply 3 by 4
It give 12.

3000 by 4000
It give 12,000,000

Now multitply
30000000000000000 by 40000000000000000000000000000000000

What does the calculator say
- it showed 'E' meaning error.

So does it mean a good mathematician can't multiply

30000000000000000 by 40000000000000000000000000000000000 ?
Of course he can but for the calculator it has reached the limit the designer created it for.

Answer: Yes we were created in God's image but there is still a limited of what our brain can logically comprehend.



Exactly, and there ll always be a limit as far as the human mind can go. Science on its own has not been able to answer so many questions neither has it been able to explore the vastness of the universe. Even time is our greatest limitation which we can never overcome. There is a hypothesis that we utilize just 12% our mental capacity. Should we think this just happened by chance like the big bang theory? I don't think so. If more than 80% of the human race believes and as some have witnessed the existence of the metaphysical then why can't there exist a supreme being. We are mere minute beings and are only allowed to mysteries and knowledge of which our feeble minds can accommodate....

topelenege:
Well I once asked my father this question.
Here was his his reply:

" If you bring out a Calculator and multiply 3 by 4
It give 12.

3000 by 4000
It give 12,000,000

Now multitply
30000000000000000 by 40000000000000000000000000000000000

What does the calculator say
- it showed 'E' meaning error.

So does it mean a good mathematician can't multiply

30000000000000000 by 40000000000000000000000000000000000 ?
Of course he can but for the calculator it has reached the limit the designer created it for.

Answer: Yes we were created in God's image but there is still a limited of what our brain can logically comprehend.

walls01:
many things is impossible for us, but man know he was created. how come man ever had the idea of God in the first place? have you ever thought of that?

chemystery:
absence of science was what made god relevant. Before, humans needed god to cure malaria, but now science have the solution, hence no need for god. The concept of god is gradually diminishing, and with time, it will die out!

Who created God ? God cannot be created.What is God ? Indestructible Energy/ Power/ infinite possibilities/ the great illusionist/ creation itself is God, Creation and the creator are one and the sameThe OP is God, so are his words.His words are expressions and reflections of him. I am God, so are my words, they make or break me. Everything is God, God means "Power", we all have power.

NPComplete:
Primitive men did. And I assume it didn't start as gods. Probably as ancestors then some other thing

Anyway, I am a deist so I believe in the existence of God. But what is God? Is He a separate entity aside the universe or multi verse? Or is the universe itself God? Are we all a part of God? A way for God to express Himself.

bkool7:
If God has a creator ,then we would be stuck with thw annoying question of "who created first?" And it'll no end.

It is scientifically apparent that the universe is gradually gradually approaching its end .

https://www.infowars.com/the-universe-is-steadily-deteriorating-and-so-is-the-human-race-why-is-this-happening/

That shows it has a beginning, cos anything with an ending must have a beginning.


It is only a timeless and eternal being that can create something out of nothing because It has no beginning or ending


time.com/77676/why-science-does-not-disprove-god/

obinna58:
Everything that has beginning also has ending, Human created time as some kind of measurement, that kind of time you have in mind has no beginning or ending thereby REAL TIME does not exist

walls01:
good point still science has limit and people still talk about God even more.
science has limit and they don't acknowledge this about creation. that is why they hurriedly pass the evolution theory as law even though their is no truth about it. science only make sense when it comes to simple question but sound very foolish when it comes to deep questions. imaging saying animals mutate

walls01:
man only chooses to be ignorant when he likes. from the early men till know man always know he was created until science one sided way about creation. from our forefathers man always know about another beings the spirit beings which science have formed ignorant of because they cannot scientifically prove it really on the logical way of thinking even they know has great limit

walls01:
OK good. what is your definition of God according to your belief

lordm:
Not all questions are meant to be answered,

NPComplete:
It will have no end. So u want to assume without proof that God is eternal and endless and he didn't need creating. That is a lazy cop out.

So what if God needs to have been created? How does that disprove the fact that He created the world. I was created and I have created computer programs that work. Does my being created nullify the fact that I can create?

Yes the universe is approaching it's end based on what we can see. But our senses are limited. There's even a scientific theory that the universe may have had so many beginnings and end. So the universe may not be ending. The universe may just be resetting. The universe could be eternal. And the universe could be God.