₦airaland Forum

Kingluqman89:
No one created God
Below is a proof from the Gorious Quran Chapter 112:

1. Say: He is Allah (God), the One and Only
2. Allah, the Eternal, Absolute
3. He begetteth not, nor is He begotten
4. And there is none like unto Him.

Immorttal:
My question still is: if everything was created including varied life forms and the universe itself, and was supposedly created by God, then Who created God

obinna58:
Your explanation doesn't
1*.Man creating a mechanism for measuring time is the reason why time existed, time has beginning and undoubtedly going to have ending,
if you can reason beyond you will understand that everything has length of existence and it doesn't have anything to do with time, just temporal but continues

2*.you have about 100yrs lifespan, that's a lot of time to you but it can be equivalent to 10yrs to a particular animal, out of your 100yrs lifespan 24hours can also be seen as a lot of time and lifespan to a particular animal too, mayfly has a day as lifespan but it been existing for over 300million years, it's just a measurement, nothing differs but it continues, same applied to every other things (including earth)

3*.Time is not infinite cos there is nothing like real time, it does not exist

winner01:
If something comes into being, it must have been prompted by something else. A book has an author. Music has a music artist. A party has a party-thrower! All things that begin, that have a start, have a cause to their beginning.


"If a creator God needs to have been made by a creator, that creator would also need a creator who needs a creator … like an infinite chain of toppling dominos, which is an impossibility." - Bertrand Russel (1872-1970)


Today’s atheists repeat the objection, including Richard Dawkins (The God Delusion) and Philip Adams, who said,

“The great argument for God was that there had to be a Creation, a beginning. … But my objection was simple. If God was the beginning who began God?”



So who created God? Many religious people, especially Christians including myself consider this question the ultimate blasphemy. In times of inquisition, 800 years ago in Europe, this question alone could easily have gotten one killed or at least sent to the torture chambers by the powers that be of the time – the Catholic Church.

Yet today, it seems to be a legitimate and a profound question. This question must be best answered to help grow the faith of genuine enquirers and tick the conscience of honest unbelievers.
Even if one doesn't believe in God or any kind of divine being, the question remains: Why does anything exist? Why not just nothingness?

These are the ultimate existential questions and it may concern every human on earth.



Everything we observe in nature has a beginning. Theists, more specifically Christians however often object by making the claim below:

"God is in a different category, God is different from all nature and humanity and everything that exists, in that he has always existed, independent from anything he created. God is not a dependent being, but self-sufficient, self-existent.
Psalms 90:2, 1 chronicles 29:11-12, John 4:24.

Christians admit that everything has a cause with just one exception, GOD. Christians submit this because this is exactly how the Bible describes God, and how God has revealed himself to be.


While I will not be using scriptures to make my point.
It is important to note that the Bible says, “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth” (Genesis 1:1). Here God created time itself. Only One who is outside of time, that is, timeless, or eternal, could do this.

Let's leave this for a while. Almost everyone agrees that the world has a beginning. Science seems to have proven that time and space had a beginning. This fact amongst others have made some change their opinion on reality.
https://www.nairaland.com/3314364/christian-family-atheism-jesus-christ

Three scientific evidences seems to prove that the universe has a beginning. They are briefly explained in the thread above.

1. The second law of thermodynamics
2. An expanding universe
3. The cosmic background radiation

So basically.
- The universe has not always existed (the universe has a beginning)
- Time and space began with the universe (Time and space began when the universe began)


Prior to the universe, there was nothing, NO TIME, no space, nothing at all.
This implication of this is that whatever brought the universe into existence is independent of the universe, independent of time (timeless or eternal) and independent of space.


This is a serious implication. It means that :
1. Either the universe came from nothing
2. or the universe came from something
3. or we don't know what brought forth the universe.


In reality. It is impossible for nothing to produce something. At least majority of people agree with this. And if it is impossible for nothing to give rise to something, then the existence of life should make no sense.

www.nairaland.com/attachments/5909250_img8162_jpega449fdec5674e7900a8abc4d01b71616

To me, life is even less complex than the universe. This truth (that nothing cannot produce something) is uncomfortable for those who propose that there is no Creator (of the universe).

This has led major scientists like Stephen hawkings, Lawrence krauss and others to theorize that something can come from nothing.

1. The M-Theory (which requires nothing something called gravity)
2. The multiverse theory (to which there exists no observable evidence)
3. Quantum vacuums (which infact has the properties of nothing something as Dr. Alexander Vilenkin points out
in this video.)


And maybe any other theory I don't know of. One thing is sure however, to validate any of the above theories, one must modify the definition of nothing.

Let's see the real definition of nothing.

www.nairaland.com/attachments/5909217_img8861_jpeg68ae4eccdc827e5cef36e4d5950fa853

Having said that. I'll go straight to my point.
Whatever was in existence prior to the universe, exists outside of time and space.

Whatever exists outside of time is timeless or eternal. The words "Timeless and eternal" seems to have a connection.

Lets see the definition of Timeless
www.nairaland.com/attachments/5909218_img8863_jpeg46c538e89180c8b5c8c7a3069cc08ddb


and eternal
www.nairaland.com/attachments/5909219_img8864_jpeg085949e1f8b8b358aefce3722518bc50

The major connection I see between these two words may be clear for everyone else to see.

"No beginning and no end".

This phenomenon is alien to humans. Majority of people can't seem to imagine an object with no beginning and no end (an object that was not created or an object that has been existing since forever).
It is natural though, afterall even our great planet will come to its end.
My point is, it is difficult for anyone to imagine something without a beginning or end.


The Bible describes God as:
1. ETERNAL in the following verses: Isaiah 40:28, Romans 16:26, 1 Timothy 1:17, Psalm 90:2
2. and SELF EXISTING: Exodus 3:14

The word YAHWEH itself is believed to be a form of the verb hayah, which signifies “to be,” ultimately meaning “the eternal One” or “self-existing One.”



So I have been able to make 2 points so far.
1. Timeless or eternal means no beginning and no end (UNCREATED OR SELF EXISTING)
2. The Bible describes God as timeless and eternal.



When atheists ask the question, "Who created God?". This question can be analyzed critically.

If something was created, it simply means it has a beginning. This negates the proposition of Christians as regards YAHWEH. Therefore such a question might either be born out of ignorance or dishonesty.
One can't ask who created something has no beginning and no end. Since the question itself proposes that this something has a beginning, It is an invalid question.


An eternal being or object has no beginning, no end. It is uncreated and timeless. It is self existent.
This is the what we mean when we say God is eternal.

I do not write to offend anyone's beliefs, but you can read this with an unbiased mind, I'm positive that you will come to an honest conclusion and admit that the question "Who created God" is an invalid question.


God bless you.

Immorttal:
My question still is: if everything was created including varied life forms and the universe itself, and was supposedly created by God, then Who created God

winner01:
If something comes into being, it must have been prompted by something else. A book has an author. Music has a music artist. A party has a party-thrower! All things that begin, that have a start, have a cause to their beginning.


"If a creator God needs to have been made by a creator, that creator would also need a creator who needs a creator … like an infinite chain of toppling dominos, which is an impossibility." - Bertrand Russel (1872-1970)


Today’s atheists repeat the objection, including Richard Dawkins (The God Delusion) and Philip Adams, who said,

“The great argument for God was that there had to be a Creation, a beginning. … But my objection was simple. If God was the beginning who began God?”



So who created God? Many religious people, especially Christians including myself consider this question the ultimate blasphemy. In times of inquisition, 800 years ago in Europe, this question alone could easily have gotten one killed or at least sent to the torture chambers by the powers that be of the time – the Catholic Church.

Yet today, it seems to be a legitimate and a profound question. This question must be best answered to help grow the faith of genuine enquirers and tick the conscience of honest unbelievers.
Even if one doesn't believe in God or any kind of divine being, the question remains: Why does anything exist? Why not just nothingness?

These are the ultimate existential questions and it may concern every human on earth.



Everything we observe in nature has a beginning. Theists, more specifically Christians however often object by making the claim below:

"God is in a different category, God is different from all nature and humanity and everything that exists, in that he has always existed, independent from anything he created. God is not a dependent being, but self-sufficient, self-existent.
Psalms 90:2, 1 chronicles 29:11-12, John 4:24.

Christians admit that everything has a cause with just one exception, GOD. Christians submit this because this is exactly how the Bible describes God, and how God has revealed himself to be.


While I will not be using scriptures to make my point.
It is important to note that the Bible says, “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth” (Genesis 1:1). Here God created time itself. Only One who is outside of time, that is, timeless, or eternal, could do this.

Let's leave this for a while. Almost everyone agrees that the world has a beginning. Science seems to have proven that time and space had a beginning. This fact amongst others have made some change their opinion on reality.
https://www.nairaland.com/3314364/christian-family-atheism-jesus-christ

Three scientific evidences seems to prove that the universe has a beginning. They are briefly explained in the thread above.

1. The second law of thermodynamics
2. An expanding universe
3. The cosmic background radiation

So basically.
- The universe has not always existed (the universe has a beginning)
- Time and space began with the universe (Time and space began when the universe began)


Prior to the universe, there was nothing, NO TIME, no space, nothing at all.
This implication of this is that whatever brought the universe into existence is independent of the universe, independent of time (timeless or eternal) and independent of space.


This is a serious implication. It means that :
1. Either the universe came from nothing
2. or the universe came from something
3. or we don't know what brought forth the universe.


In reality. It is impossible for nothing to produce something. At least majority of people agree with this. And if it is impossible for nothing to give rise to something, then the existence of life should make no sense.

www.nairaland.com/attachments/5909250_img8162_jpega449fdec5674e7900a8abc4d01b71616

To me, life is even less complex than the universe. This truth (that nothing cannot produce something) is uncomfortable for those who propose that there is no Creator (of the universe).

This has led major scientists like Stephen hawkings, Lawrence krauss and others to theorize that something can come from nothing.

1. The M-Theory (which requires nothing something called gravity)
2. The multiverse theory (to which there exists no observable evidence)
3. Quantum vacuums (which infact has the properties of nothing something as Dr. Alexander Vilenkin points out
in this video.)


And maybe any other theory I don't know of. One thing is sure however, to validate any of the above theories, one must modify the definition of nothing.

Let's see the real definition of nothing.

www.nairaland.com/attachments/5909217_img8861_jpeg68ae4eccdc827e5cef36e4d5950fa853

Having said that. I'll go straight to my point.
Whatever was in existence prior to the universe, exists outside of time and space.

Whatever exists outside of time is timeless or eternal. The words "Timeless and eternal" seems to have a connection.

Lets see the definition of Timeless
www.nairaland.com/attachments/5909218_img8863_jpeg46c538e89180c8b5c8c7a3069cc08ddb


and eternal
www.nairaland.com/attachments/5909219_img8864_jpeg085949e1f8b8b358aefce3722518bc50

The major connection I see between these two words may be clear for everyone else to see.

"No beginning and no end".

This phenomenon is alien to humans. Majority of people can't seem to imagine an object with no beginning and no end (an object that was not created or an object that has been existing since forever).
It is natural though, afterall even our great planet will come to its end.
My point is, it is difficult for anyone to imagine something without a beginning or end.


The Bible describes God as:
1. ETERNAL in the following verses: Isaiah 40:28, Romans 16:26, 1 Timothy 1:17, Psalm 90:2
2. and SELF EXISTING: Exodus 3:14

The word YAHWEH itself is believed to be a form of the verb hayah, which signifies “to be,” ultimately meaning “the eternal One” or “self-existing One.”



So I have been able to make 2 points so far.
1. Timeless or eternal means no beginning and no end (UNCREATED OR SELF EXISTING)
2. The Bible describes God as timeless and eternal.



When atheists ask the question, "Who created God?". This question can be analyzed critically.

If something was created, it simply means it has a beginning. This negates the proposition of Christians as regards YAHWEH. Therefore such a question might either be born out of ignorance or dishonesty.
One can't ask who created something has no beginning and no end. Since the question itself proposes that this something has a beginning, It is an invalid question.


An eternal being or object has no beginning, no end. It is uncreated and timeless. It is self existent.
This is the what we mean when we say God is eternal.

I do not write to offend anyone's beliefs, but you can read this with an unbiased mind, I'm positive that you will come to an honest conclusion and admit that the question "Who created God" is an invalid question.


God bless you.

NPComplete:
The first problem is assuming God has always existed. There's no proof for God always existing other than some verses in the bible. And we all know the bible has never been an impeccable source of information.
So that assumption is an argument from dogma.

Secondly if we are to believe that God has always existed, why is it hard to believe the universe has always existed in whatever form before it became the form we know of it now. Maybe this form we know of it is just our mental projection. And since our brains can't see beyond 3 spatial dimensions, it is plausible that our understanding of space time is skewed and limited. The universe may also be eternal for all we know. Perhaps the universe is God.

Personally, I don't see anything wrong with God Himself having a creator. I can live with it. And I imagine it is possible we also become creators ourselves after we leave this life. It might just be that that's the essence of life. Life birthing more life. Creators creating and getting created. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that.

winner01:
Something exists, our universe. We do not know how it has come to exist. Something seems sure though, that nothing does not produce something. I'm not being absolute on this but I'm just writing based on what we have seen and observed in real life. If there is a theory worth looking at, which proves that something can come from nothing, please submit it here.

You sound so absolute on the issue of time and space. It's the same thing you accuse religious people of. Absolutism.

Now you have also brought space into the picture. Are you saying there must have been a space within which the universe was not created? Space is something you know, not nothing. What makes you so sure that space is also a human construct. You sound so sure too, I'm willing to learn.
And I'm not concluding anything, I'm simply sharing my views on why I think a question is invalid.

You're correct, and it's because I'm human. I've pointed that out earlier. I, like many other people cannot seem to come to terms with the fact that "there was a time in which time never existed". Hell I don't even know the correct grammatical expression to explain a "time in which time never existed".
Just like you my thoughts are within the confines of time and space no matter how wild.
Timelessness is something we've never experienced. It's okay if it makes no sense to us. The Creator did not seem to leave us the ability of grasping the idea of timelessness or even nothing. The human idea of nothing is still something.



We might not be able to say the same for the universe simply because of reasons I've put forth earlier.
1. The universe (something) began to exist
2. In our own capacity so far, we haven't been able to observe or demonstrate that nothing can bring forth something.
3. Something or Someone must have always existed that brought forth the universe that now exists
4. This Something or Someone is most likely independent of the features we have observed in the universe
5. Our thoughts (and opinions on time and space) no matter how wild exists within the confines of what we have observed in the universe
6. If our thoughts exists only within the confines of a created universe, then It might be safe to say that the idea of no time, no space is impossible for a human to entirely grasp since he is within the confines of time and space.
7. The Something or Someone who brought forth or created the universe exists independently of what we know or have ever seen. This Creator exists outside the logic of His creation.
8. Something exists and we know this for sure at least. Something can't come from nothing except we modify our idea of nothing. This is what we know. However you must admit that what we know is within the confines of this created universe.
9. If Something can't come from nothing then we must agree that Something or Someone powerful existed before this universe where we have found ourselves.
10. We can also agree that the origin and existence of this Powerful Something or Someone is beyond our knowledge, since our knowledge cannot run beyond the confines of creation
11. I propose however that this powerful Something or Someone did not leave this area open to us, the fact that we are debating this is enough proof. Hence the question on the origin of such Powerful Something or Someone is invalid.

Immorttal:
My question still is: if everything was created including varied life forms and the universe itself, and was supposedly created by God, then Who created God

EBLABOR:
Then they most be an initial creator, if you continue to trace through the supposed line of creators. That is who is called God. We ourselves as creators of what we see around us, understand that life's design is too intelligent to be created by an explosion. Intelligent designs requires an intelligent designer. One who we believe and have come to see man is made in his likeness. I really have seen God's undisputed prove am completely satisfied.

walls01:
first evolution says over time animals evolve to a higher organism. that apes evolve to human is this not foolishness. four corners of the earth do not mean the earth is flat. scientists divide the earth into four north South east and west do they mean also the earth is flat? Satan example you misunderstood. they are in the spirit realm when you are taking up in the spirit realm you actually see the whole universe

oluamid:
And you reached this conclusion how? From your most probably non scientific survey and small sample of Nigerian atheists?

Look for these two names on Facebook.

Tavian Oladapo

Has it ees


They are Nigerian and atheists. Having "thorough understanding" is a subjective phrase so I'll let you decide for yourself.

By the way, could you point me towards these "incredible scientific phenomena" that point towards the supernatural as you mentioned above? Thank you.

winner01:
If something comes into being, it must have been prompted by something else. A book has an author. Music has a music artist. A party has a party-thrower! All things that begin, that have a start, have a cause to their beginning.


"If a creator God needs to have been made by a creator, that creator would also need a creator who needs a creator … like an infinite chain of toppling dominos, which is an impossibility." - Bertrand Russel (1872-1970)


Today’s atheists repeat the objection, including Richard Dawkins (The God Delusion) and Philip Adams, who said,

“The great argument for God was that there had to be a Creation, a beginning. … But my objection was simple. If God was the beginning who began God?”



So who created God? Many religious people, especially Christians including myself consider this question the ultimate blasphemy. In times of inquisition, 800 years ago in Europe, this question alone could easily have gotten one killed or at least sent to the torture chambers by the powers that be of the time – the Catholic Church.

Yet today, it seems to be a legitimate and a profound question. This question must be best answered to help grow the faith of genuine enquirers and tick the conscience of honest unbelievers.
Even if one doesn't believe in God or any kind of divine being, the question remains: Why does anything exist? Why not just nothingness?

These are the ultimate existential questions and it may concern every human on earth.



Everything we observe in nature has a beginning. Theists, more specifically Christians however often object by making the claim below:

"God is in a different category, God is different from all nature and humanity and everything that exists, in that he has always existed, independent from anything he created. God is not a dependent being, but self-sufficient, self-existent.
Psalms 90:2, 1 chronicles 29:11-12, John 4:24.

Christians admit that everything has a cause with just one exception, GOD. Christians submit this because this is exactly how the Bible describes God, and how God has revealed himself to be.


While I will not be using scriptures to make my point.
It is important to note that the Bible says, “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth” (Genesis 1:1). Here God created time itself. Only One who is outside of time, that is, timeless, or eternal, could do this.

Let's leave this for a while. Almost everyone agrees that the world has a beginning. Science seems to have proven that time and space had a beginning. This fact amongst others have made some change their opinion on reality.
https://www.nairaland.com/3314364/christian-family-atheism-jesus-christ

Three scientific evidences seems to prove that the universe has a beginning. They are briefly explained in the thread above.

1. The second law of thermodynamics
2. An expanding universe
3. The cosmic background radiation

So basically.
- The universe has not always existed (the universe has a beginning)
- Time and space began with the universe (Time and space began when the universe began)


Prior to the universe, there was nothing, NO TIME, no space, nothing at all.
This implication of this is that whatever brought the universe into existence is independent of the universe, independent of time (timeless or eternal) and independent of space.


This is a serious implication. It means that :
1. Either the universe came from nothing
2. or the universe came from something
3. or we don't know what brought forth the universe.


In reality. It is impossible for nothing to produce something. At least majority of people agree with this. And if it is impossible for nothing to give rise to something, then the existence of life should make no sense.

www.nairaland.com/attachments/5909250_img8162_jpega449fdec5674e7900a8abc4d01b71616

To me, life is even less complex than the universe. This truth (that nothing cannot produce something) is uncomfortable for those who propose that there is no Creator (of the universe).

This has led major scientists like Stephen hawkings, Lawrence krauss and others to theorize that something can come from nothing.

1. The M-Theory (which requires nothing something called gravity)
2. The multiverse theory (to which there exists no observable evidence)
3. Quantum vacuums (which infact has the properties of nothing something as Dr. Alexander Vilenkin points out
in this video.)


And maybe any other theory I don't know of. One thing is sure however, to validate any of the above theories, one must modify the definition of nothing.

Let's see the real definition of nothing.

www.nairaland.com/attachments/5909217_img8861_jpeg68ae4eccdc827e5cef36e4d5950fa853

Having said that. I'll go straight to my point.
Whatever was in existence prior to the universe, exists outside of time and space.

Whatever exists outside of time is timeless or eternal. The words "Timeless and eternal" seems to have a connection.

Lets see the definition of Timeless
www.nairaland.com/attachments/5909218_img8863_jpeg46c538e89180c8b5c8c7a3069cc08ddb


and eternal
www.nairaland.com/attachments/5909219_img8864_jpeg085949e1f8b8b358aefce3722518bc50

The major connection I see between these two words may be clear for everyone else to see.

"No beginning and no end".

This phenomenon is alien to humans. Majority of people can't seem to imagine an object with no beginning and no end (an object that was not created or an object that has been existing since forever).
It is natural though, afterall even our great planet will come to its end.
My point is, it is difficult for anyone to imagine something without a beginning or end.


The Bible describes God as:
1. ETERNAL in the following verses: Isaiah 40:28, Romans 16:26, 1 Timothy 1:17, Psalm 90:2
2. and SELF EXISTING: Exodus 3:14

The word YAHWEH itself is believed to be a form of the verb hayah, which signifies “to be,” ultimately meaning “the eternal One” or “self-existing One.”



So I have been able to make 2 points so far.
1. Timeless or eternal means no beginning and no end (UNCREATED OR SELF EXISTING)
2. The Bible describes God as timeless and eternal.



When atheists ask the question, "Who created God?". This question can be analyzed critically.

If something was created, it simply means it has a beginning. This negates the proposition of Christians as regards YAHWEH. Therefore such a question might either be born out of ignorance or dishonesty.
One can't ask who created something has no beginning and no end. Since the question itself proposes that this something has a beginning, It is an invalid question.


An eternal being or object has no beginning, no end. It is uncreated and timeless. It is self existent.
This is the what we mean when we say God is eternal.

I do not write to offend anyone's beliefs, but you can read this with an unbiased mind, I'm positive that you will come to an honest conclusion and admit that the question "Who created God" is an invalid question.


God bless you.

winner01:
How about those things that have no beginning for instance, nothing we have ever seen

Well, nice theory. We should still agree that there was a time point when all these began and there was something already in existence independent of creation or points of existence.

I think real time does exist, I disagree with those who say it doesn't.

obinna58:
What else can be the importance of time if not for measurement only, I think you are going all round to backup your claims

chemystery:
You cannot assert that it is impossible for nothing to result to something yet concluded something called god came out from nothing. That is a sincere insincerity in argument.

Time and space are human constructs. Since we can't determine when the universe was created, which must have been possibly created before the time construct was created, we can therefore conclude the universe existed independent of time and space!

You mentioned that "Prior to the universe, there was nothing, NO TIME, no space, nothing at all". But you have use the word prior to distinguish between a TIME the universe existed, and a TIME it never existed, thereby defeating that argument.

Lastly, looking at all these things you have said about god, tell me, why can't we say same of the universe? What made it invalid for the latter and not so to the former?

NPComplete:
The first problem is assuming God has always existed. There's no proof for God always existing other than some verses in the bible. And we all know the bible has never been an impeccable source of information.
So that assumption is an argument from dogma.

Secondly if we are to believe that God has always existed, why is it hard to believe the universe has always existed in whatever form before it became the form we know of it now. Maybe this form we know of it is just our mental projection. And since our brains can't see beyond 3 spatial dimensions, it is plausible that our understanding of space time is skewed and limited. The universe may also be eternal for all we know. Perhaps the universe is God.

Personally, I don't see anything wrong with God Himself having a creator. I can live with it. And I imagine it is possible we also become creators ourselves after we leave this life. It might just be that that's the essence of life. Life birthing more life. Creators creating and getting created. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that.

gabe:
Creationists make up a law they cannot prove like 'all things were created' then convieniently sidestep it, again without proof, when they say god was not created. To make it plausible, they say,again without proof, that god had no beginning or an end and is outside the bounds of time and space. You can't eat your cake and have it. You don't make convienent excuses when there is a deviation from whatever postulate you are touting. Either everything was created, or some things are not created. That something had a beginning does not connote creation. It has yet to be proved and stays that way until you can provide proof, not concocted deducible statements.

DMerciful:
Time and space are not human construct. The way to calculate or measure these quantities are human construct however the quantitiesnthemselves are not human construct. Just as electricity can be converted to magnetism so also space can be converted to time n vice versa. Whatever was in the Beginning, we reffered to as God!

chemystery:
evolutionists strongly deny the idea that men came from the apes. They insist that both man and the apes came from a hypothetical ape-like ancestor. This has been evident from >90% DNA we share with apes. You don't even know the evolution theory yet you called it foolishness. Go dig up more facts about evolution before you conclude.

What are the four corners of the earth? If I give you a ball, can you show me it's four corners?
When does corner translate to four cardinal points. North, South, East and West are used to define direction and not location. Corners of earth is not specifying directions but fixed locations. In essence, for the second time, you are saying the bible does mean what it says rather it says what you mean

chemystery:
You are confusing yourself. I guess time and space and supernatural construct

walls01:
is it because you do not believe in God that make you believe rubbish. ape like animal my foot where is this ape like animal and where are the intermediate changes since they claim is gradual. why have we not notice this changes again.
what are cardinal point and why such reference?

DMerciful:
Time is defined as the progress of existence! Is existence human construct? Space is the emptiness btw matter. Is this emptiness human construct? We are not talking about seconds and minutes here! We are talking about the unlimited progress of existence

walls01:
is it because you do not believe in God that make you believe rubbish. ape like animal my foot where is this ape like animal and where are the intermediate changes since they claim is gradual. why have we not notice this changes again.
what are cardinal point and why such reference?