davidylan:

you've struck a particular point i've been trying to make for so long - the fact that atheism today seems much less about "God" really than it is about simply attacking christianity. For all the noise about them being more familiar with christianity i think the truth is that they see christianity as a threat to their own lifestyle.

Only a heart that is unconsciously aware that the God of the bible is real will spend so much time basing his opinions on God's existence solely on the bible.

dalaman:

This is very false I have atheist friends here who were ex moslems and they base their atheism trying to show or believing that allah is non existent. They base their opinion of God's existence solely on the koran and allah. All the atheist on nairaland were former Christians so you wouldn't expect them to start proving that allah does not exist because Jehovah is the only God they were brought up to believe in. Ex muslims never spend time attacking the bible or the God of the bible they spend all their time attacking the koran and allah.

Ex Christians attack christianity while ex muslims attack Islam. Most of the vocal western were atheist were ex Christians and that is the only religion they know or were raised to believe in. The Christian God is the only God they were raised to believe in.

justcool:

From my encounters with the so called atheists, I have noticed that their disbelief is always of a particular god or belief system.

I will give an example: An atheist may spend hours disproving the validity of the bible. At the end of the day he may succeed in proving that some of the stories in the bible are questionable and he will base his atheism on this, But what he forgets is that the fact that some of the stories in the bible are questionable does not mean that God does not exist.

A better conclusion for such a person would be this: "If God does exist, He is definitely not exactly what the bible says He is."
In this conclusion he acknowledges two things; (1) God and bible are not exactly the same. (2) The fact that certain things in the bible fails to live up to the test of reality does not mean that the existence of God is false too.

davidylan:

to start with, claiming that ALL atheists on nairaland were former christians is itself FALSE for someone who has constituted himself to be a "fraud police". You dont know each of them personally . . . you never lived their lives, how did you come to that conclusion?

However your point buttresses justcool's point - the atheist cannot claim there is no god simply because he claims to have proven that the "god" of one religion could not have written its spiritual book. What about other gods he hasnt looked at? Does he believe (based on attacking the bible) that the hindu god isnt real?

justcool:

From my encounters with the so called atheists, I have noticed that their disbelief is always of a particular god or belief system.

I will give an example: An atheist may spend hours disproving the validity of the bible. At the end of the day he may succeed in proving that some of the stories in the bible are questionable and he will base his atheism on this, But what he forgets is that the fact that some of the stories in the bible are questionable does not mean that God does not exist.

A better conclusion for such a person would be this: "If God does exist, He is definitely not exactly what the bible says He is."
In this conclusion he acknowledges two things; (1) God and bible are not exactly the same. (2) The fact that certain things in the bible fails to live up to the test of reality does not mean that the existence of God is false too.

I will give another example: An atheist may spend hours disproving the validity of the Koran. At the end he may succeed in proving that some of the stories in the Koran are questionable.  From this he will then conclude that since the Koran is questionable, then the existence of God is questionable too thus a fallacy.

But the fact remains that all religions and all sacred books are peoples perception of God, not God Himself!
Thus if one does not agree with the biblical perception or the Koranic perception, the individual is left to seek to have his own perception of God. Out of intellectual and spiritual laziness the individual gives up the belief in God without putting it through a thorough and unbiased scrutiny. He takes the easy way out and call himself an atheist. However, he is not really an atheist! He is just opposed to certain perceptions of God.

Thus anybody that arrives at this conclusion should not call himself an atheist. He acknowledges that God exist, whether he calls God a power or whether he call Him God or Allah. What difference does it make? But one thing is certain, he[b] has seen the evidence of the existence of God.[/b]

rich_john:

@justcool
very stupid analogy you didnt make sense, mind you am not an athiest

Nezan:

I came across an atheist who said 'thank GOD, am an atheist', so funny

davidylan:

Only a heart that is unconsciously aware that the God of the bible is real will spend so much time basing his opinions on God's existence solely on the bible.

huxley:

You can dismiss the claims of religions without referring to their holy books. To refer to the holy books is to dismiss them thoroughly.

Tudór:

@justcool.
Are you now admitting that the bible is false?

The entirety of what you and I know about God or Gods comes from the so called Holy Books. Hence any flaw or contraditions in the books cast aspersions on the idea "god" revealed by the books in itself.

Tasma:

Sorry but this argument seems flawed to me. First off i do agree that no atheist can actually argue that a "God" or power does not exist. That is simply outside the powers of perception of any human being. The problem though is that most definitions of "God" only exist within the context of some established religion or the other. There is little of a universal God definition that can satisfy all/most religions across board. Also few Muslims or Christians will agree with the same God concept. So yes until that time the "atheist" can insist that he does not believe in any of the prevailing concepts of "God".

m_nwankwo:

I think that the OP by Justcool is brilliant. However, I am convinced that logical or intellectual reasoning will not convince even one atheist to believe in God. Belief or rather an irrevocable conviction in God requires something which logic and reason cannot provide. It requires a conscious experience of the power of God. Until a person consciously encounters this power of God, he or she will remain an atheist, an agnostic or be a believer in several of the many conceptions of God that are prevalent in different world religions or movements. Personally, I do not see any problem with whatever view point an atheist holds so long as that is what he or she is convinced about. That is, as long as one is honest with his beliefs and do not perharps hold views that contradict his outward and inward experiences. Thus there is nothing wrong in my view in holding a belief or views that are in synch with your outward and inward experiences. My view is that the power of God is to be experienced. It is not reasoned or thought out. The path to recognising God lies in consciously experiencing the power of God and if need be, one can articulate this experience of Gods power into philosophical, logical or scientific platform. Blind faith in God may be acquired by philosophical, logical or scientific reasoning. Such a faith is blind in its fundamentalsim as well as unreliable when temptation knocks. It is actually better in my view to be an honest athesit than to have a blind faith in God. An irrevocable conviction in God comes from consciosusly experiencing the power of God. Such a genuine conviction brings love instead of hate, wisdom instead of ignorance, sympathetic understanding instead of fundamentalism, serenity instead of anger, truthfullness instead of falsehood, honesty instead of hypocrisy, peace instead of war, etc.

justcool:

@davidylan
I personally have sensed something close to the above here in Nairaland. Nobody will waste so much energy or write a book trying to prove that the toot fairy or Santa clause doesn't exist. One who truly believes that God does not exist will only smile at believers and will not waste energy trying to persuade them to give up their belief, after all experience will soon come to their aid.
One who wastes so much time trying to convince others is actually trying to convince himself. He is actually trying to silence something within himself.

dalaman:

Their post says that they were all former Christians, Huxley, Tudor,Kag,Mazaje,Bindex,Toneyb,Duduspace,Chrisbengor,Mamustwac,Okia Juju,Wirinet, All these people were former christians who were taught to believe that Jehovah is the only true God. You don't expect them to start going around disproving allah do you?

justcool:

But if one looks around, one will find the world, plants, man, mountains, stars etc. Then one would ask oneself: "what is the origin of all these things around me? From whence did all these things proceed?" Many answers would come to mind--evolution, the big bang. Then another question: [b]What caused evolution? From whence did evolution drive its power? What caused the big bag? [/b]From whence did the power that caused the big bang came? This power that still sustains everything. This power in every plant, every mountain, everything.

Perharps one may not be able to answere this question, but he definitely acknowledges that their is a power that animates all. But what is this power? Tell me has this seeker not found God?

Thus anybody that arrives at this conclusion should not call himself an atheist. He acknowledges that God exist, wheather he calls God a power or wheather he call Him God or Allah. What difference does it make? But one thing is certain, he[b] has seen the evidence of the existence of God.[/b]

Thus the only true atheist is one who believes that the universe, plants, trees, man(including himself), and etc does not exist.

To acknowledge that life (including yourself and everything in the universe) exists, and to see the power that sustains it, and yet still say that God does not exist; It's like seeing a painting hanging on the wall, and yet say that the painting has no painter.

The existence of the universe is enough evidence that the universe has beginning, an external force that keeps it in motion, that keeps it animated, that fuels it -- its creator! This is not just a conclusion, this is also scientific.

However one chooses to imagine this force, power, power of the creator or the creator is his/her personal business.

davidylan:

We all know this for a fact . . . but an atheist would rather delude himself.

toneyb:

So true indeed just like the way you are actually trying to convince yourself that allah is not the one true god by always engaging the moslems and trying to show that that he is a demon. I also believe that you are also trying to silence that truth by always attacking the moslems. If islam is truly the wrong religion and all moslems are deluded and wasting their time worshiping the false god I bet you will never visit the Islam for moslem section, in fact why do you quote from the koran? Its only a person that is worried about the truth that is in the book that will try to read it. If the koran is false you will never read it talkless of trying to show that it is false. The moslems know it is true but the christians will rather keep deluding themselves.

davidylan:

as usual he resorts to the same irrelevant and discredited moral equivalence. Wake me up when these trolls have something else to say.

toneyb:

As usual when the Hypocrisy of the fool has been exposed he begins to call people names what a deluded fool. Wake me up when the deluded hypocrite has something relevant to say.

davidylan:

i cant say i expected any better.

davidylan: you've struck a particular point i've been trying to make for so long - the fact that atheism today seems much less about "God" really than it is about simply attacking christianity. For all the noise about them being more familiar with christianity i think the truth is that they see christianity as a threat to their own lifestyle.

Only a heart that is unconsciously aware that the God of the bible is real will spend so much time basing his opinions on God's existence solely on the bible.

justcool:

A better conclusion for such a person would be this: "If God does exist, He is definitely not exactly what the bible says He is."

But the fact remains that all religions and all secred books are peoples perception of God, not God Himself!
Thus if one does not agree with the biblical perception or the Koranic perception, the individual is left to seek to have his own perception of God. Out of intellectual and spiritual laziness the individual gives up the belief in God without putting it through a thorough and unbiased scrutiny. He takes the easy way out and call himself an atheist. However, he is not really an atheist! He is just opposed to certain perceptions of God.

I will give another example: After putting the theory of evolution through scrutiny, an individual gets convinced of it validity. He will not just call himself an evolutionist, rather he will go too far and declare himself an atheist. He will reason that since man evolved, the idea of creationism is wrong, and if creationism is fallacy then God's existence is fallacy too. Here he makes a terrible error in his judgement. A better judgement would be: "If God does exist then He did not create the world in six days."

I will give an analogy: If I read a book about ZIk, and the book says that ZIK could turn into an fly. As a child I might believe this story. But as an adult I will put the story into scrutiny. From my experiences as an Adult I know that it is impossible for a man to turn into a fly. This will lead me to conclude that, (1) maybe Zik does not exist, and never existed; and the whole thing is fallacy, or (2) Zik does exist or did exist, but the story that I read in the book is fallacy.

Of course the second conclusion is a more intelligent conclusion, especially when I have other evidences that zik existed, IE works that Zik produced when he was alive. The fact that a description of a thing does not accord to reality does not mean that that thing never existed or does not exist.

Thus one should not stop the investigation and just call himself an atheist, just because the stories he read about God are myths. The right thing would be to seek a personal experience with this God. To look around and see if there is any evidence that God does exist. If one looks around and finds none, then such a person is a true atheist.

But if one looks around, one will find the world, plants, man, mountains, stars etc. Then one would ask oneself: "what is the origin of all these things around me? From whence did all these things proceed?" Many answers would come to mind--evolution, the big bang. Then another question: What caused evolution? From whence did evolution drive its power? What caused the big bag? From whence did the power that caused the big bang came? This power that still sustains everything. This power in every plant, every mountain, everything.

Perharps one may not be able to answere this question, but he definitely acknowledges that their is a power that animates all. But what is this power? Tell me has this seeker not found God?

Thus anybody that arrives at this conclusion should not call himself an atheist. He acknowledges that God exist, wheather he calls God a power or wheather he call Him God or Allah. What difference does it make? But one thing is certain, he[b] has seen the evidence of the existence of God.[/b]

Thus the only true atheist is one who believes that the universe, plants, trees, man(including himself), and etc does not exist.

To acknowledge that life (including yourself and everything in the universe) exists, and to see the power that sustains it, and yet still say that God does not exist; It's like seeing a painting hanging on the wall, and yet say that the painting has no painter.

The existence of the universe is enough evidence that the universe has beginning, an external force that keeps it in motion, that keeps it animated, that fuels it -- its creator! This is not just a conclusion, this is also scientific.

However one chooses to imagine this force, power, power of the creator or the creator is his/her personal business.

toba: Gone were the days. 2009

toba: Gone were the days. 2009