₦airaland Forum

Davidylan:  

I appreciate your response as it is less ranting than usual and more thought out but here is the problem U have as well as the problem I have.  First, I am not one of those that is inclined to use the Bible as sole proof of anything, only as supporting proof.  I don't believe the Bible can stand by itslef as proof (U do not have to accept that, that's o.k.).  Many of your responses suggest, or think, that I believe the Bible is true.  Likewise, many of my responses sometimes forget that you do not accept the Quran.  With that said, this is why at times I suggest we take an objective look at what the Prophets came with as we see from a comparative look at the Quran and Torah and Bible.  With that said, let me proceed:

As for God sending Jesus to the Jews, it is obvious that there was something the Jews were doing for God to send Jesus to them.  They were not innocent, proven by the fact that they rejected Jesus despite all the miracles he performed in front of them.  So, it is very plausibel that, and consistent with the Quran and what should logically follow, that God was upset with the Jews and angry with them, yet sent them a final messenger for deliverance - and they rejected him.

As for the salvation?  The most critical thread between the Prophets, I would argue, is their preaching of one God and not committing shirk or polytheism.  As for the act to be performed for salvation is ancillary.  What good is being free from sin if you don't know worship a God besides God.  For example, what if someone performs all the actions necessary to gain salvation, such as the old sacrifice of the goat, but also worship a cow.  He will not be saved.  Since Christians believe u need t accept Jesus to be saved, as that belief is the heart of Christian theology, what difference does it make or what good is it if you do everything else good but reject Jesus.  

I submit that since all the Prophets came with the message of monotheism, this is the most important and everything else is ancillary.  Jesus is the only one with a different definition of monotheism, which includes the trinity.  

"Nope, the biblical prophets did not need to split the moon to prove they were sent by God."   --- fine.  But that says nothing.  The point is wther its splitting the moon, feeding an entire load of people with little food, raising the dead, killing Goliath, splitting the Red Sea, they all needed something to give the people as a stamp of approval that they are a Prophet.  Otherwise, any Tom dick or Harry can say, "hey I am a Prophet" with out prsenting any authenticating papers we call miracles.


"Here is the problem . . . how does the bush man know that "god"? What is his name and how does the bushman reach him? will he have to learn arabic?"

Like I said before , God belief itself if quite simple.  His essence is a greater mystery.   But things like the fact that he is all powerful and the creator of everything, etc is intuitive and a natural inferrence from the fact that we live.  Muslims believe everyone is a Muslim because Islam simply means one that submits to God.  Whether it be a Bushman or an educated Harvard boy, we all ask the question "who am I and where did I come from"  Why?  Because I submit that we arre hardwired to believe in God.  So the Bshman does not have to be told about God belief, its natural.  he knows the simple things such as the fact that God created him and knows that since God created him, God is the only one deserving of worship.  That's all he needs as Bushman.  For more sophisticated people they might need more.  The Bushman's basic belief is te essence of what the Prophets came from.  If he has that, he is in a better position than the one who associates partnership with God yet does all sorts of other worship and rituals.  The latter is a fool and damned.

As for learning Arabic, you can get a superficial understanding of the quran, enough to suffice for basic belief, reading its translation in your language and as you said, one will have no excuse that they were unable to read it.  But to really get an in depth meaning, you need to read it in its original language.  Ever heard of "lost in translation?"  The arabic language is rich, if one ever learned it or even tried to learn it you'd see.

"no arab poetry comes close to any western poetry so far. If you have any please don't hesitate to let us know."

-- sorry sir but that is a foolish statement.  Not because it might not be true but because you don't know Arab poetry.  If you did, maybe I would take your word for it.  But until then, that is simply your opinion.  

Finally, and I hope I covered all, the fact that God is the healer and Jesus healed does not in an of itself translate into Jesus being God.  If god truly said that, then so be it but I don't believe he did.  As a logical progression, it does not hold true that because Jesus healed and God is known and the healer that Jesus is God and this is why (notice, I am not arguing against the word of the Bible, that would be pointless, but rather, the illogical assumption you make)

God is known to have endowed several of the prior Prophets with powers that only God can have and we never called them God. No man can split the sea  but God can.  No man can turn a stick into a serpent (give life to a lifeless thing) but Moses did and we never called him God?  Why?  Cause its understood that God helpe him do it by His will.  In fact, I would argue that giving life to an inanimate object like a stick (not the magic the pharoahs minons performed) is greater than giving life to a dead animate thing like a human.  One could argue, the human was never really dead but in a coma and then Jesus just happened upon him when he was awakening (silly argument but can be made).  As for the stick, there is no question it was dead and then not only had life, but had life in the form of a thing other than a stick  - a serpent.  Yet, we don't say that God is the giver of life and Moses gave life to the stick therefore Moses is God.  See, its not consistent in light of what we know about the powers of God.  So, I submit that just because Jesus healed or raised the dead or was born of a virgin mother (Adam had no mother and father and that's even greater) is not sufficient basis to believe that he is God.

God bless.

I tried not to response but Davidylan, you surprised me. First, let me thank babs for pointing out all the versions of the Bible that have different numbers of book and things missen from one and not in the other. But, that is not my concern here.

One of the keys to debate is not just knowing the topic (and I plead ignorance when I do not know) but also knowing how to debate and how to think. Clearly david knows some of this (as he shows you cannot really trash the Bible and then use it as support, unless its to show a point that would otherwise not even need the Bible to be made). But I was surprised by the blunders in this post as it was not a thinking man's post:

David said about olabowale:

Your constant repeating of the same thing over and over again is a sign that you really don't know what you are talking about. (I'll leave that one between the two of you)



Stop talking about our "corrupt" injil. Where is the one allah claimed to have sent down and confirmed? Dont you think you'd be better off finding that one first?

LOL. Well, the one Allah sent down is the one Christians destroyed by not preyou serving it in its orignal language and the vestiges of which you have in your hand today. Allah said he gave the Torah and we see the Torah today as the books of the Jews. He gave the Injil to Isa and what's left of it is what Christians claim to be the "true" word of God.


I asked a straightforward question - did mohammed EVER heal anyone? Dont try dancing around it with your "he will intercede" spin, WHEN and WHERE will he intercede? So if you have a headache now you can't call on his name and recieve healing? \
How many of his colleagues did he heal of their wounds during their many battles? whom did he raise from the dead?

LOL again. And did Moses heal someone, or David or Noah or Abraham, etc, etc. Just because they did not heal anyone, are they then considered not a Prophet. And just because you healed someone, so what? Each Prophet had his own thing. The Pharoahs; people were great with magic and Moses came with truth to destriy their magic as what he was able to do with his stick was not magic. The jews were great with medicine and Jesus came with bigger truth as what he was able to do was beyond medical expertise such as cure the blind and raise the dead. The Arabs were master poets an the Prophet was given the Quran which was far and beyond anything they could muster in poetry. Does the fact that Jesus healed people make him God? That logic does not follow.


Just HOW did allah provide a blue print for salvation in mohammed? What is this blue-print? How do muslims get saved through mohammed and WHAT is the proof of this salvation?

[b]LOL, a third time. How did Jews get saved for that matter. Do all the Jews who died before Jesus go to hell because they never accepted him as lord? I hope not cause that would be done right unfair. So, even if one believes that taking Jesus as lord is the blueprint for salvation now, it must be agreed that before Jesus there must have been a different blueprint.
I submit to you that the blueprint pre the so called "take Jesus as your lord and savior" blueprint you claim is a more universal blueprint and one that will last from Adam till the end of time and covers everyone. Every Prophet came with a message and its "worship one God and do not associate partners with him. This is why the story of the golden calf stands out and why the verses I sighted of Jesus saying don't worship me stand out. Likewise, Muhammad (saW) came with the same message. And for every Prophet, they asked their people to accept them as a Prophet and thus the miracles to prove their Propphethood. Acceptance of the Prrophet is part of the bluerprint as well, so long as you knwo about the Prophet's existence.

Thus, the old principal and the Quranic principle even covers the bush man in the jungles. If the Bushman grows up believing in one God and worshiping no one else besides that God that created him, that Bushman is saved, even if he never heard of Abraham or Moses, or Jesus or Mohammed. But once he is informed of them and is given proof of their messengership, then he is obliged to accept them.

The Christians way damns anyone who never accepted Jesus even if they never heard of him. That is truly unfair and not godlike, if U ask me.[/b]

david:

Second coming? I don't remember leaving .

As for Tawhid, take a look at my last post strictly on Tawhid. To give you a preview, I intend to do one of the miracles of the Quran and preservation (all short stuff cause we could talk days on this subject alone)

And, I plan to do one on how Christians respond to atheists. Or rather, how to respond to atheist/atheism as I see this as one of the greatest threats. Sometimes its not atheism per se but secularism by those who have abandoned God for man. Secular humanism/atheism is very appealing, especially these days.

david

Lakpene is here. I just could no longer deal with your ranting and one sentence attacks. otherwise, I have no problem rationally debating.

U said:
"Why would i wish the thread was never posted? It has only smeared more egg yolk in your faces! "  -- Niggah Pleeeez

I never left,  Jsut could not take your nonsensical rant anymore.  Let guees, I am a liar running away right?  A slave?  proud to me one.

Cry baby just like your fake Jesus/god.  Oh, I'm sorry that was in the 3rd person.  ha.   LOL  that still cracks me up.  3rd person.  LOL.

sEE CONFUSION? LOL. FORGOT ONE THING. YOU AKSED TO TRY BEING BORN OF A VIRGIN BIRTH. SO?

TRY BEING BORN FROM NO MOTHER LIKE ADAM YET WE DON'T WORSHIP HIM. HOW ABOUT GOD ALOUD HIM TO BE BORN OF A VIRGIN MARY AS A SIGN OF HIS GREATNESS AND INDEED HE WAS GREAT. RATHER YOU INTERPRET THAT AS BEING GO. IF HE WAS GOD, HE WOULD NOT EVEN NEED TO BE BORN. YOU ARE A PURE BIG TALKER WHEN IT DOES NOT COUNT AND WHEN YOU ARE ENJOYING ATTACKS ON ISLAM BUT WHEN IT SOME TO TAWHID AND GO BELIEF, YOU ARE A PURE BULLSHITTER. LET ME GUESS, JESUS CAME AS A SON OF A VIRGIN IN THE 3RD PERSON.

GO AWAY.

david:

Just read pst 73.  I neevr saw it but I did read it now.

Honestly, that is the biggest bunch of bulshit I have heard in a longtime.  Jesus was speaking in the 3rd person depsite speaking in the first in the same sentence.  Nice try.  That was one of the most ridiculous shit attempts I have seen at interpreting a verse.   Again, niggah please

3rd person he says.  LOL.  My God, you are as dumb as you sound (sorry for the ad hominens but that was a classic beyond me).  So sometimes Jesus talks about God as himslef and others he says, don't worship me worship God.  How about "worship me as your God."  

That was some real Bullshit, I gotta send this one to Penn and Teller cause its a riot.  Please don't ever speak to me again in your life as I see you are a dishonest twit.  3rd peroson?  3rd person.  niggah pleeeeeeeeeeez.

I know, I know.  Liar liar pants on fire.  that's all you have had to say since we started.  

Oh, before  I forget.  You are the one who alerted me to the verse  about "why have you forsaken me"  Or was Jesus talkin  in the 3rd again.  "why have I forsakeen myself."  Real riot.  That Jeuss that you speak about deserves to be in a nut house.

david: Like I said, go away. You are good at crying but not at debating or arguing. Ad hominens? please. I know you are but what am I (I have to resort to childish things as I see you are one).

Umm, you must subscribe to the school that Jews are exclusively a race of people. The children of Israel are from a progeny but what Allah likes is that he alone is worshipped - which is what Christians do not do. When they deviated from this, Allah did became angry with them. If the Jews followed Allah's guidance, they would be safe. Obviously the Prophets folowed it and they were sent to guide them. This is why we love them. They are free from the errors of the people they seek to guide.

The Christians are misguided. They love God much but they have no evidence or clear book. I admire the Christian love for worship. Unfortunately its misguded worship of a man.

I like how you say the Quran is a fraud and all you have is the Bible.

I am not an Arab cause I was not born one. You were born a Muslim - one who submits to the wil of God. You are not a Jew cause yu reject them for rejecting Jesus. Likewise, we reject you for rejecting God. You have the old testament ( a facsimile thereof) and you reject the Jewish belief - haaaah. They have their hebrew origninals and you have nothing

Tell me again why I am debating about the Bible? BTW, I never said that everything in the Bible was a lie. What I am saying though is that there is so much lie in it, we don't know what is true and what is false, which is why the Quran is the criterion.

Peace

david:

"good attempt to deflect your tomfoolnery. Read post #73 and stop crying.
Please answer my question first! You people like to ask without answering anything!"

U don't have a question, just an opinion. I thought U were smart. I asked the questions first - remember? Tawhid? Why do I care about the Bible v. Quran right now when you have not even answered the essential question of Jesus being God.

I am lazy and don't want to look for #73. Just tell me in two sentences who Jesus was calling out to and why he cried like a little girl. Come on. God, craying out like that. That's idiotic. Please explain.

Finally, why are you not a Jew, please answer.

As for the Quran and the lineage, you answered your questions. Who care about what the Bible has to say that contradicts the Quran. The Bible is not God's word. That's like comparing my work with Shakespeare. The Bible is useless man made babble and you know it. I don't even know why Muslims defend themselves against the Bible since the Bible is nonsense that's not even God's word and Christians have admitted to this.

The Bible was, key word was, the word of God. What you have in your hand today, not it. Its English googlagobligook.

U R useless. Please go away unless you want to talk about serious issued like Tawhid, which is all that matters in this world. Why. Because your Go belief is why you are not a Hindu - whom you call polytheistists. You are no less a polytheist as your supposed God came to earth in the form of man in the same way the Hindu god comes to earth in the form of a monkey or pig or cow, or penis, or any silly thing that He is above.

david:

my, my. Apparently you id not like the fact that the Bible is fake - some of it at least.

U said: u've only just begun the journey to realising that islam is predicated on falsehood and that 90% of muslims are completely ignorant of most of what they claim to believe."

Wow, 90%. You did the survey yourself?

You have never seen me on Nairaland b4, so I am obviously new here. I don't know how to check for post #73, so you can kindly send or cut/paste it for me. I seriously doubt it was from you or that it answered the question anyway. I am very eager to read it.

If you belive all the Prophets came from the line of the Jews and there is no history of Prophets, then why are you asking where are the Prophets from Ishmael. Obviously by your accounts, there are none. And if there are non, that's why Allah did not mention them. LOL. You are truly an unbridled idiot. (get it, unbridled?) LOL.

As for the Allah cursing the Jews, you must be kidding me. Why are you not a Jew? Please answer that question and you will see my point. You always merely offer stupid quibs and jabs and insults with no analysis nor a cognizable point. Dude, you are getting smacked.

Before you quote the Bible again, please let me see an original copy or at least a replica of the original or at least a preseve copy in the same language. Like Allah says, you have no clear book and that bothers you. So, instead of defending that, you atttack the Quran.

Seriously though I would like you to answer the Question of why you are not a Jew.

david:

I still dont get UR point.  Do not take Jews as protectors.  no, you must know what that means.  As for friends.  ITs says do not take them as friends over Muslims.  I would think you should not take a Muslim as a friend over a Christians or as a protector over a Christian.

U said: "The quran claims that Joseph raised his PARENTS to a dais, forgetting that Joseph's mom Rachel died during child birth! "  

Ha, Ha, Ha. LOL.  You site the Bible as a source of historical accounts.  The Bible gives like five diferent lineages of Jesus. Give me a flipping break.  Ever thought the Bible got it wrong?  Eyewitnesses?  Please.  Like we say here in the hoo -niggah pleeez.  YUou must be kidding me.  You don't even know what side of yur book is up.  At least we have the smae book and can trace it back to the original source.  The Bible?  The Bible?  You must be smoking crack.


U said: . MOST IMPORTANTLY - A detailed "revelation" about the Jews! Where are the "revelations" about the people of Ishmeal? Muslims cry about islam coming from the branch of ishmael and YET everything we see in the quran is about the same Jews Allah says you shld never take as friends? "

So.  Allah so favored the Jews and look how they treated Him.  So which story do you think is the best story from which to learn how to behave.  The story of those whom Allah gave much and they disobeyed or the story of someone else.  Obviously the former.  Allah is telling us, look how many Prophets and blessings I sent to the jews and I honored them and chose them an look at their behavior.  Oh Muslims, oh Muslims, do not behave like this.

And Allah warns as as such.  Do not be like the Christians and say I am three, Allah warns.  Do not be like the Jews and say I am poor or follow your Rabbi and Priests when they change the laws of Allah.  This is why the Quran is replete with such stories.  And depsite all of that, Muslims still do it (some, not all.  we see it all over the place and I am not ashamed to point out when Muslims behave badly nor slow in defending Islam vigorously)

Again, where is my explanation for where Jesus said don't praise me.  Where is my explanation for why Jesus would cry out to himslef when he is supposed to be God or why he would be tempted by satan when he is supposed to be God.  Did he forget his lines or something?  This is huge stuff cause is smacks right in the face of the trinity and the anthropomorphication of Allah that Christians are fond of doing.

davidylan:

U said: "Now HERE is the puzzler . . . why is the quran curiously silent on this ishmeal?
WHY did allah choose ALL his "prophets" from the lineage of Isaac AND NOT Ishmael"  

For once I must plead ignorance.  I really do not know exactly which Prophets came from Isaac and which from Ishmale although based on some of the verses in the Quran, we hear Allah mentioning Isaac, then Jacob, then Yusuf, etc.  If the other Prophets came through this progeny, then so be it.  But Allah chooses which lineage he wishes to Bless and the Prophet priased the lineage of Yusuf (Joseph) as he (saw) said that he is the son of a noble son of a noble.  

As for Ishmael, Allah may not have blessed his lineage with as many Prophets.   But so what?  How ironic it is that the Prophet is supposed to be from the lineage of Ishmael and so are the Arabs yet the ones that are spoken about are the precedents of the Jews.  Did that upset the Arabs?  You would think Allah would try to pump up the Arabs no?  No.  Allah grants status to whomsoever he wills and howsoever HE wills.  He definitely blessed the progeny of the Jews and despite all the Prophets that came to them, they remained obstinent.  Glory be to Allah.

But why is this important to the question of Tawhid and where is my answer to the verses of the Bible I posted.

davidylan:

U said: Where are the "prophets" from the lineage of Ishmael?? "

So, what is your point. There are plenty of things in the Quran that's not in the Bible and plenty in the Torah not in the Injeeel. Wait, there is not Injeel today is there, cause its all in English or something other than the language in which Allah revealed it.

Nevermind, what is your point?

The most important topic in theology should be, or is, aqeedah or right belief. The most important issue is belief is tawhid - oneness of God. Why? This is the singular thread that connects all of the Prophets of God. They sometimes came with different laws but all came with the same message - that you only have One God and There Is No God Besides Him. This is the essence of tawhid and the full message of all Prophets. There is a false messiah because he will come with a message, and a bag of tricks, saying that he is God. He will perform all sorts of seemingly miraculous things. he will do things that it appears only God can do, things that even Jesus never did and people will worship him. But, if one is well grounded in Tawhid and Aqeedah, he will, God willing, not fall victim for the false Prophet.

The biggest threat to mankind is the false messiah and its purely becaue he will come with acts that see almost god-like. And where does he get these powers from? Believe it or not God endowed him with them and he serves as a test for the true believers. This is partially why the belief that Jesus is God based solely on the miracles he performed and that he said, or its claim he said, he was God is so dangerous. Using that same logic, the false messiah will come with even bigger miracles (although all false magic) than Jesus came with and people will worship him. How dod you know if someone is false or not - which is one of the reasons the Jews disregarded/regard Jesus as a charlatan.

One way to know is that the Prophets told us that this would happen. Another distinct feature is that because God is eternal transcendant, a person claiming to be Go on earth is an obvious imposter. Many have claimed the same and they were all immeiate imposters. The false messiah tricks are so powerful that despite this wrning, many will fall prey to him.


So, Tawhid can be look at from three perspectives:

1. We beleive that Go is the administrator of all affairs and that the world belongs to Him and He does with it as He pleases. This is the belief in His Lordship

2. We believe that He is the only One, transcendant, worthy of worship and we devote no worship to anything else, be it money, angels, Prophets, ourselves, etc. This is the belief in His singling out to be worshipped alone.

3. We believe in His names and attributes as He describes them to us and we do not liken them to any thing on earth. In other words, and this is where athiests often falter, just because we say God sees does not mean we are anthropomophisizing Him. Rather, God has always had the ability to see, know, hear, create, etc. This are some of His eternal attributes. His word has always exited with Him. We were given the ability to do things that only God has the ability to do - hence his likeness. However, our abilities are in a diminished capacity, hence why there is nothing like Him. He has blessed us with sight and He has sight but His sight is like nothing we can ever imagine or encompass.

Same holds true for knowledge. We learn and then we forget as we get older. There is no such deficiency with Go. All of our attributes are deficient, the most important being the attribute of life itself. God is life.

Nevertheless, there are things that although God is above and will never do. We sleep, but that does not mean God sleeps. We drink and defacate and marry and have children and need love, and die, etc. God does none of these things.

This is why His names and attributes are as He says they are and we do not try to interpret them. We say we believe in them and we do not ask how concerning them. If God says He has hands, we say, we believe. We don't ask what are they like. They would obviously be nothing like what we have. It is whatever it is within his majesty. Likewiese for sight. We say we believe he sees but we don't go into discussion abotu how He seees. does he have eye sockets, etc. We don't do that. We believe in what He says about Himself and we don't ask how. This is a very strict rule and deviation from it is one of the biggest causes for Muslims to fall into disbelief and is what has plagued Christians for centuries.

nwando:

Admittedly, it will take me time to find references about the Pharoah but lets look at the Egyptian hyroglyphics (sp?) and what the scientist tells us about them as well as about their "mythology" Remember the Sun gods who were worshipped and said they were gods themselves and some even claimed they were born of a virgin mother? come one dude, this is common knowledge. How is Jesus any different, other than saying the Bible said so.

Speaking of the Bible, you do understand that no such book of God from the Christians actually exist. For one, the copy in your hands is in English and there is no such thing as an english Bible, save an interpretation of it. There is no such thing as an english Quran either.

Anyway, Jesus is fake as a Lord, real as a Prophet. If he is Lord indeed, the devil would not have tempted him nor would he have been crying like a little girl for his mommy talking about why have you forsaken me. I know I have said that many many times. ITs because no one wants to address how ridiculous that sounds that go would be saying such nonesense.

COME ON?

Davidylan

"the concept of a triangle is man's concept . . . to assume that God is bound by your laws of geometry that all triangles must be 3-sided and then turn around to claim he is "almighty" is sheer hypocrisy and exposes your limited ability to reason logically. "

Umm, no. Lets try a different example. God says I am eternal and then man says, no Jesus, the mortal is God. Sounds like a four sided triangle to me. Better yet, you saw God was tempted by the devil and he cried out for help - sounds like debasing to me. Won't you agree. I sound like a broken record cause u still have not explain how your fake lord can cry like such and be tempted as such.

As for the verses: ( I am adding one extra)

"And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord Thy God and Him only shalt thou serve. Luke 4:8

"And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifte up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked. But he said, Yea rather, blesse are they that hear the word of God and keep it." Mathew 18:32-35

(notice here the woman praised Jesus but he retorted her by saying, no praise the Lord of the worlds alone)

then,

"And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and knele to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life? And Jesus said unto him, why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is, God. Mark 10:17-18.

Seee, the first verse can be interpreted to mean Jesus was talking about himself when he said God. But as for the last two, he made a difference between himself and the Exalted one, warning against over praisee of himself.

Why would Jesus say such a thing or did he forget that he was supposed to play God. See, the above verses are more consistent with the instances in the Bible where Jesus was tempted by the devil and where he cried out to God (although I don't believe he said why have you forsaken me, no prophet, yet alone one you call God would say something so stupid). It is also more consistent with the messages of the prior prophets and the message of Muhammad and indeed, common sense.

your reply.

Davidylan:
U said:

"
Re: Tawhid: The Issue Christians Avoid
« #57 on: Today at 07:55:54 PM »

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Quote from: Lakpenne on Today at 07:08:19 PM
Oh how about the story in the Bible where Moses or someone fought God or something ridiculous like that. OR even how the Angel, which has no free will, revolte and became Satan. Or how a Prophet exposed himself to his child. Or, etc, etc. Like I said, say one thing about the Quran or hadith and we can say two thousand about your Bible. Admittedly, and lucky for you, I don't remmeber much of my Bible stories like I used to .


puerile! Rather than address the question you dribble around with the muslim dishonest approach of oh the bible has worse things too. Remember that the quran believes that God is so immense he can't even be seen by his slaves . . . aha not so my bible! God is so immense that we cannot comprehend His greatness BUT He is so humble that He took on human flesh that He might dine with us, sleep with us and die on the cross for our redemption.
the same God who is so great also came down and wrestled with Jacob . . . that same God would come in the cool of the evening to walk the garden side by side with Adam, aye it was that same God who would speak face to face with Moses and Abraham . . . aha the same almighty Baba who chose to engage Abraham in an argument as regards the people of soddom and gomorrah.

It is this God that muslims can never understand. I don't blame them, their own god thinks so highly of himself that it is beneath him to reach out to those he claimed to have created. . .


Quote from: Lakpenne on Today at 07:08:19 PM
Question to all of you:

1. "what is so special about the Bible that you think its better than the Quran"


If your understanding of faith, salvation and eternity is reduced to "my quran is better than your bible" then you are of all men most spiritually blind.


Quote from: Lakpenne on Today at 07:08:19 PM
2. "what is so special about Jesus that we should believe he is God or son or God. Others have made the same claim before and after him of being God or the son of. What distinguishes Jesus from them? (take Haillie Sellassie as I pointed out before)


To believe in Jesus Christ as God is entirely optional. The bible makes it expressly clear - whomsoever believeth. Dear lakpenne, it is not by force.


Quote from: Lakpenne on Today at 07:08:19 PM
3. Still waiting for someone to show me how God is the uncreated transcendant by definition and then becomes the created ephemeral. Yes God can do anything but there are somethings that are just not part of God's law so therefore they are impossible.


No you are not waiting for anything if not you would have seen the numerous explanations that litter this thread and others. Seeing indeed you see but you cannot percieve.


Quote from: Lakpenne on Today at 07:08:19 PM
For example, can God create a four sided triangle? of course not. But, I thought God could do anything. Yes, but what you are asking is based on a false premise because a triangle by definition is three sided so of course there is no such thing like a four sided triangle, that would be a parallelogram of some sorts.


Matthew 19:26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

Perhaps your own "god" is limited by the laws of geometry and common sense. Thankfully mine isnt.


Quote from: Lakpenne on Today at 07:08:19 PM
Likewise, there is no such thing as a created ephemeral God, that would be a created thing of some sort but definitely not God as God by definition must be transcendant in his Majesty and eternally uncreated without a need for a mover.


all hail "god's" very own press secretary. Perhaps you can enlighten us more on the many other things your "god" can never do.
You claim your god is immense and yet he is limited by your own logical definitions of his percieved greatness?"


In a nutshell, you are criticizing Muslims for Glorifying God and viewing Him constantly in the transcendant way that He should be viewed. Ok, I'll take that criticims.

Still waiting for your response on the two verses I quoted where Jesus basically said "don't worship me"

I still like how instead of offering a counter to my four sided triangle, which does not exist, you simply avoided the debate. So, can your God make a four sided triangle since he is not limited by geometry. I guess so cause he is eternal and ephemeral at the same time. Good luck sellign that one. I got a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you as well.

Pilgrim:  I am shocked at UR response.  Since you rely on the Bible for something that makes no logical sense, I think its fair that if I am questioned about something that may not seem to make sense that I just say the Quran said so.  That's fair I guess.  Anyway, what you have sited below is no different than what others have said before Jesus and more important, we don't even know if its true.

Also, how come neither you nor David have responded to the Biblical verses I sited in which Jesus said don't worship me, worship God/Father.  So, you said:

A.    He Himself claimed to be God. (Umm, so did all the others, and the Pharoah, etc)
                      John 4:26; 8:23; 10:30; 13:13; 14:7-10

       B.    He accepted worship. (so did the Pharoah)
                      Matthew 8:2; 9:18; 14:33; 15:25; 18:26; 28:9, 17
                      Mark 5:6; Luke 24:52; John 5:22, 23; John 9:38

       C.    He claimed the power and authority to forgive sin. (so did the Pharoah and Nimrod and other king gods)                       Matthew 9:6; Mark 2:7

       D.    "He was God manifest in the flesh" (l Timothy 3:16), "for in
               Him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily"
               (Colossians 2:9). (So claimed the Pharoah)

       E.    "God was in Christ" (2 Corinthians 5:19), Who is "the
              brightness of His glory, and the express image of His person, "
              (Hebrews 1:3).  (So said the Pharoah)

       F.   Jesus is therefore throughout scripture referred to as the
             "image of God."
                     John 1:18; 2 Corinthians 4:4; Colossians 1:15
                     Philippians 2:6  (And the Pharoah said that I am your lord most high)[/b]II.    By the names attributed to him in scripture it can be seen that
       Jesus Christ was truly God as well as man. ([b]God as well as man?  oximoronic.  one or the other, not both.)
      A.    "Mighty God."   Isaiah 9:6
      B.    The Word of God.   John 1:1; Revelation 19:13, 16
      C.    "Immanuel," meaning "God with us."   Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:23
      D.    The Almighty.   Revelation 1:8
      E .   The "I Am."   John 8:58 with Exodus 3:14
      F.    "My Lord and my God!"   John 20:28
      G.     The "Alpha and Omega" (first and last).  
                    Isaiah 44:6; 48:12; Revelation 1:8, 11, 17; 2:8; 21:6; 22:13
      H.    Son of God.   Matthew 17:5; Mark 1:1; Luke 1:35; 1 John 4:15

    -  He also said do  not worship me, worhsip God/Father

III.   Jesus Christ possessed all the attributes of God.

       A.    He was (is) omniscient (all-knowing). (was he, but he sought help from God when in distress)                        John 4:25, 26, 29; 6:64; 13:11; 19:28; 21:17

               1.    He knew their thoughts. (by the Grace of God) (did he not know the devil was coming to tempt him?)                               Matthew 9:4; 12:25; 22:18; Mark 2:8; 12:15
                              Luke 5:22; 6:8; 9:47; 11:17
                              John 2:24, 25; 5:42; 6:6; 16:19, 30; Acts 1:24

                2.  He even foretold His own death by crucifixion. (By the Grace of God, how is this any more special than split the sea)                               Matthew 16:21; 17:22, 23; 20:18, 19
                              John 2:19, 21, 22; 12:23, 24, 32-33

         B.   He is omnipresent (everywhere). (yet, he was always in one place when on earth)                      Matthew 18:20; 28:20; Ephesians 1:23

         C.   He is omnipotent (all-powerful). (then who was he crying out to)
                       Daniel 7:13, 14; Matthew 28:18
                       John 3:31, 35; 17:2; 1 Peter 3:22

          D.   He is eternal. (yet he died and was ressurected, then died again and will return, LOL)                         1 Timothy 1:17; 6:16; Revelation 1:4, 5

                 1.    Scripture claims that Christ was pre-existent to the
                        creation of the world, that He was present with the
                        Father from the beginning of time.
                               Genesis 1:26; 3:22; 11:7 (",  us ,  our ,  our , "
                               Proverbs 8:22-36; Isaiah 48:12, 16; Micah 5:2
                               John 1:1-3, 10; 3:13; 6:62; 17:5, 24; 8:35, 58
                               1 Corinthians 8:6; Ephesians 3:9; Philippians 2:5
                               Colossians 1:15-19
                               Romans 11:36; Hebrews 1:2; Revelation 3:14
        AND?  Some crazy Muslims say Muhammad was the first soul created.  As nice as that sounds and makes Muhammad sound all that much more special, its not true and we reject such nonesense.

                  2.   Jesus is "the first and the last" (Isaiah 44:6; 48:12;
                        Revelation 1:11, 17), the "Alpha and Omega, the
                        beginning and the end" (Revelation 1:8, 11; 2:8;
                        21:6; 22:13).

          E.    He is unchanging.
                        Hebrews 13:8
                        John 8:58; 18:6 with Exodus 3:14 ("I AM"
                        Revelation 1:17, 18 ("the Living One"

(Sounds more like God than a dead man)

IV.    Some claim that the death of Jesus Christ on the cross is proof that
        He could not have been God. What evidence is given in scripture
        to refute this argument?

         A.    Jesus' death on the cross was not due to failure or weakness
                on His part. It was entirely voluntary.
                          Matthew 26:39, 42; Luke 22:42; John 10:17, 18
                          Philippians 2:5-9

          B.    It was the will of God that He suffer and die. (will of God or Jesus, or both, or neither)                           Isaiah 53:10   "Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him, "

          C.    He even foretold His own death by crucifixion.
                           Matthew 20:18, 19; 16:21; Mark 8:31; 9:31; 10:32-34
                           John 2:19, 21, 22; 12:23, 24, 32, 33

          D.    He said that He had the power to lay down His life and had
                  power to take it back again.
                          John 10:17, 18

           E.    It was not necessary for Him to be defended, He said, for He
                  could have called upon the Father to send 10,000 legions of
                  angels for His protection.
                          Matthew 26:50-54

           F.   He overcame death by rising again. The resurrection alone
                 should be sufficient evidence of His divinity. (See Section
                 VI-E).

V.    Why was it necessary that He should become a man and die?

        A.     ",  that through death He might destroy him that had the
                 power of death, that is, the devil."
                           Hebrews 2:14

        B.    To "deliver them who through fear of death were all their
                lifetime subject to ."
                          Hebrews 2:15

        C.    ",  that He might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things
                pertaining to God ,  in that He Himself hath suffered being
                tempted, He is able to succour them that are tempted."
                          Hebrews 2:17, 18; 4:14-16

         D.   ",  to make reconciliation for the sins of the people."
                          Hebrews 2:17

Why can't God just do that without the whole song and dance, why does he have to come all the way down here to die.  sounds weak to me dude.  He is Almighty, Sublime, Akbar, Transcendant, Life, Without death, Without sleep or slumber, Everything in the Heavens and Earth praises Him.  

We Muslims Glorify and Magnify His greatness while Christians debase and belittle His Majesty.

pilgrim:

"Have you forgotten that Muhammad was a fantastic story teller? Please, how do we explain the one about where Muhammad reported that Moses slapped the angel of death so severely and thereby wounding the eye of the angel?"

Oh how about the story in the Bible where Moses or someone fought God or something ridiculous like that. OR even how the Angel, which has no free will, revolte and became Satan. Or how a Prophet exposed himself to his child. Or, etc, etc. Like I said, say one thing about the Quran or hadith and we can say two thousand about your Bible. Admittedly, and lucky for you, I don't remmeber much of my Bible stories like I used to .

Question to all of you:

1. "what is so special about the Bible that you think its better than the Quran"

2. "what is so special about Jesus that we should believe he is God or son or God. Others have made the same claim before and after him of being God or the son of. What distinguishes Jesus from them? (take Haillie Sellassie as I pointed out before)

3. Still waiting for someone to show me how God is the uncreated transcendant by definition and then becomes the created ephemeral. Yes God can do anything but there are somethings that are just not part of God's law so therefore they are impossible.

For example, can God create a four sided triangle? of course not. But, I thought God could do anything. Yes, but what you are asking is based on a false premise because a triangle by definition is three sided so of course there is no such thing like a four sided triangle, that would be a parallelogram of some sorts.

Likewise, there is no such thing as a created ephemeral God, that would be a created thing of some sort but definitely not God as God by definition must be transcendant in his Majesty and eternally uncreated without a need for a mover.

Please answer my questions since you are so smart.

nwando:

"I had posted the various arabic Korans available today with different arabic characters with different meanings,I guess he missed that part.
And is busty thumping what some deceptive mallam told him in Koranic school,when history says otherwise."

This is indee delicious. Let us assume you are write about the Quran. Hello, the Bible is 100 times worse with defects. LOL, LOL, LOL. I am simply amused when Christians try to attack the Quran as being defective when their entire book as a bunch of post Jesus blatherings that atheistist have ripped to shreds.

Isn't that true, that your Bible has been shredde already? Just go here: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Troy/3138/bibleex1.htm

I know people try to do the same with the Quran but don't you see the point? What ever U say about the Quran, assuming its even true, ten more things can be said about the Bible. You guys kill me. Talking so much smack as if you have an authentic Book. Even the Jews reject your Bible.

Please stop the madness.

nwando:

"This hadith clearly shows that Muhammad never made a final collection of the Qur'an before his death, for when Abu Bakr was asked to collect the Qur'an into one volume he said: How can you do something Allah's Apostle did not do? Muhammad did not make a final collection of the Qur'an because there were many of his companions whom he trusted to teach the Qur'an and these made their own collections: "

Oh does it. See this is the problem, and Muslims do it too, with not knowing the context of a story. Do you think Muslims would say the Quran is preserved despite the interpretation of the haith cited above.

Lets assume the Quran was never written in volumes. So what? The Arabs had a rich and vibrant oral tradition, the same one which we use to pass own the Quran. We have the Quran in text form and yet, people take the time out to put it to pure memory.

A further reading of the compilation of the Quran tells you that the Quran actualy was written own of different parchments and other items - in its entirety. It was just never written down on one volume like Umar eventualy ordered. So, when they compiled it, then double an trippled checked people's memory with the written parchments to make sure it matched with the final volume. This was done shortly after the Prophet's death, unlike the Bible which was not even completed during Jesus' lifetime.

Also this story shows you how much respect the companions had for tradition. And also shows you the elasticity of the Shariah. the companions, who understood the sunnah best understood that although the Prophet never put the Quran in one volume, had he been alive, the exigent circumstances (dying at battle) would have likely made the Prophet to do the same.

So, nwando, there is the real history, in short, behind the complitation.

Davidylan:
"There are literarily tens of bible verses clearly identifying Jesus Christ as God right from the old testament. . . the books of Isaiah and the psalms are just one example. You claim that the bible says otherwise YET you have miserably failed to show me JUST ONE verse that backs up your rant."

In which Bible.  LOL, LOL LOL, LOL.  Get it?  which Bible, Get it.  There is only one Quran dude.  UR book is corrupt.  Its not even in it the orginal language.  All you have in your hands in a bunch of useless interpretations.  The injil, which you have corrupted does not exist anymore as God revealed it so U are left with the Bible.  Please bring me "THE BIBLE" and we can talk.  I can bring u a copy of "THE QURAN" in its original text.  Even if you were to say the Quran is not the word of God ro revelation, damn at least I have the original thing that was claimed to be the word of God.

If you at some point had the word of God, you sure don't anymore.  You have Paul's book, filled with truth and lies about the transcendant One.

With respect to verses in the old testament that says Jesus is God, where are they and how do you conform that with those say he is not and the God has no partners.  

You admit Jesus cried out like a little girl saying God why have you forsaken me and also said that he was tempted by Satan.  Please, in what Universe will God cry like a little girl and to whom was he praying asking for help.  Himself?  U know what we do with people like that.  Jesus is not God based solely on that argument alone and indeed, that is not the behaviour of one that is a Prophet so I deny that this event is autentic, even if its in the Bible.

See, I can argue all day on logic without resort to the Quran or Bible.  If Jesus is a Prophet and one who is annointed, does it make sense, logical sense that he cries over spilled milk when Isaac/Ishmael submitted?  I have made mention of this point several times and you keep dodging it.  Why?  Logic, dude, logic.

Mark 10:17-18:

"And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?  And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good?  There is none good but one, that is God."

Whoops, blows you away doesn't it.  If Jesus was God, then who is this God that's Good.  If its God above, then Jesus is not divine.  If you say he is then we have two divine beings?  Logic baby, logic.  So, how do you explain the above in light of your fake verses that claim Jesus said he is God.  They must be fake cause they are not supported by any other Prophetic warnings prior to Jesus.

Then:  Luke 11:27-28:

"And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and paps which thous hast sucked.  But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it."

How come u guys don't draw our attention to these verses and at least try to explain them.  Clearly Jesus in this verse is warning us against over praising him and that all praise is due to God Almighty.  See, I waited for you to bring up the the issue of the Biblical passages and then hit u with the the above.  Oh, I got more.  Bring it.

See, the above passage is consistent with what the prior Prophets said, what Jesus actually said and what Mohammed, after Jesus, said - worship God an praise Him, don't over praise man.  That Jesus is God is completely inconsitent verses and common sense.

Pilgrim, you are late and have added nothing to athe argument:

you say Mohammed was considered Lord among Muslims - although many Muslims today deny the fact!  - proof please, proof

Once again, deal with my challenge which is explaining how the eternal God can also be ephemeral.  You can't.

You ask such Q like where outside the Quran is such and such.  Where outside the Bible is Jesus God, not in the torah which preceded the Bible.  not in the Quran which suceeded  the Bible and indeed, I arguee, not in the Bible itself as it contradicts the ten commmandments and the warnings of God as told to  the prior Prophets and also logic.

Please, lets talk sense here.  You are either divine and transcendant or you are not.  I sound like a broken record cause no one can provide a rational logic proof of how God is eternal yet ephemeral other than  saying cause the Bible says so.  Nonesense.  

So God is eternal uncreated and then created Himself in the form of Jesus.  Jesus! that's nuts.  Logic please, logic.

"If you do believe then that Jesus Christ will come to kill the anti-christ then you are indirectly saying He is coming to kill islam eh?"

Umm, no. the annointed one is the one who is the deliverer of a people. The one who has been wiped over (annointed or messiah) such that he is able to perform miracles by the will of God as a sign to the people. The anti-christ or the false messiah will come to wipe over things by making it seems as if he possessed the powers of the one who has been wiped over (messiah). Jesus never died and it was written for him to defeat the false messiah since he is the one called the messiah and he shall return to finish the job.

Why not the Prophet Muhammad? Not his job. Why not Mohammed splitting the sea to allow the Jews to cross? Not what was written for him. Nevertheless, this does not prove the divinity of Jesus. BTW, just because Jesus is returning does not make him God.

The problem with what you have said is that the only proof of Jesus' divinity is in the Bible despite the fact that the same Bible says otherwise. Now, I agee that there are instances where God does tings that defy what we are accustomed to by with the issue of Jesus' claimed divinity, God even defies himself.

Take the ten commandments. The first like three or four all pretty much send the message that God is one and u should not set up partnership with them. Yet, Jesus is exaclty that. Then the Prophets before Jesus admonished their people against setting up partnership with God, then Mohamed says the same thing and as I have expounded before, the transcendant nature of God requires that he is also not ephemeral. Now, in the Bible, God supposedly comes and blows out of the water everything he send prior messengers to preach against. Makes no sense. Logic, the Quran, the other Prophets, the Bible itself in some sections say the total opposite. I would side with what God, his Prophets and logic says together than with what the apostle Paul or someone that wrote those sections of the Bible claim.

In particular, look at the third commandment: "You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth"

This is a clear commandment against idol worship of anything other than God, whether in heavens or earth or in the sea. What is Jesus except an ephemeral being on earth.

U said about Paul's lettter: "Note: that phrase "God was manifest in the flesh" . . . that is Jesus Christ being refered to as God by those who not only heard him speak but knew Him much more than we do today."

-- this is Paul speaking. Even if it was Jesus, how do we know if this part of the Bible is the true part or the changed part, Does not matter b/c it can be evaluated independently based on what it says. The ten commandments and everyone says, one God, no idol worship. this passage says worship some man on earth because God came as flesh. pure nonesense. A thing cannot e both divinely eternal and also ephemeral. thus, this passage must be corrupt.

I started replying to your other post but lost it and do not want to rewrite. But, this is my question, "What is so special about Jesus that he is now God."

Every Prophet is special and so is Jesus but not such that he is now God. Never. Sure Muslims believe Jesus will return, where have you been. and we believe he will kill the anti-christ.

"The God of the bible, though above all His creations, still regards us NOT as mere creations BUT as His children and joint heirs with Him in eternal life. Those are key points that are starkly absent in islam."

-- and how are we His children? More important, how does that even translate into Jesus being God. Still stands that He is transcendant and nothing like us.

"Perhaps you can explain how a child can be born by a virgin and yet remain "non-transcedent"."

Umm, perhaps you can explain how Adam had no mother or father yet he is not transcendant. See how stupid that argument was?

"i'm not shocked at this, since mohammed could not do any miracles the default islamic response is to cry "prove the miracles of Jesus ever happened"! "

Umm, you missed the point again. If you claim we cannot prove any of the Prophet's miracles other than the fact that they are mentioned in hadith, then sure as hell you can't prove any of the other Propeht's miracles as they only apprear in the Bible. Point being, the arguments gets you nowhere. At least we have an unchaged book hadith making a historical account of events.


"This allah is a puzzle to himself . " Thought u might go there. See, there are definitely things about Allah that cannot be understood, like the extent of his majesty. And then there are some simple things that we can understand. Again, you fail to address the point.

The fact that Allah says he cannot be understood yet there are some logic ways of understanding Him is not unique to the Quran. ITs in the Bible and Torah and indeed is a logical progression. So, since you avoid to address it, let me make the connection for you. you believe in God yet you cannot see Him. He cannot be seen by man and this is one of those many things that cannot be comprehended on this earth about God. He is all knowledgeable and we know this yet we cannot understand the extent of his knowledge. IT makes logical sense that he is all seeing and all knowledgeable - do you disagree with this.

We believe that he is the beginning and end but we cannot really comprehend the extent of what that means. Because he is the transcendant unmoved mover, He is indeed like nothing else. This makes perfect human logical sense. The extent of these attributes, we will never comprehend on this earth. This earth is limited and we will never comprehend it fully cause He is like nothing else. Jesus on the other hand, is just like us, He eats, sleeps, defacates, will marry when he returns, dies, etc. Nothing special

See, that's how you make an argument, unlike the usual opinions you spew.

"sure from an islamic point of view it dare not make sense" Ok, Davidylan, please make logical sense of how God can be transcendant and also non-transcendant. he can be eternal yet limited, having a beginning and end. Please explain, I would love to hear this babble.

Notice when you responded initially, rather than answer my questions, you avoided providing any logical explanation. Like I said, its the issue Christians avoid because even the Bible does not support, nor does simple logic.

From a atheistic scientific view, the world must have been created by something that it, itself has no beginning (atheists agree to this but disagree that this "it" is God). Thus, the mover, must have been eternal and unlike anything else that exists after it. Jesus is not eternal and therefore cannot be God. Please don't give me the word became spirit and flesh nonesense. If that's the case, what is so unique about God. Why can't Haile Selasie be God as Rastas claim. They said he had God in him. If Jesus can be God, so can Haille. But you dismiss Haille but accept Jesus. Why? Makes no sense. Let me guess, miracles right? Prove those miracles ever happpened

See, the arguments I am proposing does not need the existence of the Quran or Bible or Torah to be supported. IT is supported by logic and common sense, as Allah said.

I have found Christians busy themselves with what amounts to mindless attacks on Islam concerning issues that they have no historical context. Even assuming that some of their arguments are valid as an attacks on the validity of Quran, the same attacks can be labelled on them. The only thing, it seems, that Christians can always fall back on is the fact the Jesus, the son of Mary, never fought in a war and was "peaceful." However, they never seem to mention that in the book of revelations, I believe, Jesus will return and fight in a war and kill many Jews. What do you think the dominionist evangelical Christians of the USA believe. But, be that as it may, this issue is also not improtant considering the issue of religious validity. The key question is one of theological belief about God.

We have all heard the arguments for and against the trinity but what is missing in that argument is the real theological question it evokes. Who is God and what is His nature. In this issue, Christians fail miserably. Muslims have the habit it quoting the Bible when arguing about the non-existence of the trinity but when a Christians respond with another verse from the Bible to support their claim, the Muslim is stumped. why? Cause he loses sight of the key logical theological question.

Christians and Muslims believe that God is the Alpha and Omega, the one who has no beginning nor end. He is transcendant and above all of His creation and cannot be compared with his creation which is why He is UNIQUE. One of the most important verses in the Quran is that "there is nothing like Him." If there was something like Him, then He will not be Unique nor the Alpha or Omega.

So basically, this is the argument of why Christian theology concerning the trinity and Jesus being god makes no logical or theological sense. There are two things that exist -God and everything else. The difference between the two is that God is eternal with no beginning or end, as explained above. Jesus has a beginning and end. In fact, according to the Bible, Jesus has several beginnings and ends. He was born, then died, then resurrected, then he will return and again and fight, and I assume die again. That hardly sounds like the transcendant God that's worthy of worshipping.

Anyone that says Jesus is God is a liar. Not because the Quran says so - which is does - but because Jesus would never say something like that. Abraham, Adam, Noah, Moses, David, etc, etc all said, you have one God. Then Jesus comes along and completely puts the world on its head? Makes no sense because its simply a lie. Then Mohammed comes along and says the same thing Noah and Abraham etc says. Just on sheers numbers alone, the lies of those that claims Jesus is God is overpowered.

It simply makes no sense - logically or theologically.

- BY CHANCE