₦airaland Forum

Peperspray, Chris and the other atheist person:

I am not a x-tain but the simple answer is that God does not forget. With respect to always asking God over and over again, this is not necessary but if you do this with sincerity, then what is the problem since God always likes to be asked. To ask God for assistance, whether it comes henceforth or never even comes for that matter, you are rewarded for asking God for assistance. Why would you not be rewared. By asking, you are recognizing that God is in control of everything, that you are not in control and that you are in need of his assistance and is an admission of your humility to thr one who created you.

From my religous perspectivre, if you ask God for something, and he loves to be asked, one of three things will happen: (1) it is answer , (2) your sins are removed from you just by asking or (3) you will receive a reward fro askin in the hereafter.

As for the fact that a non-Answer from God means he does not exist, this is like saying several letters written to President Bush for pardon by Tookie Williams, which were never answered, means that Bush does not exist.

Rather, God existence is as simple as the watchmaker analogy. If there is a watch, there is a watch maker. IF there is a world, there is a world maker. That is not a leap of faith but simple logical impressions based on observations.

CHRIS: by the way, I do have the buildings blue print in my possession and its a marvel.

As for the ultimate question of God belief, the question and logic is quite simply. It is truly as old as the "clockmaker" argument, which I think atheist have failed to properly counter - other than by computerized dramatizations of how things come about with no intelligence to form a working - albeit simple - machine.

There are many atheist scientist who have dropped the tired and old "there is no reason to believe in God" to a more realistic "there is a scientific explanation for God belief." just so I am not attacked for being disingenuous, these atheist scientist in no way say that there is scientific proof that god exists, rather they posit that there is evolutionary and biolgical explanation for why people believe in God. This is different from the old argument that people merely needed to explain things and therefore formed a God belief. What these scientist submit is that even if that is true, there must be an explanation why, depsite scientific advances and explanation for some of these held superstitions, people persisit in their God belief. I submit that the universality of God belief, unlike anything else, save love, hate, fear, etc, is one of the arguments for God belief (not the only or the strongest)

Chris: my man, drop the God thing for a minute. Again and again, it was facetious because, as we posited, only an idiot or someone who believes 911 was the miracle of God would believe the official story. My basica poiint is that the official story is a lie - even if you dont necessarily buy my alternative "bomb" theory.

now, I agree dynamite, and not bomb, is the better word here. you ask how could people not know and that it would have to be put in targeted places or else the building will scatter all over. Well, isnt what happened exactly what it would look like if the building was laced with targeted dynamite? How did the hit affect the building and the fire? Well, I can say for sure that I dont know for sure. But, I can say also for sure that based or prior and subsequent experience with building on fire, 2 hours is hardly enough time for the building to lose so much strength to collapse in light of the fact that the fire was gasping for air as indicated by the balck smoke.

Even if we take that the building lost its strength and collapsed, it owuld have to be a universal collapse, meaning that all the joints, braces, trusses, etc all basically gave way at the same time. Otherwise, there is no way of explaining the near free fall speed of the fall. Otherwise, there is no way of explaining how the top 1/3 of the building would crush the bottom (thousands of tons) 2/3 of the building as if it was not even there.

You believe in the theory of evolution because there are certain indices that scientists use to say to themselves, "look if the world came about by say "x theory" and not the theory of evolution, the world would look different." Well, if the buildings came down by the pancake "official" theory" it would look different. On the otherhand, if the building came down by dynamite, it would look just like it did on 911.

Now, you forget WTC 7 which had no plane hit it and had barely any fire. Mind you also that there is a BBC report that WTC 7 fell, way before the building itself fell. Where did BBc get this from? Hmmmmm. Did someone give them the script and they forgot to verify the building first before making the news announcement? Hmmmmmm. How could you lace a building with explosives and no one know? Well, if oyu truly wanted to lace a building with explosives and not have anyone know, you would figure out a way to do it. How does the government conduct black ops operations undetected. They find a way.

Chirs:

Again, Olabowale was being facetious. I think his point, and my poiint, is that the government has given us a theory of WTC 1 and 2 which is unacceptable based on current scientific understanding. The other alternative theory, that there were bombs in the building is consistent with: (1) the speed of the falling object, (2) the nature of how the building spewed portions of itself all around downtown Manhattan, (3) the way the building was virtually pulverized into fine dust, (4) the eye witness statements, including fire fighters and police, that they heard explosions and felt explosions, (5) consitent with the statement of one fire fighter that the flames in one building could have been brought under control and so much more.

I completely appreciate your point that we did not learn of what truly caused the titanic to sink and when we did, the answer seemed so obvious and reasonable. but, if we take the government scientists, they themselves state that the planes hitting the building could not have caused the collapse. PErhaps the building was hit in such a way and dislodged a particular portion of the trusses that would have caused such a "global" collapse that defied all expectations. Fair enough, but there is something terrible wrong with even that assumption

1. This not only happened in WTC 2 but miraculously the same thing hapened again to WTC 1. What are the chances the same exact unexpected or unexaminable cause would happen on the same day at nearly the same time, causing the same exact results. Next to Zero. But on 911 it happened twice. But it gets worse

2. On 911 it happened three times. The third time to a building never hit by a plane but causing the same result, albeit with a different process. WTC 1 and 2 almost literally blew into pieces from top to bottom in the same manner. WTC 7 fell down into its own footprint like a classic demolition.

3. So, if we cannot accept the official story - which is in my opinion completely false and people refuse to accept a logical explanation that bombs were used to bring down the building, then for now, based on the near miraculous nature of three buildings falling on the same day with like results and like speed and for such a thing never to have happened before or after that day, I suggest the God theory.

I am not a proponent of the God theory - although theologically I am the opinion that nothing happens unless God allows it to happen (be it good or bad). But, I offer the God theory to those who reject the "bomb" theory as the only reasonable - no matter how improbable it sounds - theory to 911.

As an aside, some have argued that it would take weeks, if not months to plant bombs in the building to bring it down like that. I say, great, that proves my point. Forget how long it would take, Rather, focus on the fact that to bring a building like that down in that much of a hury - all three of them - would take lots of bombs. Yet, they want us to believe, as the official story goes, that on 911, three of them fell without a single bomb used when on any other given day it would take thousands of bombs to do the same thing.

Open your minds, my fellow immigrants. America is an amazing country and I thank and love the people hear. But as for the government, they only care about getting rich and are jsut as croocked as the Nigerians. The difference, and its a big one, between here and Nigeria are the relative freedoms we still enjoy (albeit much has been taken back) and the fact that despite the corruption, we, the citizens, are allowed to enjoy the finer things in life.

Oh, NEPA dont take lite, gotta go.

Chrsis: who cares about the titaninc which happened somewhere out far and far away where no one could see it happen which was not based on defying laws of science. The titanic sank and based on our knowledge of science of that, if a ship sinks that means it had a whole in it, what was the cause of the hole, that would stand to be determined.

On 911, a two buildings fell and every single scientist agreed it did not fall because of the towers simply being hit by the plane. So what caused it? That stands to be determined within a reasonable set of possibilities. Go back to the titanic for a second. LEts say the titanic snak in three minutes, logic would say the titanic had a huge whole in it and that could either be caused by a bomb that blue open a massive hole or something else that caused such a massive whole. If someone said it was a slow leak, it would be laughable. On 911 the buildings fell in nearly free fall speed. Based on laws of physics, gravity, falling objects, blah blah blah, one would have to assume that something other than mere gravity caused those buildings to fall so damn fast, and the pnacake theory would therefore be eliminated form the equation as it is based on one floor falling on the other and being subject to the natural laws of gravity. The fall defied was would be a normal fall based solely on gravity.

now, take building 7 which also fell at free fall speed or thereabouts and was not hit by a plane. There was nary a fire in this building but there are speculations about a portion of the building being taken out by flying debris from WTC 2 (whihc parenthetically shows that the pancake collapse does not fit because huge peices of a building would not be blown nealry a block and a half away to hit WTC 7 unless there were explosives - and the sound of explosions and fire cracker sounds (just like the owns you hear just before a demolition) were said to have been heard by many many people).

Not to mention that several months after 911 a hotel in Madrid burned for over 24 hours with flames spewing from the bonfire and all that was left was the skeleton. Likewise, buildings around the WTC which were set ablaze never fell but left behind a skeleton shell of its former self. Now the WTC 1 and 2 wrere engineering marvel like none other but succumbed to simple fire. Why do we need demolition teams. Jsut set a building on fire and let it self destruct like WTC 1 and 2 and even 7.

See, the problem you and others are having, by being disingenuous, is the same problem you accuse theists off. The theory of evolution, which is accpetd as near gospel and absolute thruth is based on observations, calculations and comparison with other presently observable occurences, which is used to to eliminate other theories - such as the biblical account - of the evolution or coming about of things. The same theory is used in investigating 911 and it leads to a conclsusion vastly different from the official story but the religious atheist and insincere atheist refuse to accept the truth that is larger than the elephant in the room.

Chis, :
interesting you say:
Do you fully understand the structure of the two towers, the engineering connections that kept them standing? the ones that failed or the ones that remained that could have held the building together? You and Olabowole know ZILCH about structural engineering so why would an educated answer even make sense to you?

Well, none of the government engineers who have offered a theory were there to see what happened but they offered a theory as to the cuase of the collapse which is contrary to the knowledge that they had the day before the collapse. The new theories are not so new but old but are used as an attempt to explain something that those theories cannot explain. The pancake theory, which is based wholly on computerized samples lookas nothing like what happened on 911. In fact, according to the same pancake theory that has been accepted as the official theory, what should have been left of the building is a pancake of floor on top of floor. 911 looks nothing like that. And as for WTC 7, they have given us three differen theories and are waiting for anohter one.

Atheist always resort to the "we dont know everything about science yet and we are still discovering things" But, when theists usee the same argument, atheists respond that we must act according to the knowledge we have now and not some possible knowledge to be discovered in the futute. See how disingenuous atheists are?

All that nonesense about did you see the inside, etc is just that - nonesense. We have manay many first hand witnesses who said they heard loud explosion in the basement and that part of the equation is just dismissed. The planes hit hundred of floors up and there are explosions in the basement and then explosions all around the building sounding like "firecrackers." This has all been pretty mich dismissed and not factored into the equation. The janitor for WTC 1 and 2 gave testimony about what he witnessed that day and none of that made the official report. In fact, WTC 7 collapse never even made the report. This is a criminal case and if this was any other criminal case, we would not accept the blunders in investigation, the evidence left out, the

Please dont be disingenuous and use the same criteria for 911 that you use for other things. The government has given us nothing.

Daviddyland and Chrisbenogor:

It is obvious that both I and Olabolwale are correct in our analysis and all we hear from you two and others is jibber-jabebr jibberish. Again, it is obvious that Olabowale was being facetious but his point is well taken : "one cannot be an theist and also beleive in the official 911 story." To believe in it is to disregard scientific fact - something atheists are proud off.

Both I and olabowale have offered a bit of concern about the scientific anamolies of 911 and all we get back is the religous rant of atheists who have no response but "blah blah blah." I am still waiting for a well thought out an educated response.

It is obvious that in some ways Olabowale is being facetious.  However, I believe the point he is trying to make is that one cannot be an atheist and also believe in the official 911 story.

Atheism is supposedly built on facts and sceintific evidence and not the so superstiion of the Theist nor on miracles.  however, in order to believe in the official 911 story one will have to dismiss an entire comprehension of scientific beleif which was entirely defied on 911.  Even beliefs about our security - which prior to 911 the govt led us to beleive were true, were also defied.  So, what gives.

The only explanation for 911, f you do not beleive the people who suggest that the government was involved in carrying out 911, is to believe that God set it all up.  No one, and I mean, no one, is able to carry out what happened on 911 without either (1) help from someone inside the US govt or (2) help from God directly Himself.  Think about 911 a different way.  During the cold war, when we had much less superior spying and defense technology, if a general said to the US president that we could do a 911 style sneak attack on the Russians and get away with it, he would lose his job as a crazy nut.  Yet, on 911, Osama, with just a cell phoine and a few Arab - who are notorious for never being on time and getting this right, managed to do the impossible and improbabale completely and utterly undetected.

If you beleive this is possible, then I dont see why its so hard to believe God exists because that was either government involvement or the works of a supernatural power.

Please find a scientifically sound explanation for WTC 7 falling or even WTC 1 and 2 falling due to a fire that was barely surviving.  If you cant find one and you are an atheist, then you must accept a more reasonable explanation for the fall.  Even if the alternative explanation is, lets say, improbabale, if its more probabale than the official explanation, then it must be accepted as the more probabale explanation until someon can come up with a better one.  So the choices are three:

1. the buildings (WTC I, II and 7)  fell because of fire
2. The building fell because they were purposely blown up and made to fall
3. God caused them to fall by whatever means he chose

Now, we have not even touched the Pentago, which is more fodder for the God theory.

@Stimulus, KAG and others, I think:

Sitmulus I believe said: A belief system is not such a natural inclination - if it were, there would be no atheists, skeptics or agnostics today!

The problem with your type of reasoning is to assume a default position and make every effort to justify that position without having carefully considered what other plausible explanations there might be as pointers to the emergence of a belief system.

If I assume the default, I think others hav likewise assumed a default. But there must be a default nonetheless. the only questions is, which one is it. The idea that the existence of atheism defeats the claim that God belief is a default is simply wrong. Firstm there arent even that many atheist compared to theists - os on the numbers alone, they lose as a proposition of what is more likely a natural trend. Humans are unusual in that we have something called free will which God has given us, which may be used to either turn away from our natural inclination to spirituality or bring us even closer. Look at yourself stimulus.

You had your own doubts and debates until your brother showed you the return to God belief and as you have argued elsewhere, many people might reject a certain religious concept but they maintain their spirituality. why, cause its their innate connection to God. It would stike me as odd that the omnipotent God that created man, left us with no natural inclination to Him - that to me would be a grosss miscalculation.

As olobowale had suggested, what came first atheism or theism. if its theism, then God created Adam an atheist? Or even if oyu buy the evolution line, at what point then did man begin to beleive in God. I suggested=, and perhaps I am misunderstood, that it is a natural inclination but not one like the inclination to eat. Rather, it is innate and eventually, we all succcumb to asking those simple questions - even if we were left on an island with no other societal influence. The birds are born with their natural insitinctive inclinations. Parents help in some aspects of teaching them said instincts. That however does not suggest that simply because one is assisted in it that its not instinctive.

I think it was stimulus who suggested that these scientist who talk about the God-gene, etc may not have fully studied the subject - and perhaps change their minds tomorrow. Very well then, this is one of the arguments I use against the atheist themselves. That whole virtual particle stuff could be bown out of the water and abandoned tomorrow upon new discoveries. For me, there is a more natural reason and logical reasoning for belief in God.

Sure people make scientific arguments related to the Quran and they might completely right but, that's not why I beleive because the scientists could just say, oh, we were wrong. and then what oh, Muslim, oh, xtian? was the bible and quran right or wrong., For me, whatever Allah says in the Quran is what it is, I don't need a scientist to confirm it for me, even if it makes no sense to them.

finally, the Times articles does not read well and I did not - so that we have no misgivings here - attach it necessarily as prove positive of my point. Rather, some people don't believe anything except if it comes from a scientific angle. I attached to suggest that some scientists - all atheists - have been looking into the issue of humnas being "hard-wired" to God belief. Why? Cause it makes sense and will explain a lot if its is indeed true. I submit it is true. Why? Becuase Allah says God belief is out "fitra" or our natural inclination and this makes sense - just look at the numbers.


Like I said earlier, it is going to be difficult to dismiss KAG's submision that culture is an index to a belief system. Of course, other factors exist; but the idea that it is "natural" to have a God belief occludes the reality that not everyone believes in God - and they would have to be preached to (a learning process) in some way or another before they come to that belief.

@KAG, Stimulus and the rest:

Perhaps I misssed something. I dont even know who is a theist and who is not anymore. We assume that everyone learns of God belief through nurture because a society raises the question. Be that as it may (altough I disagree), I wonder why its such a natural inclination that we have. Birds have no idea how to fly when born and probably don't even know that they must migrate south during the winter nor do they even realize - perhaps - that they take the shortest route over water when flying south from certain parts of the world. They dont go to school to learn this but it comes instictively as they grow older.

But, do the bird parent - whatever they are called - assist the bird in learning the tools of the trade, like the flying part and the catching worms and heading south for the winter, etc? of course (although to what extent, I plead ignorance). Yet, we say that this is all instinctive to the bird - nature, not nurture.

Just because one is taught how to do something or the issue is raised by society does not man that that particular issue is not innate to the person. In the same manner that the birds and other animals have a natural instictive drive to somehting, humans have shown a natural and instictive drive - even without eveing called upon to do so - to ask those inexcapable questions. Again, what human has excaped it. what human, even the agnostic, does not look up to the sky - almost instictively - searching for something higher than it. It is both instinctive - I submit, as well as rational

Rational because of the oldest argument in the book - which atheist seem to discount thse days - that a thing is produced from something else (and please do not retort with the usual "who made God argument). This argument is classic and is itself inescapable - which is presicely why generation after generation, we cannot shake off the god beleif syndrome that we have. Many scientist- atheists mind you - have come to the conclusion that we are hard wired to believe in God - although they ultimately still do not believe. Thus, as I have argued and suggested, God belief is "nature" not "nurture." The question then becomes, is it true - this is where the logical exercise comes into play.

Even the hight priest on anti-theism - Richard Dawkins - likens god belief to a disease of sorts that inflicts man. interesting that he chooses to explain it as a disease or virus He cannot explain why the heck it keeps coming back depsite efforts to eradicte it and despite the advances in science. why - because it cannot be killed. he recognizes that yet he foolishly pursues tirelessly to kill it. He will fail and die failing.

Here is a link to the Times Magazine article on the atheist scientist discussion about being hardwired for God belief: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/04/magazine/04evolution.t.html?pagewanted=1&ei=5088&en=a43cfb7b24423cc6&ex=1330664400&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

Yes, yes, yes, I have been gone for a while. Most of you may not remember me cause came in a flash and then disappeared. Went to Hajj in fact.

But, old rivalries aside, I had intended on my return to post a thread on how to handle atheist attacks on religion. Now this might get murcky a bit if its a joint effort so I would like to stick to three issues that I believe are the common thread in all religious discussion : God, Prophets and "A Book."

So, how do xtians address atheist? I will elaborate further as we go but I believe the answer for all xtians is based on the same reason why the person became an atheism (there is also more of course). There is a driving force, as strong as the internal feeling for love and hate, that tells all humans to question where they came from and how they got here. No non-mentally challenged human being, not one, has ever escaped this question. The question or drive is as strong and natural as the natural drives that birds have to migrate and do so, without being taught how to do so. Its purely natural and being an atheist is actually unnatural. When atheists are faced with the question of who created me and how did I get here, they choose the less natural disposition and conclude, against their primordial pull, that God does not exist.

Even if one were to say that God belief was needed as a response to pre-homosapien man's lack of knowledge about the world, then why has God belief remained after all these centuries. Since, as many atheists, and now anti-theists suggest, there is no need for God, it is odd that humans can some how not shake off this annoying God belief. I suggest that God-belief is inescapable. Those that choose to ignore it just choose to be psychopaths that go against their natural inclination.

Lakpenne

@david:

U are a piece of work: U quote the U.N.? LOL. U really are delusional and have no idea what the world is about. The U.N.? Give me a freaking break. U mean the non-power having waste of time entity known as the U.N.?

This is one of my favorite parts about the whole US-Israel-Muslim debate. U think US really gives two shits about Israel in the end. Once, if, Israel ever stops serving its purpose, US will abandon it in a hurry. Israel is the largest recipient of US foreign aid and Egypt, the birht place of Osama's ideology, is second. Explain that one.

Better, Saudi Araboa got US by the ball. Minute they and China decide to pull their money or start dealing in Euros the US currently declining dollar and economy is tanked. Why have trillions of Saudi money here if they hate Israel so much and yet US is such great friends of Israel. Further with Syria, who gives a F. U.S. outwardly plays like they are against Syria yet sends people to get tortured there

U really are dumb and believe everything U hear on T.V.

With respect to 911, U R a tripple dumb ass. The largest group of 911 victims families believe its an inside Job. Former Italian president Cossiga just declared yesterday his belief that 911 is an inside job, the father of Reagonomics (Dr. Paul Craig Roberts) says the sam, David Ray Griffin (a theologian and philosopher) says the same, former CIA analyst Ray McGovern says the same.

Most of the people behind the push to expose 911 are White Americans (Muslims, the non-Black ones a least) are too scared). Millions of them. Most good God fearing xtians who sound nothing like your fact denying self.

Please go back to sleep and talk to me when you take a reality pill. I see why you say dumb shit like Jews were not under Muslim Spain yet its a foregone conclusion. U just deny everything 0 maybe even the hollocaust - and then call people hypocrites. LOL

U say I am an idol worshipped yet give no proof but I repeatedly show you how your own book says U are an idol worshipper and how logic says the same. Again, go back to sleep.

Serious question: If one accepts Jesus and then they are considered "saved" is there anything they can do - other than rejecting Jesus - which would make then "not-saved." In other words, once you accepts, what actions, if any, will cause you to fall out of being saved, other than just out right rejection. I'm eager to know.

@david:

Care to tell me why you worship three Gods.
Care to tell me why you have no proof of anything you have said
Care to tell me why i care what other Muslim countries do
Care to tell me why the dominists wish for the death of jews in the future and you dont see nothing wrong with that
Care to tell me why am even talking about Jews right now as if I care
Care to tell me why its a crime to visit Cuba
Care to tell me why the US govt killed its own citizens in order to push forward an evil agenda
Care to tell me why we are in Iraq based on lies and we are commitin genocide in Iraq and people don't care
Care to tell me why the above matters to the question of monotheism?
Care to tell me why Allah sent Jesus if the Jews had been following the previious prophets
Care to tell me why Jesus being destined to come is any different than the others destined to come because people needed to be thought how to be saved cause they deviated
Care to tell me why U are so focused on the present last fifty years of progandised Jewish-Muslim relations but forget what Ur religion did in the past.
Care to tell me why the difference between Catholics and Xtians, basically both trinitarians, matter.
Care to tell me where the Quran calls Jews apes and pigs?
Care to tell me why God killed the people of Sodom and Ghemora?
Care to tell me why the formation of Israel matters for US foreign policy to support Israel despite unconditionally despite many US officials believing to the contrary yet when other countries have their foreign policy based negatively on the formation of Israel they are seen as evil
Care to tell me why official war against Israel is any different than other countries policy toward others.
Care to tell me why the F I even care
Care to tell me why 911 was not an inside job
Care to tell me why u will deny the above based on some stupid "conspirscy argument"
Care to tell me why U believe Muslims regurgitate yet xtians are so individually informed about their religion as if they do not themselves regurgitate what their pastor tells them?
Care to tell me who supports PLO?
Care to tell me what UR little twit mind knows about US foreign policy?
Care to tell me why U should not return to Nigeria
Care to tell me why you fail to understand the consequence of dispensationalism
Care to tell why Islam means peace but you say we are not peacefull (LOL)
Care to tell me why the reply U will give to the above is the same interpretation I will give to dispensationalist believe
Care to tell me the definition of hypocrite?


CARE TO TELL ME WHY U STILL REMAIN A POLYTHEISTS PAGAN WORSHIPPER?

david:

"The largest support for Isreal? You guessed it - the USA which just happens to be the largest christian nation on earth. And those swearing to destroy Isreal - the muslims of course. "

Funny, a Jewish commentator recently said that the "U.S. loves Israel to death - literally" meaning he dispensationalist are supporting Israel while at the same time wishing to their death once Jesus returns. Stop lying macaca.

Read Chris Hedges book on the dominionist xtians here in the U.S. - the most influential xtians here and the biggest Israel supporters. Hedges is a reformed xtian and someone I respect highly - although I disagree with him in his waterdown view even of the trinity. he is A Harvard divinity school graduate. Hsi father, I believe, is a priest. Read something on dispensationalism for God's sake b4 sayin stupid stuff. Be a true xtain.

THE END.

@david:

oh David, david. I actually never read her thread until now. I only check threads if I get an email saying someone replied and even then I don't always get them. anyway, that's no excuse:

So, Nwando basically said: "But as these Scriptures reveal the Holy Spirit is a distinct person from the Father & Jesus, and is identified as being God."

LOL. Basically the argument is "its not three Gods because we believe in only one." This despite the fact that there are three distinct person according to her own explanation. yet the three distinct persons, which we can only assume have God-like qualities are one God. Sorry, that sounds a lot like polyheism akin to the Hindu belief in one supreme being yet they believe he comes in the form of monkeys etc. Yet, you call them polytheistic pagans. explain that.

My objection to the trinity has little to do with the now tired "the math makes no sense argument." My aversion to it is more distinct and hit to the hear of theological logical belief.

As I have explain over an dover. The trinity makes not sense because (1) God is the uncreated mover and since Jesus is created he cannot be divine.
According to the Bible, Jesus cried out to God yet he is himself supposed to be God. Jesus was tempted by the devil - or at least attempted tempt, and its impossible to the Supreme most high to be tempte by anything.

I guess its what one priest said to anotther priest who had a problem with the trinity not makin sense. the priest says: "we all have the same problem but you have to have faith and just believe."

I believe in faith but at the primordial fundamental underpinnings of a belief, there must be some logic sense to it. xtian monotheism is simple not. Islamic monotheism is simple and captures everything monotheism is meant to be: There is one God, indivisible, uncreated, without any partnership and without need for anything. he is uncreated and transcendant over his creation, everything else within out realm is created and there is a clear separation in the existence of the transcendant and the non-transcendant. The transcendant eternal does not exist in the world of the non-transcendant ephemeral which will one day cease. Philisophically, logically, theological, the xtian belief is more polytheistic than monotheistic. THE END.

I have read the rest of our comments and decided they are without merit with respect to the issue of monotheism. But with respect to the Bridge, everyone Muslim shall cross it. The ones enveloped by God's mercy will cross it safely (some fast, some slow). The ones who are not, will fall to hell and remain there until such a time as God gives them mercy to exit.

As for the xtians, there is no Bridge, its a direct ticket to hell. What's the sense of judging them when there is nothing to judge by virtue of the fact that they do not have the key to enter paradise - monotheism.

Finally, as per the Jews, here';s the difference between Muslims and xtians. Our book is very open and direct about Urs and their beliefs. We do not hide it, yet they lived under us for four hundred years and elsewhere besides Spain.

As for the xtians,whenever u ruled religiously over them, u killed and persecuted them. Inquistion, Crusades, numerous expulsions all over Europe, porgrams, etc. U try to deny it and blame all the Jewish ills on Muslims when U are the real killers of Jews in history. Now, the dispensationalists dominionists will carry on the torch - I shall explain that in due time. Don't act like you don't know what dominionists preach. U are ashamed of them, yet their share UR beliefs. We Muslims are opened UR deceptive enemies.

EPILOGUE

@nwando and the rest

"Use them and feed those beggars on your streets,you'll be rewarded for that."

Great suggestion. Unfortunatel, that's what we do with it.

Wow, the dogs are out, you guys just keep coming. Only thing you have going for you is strength in numbers.

I was looking around for something and was not able to remember what it was for the longeest, then I remebered: I was searching for an answeer to how a god can be tempted by the devil (get ye back? LOL) and how a god can be praying to another god. Says to me there is more than one god or one of them is a fraud. Hmmm., sounds like polytheism to me.

Prophet Muhammad (saw) was an illerate? Wow, there's news to me. I never knew that. Makes the Quran even more fantastic. he learned the story from his xtian friend? which one, the one he met as a young boy or the ones he met in Medina or the ones he never met. Funny thing though, he never mentioned that the tree Adam and Eve ate from was the apple tree. How could he miss that yet, that's all most xtians remember about the A & E story. man, he must have had one really bad memory.

Wait, the holy ghost is knocking. No, it s Jesus.

My next thread, after the one about the superiority of the Quran (u guys will love that as an opportunity to really get your teeth sharpen since you missed ot on monotheism) I will about how xtians have historically killed Jews and continue to seek to kill them till today (hmmm, interesting)

Peace polytheist.

@david: again, what have you added to the debate. why ask for explanation of a verse and then say "I don't believe it."

Hey remeber your "ever heard of talking in the 3rd person" statement. Well, ever heard of a conditional statement. Like: Everyone will drown in the Titanic except for those who were saved on the life boat. LOL. See how utterly easy that is.

Anyway, why waste my time.

@ nwando, you have done a better job attacking Muslims monotheism but ot nearly as good defending your polytheism. Like I asked, why are U any different than the Hindu

As for the 3 daughters nonesense, where did U get that from. Proof please, proof. That's a crock of shit. (I know exactly where u are going with the Allah came from a 3 daughter god nonesense but I want the source so that I can expose U).

I'll let U make Urself look like an idiot for change.


"or because they see the power of the cross?" U mean the crosss that originated from Pagan Kemitic beliefs? That cross. LOL. UR religion is marred in pagan belief, from Christmas all the way to Easter and back to the basic beleif in the trinity. All pagan nonesense.

Tell me why did Abraham sacrifice, or try to, sacrifice his son and God replaced it with a ram? was Abe a pagan? LOL

david:

U site Surat Maryam (at least we honor her)? It says: "There is not one of you but will pass over it (Hell);"

And how does this change the fact that you are still a polytheist. Of all the times I have refered to Jesus supposedly calling on God and then being tempted by the devil despite allegedly being God himself, you keep picking at other things and never addressing my question. This is precisely my point - Tawhid, the issue xtians avoid.

As for Maryam, so? Did you read the verse right after that, which said "except those who have Taqwa (fear of Allah is worshipping Him alone). Xtians have no Taqwa. You will not be saved. So thanks, that verse works exactly against your polytheistic kind.

@david:
:Yup, just as your several other baseless statements that cannot withstand the scrutiny of truth. "

Nice try. scrutinize Deeez. trinity is false, scrutinize that

@nossycheek:
U sadi: What a fruitless effort. Well keep on copying from your websites as usual while your brothers clap for you."

David, focused, nwando, pilgrim and the bunch have all proven my point. Most of this thread was spent thwarting your baseless attacks on Islam rather than on the issue of Tawhid. Why? Cause xtians simply cannot hang, knowing that they worship a false God. Who cares about all that other stuff when it still stands that you are all idol worshippers. I can attack you idol worship by using the Quran, your won Bible and logic.

All U guys can do is stand there are throw sand in our faces on topics that have nothing to do with monotheism.

Like I said, what is different between the xtian and the Hindu who worships a cow or monkey god because he believes god came in the form of the monkey or possesed the monkey. U call the hindu an idol worshipping polytheist yet you do the same thing.

Finally, and I repeat it again and will patiently wait for a response. Jesus was crying out to whom that he believed had forsaken him - God? and U say he himsel if God. And then this god was tempted by the devil? Did he not see that one coming.

Idol worship + idol worship = false belief. Islam stands for tawhid and true monotheism, that u have failed to counter in any manner, sing your Bible, the Quran or logic.

Peace polytheists.

Davidylan:

"
i guess the truth is bitter and makes a lot of people uncomfortable. " Hmm, is Wafa still a Muslim? I don't know. If she, I have nothing else to say.

If she's not, she sure as hell aint no xtain? I wonder why. If she believes Islam is bad, she definitely believe xtianity is worse. yes, the truth is uncomfortable.

Again, this does not change the fact that your so called god called out to God and was tempted by the devil. Hmmmm, does not sound at all like God to me.

Next.

@nwando:

"Watch this small clip,just 5 mins of a Muslim woman who describes Islam as the world sees it.
I don't need to tell you how many of your 5 pillared brethren that have been looking for a sixth pillar on her neck.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WLoasfOLpQ"

LOL.  I was hopping for somehting else but Wafa Sultan?  Please

Still doesn't change the fact that the one you worship is not God.  LOL

Next.

@nwando:

"Mo was possesed of the devil,his own family knew it."

Oh yes, yes. Then he led a small band of bandit to conquer Mecca, led a religious group, described things in the future that no one else could have known and his followers took over the entire Penninsula.

Yes, he was crazy alright. That's all you guys ever say which is exactly my point when I posted this topic on Tawhid

Once again, with respect to monotheism, your gdo cried out to God and then was possessed or tempted by satan. Please respond to that because that's the topic at hand and like I said, monotheism or tawhid is the issue xtians always avoid cause they are polytheists.

Thanks. Next

@nwando:

thanks, you have contributed nothing here.

Again, you worship a man. your so called god called out to God and then was tempted by the devil. This is clearly not God.

Thank you, you can go back to sleep now.

@Davidylan:  Again, you attack the Quran as if it makes the issue of your false beliefs go away.

U said:  "nonsense. Please show us JUST ONE verse in the quran where the "prophets" claimed to be muslim."  

then u said: "Stop dribbling yourself and changing the goalposts, the same book you claim is corrupted cannot all of a sudden now have authentic verses in them simply because the quran finds it convenient to use as a crutch."

Knowing fully way that if I gave U the verse U would not accept it, why ask.  If I give U a verse saying such would u become a Muslims?  No.  If yes, let me know and I'll give one. LOL

U said: "No they were and can never be muslims. For the God being refered to in Luke is NOT the same one muslims spend their time crying to."

Really?  Wow.  Then as olabowale asked, which one of the Prophets did not submit to the worship of God alone?  Since all of them did, then they are all Muslims.  A Muslim is one who does exactly what you quoted in that verse from Luke.  seee how that logic works so well.

Again, U R arguments make no sense.  I can perfectly say something is corrupt and accept things from it.  The Constitution is corrupt with respect to certain things, like the part about 3/5th of a man that is a slave.  Yet, there are things in it that are true that I accept, such as free speech.  So, don't try some dumbass argument to save the Bible from citicism.  I have always maintained, as Allah does, that it has been corrupted and what the Prophet tells us to do is to neither confirm nor deny anything in it except where it agrees with the Quran or disagrees.  This is what you call good judgment.

Finally, the ffact still remains:  U R so called Jesus/god begged and cried out to God and was tempted by Satan.  These two things are unbecoming of anything that should be worshipped as God.  All that other stuff about virgin birth, etc is just an inconsequential red herring.  False belief + false belief = false belief.


Quote from: Lakpenne on Today at 05:06:52 PM
It is a beautiful verse and I shall crbeing authentic credit it as being authentic becuase its universal, its supported by the Torah, the Injeel (Bible if u want to call it that), the Quran and is the message of all the Prophets.


You people are neither here nor there. You cry "authentic" when it suits you and bellow about the bible being corrupted just when it places the quran in its rightful place as no more than the hate manual of a maniac.
Stop dribbling yourself and changing the goalposts, the same book you claim is corrupted cannot all of a sudden now have authentic verses in them simply because the quran finds it convenient to use as a crutch.

That verse does not support the quran - 1. the quran already acknowledges the bible is corrupt
2. the God in Luke is NOT your god


Quote from: Lakpenne on Today at 05:06:52 PM
Al the Prophets were Muslim because a Muslim is one who submits to the worship of Godd and no one else. Congratulations David, u have seen the light. I am soooooooooooo happy for you Kudos.


nonsense. Please show us JUST ONE verse in the quran where the "prophets" claimed to be muslim.
Please show us the "revelations" that allah gave these "prophets" IN THE QURAN.


Quote from: Lakpenne on Today at 05:06:52 PM
Unfortunately, the xtians took that an said "thou shall worship the Lord they God, and Jesus and the Holy Ghost, which are all three but one." Nonesense. That verse from Luke is clear, he is the onle ONE.


Read from the book of acts upward, NONE of the apostles ever prayed in the name of the Lord, Son and Holy Ghost. They simply used ONE NAME - Jesus Christ = God.

QED

@davidylan:
"Again my question that every hypocrite here prefers to ignore . . . why is the muslim so obsessed with proving the christian God wrong? Is any christian putting up threads to question the islamic god? We frankly don't care if you choose to worship stones, please accord us that right too! nuff said. "

Well, u attack Muhammad (saW) and the Quran.  When U stop that we will stop attacking your belief.  We do not attack Jesus, we jsut attack what you say about Jesus, which is contraicted by your own book, not to mention the Quran and Torah - the Luke verse you cited in another thread.

Stop crying and asking to be spared an attack on your false belief.  We worship stones.  LOL.  I know U R but what am I?  LOL.  U worship a man dude, a man who  could not save himself.  We say that man is not God. Rather than address the substance and core of your belief, you dance around, attacking our Quran.

In reality, I do not care if U believe Jesus is God but for so long as U attack our book and call us names, I will hit U where it matters and where it  hurts, and that's showing that you beliefs are false and polytheistic.  WIthout belief, you have nothing.,

Peace

@davidylan:

U said:

"Luke 4:8 Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

The jews knew this more than 2000 years ago . . . does that make them muslims too? "

Excellent, Excellenet, Excellent. Bravo, Bravo, Bravo. This is by far the best and most honest and most thought out point you have made to date.

Those who followed the wbove sited verse were indeed Muslims. Jews (or as Allah cause them properly "children of Israel) are merely a people from a line. With respect to their religion, they were commanded: "Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve."

It is a beautiful verse and I shall crbeing authentic credit it as being authentic becuase its universal, its supported by the Torah, the Injeel (Bible if u wanna call it that), the Quran and is the message of all the Prophets. Al the Prophets were Muslim because a Muslim is one who submits to the worship of Godd and no one else. Congratulations David, u have seen the light. I am soooooooooooo happy for you Kudos.

Unfortunately, the xtians took that an said "thou shall worship the Lord they God, and Jesus and the Holy Ghost, which are all three but one." Nonesense. That verse from Luke is clear, he is the onle ONE.

Peace dude. Again, congrats. I'm really really proud of you.

@davidylan:

I knew this beforee but I was come to the conclusion that you are indeed a dishonest human being, despite your attacks on Muslims s being dishonest:

U said: "Sorry, Jews were not a part of the Spanish conquest by muslims!" This is the most absurd thing U have said to date and shows your complete dishonesty and ignorance. This is not even a historical dispute. not that wiki is the end all and be all but I assume the posting on wiki that says:

"Golden age of Jewish culture in Spain, also known as the Golden Age of Arab (or Moorish) Rule in Iberia, refers to a period of history during the Muslim rule of the Iberian Peninsula (the Roman and Visigothic Hispania) in which Jews were generally accepted in society and Jewish religious, cultural, and economic life blossomed."

There is no debate that it was Golden for Jews. the only debate is whether it is the interfaith Utopia some, Jews included, make it out to be. But there is little dispute that their life under the Muslim rule was better than under the European. I don't like to resort to cursing but on this issue, and the one below, you are a lying dishonest ______.

U said: "You claimed that Jesus was born via immaculate conception JUST like mohammed was born. Was mohammed born by immaculate conception too? That is a straight forward question, stop playing musical chairs here."

uum, wrong guy dude. I never said the Prophet was conceived JUST like Jesus, that would be dishonest - something u know too well. What I did say, which u refuse to address is that Adam's birth is more miraculous and more deserving of being called God if the test is going to be how you came into the world.

Rather than answer directly, you claim I am in darkness by not accepting the the trinity nonesense. I gave you four points on logic and even from the Bible as to why the trinity is false and you say nothing except what you claim to have found in the Bible. Please

I won't bother entertaining the rest of your idiocy for fear of more dishonest garbbling

As for the Bin Laden tape, you mean the one that was released six years after the incident, which they claim Bin Laden left in Kabul while fleeing, which shows a fat man supposedly Bin Laden eating with his left hand unlike proper Muslim manner, with what appears to be a gold ring and contradicts what Bin Laden himself said right after 911. U mean that fake and doctored tape. Oh yes. That tape would never make it into evdence at trial cause its a fraud and the Bible would also never make it into evidence at trial becuase its inauthentic and a fraud perpetrated by Paul and others.

Tell me why Bin Laden was indicted and found guilty of the Tanzanian bombings yet, the world world is cock sure he did 911 and we even have a supposed confession yet, he has not been indicted in abstentia and convicted as he was for the Tanzania bombings.

Listed dude, don't start talking abot stuff you have no clue about. U have much to learn.

God is uncreated, Jesus is created - end of story.

@davidylan

"The biblical account of Adam's creation is clear - Let US make MAN in our own image" Ummm, my point exactly. Adam was made from no mother or father, Jesus from Mother. Using your logic, Adam is a greater miracle. Jesus should have just come along spontaneously, now, that's pretty darn incredible.


"Was mohammed born by immaculate conception too? Had he no father? Is this not an example of your frequent recourse to lies and deceit? " Again, so what. Why is immaculate conception so much more incredible than say Adam's birth. Please respond.

With respect to Spain, I ask you again to see when the Jews consider it to be their Golden Age. sure they are not monolithic, but just ask them. google it. wiki it. Just ask

"Surely you would expect the quran to occupy that position if indeed mohammed was the "greatest man who ever lived".

LOL - Well, the Quran is the most defended religious book and the best preserved. NEXT Question. Its not the Bible.

"The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said: 'The Day of Judgement will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Muslims, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him, '
Resisting and quelling the enemy become the individual duty of every Muslim, male or female. A woman can go out to fight the enemy without her husband's permission, and so does the slave: without his master's permission., "

And your point being? ITs a prophecy of things to come. Guess who willbe the leader of the Muslims during this time, That's right, you guessed it, Jesus. The same Jesus that your dominionist compatriots in America say will return to kill the Jews. LOL. You kill me dude. U kill me.

"YET we havent seen police officers arresting everyone for criticizing the president. Learn to speak the truth. Its not so hard."

- its not mass scale, sure. Bush is hardly criticized in the type of crticiusm that matters. We cn begin with real criticism by impeaching him for lying about Iraq or just simply coming out and saying "Bush you are a liar" That's criticism, not this bullshit that pundits through out as useless talk.

BTW, I say here to U and to Focused that anyone who believes Muslims did 911 is an unbriddled and pathological idiot. U are a medical student right? A scientist or sorts? To believe Muslims did that is to believe in idiocy. I appreciate ur response but be warned, u might come out looking like an idiot.

Here's a bet, If I can show U Muslims more than likely did not do 911, u will stop posting on nairaland. Challenge?

@Focused:  Wow you said a lot and I would have never known U said it until I scrolled up.  So let me reply to your ignorance by beginning with where you ended in one of your post.  most of your post centered on calling Muslims Jew haters and intolerant.  I was hoping to avoid this debate but U asked and I must crush it.  

U said: "at is why any country that adopts Islam as a state religion will never experience peace."  LOL.  One and only one response will completely annihilae all U have said about Muslims hating Jews and he failure of a Muslim state.  

Ask any Jew, any Jew and I repeat, any Jew in the world, what is considered the Golden Age of the Jews since the time of Moses.  The answer you will hear from every single Jew, academic or otherwise is that the Golden Age was during the four hundred years jews spent under the leadership of the Muslims in Spain.  This is when the Jews reached the greatest height in Jewish spirituality, mysticism, philosophy (Maimonides), etc.  I don't even have to say a word further.  

Now, the ironic or interesting thing about nthe Muslim initial conquest of Spain was that the Jews helped the Muslims defeat the xtian/Catholic (don't recall which) Visigoths.  now the Jews knew how the Muslims felt about their beliefs and yet they helped the Muslims defeat the Visigoths who had been oppressing them for years.  Then after the Muslims were eventually defeated in or about 1490, the Christians engaged in the grand inquisition, killing Jews and Muslims alike.  Using the navigation tooks developed bybthe Muslims, the Xtians then went on the conquer the west, africa, asia, enslaving people (and the Arabs are not free from some this, nor Muslims, nor the Africans themselves  for that matter)

So, I don't even have to give other examples as you have been clearly rebuffed.

Muslims do not hate Jews or anyone for that matter.  All we hate is what people say about God that is not true, and we have the right to hate that.  


As for the crescent star, this is not an Islamic symbol as it was never sanctioned by the Prophet.  Sure Muslims use it all over the world but that does not make it Islamic.  To be fair, the cross sure as hell aint no xtian symbol, its borrowed from  a Kemitc Egyptian symbol.  I am sure there are xtians that reject the cross as a xtian symbol.  I surely do not accept the crescent moon and star as the symbol of Islam.



Who is mohammed that they should not criticise him ?   Well, he is the greatest man to have ever lived that's who.  You live in the U.S. right.  Go an criticize President Bush and see if you do not get tazed.  Yet, you allow people to loosely criticize Jesus and don't lift a finger.  I don';t agree with the violent response of Muslims of today - as you usually find the most violent ones are the ones who are the least religious.  But, they have the right to, and should be allowed to protest peacefully.


"Have you forgotten that the Jews and Arabs are related?. They are all children of father Abraham, so why do most muslims have a great hatred for the jews ? Why are muslims against their existence in the middle east ?"

This is a crock of bull.  If you know anything, you know that the Arabs/Muslims and Jews lived side by side and drank coffeee together before the crestion of Israel.  What changed that?  U answer the Q.

"99.9% of muslims don't know the bible, and 99% don't even know the Quran. All they know is violence, senseless violence."  (where is your proof.  Like xtians know the Bible.  LOL.)


"First of all, Jesus was conceived through what we called immaculate conception, by the holy spirit, he was born of the virgin mary. he was not born as a result of sexual intercourse, just the way mohammed was born. Jesus is God the son. If you want me to explain more, I will. " (So?  Adam was created by the hand of God and that is even greater yet we do not worship him. )


"Your Quran is full of contradictions, that is why when mohammed die, there was no succession."   (Examples please, just two)

Aslan:

U said a lot of things that make no sense from a Muslim perspective in the same way that some things I might say make no sense from a xtian perspective. So, you have added nothing here but I shall respond briefly:

d real question is does allah love u? other then his name and the fact that he is one god what do d muslims really know about allah? how come this "final revelation" is so much deficient in material on God then the bible? (what is it that you think we do not know about Allah that you know. We know one thing for sure and its that He does not sleep nor slumber and that He is life, etc. Please enlightened me as to what you think you know that I should know. U say the Quran is deficient but in what way, please explain. )



is any muslim 100 per cent sure of heaven like xtians who believe in christ? eternity is not a joke and this shouldnt b an ego thing on whose religion is better, ask yourself some basic questions on this god u follow. we christians believe 11 men who say they saw the risen christ and had 500 other witnesses u muslims bank your eternity on one man who received revelations and heard voices that NO ONE else could back up. u bank your eternity on one mans word. we have a crowd of witneses to our believes please just ask God to honestly reveal himself to u and stop these insults because eternity is no joke.

But these witnesses only exist in the Bible and nowhere else. While I believe in Jesus the Prophet, its because the Quran says so not because the Bible does. Its simply your opinion that the Prophet spoke to himself. Could anyone back up what you claim jesus said about being God.

Rather, we have hadith to confirm the witnesses to Prophet's message. As for your salvation, like I asked David, how is the bushman who never accpeted Jesus saved. He's basically screwed. In other words, Xtianity is ot universal. It does not encompass univerdal principles. Islam at its basic fundamental core = submission to the will of God and not associating partners to him. Anyone at any time, any century, any age, any level of wealth, any corner of the world, is capable of doing this.

Eternity is guaranteed to the one who dies without associating partners to God. Xtians give a partner to God called Jesus and Jesus is free from such saying such things.

Davidylan:

Again, you are working from a framework that I credit the Bible as an authentic source.  I don't doubt that the Bible contains truths - no question.  I just cannot say that its authentic and cannot differentiate what is true and what is false except either from logical deduction or because it contradicts the only book I consider to be authentic - the Quran.

If you believe that the Jews never angered God nor did he curse them and that they will inherit heaven therefrom, there is nothing I can really say about that.  I simply do not believe that.  If I believe that, then it serves me well to convert to Judaism immediately (most of the Jews today are actually converts)

Question for you:  do you believe that even if the Jews do not take Jesus as their lord and savior they will go to heaven?  If so, then I think you should become a Jew.  If not, then they must be cursed on some level with respect to their failure to believe in Jesus.   Please enlighten me as to your belief on this subject.

As for Jesus being ordained to come to earth, this is the same for everyone else.  Adam, Noah, Moses, etc were all ordained to come.  I hold the opinion that these Prophets, including Prophet Muhammad (saw) were sent to put the people back on the path of guidance from which they deviated.  the utmost of that guidance in my opinon is monotheism.  

The ten commandments came after Abraham and lots of other Prophets so it did not apply to them.  However, the first few commandments remind us of the original message of all the Prophets.  Like I tried to argue earlier, monotheism is key because if you are not grounded in monotheism, then you are no better than the hindu who worships a cow or a monkey god, etc.  Hindus believe in a supreme god and they worship likewise but we consider them polytheistic.  Why?  Because they give partnership in dominion and worship to God and say things about Him that are not true.

U said: "it is impossible for you to be saved and continue in your old ways."  This confuses me.  I thought you are saved simply by accepting.  There are many people who have accpeted and continue on their old ways, no?

U said: " Read the book of Daniel, there is nothing there about worshipping one God. Read hosea, Ezekiel, Jeremiah . . . monotheism was not part of their writings."  
Well, this assumes that's an authentic writing.  Also, even if it was authentic, that does not believe they never did it and that does not mean its not important.  Moreover, forget them.  Your own Jesus spoke about monotheism by warning people against the over praise of him and that  they should praise God.  Again, I only use the Bible here to refute what you have said concerning the non-importance of monotheism.  Better yet, the ten commandments is monumental as a text of God's laws and it begins with the first three or four speaking  exaclty about monotheism.  See how important it is.

I try to stay away from using the Bible or even the Quran but rather use an objective standard of logic.  I again submit to you as a test that if monotheism is not the essence of belief and salvation , then what is it that separate the Christian from the Hindu and the Bhuddhist.  I say that the difference is that you differ from them from the definition of monotheism.  I ask you, are Hindu's monotheistic and why?

U said: "How many prophecies did "prophet" mohammad give and how many came to pass? that is the true test of a prophet."  

"the Romans have been defeated in a short time, "  (The Romans had just defeated the Persians and the Prophet was immediately telling people through the Quran that the powerful romans would be defeated.  Shrotly thereafter, they were defeated)

"Perish the two hands of Abu Lahab and Perish He" (Abu Lahab heard this being recited while Abu Lahab was alive.  Theis verse basically says that Abu Lahab will die a disbeliever.  Abu Lahab could have just become a Muslim to prove him worng and then apostate.  It never happened and Abu Lahab perished a non--Muslim)

He said that the Muslims will be in large numbers yet over come by the non-Muslims.  (Look a them now compared to the rule they had before)

One of the signs of the day of judgment is that there will be dancing women in every home (you have one in you home)

He said that if a fly falls in your drink, dip it in the drink fully and drink from it if you wish of throw it away if you wish (after removing the fly of course) - scientist have foudnd now that one wing has the disease and the other antidote

Before you lick your lips and attack the above, kindly forward me some of Jesus' claimed prophecies.  I shall not atack them but interested in knowing them.

BTW, let it be clear that when I say things about Jesus it is not to disparage him but rather to clear his name from the crimes of which you accuse him - that he claimed to  be God.

My point has been and always will be that it is unbelievable that would ever say he was God because its simply not true as the Quran says he was not.  From a logical perspective or even a religous history perspective, there is nothing so unusually special about Jesus to set him apart from others before him such that we must say he was God.

With respect ot healing, there is hadith in which the companions cured someone by reciting surat al-faatihah and the Prophet used the same to heal people.  


Healing is not, and I don't believe you have shown, a clear indication that someone is God.  It can easily be said that the person healed by the help or permission of God.  It can be easily explained because we see similar things with other Prophets.

I am still waiting for something independent of the Bible or Quran or Torah from which one should be convinced clearly that Jesus was God or that makes religiously historical sense in the context of the Bible itself.

I offered you at least four: (1) God is uncreated and Jesus is created so therefore he cannot be God.  (2) All Prophets before Jesus said, there is one God and not to worship anyone besided God and Jesus comes and says "no, go is three.", (3) In the same Bible, this Jesus that's supposed to be God cries out to God why have you forsaken me and also prays to Him , (4) there is nothing so fantastic about things Jesus that one has no option  but to say, "no, this guy MUST be God."

These four areas of analysis clear and strongly contradict and logical attempts or Biblical attempts to assert that Jesus is God.  So, at a minimum, it would be very dubious for someone to jump to such a conclusion with nothing more concrete.   For everything that one can say Jesus did such and such and hat prove's he's God.  I can simply reply, "God helped him do such and such and he is not God."  My response holds true for every Prophet, inlcuding Mohammed - so he (saw) is not saved from the same analysis.