₦airaland Forum

Seun:
The best evidence that Christianity is not true is the account of the resurrection of Jesus in the gospels. The accounts in Mathew, Mark, Luke and John are contradictory on basic facts. There is no way to construct a coherent account of the resurrection of Jesus that does't contradict one or more of the biblical accounts. See the contradictions below:

Who went to the tomb?
John: Mary Magdalene alone.
Matthew: Mary Magdalene and "the other Mary."
Mark: Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome.
Luke: Mary Magdalene, Joanna, Mary the mother of James, and "other women."

Who was at the tomb when they arrived?
Matthew: One angel sitting on the stone outside.
Mark: One young man sitting inside on the right.
Luke: Two men in dazzling clothes standing inside.
John: Two angels sitting inside (but seen later, after Peter and John visit).

What did the women do afterward?
Mark: They fled and said nothing to anyone because they were afraid.
Matthew & Luke: They ran with joy to tell the disciples.

Where did Jesus first appear to the disciples?
Matthew & Mark: The disciples are told to go to Galilee, where they will see him.
Luke & John: Jesus appears to them immediately in Jerusalem.

If the supposed eye-witnesses of the most important event in Christianity couldn't agree on basic facts, their religion can't be true. Right?

Slow down. You can't draw any reasonable conclusions here because your logic - even though it's effective against inerrancy - doesn't actually reach as far as you're swinging it. Let's start with what you've gotten right: you've destroyed the fundamentalist claim that every word is divinely dictated. That's a solid rebuttal. But "the witnesses disagreed on peripheral details" doesn't automatically mean "therefore nothing happened." You're making a huge stretch.

Two witnesses to an actual events can contradict each other regularly on the specifics of what happened while agreeing on something central occurring. What you've actually proven is that institutional Christianity built on a fortress of inerrancy has a catastrophically weak foundation.

And funny enough, this is what Gnostics have been shouting about since the second century. We just drew very different conclusions about the things that remained.

Seun:
Believers,

I'm hungry for a debate. Let's discuss whether or not Christianity is the true religion, which is what it claims to be. What's your best evidence?

Let's have some fun!

"Christianity claims to be the true religion"

...and so does Islam, so does Judaism, so does Hinduism, and countless other religions that exist on this entire planet. So simply claiming to be the true religion is not enough. Evidence is still required.

However, do I think there's profound, transformative truth to be found within Christian tradition? Absolutely. The problem is that it has been buried under centuries and centuries of imperial theology designed to keep peasants ignorant and obedient.

The Christ of Constantine bears almost zero resemblance to the illuminating Logos the Gnostics actually encountered. Maybe we can start there before making any claims of exclusivity.

Dtruthspeaker:
Why are you dodging yet again? Is the consequences not already known? If someone stole your salary, do you not already know what you want in consequence and in remedy as a result of his stealing?

See, we can all see that you are pretending therefore your opinions are wrong and clearly born out of the unreasonability of bias and injustice.



Stop reversing the burden of proof and changing post to punishment of a friend of the rapis" and answer the question asked Truthfully, if your wife and daughters are raped and your sons murdered, what is the just is you would demand for these things?

We all know you are dodging and refusing to answer this real life questions because it proves how greatly wrong you are.

Oga you don't need a mediator to have divine connection. That's spiritual autonomy and that's the fundamental difference here. However when violence destroys lives, justice demands accountability through human institutions. I'd seek the harshest legal penalties available if I really need to. Having a personal spiritual belief doesn't contradict the need to seek for earthly justice against those who commit atrocities against you. I'm just waiting for you to actually show me the contradiction here instead of crying blue murder over concepts that are clearly flying over your head.

Dtruthspeaker:
See, you are dodging answering the questions I asked and now resorting to fallacy of switching the burden of proof and repetition and trying to increase the standard of proof with the fallacy of emotional blackmail.

We all know God commanded a counter attack on the bandits who attacked travellers. Or did you not read that these people attacked Isreal like bandits as they were traveling?

So, no metaphor here.

But see, you had to dodge answering the question which is why you had to dodge it and fallaciously answer.

A clear proof that you can now see that you are wrong and now you have wrongly and unjustly accused an Innocent Person.

Hian! What kind of cheap lie is this abeg? The women and children that your god ordered to be killed in the Canaanite regions were bandits that attacked the Israelites? Women and children? Are you serious right now? And what does bandit even mean here? Do you realize you are referring to settled agricultural societies with established cities? Your Bible even acknowledged this fact too.

Please and please, take it easy on the lies. These were incidents that happened in the books of Deuteronomy and Joshua, so let's not play dumb. Your god is a tribal war god and the proof is right there in your Bible.

@FreeIgboho,

Sleight of hand won't work with me. You should be asking yourself WHICH god was behind the Council, Because I can promise you, it's not the true God. He is far too big to bother himself with frivolous earthly affairs. That one is strictly within the domain of your own god.

So if you're saying that your god manipulated the outcome of the Council, then yes. I'm inclined to agree with you.

Constantine did not manipulate Nicea abi? Okay. I hope you're also aware that the bishops who went against the council were excommunicated and experienced Loss of Sees. There's a clear pattern here of unquestionable dominance and control through the elimination of rivals. Which deity embodies this more than the Jewish deity?

Tctrills

:PMy response to you and Moremii
1. Was the Council of Nicaea a Political Plot?
Claim: Constantine used the Council of Nicaea to rewrite Christianity for power.

Christianity did not begin with the Council.

Christians had already been worshiping Jesus as God long before Constantine.

Example: The Apostle Paul writes this in the 50s AD (almost 300 years earlier):

“In Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form” (Colossians 2:9).

The Council of Nicaea didn’t invent anything new.

Obviously, Christians have existed long before Constantine. Who is arguing that with you? Again, you guys keep proving my point. Paul here was describing the pleroma, which is the divine fullness that emanates from the true Invisible Spirit (Monad) beyond this corrupted cosmos. Which divinity did Christians revere Jesus in? Just so you know, there was no single christological view held among the early Christian communities. The Church had so many disparate beliefs coexisting under the umbrella of Christianity. You're acting as if the Gnostic schools didn't exist around this same time. Sects like the Ebionites and the Docetists. They recognized Christ as the divine Logos breaking through Yaldabaoth's material prison.

Doctrinal uniformity only came to be because of the Council. If the god of this world in 2 Corinthians 4:4 is the blinder of minds, then the Christ who brings illumination to the lost souls must represent something entirely distinct from the evil Demiurge of the Old Testament. Do you even know why the Council was created in the first place because your rebuttal here sounds like you don't even know.

tctrills:
2. Did Constantine Choose the Bible Books?
Claim: Constantine threw out books and forced a new Bible.

The canon of the Bible was already forming long before Constantine.

The New Testament letters and Gospels were widely accepted by the early 2nd century, well before Constantine.

Early church fathers like Irenaeus (180 AD) quoted from nearly all 27 New Testament books.

The Nag Hammadi and Gnostic texts were known and rejected before Nicaea—not hidden secrets.

The church didn’t “delete” these books; it discerned which books were trustworthy—those written by the apostles or their close associates, and used in Christian worship since the beginning.
While it is very likely that many records were lost, the records in the modern bible are more than enough evidence that Jesus is the Son of God.

Constantine didn’t choose the Bible. The early Christians passed it down. Many of the"lost books" were already rejected because they contradicted the Gospel of Jesus.

Oya na, if you say that most of the lost books were already rejected because they contradicted the Gospel of Jesus, then you'll have to tell me WHOSE Gospel of Jesus? Is it the sanitized narrative that the politicians crafted, or the original teachings that emphasized spiritual knowledge (gnosis) over mindless institutional submission? Because it was exactly this same definition that was being contested. And we all know how that turned out.

Whenever there were certain texts that preach about gnosis and reveal the Demiurge Yahweh as a false god distinct from the true Invisible Spirit, the institutional authorities would deliberately suppress them? Why was that? What is it about these texts that was so "heretic"? If the god of this world is not the Demiurge, how then do we reconcile the problem of evil?

But most importantly, this is the question we should all be asking ourselves: why should we put all of our faith into the judgment of mortal men who prioritized imperial unity over spiritual truth?

tctrills:
Was the Library of Alexandria Burned to Destroy Christian Truth?
Claim: The Library of Alexandria was burned to erase spiritual diversity.

The Library of Alexandria was not destroyed by Christians to hide the truth.

It was actually burned multiple times over centuries—by Julius Caesar (48 BC), Roman Emperor Aurelian, and possibly later groups.

By the time Christianity gained power, most of the original library was already gone.

The burning of the Library had nothing to do with Constantine or the Bible.

That's not the point. I was just trying to show you a pattern of suppression where "Christian" authorities burn books to eliminate competing texts that contradicted their falsehoods. It's also worth noting that the final destruction of the Library in 391 CE just happened to coincide with the rise of orthodox Christianity's institutional power. Hmmm.

tctrills:
4. Do the Nag Hammadi Texts Reveal the “Real” Christianity?
Claim: Gnostic texts like The Apocryphon of John or Gospel of Philip reveal the real Jesus and were censored.

These writings are Gnostic, written around 150–300 AD, long after the New Testament.

They include strange myths, like:

Sophia accidentally created a demon god (Yaldabaoth).

Jesus was a secret teacher of cosmic knowledge.

The physical world is evil.

These teachings contradict the message of the apostles, who lived with Jesus.

Jesus never taught that the material world is evil or that secret knowledge saves us.

Instead, He said:

“I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” (John 14:6)

Also, 2 Peter 1:16 says:

"We did not follow cleverly invented stories... but we were eyewitnesses of His majesty."

Gnostic texts are later inventions with a different religion behind them. They’re interesting, but they’re not Christian.

You're clearly not a Bible scholar because if you were you would have known that early Christian communities relied on oral traditions and esoteric teachings. Those teachings were committed into writing until much much later. The fact that you think gnostic gospels are strange is only a testament to your lack of philosophical sophistication. And by the way the same argument about dates can be made about the gospels that became canon (Matthew, Mark, Luke, John). Where are the eyewitnesses for this gospels? You're only shooting yourself in the foot by foolishly making a pointless reference to chronology.

The rest of your points here are just your ignorance. Any enlightened person here who has encountered the truth knows that Jesus and his apostles preached about gnosis. That very word "truth" (aletheia) is supposed to mean hidden realities revealed through understanding and not blind faith.

tctrills:
5. Is the “God of this World” Satan or Yaldabaoth?
Claim: The Bible hints that a false god (Yaldabaoth) rules the earth.

The Bible does call Satan “the god of this world” in 2 Corinthians 4:4, but this is not the Creator God—it’s the enemy of God, the tempter, the liar.

God created the world and called it “very good” (Genesis 1:31).

Satan is a fallen angel, not a creator.

The Gnostic idea that a flawed being created the world is completely foreign to the Bible.

Satan is not the true god. He is a created being who opposes God. The Bible never teaches that the world was made by a mistake.

You're not saying anything relevant here. Just quoting Yahwistic gibberish.

tctrills:
6. What About the Problem of Evil?
Claim: A good God cannot allow evil. So the true God must be hidden or beyond this world.

This is a fair question—but the Bible gives a better answer than Gnosticism.

➡ God made the world good.
➡ Evil entered through free will—Adam and Eve’s choice.
➡ God didn’t abandon us—He entered the world through Jesus, suffered with us, and defeated death.

Gnosticism says:

The body is evil.

The world is a mistake.

Salvation comes through secret knowledge.

Christianity says:

The body is sacred.

The world is fallen but redeemable.

Salvation comes through faith in Jesus, not secret insight.

The God of the Bible doesn’t ignore evil. He enters into it, takes it on Himself, and promises to make all things new.


What Is Gnosticism?
Gnosticism was a religious movement in the 2nd–4th centuries AD, claiming that:

The material world is evil.

The true God is far away and unknowable.

The world was created by a flawed, ignorant being called Yaldabaoth (also called the Demiurge).

Salvation comes through secret spiritual knowledge (gnosis), not faith or grace.

Jesus was a spiritual messenger, not the Son of God who died for sins.

Sounds strange? That’s because it is very different from Christianity.

What Does the Bible Teach?
The Bible, from Genesis to Revelation, tells a very different story:

God created the world, and He called it good (Genesis 1:31).

God is knowable, personal, and loving—He wants a relationship with us.

Evil entered the world not because creation is flawed, but because of human sin (Genesis 3).

Salvation comes through Jesus Christ, the Son of God, by grace through faith, not secret knowledge (Ephesians 2:8–9).

Jesus is not just a teacher. He is God in the flesh (John 1:1,14), who died for our sins and rose again (1 Corinthians 15:3–4).

Who Is Yaldabaoth, and Is He in the Bible?
Yaldabaoth is a Gnostic mythological figure, not a real being in Scripture.

Gnostics claimed:

Yaldabaoth is a deformed being created by Sophia (Wisdom).

He thinks he is the only god.

He creates the physical world in ignorance.

He traps souls in material bodies.

But the Bible teaches:

God alone is the Creator (Genesis 1:1; Isaiah 45:18).

God is all-wise, not ignorant (Romans 11:33).

God is not deformed or jealous, but holy, just, and loving (Exodus 34:6–7).

There is no other god beside Him (Isaiah 44:6–.

So the idea of Yaldabaoth completely contradicts Scripture and is not part of Christian belief.


Why the Word of God Could Not Have Come from Gnosticism
Gnostic teachings deny key truths of the Bible:
They reject that Jesus is God made flesh (John 1:14).

They deny Jesus' death and resurrection, which are central to the Gospel (1 Corinthians 15:1–4).

They teach that salvation is only for the spiritually elite, not for all people (Romans 10:13).

Jesus never taught secret knowledge for the few:
He said:

“I have spoken openly to the world... I said nothing in secret.” (John 18:20)

The Gospels were written by eyewitnesses:
Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John were written in the 1st century, by people who knew Jesus.

Gnostic texts like the Apocryphon of John or Gospel of Thomas were written 100–200 years later, by people with no connection to Jesus or the apostles.

“For God so loved the world that He gave His only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.” (John 3:16)

Gnosticism teaches elitism.
Christianity teaches grace for all.

The Gnostic writings, including stories about Yaldabaoth, are fascinating, but they are false teachings that:

contradict Jesus' own words,

deny the true God of the Bible,

and distort the Gospel.

The Word of God is found in Scripture, passed down through faithful witnesses who walked with Jesus. The Gospel is not a secret—it’s a gift of salvation offered to every man, woman, and child, not hidden knowledge for the few.

Sighs. More Yahwistic gibberish.

After all the gymnastics you've performed here, you've still failed to address the elephant in the room: Yahweh of the Hebrew scriptures is a genocidal maniac. You know the passages all over the new testament. The ones that command infanticide, the ones that command slavery and so on. Ritual blood sacrifices, ethnic cleansing: these are signatures of a deity that is inherently malevolent. You have not addressed how a supposedly perfect all-loving god is always power drunk, always demanding for worship and refusing contact with his "beloved" creation without priestly intermediaries. Why does your perfect God seek constant validation? Is he insecure?

by the way, how are gnostics elitist? In the gnostic texts, we recognize the tripartite nature of human beings: pneumatics (spirit), psychics (soul), and hylics (body). This is our way of saying that everybody has spiritual capacity or a fragment of the divine spark within them. Everyone is capable of achieving gnosis, but for some it's going to be harder than others because they're not easily receptive. It doesn't make it impossible though. Paul said it in the Bible that "the natural person does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him" (1 Corinthians 2:14). Thats why gnosticism sounds "strange" and bizarre to you. You are a natural person and so it makes perfect sense that you will be confused and or misled. But it doesn't prevent you from seeking out the truths for yourself.

"To you it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given" (Matthew 13:11).

That is why Jesus CONSTANTLY speaks in parables deliberately to conceal meaning from the uninitiated. The canonical gospels themselves support the entire concept of graduated revelation. Gnosis is a journey of self-discovery and I'm not going to hold your hand. Instead of making up excuses to remain a slave to your Father of Lies forever, why don't you actually grab a hold of the gnostic gospels and do deeper research into the origin of the Bible? As it is, you're only a slave polishing your own shackles.

FreeIgboho:
He'd have come to power 1000 years after proclaiming the edict!

There's nothing to attend; There's no way you can divorce Jesus from Yahweh!

To be honest, I wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt that you're intelligent enough to know where you goofed up, but your poor reading skills astonishes me. I'm still surprised you didn't notice but you're actually the one who mentioned 1306, implying that Constantine would have issued the Edict of Milan in 313 CE, and then waited a thousand years to become emperor in 1306. That's why I tried to correct you that you meant to write 306 CE and not 1306.

Don't believe me?

FreeIgboho:
Also, Constantine actually came to power in 1306.
He was the one who enacted the Edict of Milan in 313

Moremii:
Thank you. 1306 is not 306 CE though, but maybe it was a typo on your part. And I never disputed that he enacted the Edict of Milan.

So it's funny that you're here, with no self-awareness, laughing like a jackal at your own blunder.

For your info, I was too occupied when I saw your mention about this the first time, and that's why I couldn't answer you properly. So let's now sort out this alleged discrepancy. In addition to a Wikipedia screenshot, I've included another screenshot from your friend Google. Apparently, she didn't give you the full gist earlier: Yes, Constantine was declared as Emperor by his father in 306 CE, but he didn't gain full control over the entire Roman Empire until 324 CE after defeating his rivals in the East.

So once again, it's nice that you pointed out the earlier date of his declaration but ultimately, it has very little relevance to my overall argument.

FreeIgboho:
I take it you and Moremi believe the NT. How do these excerpts below not totally contradict your thesis? Who's prophets and commandments do you think Jesus was talking about?

...

Here are the scriptures (If Jesus is not of Yahweh why was he so obsessed with fulfilling everything of Yahweh?)

Mathew 5
17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished

Mathew 15
24 He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.”
25 The woman came and knelt before him. “Lord, help me!” she said.
26 He replied, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.”

Luke 4
“The Spirit of the Lord is on me,
because he has anointed me
to proclaim good news to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners
and recovery of sight for the blind,
to set the oppressed free,
19 to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.”

20 Then he rolled up the scroll, gave it back to the attendant and sat down. The eyes of everyone in the synagogue were fastened on him. 21 He began by saying to them, “Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.”

Instead of pretending about Jesus of the Bible, the honest thing for you folks to do is, forget the Jesus of the Bible entirely and create a new Jesus that is devoid of Yahweh and has only elements palatable to you!

Uncle, first off, you're not even remotely qualified to dictate to me what I should or should not do with my understanding of Jesus. To me you're just a Christian with Stockholm syndrome clinging to anachronistic, retrogressive, primitive, literalist interpretation of the scriptures. What makes you think you can lecture anybody on the nature of spiritual truth? This is the reason why any intellectual worth his salt doesn't take you modern Christians seriously. It's one thing to be ignorant but It's another thing to be WILFULLY ignorant... and then top it off with arrogance and false confidence.

Let's make one thing clear: whatever you choose to do with your beliefs is none of my business, and it goes the other way round as well. The reason I even created this thread is because I believe in the diversity of thought, as opposed to fostering echo chambers where people stroke each other's ego all the time. I'm not here to force anybody to my version of Christianity. We don't all have to agree. Gnosticism is just something I've come to realize as the most reasonable Christian doctrine, and the evidence so far points this way to me, especially from the content of the hidden books. It also resonates strongly with my personal epistemology of cosmic dualism, and that's why I believe it and thought to share it.

You don't get to tell me how I choose to interpret the Bible. If you have the facts to disprove the conclusions I've arrived at after all my study, then just bring it forward. That's all I'm here for.

Now back to the rest of your argument...

I talk say make I take my time siddon answer you because truth doesn't run sprints. It runs marathons. I noticed you kept pressing on me to respond. I still have real life engagements, so you'll have to bear with me. As far as this topic is concerned, we have all the time in the world. I've not forgotten about it.

But before I address the three texts you referenced, I will bring back these verses from the Apocryphon of John that I posted earlier for you to read. Read it very carefully because certain things described here will be germane to the rest of our discussion:

It happened that the realm (aeon) Wisdom (Sophia)
Of conceptual thought (Epinoia),
Began to think for herself,
She used the thinking (enthymesis)
And the foreknowledge (prognosis)
Of the Invisible Spirit.
She intended to reveal an image from herself
To do so without the consent of the Spirit,
Who did not approve,
Without the thoughtful assistance of her masculine counterpart,
Who did not approve.
Without the Invisible Spirit’s consent
Without the knowledge of her partner
She brought it into being.
Because she had unconquerable Power
Her thought was not unproductive.
Something imperfect came out of her.
Different in appearance from her.
Because she had created it without her masculine counterpart
She gave rise to a misshapen being unlike herself.

Sophia saw what her desire produced.
It changed into the form of a dragon with a lion’s head
And eyes flashing lightning bolts.
She cast him far from her,
Outside of the realm of the immortal beings
So that they could not see him.
[She had created him in ignorance.]
Sophia surrounded him with a brilliant cloud,
Put a throne in the center part of the cloud
So that no one would see it.
[Except for the Holy Spirit called the Mother of the Living]
She named him Yaldabaoth.
Yaldabaoth is the chief ruler.
He took great Power (dynamis) from his mother,
Left her, and moved away from his birthplace.
He assumed command,
Created realms for himself
With a brilliant flame that continues to exist even now.

[...]

Yaldabaoth modeled his creation
On the pattern of the original realms above him
So that it might be just like the indestructible realms.

[Not that he had ever seen the indestructible ones.
Rather, the power in him, deriving from his mother,
made him aware of the pattern of the cosmos above.]

When he gazed upon his creation surrounding him
He said to his host of demons
The ones who had come forth out of him:
“I am a jealous God and there is no God but me!”



Done? Good.

We're about to find out just how well you've studied your Bible. Now for the sake of our discussion, let me re-introduce you to Jesus Christ in this topic if I haven't done so already. He is not an emissary of this Yaldaboath spoken of in the verses above. In gnostic texts, he is regarded as an emissary from the true Pleroma sent to awaken the pneuma (spiritual) souls to the knowledge (gnosis) of their true origins and free them from this material prison called earth.

One day he was with his disciples in Judea. He found them sitting together practicing their piety. When he [came up to] his disciples 34 sitting together praying over the bread, [he] laughed.

The disciples said to him, "Master, why are you laughing at [our] prayer? What have we done? [This] is what's right."

He answered and said to them, "I'm not laughing at you. You're not doing this because you want to, but because through this your God [will be] praised."

They said, "Master, you […] are the Son of our God!"

Jesus said to them, "How do [you] know me? Truly [I] say to you, no generation of the people among you will know me."

When his disciples heard this, [they] started to get angry and furious and started to curse him in their hearts.

But when Jesus noticed their ignorance, [he said] to them, "Why are you letting your anger trouble you? Has your God within you and [his stars] 35 become angry with your souls? If any of you is [strong enough] among humans to bring out the perfect Humanity, stand up and face me."

All of them said, "We're strong enough." But their spirits weren't brave enough to stand before [him] – except Judas Iscariot. He was able to stand before him, but he couldn't look him in the eye, so he looked away.

Judas [said] to him, "I know who you are and where you've come from. You've come from the immortal realm of Barbelo, and I'm not worthy to utter the name of the one who's sent you." (The Gospel of Judas)

Did you notice how he said "your god"? Did you notice how modern Christianity was prophesied here? Anyway let's move on for now.
In the Matthew verse that you mentioned, you're actually right. Jesus did talk about how he was "fulfilling" the law and the prophets, but what he was really talking about there was bringing to completion or revealing mankind's ultimate purpose that was obscured or misinterpreted within the existing framework. I'll explain.

The "Law" of the Old Testament was the one decreed by Yaldaboath, which was a crude an imperfect shadow of the true "Law". There are glimpses of truth within it and distorted reflections of the divine order, but the reason it was designed in the first place was actually to control and reinforce the Demiurge's authority over his creation. The prophets in the Bible spoke under the veil of Yaldaboath's influence, but even their pronouncements had latent truths in them, seeds of Gnosis waiting to be germinated. Remember: everybody has that divine spark in them. Even the atheists.

Then I too revealed my Voice secretly, saying, "Cease! Desist, (you) who tread on matter; for behold, I am coming down to the world of mortals for the sake of my portion that was in that place from the time when the innocent Sophia was conquered, she who descended, so that I might thwart their aim which the one revealed by her appoints." And all were disturbed, each one who dwells in the house of the ignorant light, and the abyss trembled. And the Archigenetor of ignorance reigned over Chaos and the underworld, and produced a man in my likeness. But he neither knew that that one would become for him a sentence of dissolution, nor does he recognize the power in him.

But now I have come down and reached down to Chaos. And I was with my own who were in that place. I am hidden within them, empowering them, giving them shape. And from the first day until the day when I will grant mighty glory to those who are mine, I will reveal myself to those who have heard my mysteries, that is, the Sons of the Light. (Trimorphic Protennoia)

Over all the archons he appointed an Archon with no one commanding him. He is the lord of all of them, that is, the countenance which the Logos brought forth in his thought as a representation of the Father of the Totalities. Therefore, he is adorned with every <name> which <is> a representation of him, since he is characterized by every property and glorious quality. For he too is called "father" and god" and "demiurge" and "king" and "judge" and "place" and "dwelling" and "law."

The Logos uses him as a hand, to beautify and work on the things below, and he uses him as a mouth, to say the things which will be prophesied.

The things which he has spoken he does. When he saw that they were great and good and wonderful, he was pleased and rejoiced, as if he himself in his own thought had been the one to say them and do them, not knowing that the movement within him is from the spirit who moves him in a determined way toward those things which he wants. (Tripartite Tractate)

So when you're talking about laws, what "Laws" are being referred to here? Let's take the Mosaic Law for instance. Of course you have the ten commandments. Then you also have all those hundreds of prohibitions and strictures that are embedded in the books of Leviticus and Deuteronomy. Many of these laws, as you well know, are full of rigid instructions and demands for sacrifice, and instances where violence is permitted and whatnot. But when Jesus came, what did he do? He redirected the focus from rigid adherence to external rules and started to place higher emphasis on the internal transformation of the human heart. Just take a look at the book of Matthew here.

21 Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:

22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;

24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.

25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.

26 Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.

27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:

28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. (Matthew 5:21-28)

Was any law abolished here? No. Instead he fulfilled the law by showing us how even the mere thought of anger and hatred for example, was a transgression against the higher principles of love (love your neighbor as yourself). The "laws" of the Demiurge were crafted to control and govern behavior and that's why they felt so stiff and rigid. Jesus came and elevated those laws. He was focused more on our personal and internal convictions, from our own heart, and not just our mere outward compliance (window-dressing) to avoid the punishments of an insufferable and jealous deity. In the Old Testament, animal sacrifice was considered the primary way to atone for your sins, but Jesus came down to fulfill the sacrificial system by revealing to us that the biggest sacrifice or offering is a contrite heart: a heart that is open to the Father and a spirit that is attuned to the divine Pleroma, and not the blood of innocent animals.

23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.” (John 4:23-24)

So again, yes, Jesus came to "fulfill" the Law and the Prophets by re-contextualizing old knowledge within new revelations and understanding. He is basically letting us know that the limitations and harshness of the Yahwistic Law are as a result of the Demiurge's ignorance, and the true path can be found only by transcending them through attaining direct spiritual insight. The Demiurge doesn't even know he's being sabotaged himself, where he's indirectly allowed Christ to cause souls to rise against him within his own kingdom. LOL

The "smallest letter" and "least stroke of a pen" will surely not disappear until "everything is accomplished". Why? Because GNOSIS completes the entire cycle! The heavens (galaxies) and the earth created by the Demiurge will eventually pass away when true Gnosis reigns and the pneumatic souls escape this material prison. (2 Corinthians 5:17)

If you have taken note so far, this explanation also addresses the passage you cited from Luke about Jesus reading Isaiah 61 in the synagogue. Who are the poor in spirit? The blind? The prisoners? The oppressed? They are all of us: the fragments of the divine spark trapped in the human flesh. The prophets spoke as directed by the Demiurge, but within their thoughts and speeches still contained seeds of Gnosis that Jesus came to germinate. So if you thought you cooked here, you didn't. Jesus did not come for Israel only. His mission is not ethnocentric. Because if that was the case, then he shouldn't be having any business with the Gentiles at all, but he did. He healed the Centurion's slave, the Syrophoenician woman and so on. And notice how he healed them:

"GO... YOUR FAITH HAS MADE YOU WHOLE"

Notice how it was the spiritual insight of those two people that moved Jesus to decree healing into their household. When Jesus initially dismissed them or handwaved their requests, they showed faith in him as well as a deeper understanding of the Gospel of Christ, moving Jesus to heal them and demonstrating that true salvation through gnosis doesn't care about ethnic and religious boundaries. If it did then Jesus should have just focused purely on the Jews. Why do you think the Scribes and the Pharisees at the time detested him for hanging out with "unbelievers"? Why do you think they hated his guts?

What's your understanding of the Great Commission? LOL. You don't even know your own Jesus. Don't worry more shocking (and painful) revelations are coming your way soon.

LordReed:
Just coming to the thread so I dunno if you've answered this. Are you into some kinda Gnostic traditions or writings?

Yes, pretty much. I've elaborated a bit on this in the couple of posts that followed my OP.

@FreeIgboho

What happened to your rebuttal? Can't find it anymore.

Nevermind. Just seen it.

FreeIgboho:
Also, Constantine actually came to power in 1306.
He was the one who enacted the Edict of Milan in 313

Thank you. 1306 is not 306 CE though, but maybe it was a typo on your part. And I never disputed that he enacted the Edict of Milan.

I will attend to the rest of your rebuttal when I'm chanced.

DeepSight:
@ Moremii

Assuming that the Demiurge exists as Yaldaboath, as per your posts. What is the hope of escape from Yaldaboath's physical creation, for human souls.

Do you believe in reincarnation and the cycle of Samsara and do you take a Hindu approach to breaking that cycle and attaining nirvana.

Great question. So great I don't know how I can answer it in a short sentence hahaha. I guess when it comes to reincarnation, my view on it could be seen as being technically similar to what is generally believed in Hindu and certain Christian sects, in some respects. Basically, Gnosis is the ONLY way out of this material "hell", if you wish to call it that. We have to eschew rituals, blind faith, mindless worship, and resist being submissive to the tyrannous ruler of this realm. We must emphasize active and intellectual search. This is where science gets it right, except for the fact that the discipline seems to have been been run over by materialists, at least judging by what I see online. We also need to emphasize a spiritual thirst for knowledge that will help us discern truth from lies and light from shadows.

We're not exactly striving to merge with a "Brahman" (which could just be another demiurgic construct), but to fully realize and reunite with the spark of the Divine within ourselves (pneuma) and allow it to ascend back to its source, the Monad or true God above all creation. There's practically no prescribed set of meditations or devotion to earthly deities involved.

Dtruthspeaker:
I have seen where you clearly show what issues are making you think this way and I addressed them. So let me more over to see how you responded to my address

Modified!
I see you have still not responded to my rebuttals.

I think I have responded to all your comments. If there's anyone I missed let me know

MaxInDHouse:
OK now i understand you're just joking!

It's always the tactic of the fearful to downplay serious matters as a joke. I understand.

MaxInDHouse:
Sorry i am Maximus one of Jehovah's Witnesses!

Noted

FreeIgboho:
So let's see your response to my post

I'm preparing your response too. Just be patient. I don't have time on my hands all the time.

Dtruthspeaker:
Did you not read that Jesus came to save mankind?

From what and from Whom was He trying to save man from?

Then the question is, is it justified that man should get the punishments and destruction awaiting him?

With these we will know whether you speak reasonably or you are speaking because you know that are not worthy of salvation.

For even Jesus too Said that He is Coming back to destroy all these who refused salvation, so running to Jesus is still not an escape, Paul's friend Demas did it and he fell by the wayside

Thank you for proving my point!

Okay, so Jesus came to save humanity. From who you ask? From Yaldaboath of course, the false god that Christians worship today. The one that created this material prison. Christ came to save the pneumatic spark that the jealous Yaldaboath and his archons trapped within the flesh.

So now, ask yourself this interesting question: if the Father and Son are supposed to be one and the same, then why does humanity need to be saved from the Father's own wrath? It's because they're not actually the same entity! The wrathful destroyer you are describing here is the Demiurge, but Jesus is the emanation of the Everlasting God who came down to help us in breaking free from the archonic deceptions.

I don't expect you to understand anything I'm saying here because I know how these things are with fundamentalist Christians, but I'll implore you to take your time and research on these things (with an open mind o!). Like I said, the rabbit hole goes really deep.

Your last paragraph will be addressed in the response I'm preparing for Mr. Maxwell.

Dtruthspeaker:
Ehen! So another of your problems is with what is called "old testament".

To answer you, I ask, would you be happy if you hear a bomb was dropped on bandits/kidnappers camp?

Nawa. These your questions are very funny sha, but let me try and answer you.

To start with, please put some context into your comparisons. Your god ordered the mass genocide of the Amorites, Jebusites, Hittites, and countless other clans in the Canaanite region in a bid to expand Israel's territory as part of his divine mandate. He explicitly ordered the killing of every living thing in those regions.

So unless you have a way to justify that the women and children in all those regions are as morally bankrupt as the bandits and kidnappers you mention, you don't have any argument here and your question is irrelevant. Your god commanded the murder of women and children who have committed no crimes. And I know that even your own modern ethical intuitions recoil from this. That is why you you have no choice but to retreat into metaphors about "bandits". The true Christ consciousness never operates through mass slaughter. Mindless killing like that is purely in the domain of Yaldaboath alone, the blind fool who mistakes his own violent impulses for righteousness.

So stop trying to defend genocide, you hear? Good.

Dtruthspeaker:
If your salary say ₦145k is stolen, what is the just is that you would demand/require! While at it, if your wife and daughters are raped and your sons murdered, what is the just is for these things?

If someone steals from me, justice requires that they should face the consequences if/when they are caught. Injustice (and lack of common sense) is when I decide to punish an innocent party. Anyone who calls me a fool or a wicked person in that case has the right to do so because I have acted unfairly.

Let me now ask you, since you brought up rape. If your friend raped somebody and I punished you, just because you are his friend, am I being fair to you? Is that justice in your world? If you say no, then why can't you see that this is the exact same problem your so-called "god" has? Why is he always looking for a scapegoat? Why can't he punish people directly and just leave their wives and children and generations of unborn children alone?

The answer is because he's a false god. He cannot forgive freely. There always has to be a cost... a sacrifice.

Dtruthspeaker:
Since your brother and neighbour are made in the image of God, why do you complain and go to court that she stole your husband?

LOL. Well, that's not something I'd do personally if we want to be realistic. However, what's the problem here? People experience a lot of emotional pain because of cheating wives and husbands and thankfully, legal systems exist to address practical injustices right there in the moment but it doesn't contradict the rejection of unnecessary religious intermediaries, especially when communing directly with the divine is easily granted.

Dtruthspeaker:
I don't know what you mean by Hebrew Bible but the Bible did say

"An hypocrite with his mouth destroyeth his neighbour: but through knowledge shall the just be delivered."

So, no where did the bible prevent people from getting where in fact it is also giving Knowledge

You try. But this doesn't really address my point satisfactorily.

Adam and Eve were punished from eating from the Tree of Knowledge.

The builders in the Tower of Babel were confused and sabotaged by your god.

Deuteronomy forbids seeking wisdom from foreign sources.

There's a verse from the book of Ecclesiastes that declares that "in much wisdom is much grief".

I could probably give more examples, but I'm sure you get the point. Or at least I hope you do. You have to at least admit that there's been a consistent pattern of epistemological suppression throughout the Bible today. Obviously there are passages that exalt knowledge, but they are few and far between, especially in comparison with the books that were deliberately excluded from canon.

Dtruthspeaker:
From your response I glean that your problem in and wth Christianity is the one promoted and advertised by pastorprenuers and I perceive, something that has to do with the of testament but you have not made it clear.

in which case you ought to contend with the messenger rather than lump both the message and the messenger together.

Then you don't understand what I've been saying since. This is more than just corrupt pastors changing and distorting pure doctrine. The real problem here is that the institutional "message" itself was compromised centuries ago from the moment the proto-orthodontists decided to join Christ's pneumatic revelation with the Hebrew scriptures. The "messenger" you are defending canonized texts that not only contradict the pneumatic gospels that existed before the Nicean Council, but served as a narrative to support their political ambitions by demanding blind obedience and submission to lies.

If you want to talk about shooting the message and not the messenger, then you should know that the authentic teachings of Christ was systemically suppressed over time by the very "fathers" who claimed to preserve it. In this case, you cannot seperate the message and the messenger because the messenger has wilfully altered the true meaning of the message.

MaxInDHouse:
Well the whole thread is just a joke until you can prove Yahweh to be different from the God who sent Jesus!

I already did. If you can't see the proof or want to pretend that you didn't see it, then the joke is on you.

DeepSight:
This is so simple and so clear it is tiresome that it can be disputed.

That the god of the Old Testament is really a blood thirsty pagan Jewish mountain deity is no news. And no one with a conscience could find it within themselves to worship such a barbaric entity.

By contrast the teachings of Christ are illumined with higher and noble principles far beyond the highest reach of the monster of the Old Testament. I personally do not even believe that that monster existed at all, but was the creation of the patriarchal human minds who wrote it into existence with their desperation for dominion, conquest and control.

I am nonetheless aware of several interesting schools of thought, some of which for example suggest that Yahweh was actually an extra terrestrial being of a sort, which, along with other aliens, participated in the early set up of mankind on Earth for very different reasons than advanced in the Bible.

The school of thought you advance, which tallies with that of Yahweh being the Demiurge, is also very interesting and something I don't discountenance.

Indeed, your conscience serves you well to abandon the worship of such a draconian and malevolent being. I believe true gnosis begins when you start to see all these potholes in mainstream "Christianity".

The only thing I might assert here though is that it is more likely that the Demiurge operates through these patriarchal human minds to warp the reality of our universe, and not the other way round. Afterall, I do believe that beings exist that transcend our known universe and govern all the forces in it.

Surprisingly I think the theory of Yahweh being an extraterrestrial being technically still aligns with gnostic cosmology because the Apocryphon of John describes the Demiurge as the creator of humans in the material through genetic manipulation, and he was assisted by his archons.


So I guess one could interpret this as aliens, but it's still non-human intelligence shaping our world for whatever purposes or non-purposes, haha.

tctrills:
You have made his day. I am sure he is celebrating your comments

Well I'm honored to have do so

tctrills:
Again to summarize your point because the new testament emphasized on love much more than the old, Christians worship Yaldaboath.
This is your idea of sound reasoning?

You're not getting my point. Are you not seeing the ontological contradictions? There's no point being reductive and summarizing what I'm saying if you're not even going to get the point.

My God transcends creation.

Your god actively involves himself in it and obsessively controls it through violence and law, while being prejudiced and hypocritical.

If you want to insist that they're still the same "God", then you're indirectly saying that God's nature can change which will go against the doctrine of divine immutability (God is eternal). I'm sure you know this.

Goosethetruth:
Interesting...
I see traces of Marcion of Sinope in this your write up. He was the first personality in the church to create his own bibliography which excluded the Demiurge God of the old testament.
His own Bible consisted of the gospels and the letters of Paul but the church elders and leaders branded him a heretic and a blasphemer . They confisticated and burned all copies of this Bible and banished Marcion.

However reading your thread further I see that you probably know about Marcion already.
I personally find that most Christians don't know much about their Bible and it's origins and are not even interested in knowing any thing about the Bible, in fact I would go further to state that Christians are scared to research into the history of the Bible because the mind control is very deep
Closely following this thread.

Yes Sir, I'm actually very familiar with Marcion. Although the difference between I and him in terms of ideology is that I don't know if he supports the Tripartite doctrine of the pneumatic soul (spirit) from the Valentinian ideology, because I do and I believe it's perfectly explainable with relation to how people behave today. I could be wrong about Marcion there though. Maybe I missed something in my reading.

Please keep reading. There'll probably be more to add here if time permits me later today.

tctrills:
No, that was meant for your brother. He is carried away by every wind that discredits Christ. The boy has zero opinion as long as it's against Christ. And yes expect to hear more.

Well that's not how I read him. He easily comes across as the most enlightened that has graced this thread so far, so I guess that's just your opinion. Like i said, I'll be waiting

MaxInDHouse:
First of all i'm not a pastor and will never ever be one.
Secondly the idea that Yahweh is not the true God is a fallacy.
Lastly i thought you know the use of tone in Yorùbá but the highlighted shows you don't!

First, my calling you a pastor was just me teasing you, I didn't mean it literally
Second, you'll have to do more than this to show your point instead of just breathlessly mumbling that I'm wrong.
Third, my written Yoruba is not good, but the fact that it's the best response you've produced here tells me you're clueless on the overall topic.

tctrills:
Hmm
Twisted thoughts.
Your point is that genocide in the bible is that great prove that christians worship Yaldaboath.
You are all over the place but I don't see the connection. What's your real evidence that Yaldaboath is the Christian God. You guys keep making up things.

Sir the evidence is in your own Bible. Look at the old and new testament, then compare notes: In the new testament (NT), Jesus speaks of the Supreme Father as a God of love and forgiveness. He also encourages mindfulness and curiosity. Then check the old testament (OT), and you will see a wrathful god that is completely unforgiving, driven by material obsession and jealousy. He said it himself that he's a jealous god, abi did you skip that part or did that part skip you?

In the Old testament alone, he drowned the entire world, he commanded the slaughter of the canaanites, he obsessed over sacrifice, both burnt and live. He's a complete narcissist, obsessed with control and worship. Oya read him and read the God who sent Christ and tell me the difference if you're honest enough to admit it.

It's no use playing dumb, unless you're truly THAT ignorant here. You worship a deity who created a world filled to the brim with suffering, diseases, pain and death, only to turn around and blame humanity for its "fallen" condition. When we look at the gnostic cosmogony, there is perfect explanation that makes sense if you use your rational mind: Yaldaboath, birthed from the misguided emanations of Sophia, created a flawed material realms and proclaims himself the only god. This is exactly what your Yahweh did in the OT.

Here, let me show you.....

Yaldabaoth modeled his creation
On the pattern of the original realms above him
So that it might be just like the indestructible realms.

[Not that he had ever seen the indestructible ones.
Rather, the power in him, deriving from his mother,
made him aware of the pattern of the cosmos above.]

When he gazed upon his creation surrounding him
He said to his host of demons
The ones who had come forth out of him:
“I am a jealous God and there is no God but me!” (The Apocryphon of John)

Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; (Exodus 20:5)

I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: (Isaiah 45:5)

If you're looking for evidence, read your Bible with an open mind. Why do you think the Valentinians and especially Marcionites rejected the god of the Hebrew Bible? In the case of the Marcionites, they rejected the Bible in all its entirety. It was when the proto-orthodox faction needed Roman imperial support that the apostolic cover up started to retrofit Christianity into a state religion. There are videos all over the internet about these things, so I'm not just rambling. You can check them out for yourself.

tctrills:
Lol
You only accepted a position that discredits Christ.
You don't even know if anything she said is true.
A lot she said is false but then you don't care. It's the kind of things you love hearing.
Can we do something here, I will write a rebuttal to her and I want you to defend her position with history and facts. Do you accept the challenge?
Let's see if you really have any position.

No problem Sir. I'll be waiting for your rebuttal too.

tctrills:
Lol
You have this affinity for strange, unproven and quite foolish opinions. Anything that discredits Christ, they will find you there.
Now can you highlight the teachings of Jesus Christ that are reflected in this religion you guys are talking about ?
Please compare the teachings of your Yaldabaoth to that of Jesus Christ let's see how far you go.

You just swallowed everything in the writeup without asking a single question or even making your own research. As long as the writing disproves the divinity of Christ you automatically support it

Hmmm. It's alright. I expected responses like this.

For your information, I'm not discrediting Christ. Where did I discredit Christ from my OP to my second post? Christ is undeniable, but I'm saying he's not the domesticated version you guys worship as the blood sacrifice of a false god. Yaldaboath is your god, not mine. Christ goes against everything your Demiurge espouses, particularly in the Old Testament.

Maybe you should ask yourself the following questions, if you're truthful to yourself:

1. Why does a loving god command genocide in the Hebrew Bible?
2. Why must salvation require blood sacrifice if your god truly forgives sins?
3. Why do we need to engage with priestly mediators when we were told that we're made in God's image?
4. Why is seeking knowledge forbidden in parts of the Hebrew Bible and even treated as spiritual pride? Is ignorance a virtue to you?

In your version of Christianity you champion blind faith, even with all the vagueness and contradictions compiled by Constantine. You humiliate Christ by making him a subordinate to a tribal god who only cares about the Israelites, and I'm the one who's undermining abi discrediting Christ? LOL.