nuclearboy:

Again you name "nuclearboy" - And I did tell you not to make me your idol, didn't I? I don't like it.

Long before NL existed, I acknowledged I was a sinner, acknowledged the saving Grace and sacrifice of the Lord Jesus and asked that He be captain of my life. I ALSO DECIDED THAT TRUTH would be my way, no matter whose Ox was gored or what it costs me.

I realised that the Apostles of Christ and EVERY SINGLE EXAMPLE of a Christian in the Word of God did not financially profit from the Gospel and in fact lost their livelihoods, friends and in many cases, their lives for the Gospel. I made SUCH CHRISTIANS my mentors - people who gave for God, not took from others using His Name as an excuse.

Interestingly, though you matter little, my 1st paragraph above fulfills your conditions. So why not take your own advice and stop condemning another's servant. My master is able to handle me

Dulcet7:


Can we discuss - what is the full import of salvation?

Joagbaje:


^^^^^
what do you mean by full import

Dulcet7:

Dear madam Jesoul, here as promised and sorry its late

You already know some of my views on religion from other threads. As always, I state, I am a theist - I believe in God and for me there is no further embellishment by the title of any religious persuasion except my heart.

My views about the full import of salvation
Salvation is not an event, it is a discovery, an experience that spans time. It is a journey that reunites man with purpose: and this purpose is to jumpstart his fellow man on the road to their own salvation. The journey is a discovery of love - becoming a love filled individual, a true paragon of loving virtue.

Salvation begins with a spark of discovery - of love - then continues into an experience. The "love of God" is a catalyst that makes that experience move along faster from the moment that spark happens.

For some people, that spark is "confessing Jesus as their Lord and Saviour" as Christians do (since it makes them - SOME of them - reflect on true love as a gift from God - and makes them want to apply it to fellow man) but that spark is not enough (even Jesus never mentioned confessing trust in his sacrifice as the final requirement for salvation - besides saying the prerequisite that he would be lifted up like Moses' snake for people's sins - please correct me if I am wrong - he actually said its not all who call him Lord that are his own people) which is why the same Christians are yet told to work out their salvation with fear and trembling.

A Muslim might receive such an enlightenment spark while doing one of his 5 required pillars of faith and suddenly finding out the secret truth that may escape many other Muslims - those pillars are symbolic - and stumbling upon this symbolism he finds a spark of salvation that leads him on a brand new journey - still in Islam - but now on the way to assured salvation.

For an Eastern mystic, it might be a moment of meditation which enlightens them about a duty of love to fellow man.

For others, it might be a neighbor's kind gesture - clothes or food when you were in need - the giver was undergoing salvation and you were in their path to help them get there - it is like using a candle to light another candle - both now have the light but the first one didnt lose anything. Whatever the spark was, from whatever religion, grow the spark and experience the journey of salvation.

newmi:

@Dulcet7
I was impressed with your post l must comment it makes alot of "SENSE" logically.

Whichever way the spark starts, the salvation is incomplete until "Christ" is complete in you. Salvation is therefore only found in "Christ".

What is "Christ"

Dulcet7:

Do you refer to his manifestation as a human being or to his identity as the epitome of love and salvation among men - being the only one who saved himself and showed others the most excellent way?

If it is the latter then I agree with you because thats the same thing I have said above. To you as a Christian, Jesus physically manifested to reveal this nature among men. The Buddha and Krishna too are believed by others to have done same - howbeit with various natures of doctrines and various demonstrations of love.

But behind all the teachings is that exemplary life in each case. Putting aside details of human persons and focusing on the identity they stood for, let us for now call that identity the Christ.

After receiving the first spark of salvation, men grow up in love until "Christ" is formed in them (as Paul wrote), even if they dont call it Christ. We cant all speak the same language - some would call it enlightenment. Others would call it perfection or holiness. Others destiny or purpose.

Dulcet7:

Thanks for reading my post. See here in bold italics about what I mean by Christ (I didn't mean Jesus Christ, but rather meant that which Jesus Christ is eternally identified as - an embodiment of love). Then the next  3 paragraphs give more context.

Galatians 5:6
For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

seyibrown:

Why is accepting this 'Christ' that is derived from Jesus Christ an assurance of salvation?

If the work of salvation is only found in the redemption that is in the blood of Jesus Christ, where is it found in this other 'Christ' that is not Jesus Christ? 

From your previous posts, Is a religion that kills people before they have the opportubnity to find Christ also 'Right' as you say no religion is wrong?

Can the true person of Jesus Christ be found in any Religion that advocates inhumanity of man to other men, which is contrary of what Jesus Christ preached? [/b]

Is the 'Christ' that is available through all other religions the same in 'principles' e.g love, holiness, forgiveness, repentance, after-life etc?

Dulcet7:

My views about the full import of salvation
Salvation is not an event, it is a discovery, an experience that spans time. It is a journey that reunites man with purpose: and this purpose is to jumpstart his fellow man on the road to their own salvation. The journey is a discovery of love - becoming a love filled individual, a true paragon of loving virtue.

Salvation begins with a spark of discovery - of love - then continues into an experience. The "love of God" is a catalyst that makes that experience move along faster from the moment that spark happens.

For some people, that spark is "confessing Jesus as their Lord and Saviour" as Christians do (since it makes them - SOME of them - reflect on true love as a gift from God - and makes them want to apply it to fellow man) but that spark is not enough (even Jesus never mentioned confessing trust in his sacrifice as the final requirement for salvation - besides saying the prerequisite that he would be lifted up like Moses' snake for people's sins - please correct me if I am wrong - he actually said its not all who call him Lord that are his own people) which is why the same Christians are yet told to work out their salvation with fear and trembling.

A Muslim might receive such an enlightenment spark while doing one of his 5 required pillars of faith and suddenly finding out the secret truth that may escape many other Muslims - those pillars are symbolic - and stumbling upon this symbolism he finds a spark of salvation that leads him on a brand new journey - still in Islam - but now on the way to assured salvation.

For an Eastern mystic, it might be a moment of meditation which enlightens them about a duty of love to fellow man.

For others, it might be a neighbor's kind gesture - clothes or food when you were in need - the giver was undergoing salvation and you were in their path to help them get there - it is like using a candle to light another candle - both now have the light but the first one didnt lose anything. Whatever the spark was, from whatever religion, grow the spark and experience the journey of salvation.

Dulcet7:

Religion is like various means of transport to explore a land. Some people have horses, other have trains, planes, cars, others are strolling on foot, some are jogging. When you are travelling to a destination and the destination matters, then speed or transport method will matter. But when you need to explore, you can go slowly or speed thru - your means of transport does not matter - everyone has a chance to enjoy the exploration one way or the other. It is not how fast you get there - in fact there is no "there" to go to in the experience of salvation - it is the experience itself that counts - so this is why I said on another thread that there is no RIGHT religion and there is no WRONG religion. All we have are right hearts and wrong hearts. Compassionate hearts that predominantly love inside out and selfish hearts that are predominantly wicked inside out. Some religions create fanatics out of people and they start focusing on the religion rather than their salvation within [/i]the religion - which is the most paramount thing. One should never allow his or her views on religion to harm another person or distract or destroy their own walk of salvation.

People say - I was born into this religion and they have some wicked doctrines so I dont have a choice, I have to be like them - but this is not true! People are born into Nigeria every day and some of them manage to distinguish themselves worldwide that the world does not see them first as "one of those corrupt Nigerians" but rather as Nigerian citizens worthy of emulation. And if the person is not satsfied, he/she can always nationalize to another country. So you see, salvation is a re-orientation of the soul from focusing on the selfish desires to the loving inner man.

The journey called Salvation means an exemption. Exemption from what? From [i]wickedness. Wickedness is the only form of evil that exists. It manifests in various shades: greed, jealousy, hatred, envy, pride - all boil down to wickedness and the only cure to all of them is love - when applied to the person from inside-out till salvation begins in that person too.

JeSoul:

Lemme just say that I am thrilled with this discussion.

Dulcet I want to thank you for the time and heart that you've invested so far, as you can see it is already bearing some good fruit. I hope I have not bitten off more than I can chew though

  I read this quote 3 times. I cannot tell you how much this blesses me at this particular point in my walk. It must have been the spirit that nugded me to reach out to you because this blesses me immensely. Thank you so much.

I do however have questions on the above, but I will get to them in the subsequent posts. . .

Dulcet7:

Salvation is progressing when the person gets more exempted from wickedness. This does not mean wickedness does not flow [/b]from outside-in, but it doesnt [b]flow [/b]from inside-out. [b]Flow [/b]meaning a consistent and continuous pattern. Outside-in e.g. "bad things" happening in the world to "good people"; "Inside-out" e.g. thoughts, intentions and actions that are not in line with love. Your outside-in experience of wickedness is someone else's inside-out manifestation of wickedness. It is outside-in because it comes from the outside of your heart and attempts to harden your heart against love and become wicked like it.

[b]God's concern is not in the outward actions of people but in their inner world, the impulses that lead to those actions. God's concern is the heart of a man and not his/her religion. It is the impulses coming from inside-out that comprise aspects of his salvation and that is what God wants to know about.

During salvation, wickedness in the heart is continuously replaced by love and there will always be traces of wickedness left but the love will cover it up unless the person deliberately decides to frustrate his own salvation by emphasizing the wickedness. Wickedness is like poison - just a little in a heart filled with love - if emphasized upon - can ruin the entire heart.

Dulcet7:

If you recall in school - if you studied or are studying in the sciences - when you write a paper there are "method marks" and there is the final "answer mark"? So in mathematics if you dubbed the answer its easy to know because your method is inconsistent? Also, you may get the wrong final answer [/b]but your [b]methods [/b]will still get you an A?

[b]I believe in religion there is no answer mark. There are only method marks - and these marks are evaluated by the one who set the "exams" - God the creator and original designer - and your salvation is being marked each day of your life - judgment day is every day - and just like how students defend their thesis at the end of their course before a board of professors - someday we will be ready to receive our "degrees" for everything in this life and we will all explain our choices and the reasons why we used whatever methods we used in our walk of salvation.

That's all for now, madam Jesoul. I hope it is sufficient?

JeSoul:

. . . there is no right or wrong religion, there are right or wrong hearts.
^A very heavy statement.

JeSoul:

-I'd like to go a little deeper and ask you specifically about the teachings or tenets or beliefs or practices of a religion. In your view, where do these fit in in the big picture?

-And as a side note/question, what is your take on the inherence of sinfulness in man? that we are born sinful.

-Furthermore, the bible teaches that our hearts are deceptive and it is possible for our consciences to become corrupt or be cut off entirely. For people in such predicaments, how can their "heart" lead them aright if it is wrong/corrupt?

Salvation is not an event, it is a discovery, an experience that spans time. It is a journey that reunites man with purpose: [size=13pt]and this purpose is to jumpstart his fellow man on the road to their own salvation[/size]. The journey is a discovery of love - becoming a love filled individual, a true paragon of loving virtue.

JeSoul:

Once you've had the time to address the couple questions above, I'd like to continue on the route Joagbaje started, on the "physical" man of Jesus. I'd like to understand any deficiencies or concern you may have with the literal interpretation of the biblical narrative of Jesus as a man on earth. Thanks!

Dulcet7:

Yes Ma'am. This is my persuasion and belief.
I spoke about religions being akin to means of transportation in the journey of salvation. Each means of transportation has its own risks, merits and demerits but whatever the means you take - there is an experience in which you are allowed to grow (in love towards salvation).

The teachings, tenets, beliefs and practices of each religion are what makes the religion what it is, the same way jet fuel cannot be fed to a horse. In a journey of salvation, imagine A chooses a train, B chooses a jet and C chooses a horse. The jet may be fastest, the train may be slow and the horse-rider may enjoy more scenery and freedom to explore; but if a heavy thunderstorm befalls them - the jet might crash because of visibility, the horse and its rider will be heavily drenched but the rusty old train will plod along safely till the storm clears. In other conditions, another means of transport may seem to be better but it goes to show: no means of transport is perfectly right or perfectly wrong.
I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favor to men of skill; but time and chance happens to them all. - Ecclesiastes 9:11
You may have noticed I love quoting the Bible. I find a lot of wisdom in it.

The teachings, tenets, beliefs and practices of each religion are unique to that religion - and they are an integral part of the religion. I will go further to say in my understanding, none of them are right or wrong either. It is their application [/b]by a human being that will tend towards either love (holiness) or wickedness (i.e. sin).

This is because the teachings, tenets, beliefs and practices of a religion are [size=13pt][b]AMPLIFIERS [/size]for that religion. They will simply [b]increase [/b]whatever is already in the man's heart to do within their walk of love or wickedness. In addition, these [b]amplifiers [/b]are often controlled by people in that religion who have chosen to use the common man in that religion as a pawn - if they are not able to discern for themselves. I will not list examples but this is glaring in today's experiences among many major religions ~ perversions of teachings and practices to deploy and finance personal ambitions and political outlooks. The common man is often ignorant of this.
Yes I believe we are born sinful and we walk towards salvation as we grow in love. Man is naturally selfish, greedy and wicked ~ even if he is not taught as a child ~ but sin is part of the plan - it is the starting point ~ and gradually towards salvation, the heart is emptied of all that wickedness and replaced with love.

This, I believe is true. Their hearts can never lead them aright but it is not an irreversible thing (which is why our duty and purpose is to help them in love).

Many people have lost their consciences and the discernments of their hearts. Such ones who have become corrupt are essentially walking in perpetual wickedness and their hearts cannot lead them aright. That will be like the dead candle I illustrated earlier ~ it will need to be lighted by a living flame on another candle.

This very point that you have pointed out is the secondary reason for the walk of salvation ~ you will be compelled to reach out to those walking in perpetual wickedness i.e. inside-out (i.e. they have wrong hearts hardened against conscience and it had colored their lives and actions) or else experiencing wickedness i.e. outside-in (these are they that are victims of an act of wickedness or a lack of love of another human: abandoned widows and orphans with no relative or good neighbour to cater for them; the poor, the hungry or socially disadvantaged; the robbed traveller on the way from Jerusalem to Jericho ~ saved by the Good Samaritan, etc)

I said and quote:
The journey of salvation discovers love for you as you advance, and also compels you to jumpstart a fellow man on his own road to discovery, and to help others who are (ahead or behind you) in this journey of salvation ~ no matter their religion.

JeSoul:

-So you believe that they are advantages and disadvantages to every religion. What are your thoughts on the bible's claim to a monopoly on the truth?

JeSoul:

About the purpose of Jesus' death, and about His great commission to spread His gospel of death and resurrection and convert as many as possible?

JeSoul:

if all religions have merit, why would Jesus command to convert to His "religion"? (I know you're not a christian but please indulge me )

JeSoul:

-Do you believe in the existence of a devil? the personifcation of evil? or do you think evil is simply the sin manifested in our wicked actions?

JeSoul:

-Do you think a teaching/tenet/belief/practice of a religion can itself be wrong? and not necessarily be based on how it is applied? If a belief teaches

JeSoul:

-Would you say the ultimate goal of ex. christianity is the same as islam? how so?

[b]I believe teaching/tenet/belief/practice may be referred to as doctrine and yes I concede it is possible ~ absolutely speaking ~ for a doctrine to be wrong. This is because doctrines are dynamic in nature ~ ever changing ~ and whoever is the pointman of change can manipulate the doctrine to their taste. At that state, the doctrine is not much more different from the heart of that pointman. When I first said doctrines are not right or wrong, I confess I wasn't considering it absolutely.

I believe religious doctrines are of three types:

•the exoteric (commonly known) doctrines on relating with God
•the exoteric doctrines on laws, principles and conduct among men
•the esoteric (hidden) doctrines

In each category it is possible for a man who has been placed in a key position to manipulate the religious adherents into unknowingly satisfying esoteric (secret) doctrines that he believes in by making them engage in some exoteric practices that have been extrapolated - or else to advance some personal vendetta. So the masses move along like pawns in a war front. [/b]

I believe the ultimate goal of mankind is to reunite with purpose of walking in love, whether its Christians or Muslims. I have not once read where Jesus condemned a religion or another. Rather he condemned wrong motives and intentions, wrong hearts and deceptive manoeuvres.