Enigma:

Thanks to Enigma too

My bad

Thanks Enigma!

Demain_man:

Don't 'obey' God. 'Do' God instead''

These are not only pastors but also 'grammatical grammarians' too

I see members of cec 'doing' their pastors in the near future. . . , . . . with 12 gauge pump action shotgun . . . . . . for the years of deceit/exploitation

@NLMediator

Yep, balance is important --- but this thread has been about more than balance.

Most of us challenging Oyaks and Joagbaje accept that some of God's blessings are unconditional --- moreso for the Christian and even some for non-Christians. I said that much in my very first post on this thread (and even repeated it later).

There are two main bones of contention on the thread:
1. The suggestion that obeying God does not bring any blessing
2. The statement (really, the lie) that "nowhere in the Bible are we told to obey God , .

What really interests me is that Joagbaje and cohorts have gone into hiding as usual - talk about Jesus & satan at the temptation - they have left this thread for a season now they find feet in mouth.

But we are assured - Jo'll be back and will re-commence preaching the EXACT same drivel - proving he is delibarately spreading falsehood

Enigma:

@NLMediator

Yep, balance is important --- but this thread has been about more than balance.

Most of us challenging Oyaks and Joagbaje accept that some of God's blessings are unconditional --- moreso for the Christian and even some for non-Christians. I said that much in my very first post on this thread (and even repeated it later).

There are two main bones of contention on the thread:
1. The suggestion that obeying God does not bring any blessing
2. The statement (really, the lie) that "nowhere in the Bible are we told to obey God , .

Correct. Point well taken. I learnt some good stuff from this thread, especially from you.

Thanks a lot nlMediator. Hopefully, all of us can learn something from these threads --- actually even from the "other" side. It is not as though everything that the CEC people are saying is untrue ---- the problem is that the poison that has been infused ultimately destroys or nullifies or makes impalatable unpalatable the little bits of truth in their position.

I hope for example that people from the CEC side will look into what we are saying and see if they (in particular by supporting that Oyaks' statement) have taken things too far. Actually, there are some of them that I like --- in particular, to be honest, I have always had a soft spot for nuella2 from my very first interaction with her on this Board.

For the sake of people like her, we need to make these arguments and try to keep things simple; due to the arrogance of the likes of Joagbaje and quite a few others of them (including Oyaks himself), we have to put them in their place which means we too sometimes sound arrogant or harsh.

For the sake of the likes of nuella2 especially, consider the following:

1. When Oyakhilome says "nowhere in the New Testament are we told to obey God", compare that to what Peter said in Acts 5:29 that "We must obey God rather than men! as well as all the other barrage from scripture that are given on this very thread.


2. If you argue that we should not use "obey god" because it sounds like fear ----- what about Jesus? Jesus said He obeyed the Father! Did Jesus obey the Father because of fear? Or did Jesus not make clear that His obedience to the Father was a demonstration of love?

Let us start with Romans 5:19 (misused as ever by Oyaks)

For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

So we see that Jesus too obeyed; He too obeyed God! If Jesus obeyed God, why would his followers worry about using the word "obey" for following God, keeping God's commands or even "doing God's word"? (PS that Jesus has "obeyed" does not mean that Christians do not have any need to "obey" as Oyakhilome suggests falsely ---- it is just that the acts of obedience required of the Christian are not of the same magnitude as the act of obedience of Jesus in His sacrificial death)

Second, we can see readily from scripture that Jesus obeyed not out of fear but out of love; for example He says in John 15:9 that "as the Father has loved Me so have I loved you". Does that sound like someone who obeyed His Father out of fear or rather out of love? On top of that He Himself (and the apostles) taught clearly that to love God is to obey Him and to obey God is to love Him

For this, it is worth repeating the passages below:

John 14:21

Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him."

John 14:23

Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.

1 John 2:3

We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands.

1 John 2:5

But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him

2 John 1:6

And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love.

So the suggestion not to use "obey God" but instead "do the word" {of God, really?} is utterly baseless. As I have said before the whole "do the word" thing is to mislead people into doing empty and useless rituals. Further, something I didn't say before, it is underpinned by another lie that people are "Gods"; it is the idea that people are "Gods" that supports the further lie to them that they can "speak things into existence" etc


2. Whether keeping, indeed obeying God's commands leads to blessings. Well, why don't we start with the words of Jesus Christ Himself in Luke 11:28

“Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it.”

Well, if you tell me that you would rather choose the contradictory lies of Oyakhilome to the words of Jesus Christ Himself . . . .


EDIT: we can also add James 1:25 But the man who looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues to do this, not forgetting what he has heard, but doing it—he will be blessed in what he does.

The difficulty that people have of accepting that obeying God leads to blessing is that they see "blessing" only in material terms like cash, kudi owo, eego, money; wives; cars; houses; designer clothes; children; getting admitted into university/"higher institution"; having fame and public adulation etc etc

Well, while God does give material blessings (not necessarily encompassing greed or even every aspiration or desire), what about spiritual blessings. And often obedience to God brings about spiritual blessings. From a fleshly point of view --- focus is on material blessings (and this is where the prosperity "gospel" is a gospel of the flesh i.e. a false gospel) ---- whereas from the biblical, and especially New Testament, point of view the spiritual blessings are of primary and far greater importance than material blessings.

Enigma:

Thanks a lot nlMediator. Hopefully, all of us can learn something from these threads --- actually even from the "other" side. It is not as though everything that the CEC people are saying is untrue ---- the problem is that the poison that has been infused ultimately destroys or nullifies or makes impalatable the little bits of truth in their position.

I hope for example that people from the CEC side will look into what we are saying and see if they (in particular by supporting that Oyaks' statement) have taken things too far. Actually, there are some of them that I like --- in particular, to be honest, I have always had a soft spot for nuella2 from my very first interaction with her on this Board.

For the sake of people like her, we need to make these arguments and try to keep things simple; due to the arrogance of the likes of Joagbaje and quite a few others of them (including Oyaks himself), we have to put them in their place which means we too sometimes sound arrogant or harsh.

Thanks. A few points in response.

1. I agree that we all should be able to learn from these threads. Nobody knows it all. I just wish that folks would be open to learning, without necessarily allowing themselves to be misled. That’s why we have the Holy Spirit and the Word.

2. I don’t really see things from one side or “the other side”. Becoming a christian was such a big deal for me that I was so happy to belong to this wonderful family. Because of that, I like to see every child of God as my brother and sister, regardless of denominational affiliation. Sometimes, I lose sight of this fact, but I feel more comfortable treating everyone with love and respect.

3. Although I don’t think I’ve mentioned any church by name here, I believe there’s a lot of good things to say about Christ Embassy. Their zeal for evangelism, interest in studying the Word, desire to showcase the beauty of the Lord are all things I admire. Even though I think they go overboard sometimes or spend too much money to accomplish what they want, including soul winning. Some of the finest Christians I know are Christ Embassy members.

4. That said, I may not always agree with everything they say or how they go about it. I wish they can relax a little and see that they do not have all knowledge. It’s like when the church charged a gate fee for end of year service. As many of their objective members can tell, they knew it was not the right approach. That alone is enough to convince them that anybody can make mistakes and nobody needs to be followed blindly.

5. I encourage all of us to walk in love and see each other as brethren. Most of the times, the things that divide Christians are very simple things or the language chosen or approach adopted. Deep inside, you find there was no major disagreement. Even on this issue of obedience, there’s much more agreement than it appears, e.g., if we take away the idea that obedience always stems from fear. I think that sometimes churches engage in this semantic warfare to distinguish themselves and give members reasons not to stray to a ‘rival’ church.

^^^ I hear what you say but I'm afraid, "nowhere in the New Testament are we told to obey God . . . " is more than mere semantics. 

@enigma

Enigma:

1. When Oyakhilome says "nowhere in the New Testament are we told to obey God", compare that to what Peter said in Acts 5:29 that "We must obey God rather than men! as well as all the other barrage from scripture that are given on this very thread.


2. If you argue that we should not use "obey god" because it sounds like fear ----- what about Jesus? Jesus said He obeyed the Father! Did Jesus obey the Father because of fear? Or did Jesus not make clear that His obedience to the Father was a demonstration of love?

Let us start with Romans 5:19 (misused as ever by Oyaks)
So we see that Jesus too obeyed; He too obeyed God! If Jesus obeyed God, why would his followers worry about using the word "obey" for following God, keeping God's commands or even "doing God's word"? (PS that Jesus has "obeyed" does not mean that Christians do not have any need to "obey" as Oyakhilome suggests falsely ---- it is just that the acts of obedience required of the Christian are not of the same magnitude as the act of obedience of Jesus in His sacrificial death)

You are the one trying to use your skill to confuse us on imple statements . I asked you what are the christian commandments for us to obey? You didn't answer rather you went on and on twisting everything.

@nlModerator
You made a whole lot of sense but l'll like to highlight the point of the Holy Spirit being the ultimate teacher whome the Jesus calls "THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH"
John 16:13
"Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guild you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come"

All this aguaments won't do any good

Joagbaje:

@enigma

You are the one trying to use your skill to confuse us on imple statements . I asked you what are the christian commandments for us to obey? You didn't answer rather you went on and on twisting everything.

My brother, don't you think you're adding to the lack of clarity? You spent some time convincing us that christians are called to obey, in order to receive blessings (fruits), but not the blessing(grace) . What was it they're expected to obey? Don't you think both of you are saying the same thing about obedience being a pre-condition to receiving blessings like long life, prosperity, etc?

Enigma:

^^^ I hear what you say but I'm afraid, "nowhere in the New Testament are we told to obey God . . . " is more than mere semantics.

You may be right that it's not semantic but their own way of equating themselves with God, in which case they need not obey Him or pray to Him but can have what they have by their own abilities, including by making declarations. But I choose to give them - any christian - the benefit of doubt, until I hear direct, definitive statements to the contrary. Or maybe naivete is my problem?

The Commandment of Christians is Love. Love God, Love your fellows.

^^^^
That's what we are driving at. Love is a nature. That's who we are. Is a dog barking by commandments or following a law? There is already a law at work in his nature that makes it bark. Love is our nature. It is a law at work in the christian . It is not a commandment but our nature. We give it expression.

Joagbaje:

@enigma

You are the one trying to use your skill to confuse us on imple statements . I asked you what are the christian commandments for us to obey? You didn't answer rather you went on and on twisting everything.

Which commandment/s do you know of in the New Testament. More importantly, if you identify any commandment in the New Testament --- are you or are you not told or required to "obey" it?

Afterall you are a pastor, a whole state pastor for that matter! is that one something too difficult for you to check in the New Testament.

I even gave you a clue in post #126, I told you to ask your "friend" Paul! Ok, out of the goodness of my heart, I'll give you one more clue: when asking Paul, look in the book of Romans somewhere!

Joagbaje:

^^^^
That's what we are driving at. Love is a nature. That's who we are. Is a dog barking by commandments or following a law? There is already a law at work in his nature that makes it bark. Love is our nature. It is a law at work in the christian . It is not a commandment but our nature. We give it expression.

Yeah right! That is why Jesus Christ called it a commandment; that is why Paul called it a commandment.

Anyway, when you first find the passage in Romans, we can talk.

nlMediator:

My brother, don't you think you're adding to the lack of clarity? You spent some time convincing us that christians are called to obey  in order to receive blessings, (fruits), but not the blessing(grace) . What was it they're expected to obey? Don't you think both of you are saying the same thing about obedience being a pre-condition to receiving blessings like long life, prosperity, etc?

I would have prefer you quote the post so that we don't misunderstand one another. My point is that we have been blessed already unconditionally in christ on the account of his obedience. Which is his death.

It's like i come to the dinning table, the food won't jump into my mouth . I need to serve myself and not only that, I need to put the food in my mouth.

It's like you put money into my account. I need to write a cheque. And make withdrawal. My writing cheque and withdrawal has nothing to do with you any longer but ,everything now depends on me.

My deed of faith will cause an outflow of the power through me. Because the blessing is in me. I have to create favourable circumstance to manifest it.  That is faith. Or deed of faith.

^^^

From Post # 66:
“The will of God may not always come to pass if we don't do our part .That's where giving, living godly life, obedience, faith etc all come in.”

From Post # 74:
‘Don't mix up the context. The Israelites have to obey God to bless them. Jesus has obeyed on our behalf, we are blessed already . So we are not obeying any law to be blessed. But that doesn't take obedience out of our dictionary.it depend on the context.   When the Holy spirit told paul not to go to Asia  did paul not obey? . It's a different context. Yieldedness to Gods spirit is obedience to his leasership. But paul himself said " I was not disobedient to that heavenly calling"’

In addition, you’ve made other statements like “when we sow into pastors’ lives, we reap.” Such statements are based on your understanding of scriptures such as Gal. 6. If you’re following what those scriptures say, are you not obeying the instructions contained in the scriptures?

I really do not see the point in insisting that you’re not obeying, when you are. Saying that you’re acting out your nature does not change the fact that you’re obeying. It just means that your nature enables you to obey. Look at Paul’s example that you gave above. Why is it obedience to the Holy Spirit in the case of Paul but not obedience when we do it? Couldn’t Paul have said that he was acting out his nature of love? You also ask about commandments. Isn’t everything God tells us to do a commandment, including sowing, preaching, honoring our parents? Must the C word be used before we know it is a commandment?

love is our nature so we need to "obey the law of nature" for in this case,this law,as natural as it is can be broken/disobeyed, eventhough i reason with nlmediator about the semantics view,i still believe many of this modernist(like saducess) err for they know not (in the real sense of its rhema & power) the scripture. Tryin to make christianity look simple(how simpler can it be when our "lord"(not our boy) Jesus opened the bracket to tell us that lust equal adultery and hatred is like murder so he advice that we like by the golden rule matt 7:12, we've gat to obey (2 cor 10:6), if anyone claims to know better,let them verify my view first and read my post on the first page. Weldone enigma!them verify my view first and read my post on the first page. Weldone enigma!, good work nlmediator,thou art a peace maker!

Joagbaje:

That's what we are driving at. Love is a nature. That's who we are . Is a dog barking by commandments or following a law? There is already a law at work in his nature that makes it bark. Love is our nature. It is a law at work in the christian . It is not a commandment but our nature. We give it expression.

You don't have love as your nature sir, if you do, there will be no need for prosperity casino gospel. Pastor will not spend so much time manipulating the congregation, trying to get them to give Oyak should stop deceiving the congregation

Joagbaje:

what are the christian commandments for us to obey?

As always you display your ignorance of Christ's words:

(John 13:34 [KJV])
A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

(1John 4:21 [KJV])
And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.

I suppose these verses are missing from your version of the bible. The reason you miss these rather simple and obvious words is that you are operating and walking in the flesh and in your hubris confusing that with being spiritual. You better repent.

Joagbaje:

My deed of faith will cause an outflow of the power through me. Because the blessing is in me. I have to create favourable circumstance to manifest it.  That is faith. Or deed of faith.

What's deed of faith is that another word for works or obedience

nlMediator:

^^^

From Post # 66:
“The will of God may not always come to pass if we don't do our part .That's where giving, living godly life, obedience, faith etc all come in.”

From Post # 74:
‘Don't mix up the context. The Israelites have to obey God to bless them. Jesus has obeyed on our behalf, we are blessed already . So we are not obeying any law to be blessed. But that doesn't take obedience out of our dictionary.it depend on the context.   When the Holy spirit told paul not to go to Asia  did paul not obey? .

Don't mind Jo jare the man is just running in circles. I see all this as pastoral innovation, it's design to make the congregation feel special, gets them excited and hopefully, encourage them to give to the pastor I don't see any spiritual value here i.e. it's not meant to make them better Christians

Pastor Joe, Why not just go back to ur church somewhere and continue to count your tithe money since that is the only commandment you 'obey' and leave the rest of us obey that which we want to obey. Abi na by force?

Through collecting tithe you are now rich beyond your wildest imagination. Thank the 'god' of money for ur life sir.

Every one of your post i read here keeps showing you up as one of those pastors. Monetary riches AKA tithe = Na me 'god' love pass.

On the last day we go no who is who. You better reverse ur steps now and start obeying the God almighty. Forsake this 'god' of your stomach.

aletheia:

Joagbaje link=topic=704762.msg8689890#msg8689890 date=1310322412:
what are the christian commandments for us to obey?

(John 13:34 [KJV])
A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

(1John 4:21 [KJV])
And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.

I suppose these verses are missing from your version of the bible. The reason you miss these rather simple and obvious words is that you are operating and walking in the flesh and in your hubris confusing that with being spiritual. You better repent.

^^^ Of course it is all over the New Testament but there is none so blind as those who refuse to see. OK since he seems to need help let's show him further and if he still refuses to see . . . .

1. Jesus said

John 13:34 (already posted by aletheia)

A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another.

John 15:12

This is My commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you.

2. Apostles said

1 John 3:23

And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.

1 John 5:3

For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.

2 John 1:6  

This is love, that we walk according to His commandments. This is the commandment, that as you have heard from the beginning, you should walk in it.

1 John 4:21

And this commandment we have from Him: that he who loves God must love his brother also.

Galatians 5:14

For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: " You shall [/b]love your neighbor as yourself."

Romans 13:9-10  

9 [b]For the commandments, "You shall not commit adultery," "You shall not murder," "You shall not steal," "You shall not bear false witness," "You shall not covet," and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."
10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

So we see Jesus Christ Himself and His apostles telling us that there is and we (Christians) have a new commandment and we must keep/obey it. Then we have these people with "greater truths" telling us "it is not a commandment" and that "nowhere in the New Testament are we told to obey God".  Oh such a big big big dilemma as to who to believe now, isn't it?

Meanwhile if someone says that the Ten Commandments are now irrelevant, point them to that last passage from Romans and ask for their own judgment of its meaning and application.

^More:
(John 14:15 [KJV])
If ye love me, keep my commandments.

(John 14:21 [KJV])
He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

(John 14:23 [KJV])
Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

(John 14:24 [KJV])
He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

(John 15:10 [KJV])
If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.


This last verse even shows a conditional if ye keep my commandments. . .

Jo is a classic case of. . .For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. (2 Tim 4:3-4)

What hogwash by Chris Oyaks. . ."Nowhere in the New Testament are we told to obey God"

God is really using joagbaje to expose Oyaks for the fraud and charlatan that he is on this forum.

aletheia:

^More:
(John 14:15 [KJV])
If ye love me, keep my commandments.

(John 14:21 [KJV])
He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

(John 14:23 [KJV])
Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

(John 14:24 [KJV])
He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

(John 15:10 [KJV])
If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.


This last verse even shows a conditional if ye keep my commandments. . .

Jo is a classic case of. . .For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. (2 Tim 4:3-4)

What hogwash by Chris Oyaks. . ."Nowhere in the New Testament are we told to obey God"

New testament began after Jesus death dude. Is that What did they teach u in your church? Oh sorry I forgot you are one of the sheep without a shepherd how sad.

^^^ Well my people, I warned about the above in my very first post on this thread. Now he is saying, as he has done before, that those words of Jesus do not apply to Christians. Well we Christians, as followers of Jesus Christ, recognise those words as His commandments for us. We are willing to accept that they do not apply to those so-called "Gods"!

Enigma:
However, even worse than this, expect some of them to come and tell us that {edit, the} words of Jesus do not matter for Christians because "Jesus did not function in the New Testament."

@all
There are no laws and commandments for the church to be obeying. If you have references to them pls name them.
1. Thou shall ,

Joagbaje:

@all
There are no laws and commandments for the church to be obeying. If you have references to them pls name them.
1. Thou shall ,

nlMediator, what do you think?

So that's what all these "my people campaingn" of yours about ? To initiate NLmediator into your clique.

nlMediator:

^^^

From Post # 66:
“The will of God may not always come to pass if we don't do our part .That's where giving, living godly life, obedience, faith etc all come in.”

From Post # 74:
‘Don't mix up the context. The Israelites have to obey God to bless them. Jesus has obeyed on our behalf, we are blessed already . So we are not obeying any law to be blessed. But that doesn't take obedience out of our dictionary.it depend on the context.   When the Holy spirit told paul not to go to Asia  did paul not obey? . It's a different context. Yieldedness to Gods spirit is obedience to his leasership. But paul himself said " I was not disobedient to that heavenly calling"’

In addition, you’ve made other statements like “when we sow into pastors’ lives, we reap.” Such statements are based on your understanding of scriptures such as Gal. 6. If you’re following what those scriptures say, are you not obeying the instructions contained in the scriptures?

I really do not see the point in insisting that you’re not obeying, when you are. Saying that you’re acting out your nature does not change the fact that you’re obeying. It just means that your nature enables you to obey. Look at Paul’s example that you gave above. Why is it obedience to the Holy Spirit in the case of Paul but not obedience when we do it? Couldn’t Paul have said that he was acting out his nature of love? You also ask about commandments. Isn’t everything God tells us to do a commandment, including sowing, preaching, honoring our parents? Must the C word be used before we know it is a commandment?

Ok I get your point. This is an issue of semantics.  Different uses of a word. Consider the context of the post. I'm talking in terms of old testament obedience to commandment. God deals with us through a love relationship . We love the brethren . Nit as a command . It's a revelation.