@babs787,

babs787:

@pilgrims

I have been to the links but nowhere did you provide answers to my five questions.

What don't you understand in the replies you read?

babs787:

Please where did Muslims abuse God, let me have it.

(https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=84252.msg1640301#msg1640301)

Let me know what you failed to see there.

Cheers.

@pilgrims


My friends here are even laughing at your denials and the way you have been avoiding questions

(https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=84252.msg1640301#msg1640301)

Let me know what you failed to see there.

I have been there and did not see where you proferred answers to my five questions

1. Has the holy spirit not been in existence.

2. Is Jesus a comforter

3. Can holy spirit replaces human being

4. How many spirits would we be having since one is already in existence.

Let me stop there. So provide answers to my questions above.

@pilgrims



My friends here are even laughing at your denials and the way you have been avoiding questions

(https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=84252.msg1640301#msg1640301)

Let me know what you failed to see there.

I have been there and did not see where you proferred answers to my five questions

1. Has the holy spirit not been in existence.

2. Is Jesus a comforter

3. Can holy spirit replaces human being

4. How many spirits would we be having since one is already in existence.

Let me stop there. So provide answers to my questions above.

@babs787,

What don't you understand in the replies you read?

(https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=84252.msg1640301#msg1640301)

Let me know what you failed to see there.


Whether you suddenly can longer understand simple English is not going to upgrade your dishonesty. You have said absolutely nothing to the query of John 14:16 and 26 -- and you're now playing up for time endlessly repeating yourself. And that kind of demented game is what you call Islam that has become Noah's flood! I hear!

@Pligrim: Please write down the John 14 verses 16 and 26. Then give us your analysis of it, directly from the Bible without any subjective opinion of your own Tell us who the speak of your analytical materials may be.

From there we come to so agreement and discussion, therein. Please dont give me Paul's material since it will stand no chance with me. You already know how we feel about him, going against the grain of set rules and commandments of master Jesus the son of Mary.

@Olabowale,

olabowale:

@Pligrim: Please write down the John 14 verses 16 and 26. Then give us your analysis of it, directly from the Bible without any subjective opinion of your own Tell us who the speak of your analytical materials may be.

I wonder why you guys are avoiding the thread I opened to take up your challenges on the very subject of John 14 through 16 as regards the Comforter being the Holy Spirit. What is so wrong with asking our Muslim friends to please take their worries on this subject to the appropriate thread?

Now the present one above, please see the following:

(https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-84252.288.html#msg1648151)
(https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-84252.288.html#msg1648156)

Anyhow, like I said in replying you in one other thread on the same issue: I'll be taking further enquiries to the same thread I opened for such. Fair enough? Yep.

olabowale:

From there we come to so agreement and discussion, therein. Please don't give me Paul's material since it will stand no chance with me.

I'm sorry; but if that is your attitude to objective and balanced discussion, I'd have to let you know upfront that I have a disdain for people who have such barbaric hatred towards Paul. If his epistles stand no chance with you, neither does Muhammad's materials stand any chance with pilgrim.1 - fair enough?

You cannot hope to enter a discussion with a narrow mindset and hope to get anywhere. Keep your hatred for Paul well locked up in the sewer before asking me to analize anything with you. The moment you have made up your mind not to even consider the evidence before you because of your hate for Pauline writings, you only bring a duplicity that is most hideous to the table.

Olabowale, please keep your prejudices - it's uncalled for; and any attempt in future to even slightly suggest it again from you, will be very strongly refuted.

olabowale:

You already know how we feel about him, going against the grain of set rules and commandments of master Jesus the son of Mary.

I don't see how you can refer to the Son of God as "Master Jesus" (a true confession of John 13:13) and then at the same time have such prejudiced hatred for anyone - Paul included. You may not agree with his epistles; but Christians do - and Muslims MUST respect that as a legitimate part of our Faith. Failing to do so, is at the same time creating a very strong reason why Islam continues to put us off!

Regards.

@Pligrim.1:Archbishop, (no i cannot call you Pope, because you revere him too much). You are not taking after Jesus you claim to be your Lord and Savior! Your attitude is contrary to what I read about him in the Bible! You do not know me and there is no point for your arrogance! Since Paul was not a prophet and his input in the Bible is quite contrary to what Jesus said, in the same Bible, I now ask you, who should I believe, Jesus, son of Mary, whos is also writenabout so clearly in the Qur'an, or Paul? Infact who should you believe and follow between the two? The choice is clear for me. Maybe in your case, its kinda muddy! But I cant help it if I love Jesus and revered him as he should be revered.


Jesus is not exclusive to you. You are not a Jew by heritage and neither am I. Even some Igbos who claim to be Jews should take proper advise from the Ethiopian Jews, in Palestine! Jesus was not a christian, didnt preach it and never started it and no churche was erected by him. I am not a christian, dont want to be one and I follow Jesus, in the same path which all the other prophets are on!

Respect baby. Respect. You dont just talk to your elders anyhow. Ai lora ogongo ki nse ka fi we tadi gberen ku. We've all been there. InshaAllah, you will get to where we are now. Age and demeanor, that it.

calm down and answer the questions. Omode gbon, agba gbon lafi da Ile Ife.

@olabowale,

I'll quickly walk through this one:

olabowale:

@Pligrim.1:Archbishop, (no i cannot call you Pope, because you revere him too much).

I don't revere the Pope - go read through my debates with Catholics in the catholic threads!

olabowale:

You are not taking after Jesus you claim to be your Lord and Savior! Your attitude is contrary to what I read about him in the Bible! You do not know me and there is no point for your arrogance!

I don't read whether Jesus's attitude was such as hatred for Paul - please if you find such a verse, let me see it posted by YOU.

olabowale:

Since Paul was not a prophet and his input in the Bible is quite contrary to what Jesus said, in the same Bible, I now ask you, who should I believe, Jesus, son of Mary, whos is also writenabout so clearly in the Qur'an, or Paul?

I will invite you to believe in the Biblical message. I don't believe Paul's message were contrary to the Gospels - although for lack of understanding of the entire Scriptures, people are bound to ignore so many things and find "contradictions" in Paul's statement. I remind Muslims especially who try to whip up such "contradisctions" that the very same way they interprete Paul's epistles will only bring out loads of controvery from the Qur'an and Hadiths - and thus discredit Islam hugely as a HOGWASH!

Of course, Muslims do not like to read such terms used for Islam. But my query is simply this: why then is it so easy for Muslims to deride Christians, the Bible and express such undiluted HATE for Paul? Are Muslims not being hypocritcal to try and discredit the Bible while still going to the same Bible to force Muhammad on its pages? What are you guys playing at?

Has it ever occured to you that NO Christian has ever tried to VALIDATE Christianity from the Qur'an or Hadiths?

WHY is it so hard for you guys to validate Muhammad's prophethood without trying to dribble him into the same Bible that you ridicule? Did Moses have to refer to the Qur'an before the Jews could attest to his prophethood?

Olabowale, you were wrong to even try to suggest such prejudice and hate - while even more shameful it really is for you to try and justify your HATE and PREJUDICE!! That is as illiterate as "illiteracy" can get!

And, oh yeah, the attitude of Master Jesus is NOT hypocrisy!

So, please don't try to solicite such hypocrisy from me!!

olabowale:

Infact who should you believe and follow between the two? The choice is clear for me. Maybe in your case, its kind of muddy! But I can't help it if I love Jesus and revered him as he should be revered.

You're such a laugh!

The issue for me is a clear and crystal one! I had done extensive research BEFORE I became a Christian; and my conviction was deep. I don't see how you have tried to debate issues intelligently - not that I'm trying to glory over your level of schooling. But olabowale, there's no level of educational qualification that can justify PREJUDICE!! You simply don't try to bring it up as a standard of evaluating issues.

If you were learned at any stretch, you will find statements in Islam that have been traced back to no other person that PAUL!! It's not my style to be too hasty (remmber Proverbs 29:20), and when the time comes in the course of our discussions, you will simply have to dal with such quotes!

olabowale:

Jesus is not exclusive to you. You are not a Jew by heritage and neither am I.

There we go again! Olabowale, you're simply wasting time!

Where have I ever claimed that Jesus was EXCLUSIVE to me?

Where have I ever tried to make out that my heritage is JEWISH?

What is bringing all these sidetalk and no-brainer attitude from you?

olabowale:

Even some Igbos who claim to be Jews should take proper advise from the Ethiopian Jews, in Palestine! Jesus was not a christian, didnt preach it and never started it and no churche was erected by him. I am not a christian, don't want to be one and I follow Jesus, in the same path which all the other prophets are on!

You know what? Trying to discredit and deny that the Church is actually birthed from the LIFE and MINISTRY of Jesus Christ, then you suddenly and immediately collapse the whole Muslim world as it is today!

You're one of those Muslims (such as I was) who likes to take a convenient hide-and-seek path of never seeking the truth and acknowledging it! NO Muslim today would claim that he or she does not belong to any of the more than 70 sectarian parties of Islam!! No Muslim can wave that gutter claim in my face! And the point would them be: Muhammad never founded any of them! Which immediately puts you outside the tenets and gambits of authentic Islam, with as many hyphenations as can possible be squeezed in on one pages!

Second, Muslim historical research is usually shoddy. For example, nobody in the Muslim world today can claim that they know exactly the history of Abraham building the KAA'BA and ever having been associated with the BLACK STONE!!

If you are that slow witted on historical anticedents and textual criticism, please save your prjudices and jokes and don't use them as the yardstick for intellectual engagements!

olabowale:

Respect baby. Respect. You don't just talk to your elders anyhow. Ai lora ogongo ki nse ka fi we tadi gberen ku. We've all been there. InshaAllah, you will get to where we are now. Age and demeanor, that it.

Okay, daddy, mo ti gbo!

Regards.

Before bringing Paul into the question and making false accusation against the apostle - another diversionary tactic - have you even considered that when Pilgrim.1 presented you with the words of Jesus, you have not even believed nor accepted them? Or has Jesus now ceased to be a "prophet" in Islam?

If you so love Jesus and revere Him, why haven't you accepted His Words as clearly stated in red in your bible and mentioned by pilgrim and i'd mention here again?

"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." John 14:26

@pilgrim,
Having read your reply to bros, my little mind is wondering how (inevitably) our friends will still ignore all the answers and come out dribbling from another corner to still refer to the same issue and complain that "it hasn't been answered". All in all, pretending that you never posted anything.
It's like a learned, professional skill. Amusing!! (Oh, i should have said; amazing!)

Anyways, trust u're enjoying your Sunday. Cheers.

@ricadelide,

Kai! The thing wey I dey save for another time is what you have brought out!

I usually like to take my time and give these folks the long stretch of time to tease themselves before finally bringing them round on the same things they try to deny! That's how I let babs787 (mrpataki's "blabbing machine" make a complete loony of himself - before reminding him of his assertive denials of John 14!

Anyhow, nothing spoil. I go just sidon dey look them until time reach!

_{Off to church now - finally.}  

@ricadelide,

Posted the previous before I saw yours.

ricadelide:

@pilgrim,
Having read your reply to bros, my little mind is wondering how (inevitably) our friends will still ignore all the answers and come out dribbling from another corner to still refer to the same issue and complain that "it hasn't been answered". All in all, pretending that you never posted anything.
It's like a learned, professional skill. Amusing!! (Oh, i should have said; amazing!)

Anyways, trust u're enjoying your Sunday. Cheers.

Lol. . . I no fit laugh!! By now, verybody on Nairaland has come to know our Muslim friends on that trademark! Topping the list of their gimmicks is the one you highlighted: "it hasn't been answered!" I am very familiar with such - because that is precisely the same thing that you will find with Muslim apologists all over the world!

For that very reason, I never let them distract me. After answering their questions, I know they will run to other threads and REPEAT the same thing; and when you go there and serve them a link to show that you ALREADY have addressed such questions, then they will run to yet another thread and litter it with the very same REPETITION!!

I've said it before: Islam is a huge HOGWASH - and anyone who wants to know Muslims for their duplicity can now see them bleached through and through!

My Sunday's been smooth. Decided to wait for afternoon/evening service. But my week is going to be so full (another paper coming up midweek - a walk-over actually).

Yours? Maximum blessings and enjoyment cover you!

@pilgrims

This is the verse again in which your brother ricadelide supplied.

"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." John 14:26

I dont know why you are arguing blindly when you know that the verse couldnt have been for holy spirit because it has been in existence and since you refused to admit that fact, here are additional facts and questions on same issue.

1. The only place in the Bible where the Paraclete was called the Holy Spirit is in John 14:26 "But the Paraclete, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you". What has the Holy Spirit brought or taught for the last 2000 years?

2.Christians say that the Paraclete means the Holy Spirit (John 14;26). Jesus said in John 16:7-8 "If I do not go away the Paraclete will not come to you". This could not mean the Holy spirit, since the Holy spirit was said to have been there before Jesus was even born as in Luke 1:41 "Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit". Here, the Holy spirit was also present during Jesus life time. So how could this fit with the condition that Jesus must go away so that the Holy spirit will come?  

3. In John 16:7-8, it says: "But if go, I will send him to you. And when he comes, he will convict the world of sins and of righteousness and of Judgment". What do "he" and "him" refer here? Don’t they refer to a man?

4. .Does the Holy Spirit talk to good Christians and bad Christians as well? Is the Holy spirit with them all the time or just at certain times? When does it start visiting a person who wants to become a Christian?

5. .How can you as a Christian tell if the Holy Spirit is inside another Christian? How come many Christians fooled people by claiming that the Holy spirit was inside them only to be converted to another religion later on ?

6. .Does the Holy Spirit dictate what Christians should do without choice or freedom at all or does it only guide them and they have the freedom to follow or not ?

7. .If the Holy Spirit dictates what Christian should do, why do Christians commit sins and make mistakes ? How can you explain the conversion to other religions and atheism of many Christians? Are they told to do that by the Holy Spirit?

8.If the Holy Spirit guides Christians only, and they are free to do what they want, then how do we know that the writers of the Gospels didn’t make mistakes in writing them?

9.If Christians believe that the Holy Spirit comes and talks to them everyday, why don’t they ask the Holy Spirit about which version of the Bible to follow since there are too many versions floating around?


Thanks, I may not be around for some days I do not know if I may be able to have connection where I am going but you will surely hear from me.

@pilgrim.1

there is a saying I have and it goes something like this: when devil dey waka come with im wahala give am chance. In the bible it is translated thus resist the devil and he will flee from you. So what if some dude come up with some conspiracy theory, its his brain to do as he sees fit. some times its best to let people ramble cos then you know what they are full of ( shit or intelligence). No matter the religious theories that have been put out there God has never been belittled in any way or form cos He always finds a way to put suckers in their place. Sometimes its best to let go and let God. Believe me pilgrim He can fight His battles Himself (hence the term "the battle is the Lord's". This is the reason why i chose not to engage the muslims cos long and short there is no need to.

@ pilgrim.1 by the way I AM A CHRISTIAN and what I wrote was aimed Don Maselo and Babs and in a way you not to give them room to keep talking before something more incredulous is said. Furthermore I AM NOT A HYPOCRITE and all the other beautiful words you used to describe me. cheerio

@babs787

when the cartoon of mohammed and the nuclear war head was printed you will recall that there was mass hysteria on the part of muslims and a lot of killings went on as a ripple effect. If you as muslims will not condone even the merest trifling with the name of the prophet mohammed why then should someone do that to God by stating that God condones some evil deed.

@babs787,

For all you have yapped on, I have just one line for you: you're a self-confessed stranger to simple truth.

babs787:

@pilgrims

This is the verse again in which your brother ricadelide supplied.

"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." John 14:26

I don't know why you are arguing blindly when you know that the verse couldnt have been for holy spirit because it has been in existence and since you refused to admit that fact, here are additional facts and questions on same issue.

1. The only place in the Bible where the Paraclete was called the Holy Spirit is in John 14:26 "But the Paraclete, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you". What has the Holy Spirit brought or taught for the last 2000 years?

2.Christians say that the Paraclete means the Holy Spirit (John 14;26). Jesus said in John 16:7-8 "If I do not go away the Paraclete will not come to you". This could not mean the Holy spirit, since the Holy spirit was said to have been there before Jesus was even born as in Luke 1:41 "Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit". Here, the Holy spirit was also present during Jesus life time. So how could this fit with the condition that Jesus must go away so that the Holy spirit will come?

If anyone sits down to read simply how you confuse yourself, they would certainly be amazed that there are folks who have eyes to see but would rather close their hearts to what's in front of them.

Before ricadelide reminded you of John 14:26, I had called your attention to it several times, for example:

(https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-14450.672.html#msg1645373)
(https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-14450.672.html#msg1645465)
(https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-14450.672.html#msg1646339)
(https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-14450.672.html#msg1646461)

You consistently refused to see it, and one would wonder what opened your eyes finally to it that you now pretended it had not been there all along! Even when Olabowale pointed it out to you, what did you do?

It's quite a pity that when you clearly see what the verse is saying (and another Muslim - Olabowale - could have seen and acknowledged it), you claimed that I was arguing blindly because you could predictably come back denying the fact of that verse by stating: "the verse couldnt have been for holy spirit".

The whole debate or discussion has never been about the existence of the Holy Spirit - and that was why I asked you a simple question: if you had been arguing to interprete that verse for Muhammad, then please let us know "if Muhammad has been in existence since the creation of heaven and earth!" Again, knowing that your answer would be a deafening "NO", you sculpted other excuses away from that question.

Babs787, those verses say what they said, and they mean what they said, and no Muslim (whether born, dead, or yet to be born) could come back denying that the verses clearly identified the Comforter (the Paraclete) as the Holy Spirit!

Your obstinate duplicity is now obvious to all - and you're not worth the dust on the streets of Mecca.

@babs787,

When you made so much noise about opening a thread so you and I might engage in debates, I warned you to let it rest because the initial one (Muhammad's miracles) was enough to let you see that you had nothing to offer yourself and your ummah; and readers could then see exactly how Muslims often dubiously circle around their own denials.

If it was a matter of your penchant to get noticed on Nairaland for having said absolutely nothing other than consistently denying truth as much as you can, then you have once again been exposed for that very position in the second thread (Where Did Allah Refer To Muhammad As "The Spirit") I opened to bleach the dross and let readers once again know the sort of person you are.

At the end of the day, you have given me even stronger reasons WHY I should completely stay out of Islam; and top of the list is your cowardly and shameless duplicity. Muslims are well known for that, and I won't die in a religion that fosters LYING. This is why I severally said that by your attitude and obstinate hypocrisy in constantly denying the obvious, you guys have confirmed that Islam is a huge HOGWASH.

I gave you a simple challenge: stop your hypocritic lies, acknowledge the simple truth, and show me in your QUR'AN or HADITH where Allah ever referred to Muhammad "THE HOLY SPIRIT" - and I will publicly apologise and swallow my pride, and then reconsider my stance on Islam. You keep failing in that singular challenge and rather offering cosmetic excuses to dribble round the simple truth in John 14:16 & 26; and by so doing, you further confirm my words to be solidly true - and your hypocrisy will remain a strong reason why I should ever reject the dubious Muslim claims about Islam.

There's still hope for you in Jesus Christ - and you will find it when you cease from your FALSEHOOD.

babs787:

Thanks, I may not be around for some days I do not know if I may be able to have connection where I am going but you will surely hear from me.

I hear. You may not see me until after my exams, but I'll pop in thereafter to see how you're getting on - for better or for the worst.

Regards.

@noddy,

noddy:

@pilgrim.1

there is a saying I have and it goes something like this: when devil dey waka come with im wahala give am chance. In the bible it is translated thus resist the devil and he will flee from you. So what if some dude come up with some conspiracy theory, its his brain to do as he sees fit. some times its best to let people ramble because then you know what they are full of ( shit or intelligence). No matter the religious theories that have been put out there God has never been belittled in any way or form because He always finds a way to put suckers in their place. Sometimes its best to let go and let God. Believe me pilgrim He can fight His battles Himself (hence the term "the battle is the Lord's". This is the reason why i chose not to engage the muslims because long and short there is no need to.

noddy:

@ pilgrim.1 by the way I AM A CHRISTIAN and what I wrote was aimed Don Maselo and Babs and in a way you not to give them room to keep talking before something more incredulous is said. Furthermore I AM NOT A HYPOCRITE and all the other beautiful words you used to describe me. cheerio

My dear, I owe you a BIG apology - not because I now know you're a Christian; but the very day I replied your initial post, you won't believe how many emails I received in less than an hour demanding impressing upon me to come back to the Forum and humbly apologise to you and some others (yes, you were mentioned by name) - and I lived up to my promise to them by apologizing. Even to those who I did not agree with, it didn't matter to me whether or not they were Christians. So, here's yours:

[center]Noddy, I apologise!![/center]

That said, I would rather say that you've spoken well and I can't improve on yours. May God richly bless your week and fill you with great testimonies of His grace through Jesus Christ.

Cheers.

@Pligrim.1: When you thought I was thinking that you revered the in my posting, you actually thought wrong. I have read your post against cotholics faith of christianity, even before tht entry of mine. I already know that tha post is not on the list of your heroes. It is the same assumption that you have when you thought that I was disagreeing with Babs727. Far from it, I actually agree with him, and you will read it throughout my post regarding holy spirit/ghost/comforter.

Just as there was no part of the Old testament of Moses where Jesus christ was mentioned by name, your conclusion, therefore that he was the only one of all the prophets from the children of Isreal, which came after Moses, is only assumption. The Jews, who probably know that personality more than every other nations and people, since they are the one, particularly addressed, dont even believe Jesus to be anything, even as an ordinary prophet!

So, every nation, outside the children of Israel that claim to be under the authority of Jesus, have directly failed to accept the verse where Jesus said he was only sent to the Lost sheep of the House of Israel! One should ask oneself, if one is from the house of Israel. House of Israel means children of Israel, period. From many verses of the Bible, even in the new testament, we read where the children of Israel is supposed to be the bearer of the flag of belief. But there are certain conditions to that flagbearing responsibilties and therefore the rewards.


The core purpose of flagbearing can not be changed and if there are changes, the consequences are dire! Hence, worshipping of any other than only the True God which is One is disobedience to God and a failure to the nature of bearing the flag of true faith. You should look into your Bible and then yourself; the answer is staring you in the eyes. And it is blinking. But may chose to ignore it.


Here is my question for you, how can Jesus not disagreed with Mosess, in every thing Moses. And he demstrated that by not even changing a single Jot of Moses original and true complete revelation and the law. Yet Mr. Paul and co came and changed if not everything , at least something from it. However little or slightly.

From my book, if you scatch a bruisedless apple, you can say it is still the same 100% apple, brisedless! Just imagine if some portions are cut from it yet it is dressed upthat you dont know how much is remaining, can you say it is still 100% just because you dont know what is left? The Qur'an is the 100% unbruised apple from the same tree that the originally unbruised Bible came from. You can know by the shape of one that is 100% that amount of the bruised apple is original.

the argument pros and cons has been interesting, you guys please do continue to bash each other 

@olabowale,

Although I was going for a long break from the Forum, I just popped in to see how you guys are getting on - and found that I could easily handle some of your worries in a few minutes. So here:

olabowale:

@Pligrim.1: When you thought I was thinking that you revered the in my posting, you actually thought wrong. I have read your post against cotholics faith of christianity, even before that entry of mine. I already know that tha post is not on the list of your heroes. It is the same assumption that you have when you thought that I was disagreeing with Babs727. Far from it, I actually agree with him, and you will read it throughout my post regarding holy spirit/ghost/comforter.

I hear.

olabowale:

Just as there was no part of the Old testament of Moses where Jesus christ was mentioned by name, your conclusion, therefore that he was the only one of all the prophets from the children of Isreal, which came after Moses, is only assumption. The Jews, who probably know that personality more than every other nations and people, since they are the one, particularly addressed, don't even believe Jesus to be anything, even as an ordinary prophet!

That is because you are looking sideways at the issue and have not carefully considered the collective testimony of all the prophets. There were many Jews who believed in Jesus in His earthly minsitry (John 2:23), and there are Jews who are still believing in Him even today.

John 2:23
Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover,
in the feast day, many believed in his name,
when they saw the miracles which he did.

John 4:39
And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him
for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me
all that ever I did.

John 4:41
And many more believed because of his own word

John 7:31
And many of the people believed on him, and said,
When Christ cometh, will he do more miracles than
these which this man hath done?

John 10:42
And many believed on him there.

What I'd advise you to do for me next time: please GET YOUR FACTS before posting - so that we can handle issues quite easily. I think it's about time that you stopped listening to the excuses of the mullah and those rascals who just sell such huge fallacies to the Muslim ummah just to discredit the Bible - and in most cases they are successful in fooling Muslims who have no discipline to check out the assertive denials of their own apologists!

olabowale:

So, every nation, outside the children of Israel that claim to be under the authority of Jesus, have directly failed to accept the verse where Jesus said he was only sent to the Lost sheep of the House of Israel!

Sorry, we have been through that part of the script so many times - and I've shown again and again that the ministry of jesus Christ is for the ENTIRE world!!

olabowale:

One should ask oneself, if one is from the house of Israel. House of Israel means children of Israel, period. From many verses of the Bible, even in the new testament, we read where the children of Israel is supposed to be the bearer of the flag of belief. But there are certain conditions to that flagbearing responsibilties and therefore the rewards.

This is simply too easy to deal with. Just as you have acknowledged that Israel has a special place, so it is vital to understand that the prophecies of the coming Messiah in the OT all point to none other than Jesus Christ. This is why He said: "Salvation is of the Jews" (John 4:22) - he never said that salvation is of the Arabs.

olabowale:

The core purpose of flagbearing can not be changed and if there are changes, the consequences are dire! Hence, worshipping of any other than only the True God which is One is disobedience to God and a failure to the nature of bearing the flag of true faith. You should look into your Bible and then yourself; the answer is staring you in the eyes. And it is blinking. But may chose to ignore it.

Lol. , however you chose to look at it, your admissions are only confirming even more strongly that the Muslim apologists so far have failed in their mission to convincingly present a reasoned explication for finding Muhammad in the Bible.

olabowale:

Here is my question for you, how can Jesus not disagreed with Mosess, in every thing Moses. And he demstrated that by not even changing a single Jot of Moses original and true complete revelation and the law. Yet Mr. Paul and co came and changed if not everything , at least something from it. However little or slightly.

I think you have made a rod for your back!

You claimed to have agreed essentially with babs787's position - which is especially that Muslims claim that the Torah and the Inil are LOST. What we have been asking ever is that you Muslims ought to provide us with copies of those LOST documents instead of speaking from mere assumptions. If you cannot do that, you don't have an entry point into your arguments in the first place.

olabowale:

From my book, if you scatch a bruisedless apple, you can say it is still the same 100% apple, brisedless! Just imagine if some portions are cut from it yet it is dressed upthat you don't know how much is remaining, can you say it is still 100% just because you don't know what is left? The Qur'an is the 100% unbruised apple from the same tree that the originally unbruised Bible came from. You can know by the shape of one that is 100% that amount of the bruised apple is original.

Phew! I'll just take that last line as the cream of the comic reliefs I've heard in a long while!

Ciao.

@pilgrims


You keep going round in circles. I provided questions on holy spirit but rather than profer answers, you referred me to a link where you never answered same.

I sabi you very well

I will soon be back huh

@babs787,

babs787:

@pilgrims

You keep going round in circles. I provided questions on holy spirit but rather than profer answers, you referred me to a link where you never answered same.

You don't seem to realize that your hypocrisy was being observed by others. Check this:

ricadelide:

@pilgrim,
Having read your reply to bros, my little mind is wondering how (inevitably) our friends will still ignore all the answers and come out dribbling from another corner to still refer to the same issue and complain that "it hasn't been answered". All in all, pretending that you never posted anything.
It's like a learned, professional skill. Amusing!! (Oh, i should have said; amazing!)

And this was my response earlier:

#1.

pilgrim.1:

@babs787,

When you made so much noise about opening a thread so you and I might engage in debates, I warned you to let it rest because the initial one (Muhammad's miracles) was enough to let you see that you had nothing to offer yourself and your ummah; and readers could then see exactly how Muslims often dubiously circle around their own denials.

#2.

pilgrim.1:

If it was a matter of your penchant to get noticed on Nairaland for having said absolutely nothing other than consistently denying truth as much as you can, then you have once again been exposed for that very position in the second thread (Where Did Allah Refer To Muhammad As "The Spirit") I opened to bleach the dross and let readers once again know the sort of person you are.

At the end of the day, you have given me even stronger reasons WHY I should completely stay out of Islam; and top of the list is your cowardly and shameless duplicity. Muslims are well known for that, and I won't die in a religion that fosters LYING. This is why I severally said that by your attitude and obstinate hypocrisy in constantly denying the obvious, you guys have confirmed that Islam is a huge HOGWASH.

#3.

pilgrim.1:

I gave you a simple challenge: stop your hypocritic lies, acknowledge the simple truth, and show me in your QUR'AN or HADITH where Allah ever referred to Muhammad "THE HOLY SPIRIT" - and I will publicly apologise and swallow my pride, and then reconsider my stance on Islam. You keep failing in that singular challenge and rather offering cosmetic excuses to dribble round the simple truth in John 14:16 & 26; and by so doing, you further confirm my words to be solidly true - and your hypocrisy will remain a strong reason why I should ever reject the dubious Muslim claims about Islam.

Pretending to be so blind as to not have seen my answers and then repeatedly claiming that I "never answered same" is the hallmark of Muslim duplicity.

Regards.

Pilgrim.1; Before you will die, which is still a long, long time, please do this for me: Do you believe any verse or some verses in the Qur'an? If the answer is yes, then I wanna know which ones and why? Please give us some spiritual basis for believing these verses. I will like to caution you that your Bible does not provide you any base for any Christian to make any reference into Qur'an. The Bible is not aware of the existence of the Qur'an. I will wait for your answer and exegesis, so that we may properly have a serious dialogue, not a debate. Debate is very confrontational.

In the long run, I will prefer that you come back to a religion that honors a family and does not promote a rancour in the family, even if you call that a lie. But it is better than deceit which is abounding in the Bible. But lets leave that aside, the story of Jacob with his brother, and others are stark examples. But more importantly is the 3 in one God. The God dying and giving up ghost or committing soul to the hand of another soul, etc. That is more dangerous and leads to disaster.

Where in the Qur'an is 'Holy spirit,' used and for who; Jesus, Jibriil or who?

@olabowale,

Let me say something here in the hope that you will end this Muslim games with me: Please cease from the hypocrisy of pretending blindness as if you have not seen our answers to the same questions you have been endlessly littering threads with. Could you do that for me? Thank you.

However, I'll oblige you this once - seeing that your recent question is quite a cogent one (which again earns you my respect from some other Muslim apologists):

olabowale:

Pilgrim.1; Before you will die, which is still a long, long time, please do this for me: Do you believe any verse or some verses in the Qur'an? If the answer is yes, then I want to know which ones and why? Please give us some spiritual basis for believing these verses.

My straight answer to your question is: NO!

However, let me contextualize WHY I don't not believe in any verse of the Qur'an - in the sense of Muhammad's claim to have been a prophet sent by the God who revealed Himself to the Biblical prophets.

There are loads of reasons why I don't trust the Qur'an; but the basic reasons include the following:

(a) So many of Muhammad's claims are FALSE. There is no other way I could simply say so; and I have continued to offer pointers to some of these concerns in my discussions/debates with Muslims, and they have consistently ducked my queries and never once convincingly established any basis for those claims as actually true. For example, in the on-going debate about the "lost" Torah and Injil, have you seen how easy it is for Muslims to LIE and excuse the fact that the Qur'an teaches that "Allah" revealed the books of the Bible? Rather, they have sought to make claims that are not taught in the Qur'an - and yet shamelessly offered them as "answers" to what they cannot defend.

(b) Certainly, there are so many inconsistencies in the Qur'an; but my style is not so much to argue on "inconsistencies and contradictions". Rather, my concerns have been more about the content of Muhammad's claims in the Qur'an - and where Muhammad claimed fallacies which cannot be verified, he only concludes the inference that he qualifies as a false prophet by Biblical standards! WHY is this so? Because he had claimed that the Qur'an was a "confirmation" (not a "contradiction" or the Bible - and where we read so many contradictory statements in the Qur'an, it no longer stands as a "confirmation" of the Bible.

These two points are the basic premise of my evaluating the claims of Muhammad in the Qur'an. And talking about a "spiritual basis" for my stance, the one thing that stands out clear is that Muhammad's life as a whole was a huge contradiction to his vocation as a "prophet"!

olabowale:

I will like to caution you that your Bible does not provide you any base for any Christian to make any reference into Qur'an. The Bible is not aware of the existence of the Qur'an.

You have only established the very point I have been trying to make all this while. The Bible does not make any reference to the Qur'an - but Muhammad wanted Muslims to believe the direct opposite by claiming that the Bible made reference to him in both the Torah and the Injil!! (Qur'an 7:157 - "Those who follow the messenger, the Prophet who can neither read nor write, whom they will find described in the Torah and the Gospel (which are) with them".

Now, olabowale, how could Muhammad have tried to make such a claim when as a matter of FACT he does not appear once in the entire Bible? Further, Muslims today claim all sorts of dubious caterwauls to ridicule the same Bible which they say is "lost" - and yet they struggle to force-fit Muhammad into the present Bible!

Besides this, I have always cautioned that Muslims show remember that Muhammad claimed that the Qur'an was given as a "CONFIRMATION" of the Torah and the Injil (and all other Scriptures). Muhammad never once claimed that the Qur'an was given as a "contradiction" of the Scriptures that came before it - and if it is true that Muhammad's Qur'an came to "confirm" the Bible, why is it in very fact contradicting the Bible in many instances? Second, why are Muslims attacking the Bible which the Qur'an was given to "confirm"?

I think the only reason why Muslims have hypocritically attacked the Bible with their many cowardly accusations, is because they sense deeply that Muhammad's claims thereto are unfounded - and Muslims do not like to be told the simple truth.

olabowale:

I will wait for your answer and exegesis, so that we may properly have a serious dialogue, not a debate. Debate is very confrontational.

I'm open to dialogue - it is Muslim hypocrisy that I don't spare.

olabowale:

In the long run, I will prefer that you come back to a religion that honors a family and does not promote a rancour in the family, even if you call that a lie.

So many religions honour the family and promote family values. My thirst is far beyond that - and only in Jesus Christ have I found a deeply satisfying answer to my deepest longing.

olabowale:

But it is better than deceit which is abounding in the Bible.

Lol. . . you see why you sometimes amaze me with the typical hypocrisy? Did you not say you were looking for a "dialogue" and not a "debate"? But even before you closed your post, you have already launched the misile. Ekare.

olabowale:

But lets leave that aside, the story of Jacob with his brother, and others are stark examples.

I see. Your problem is really perrennial. If 'Allah' has made several remarks about Biblical characters which are so incoherent to even Muslims, you would gullibly swallow them through thick straws!

olabowale:

But more importantly is the 3 in one God. The God dying and giving up ghost or committing soul to the hand of another soul, etc. That is more dangerous and leads to disaster.

I hear. It does not lead to disaster. The one thing you should be worried over is that after all your Islamically disguised monotheism, 'Allah' has promised to take every Muslim to Hell fire by a hatman decree! Now tell me - which is more dangerous: Christianity that teaches forgiveness and the gift of eternal life for believing in Jesus Christ the Son of God; Or the pretended monotheim of Islam that still leads Muslims to end up in Hell fire according to Sura 19:71?

Your allegations against the Bible are rubbished by the Qur'an itself. And until you guys wake up and smell the coffee, you will still be circling on the same spot.

♪ ♪ Shalom.

@Pilgrim.1: I pray to Amighty God, the Creator of all things that your exams are easy on you. Also to all who are in the exam period, fromNairaland. Much success. Amiin.

To give you an answer on the Lost, distorted, impure Gospel, Torah, sabuur, indeed the Bible, you will have to follw my logic. First, if some oranges are freshly sqeezed into a tall glass, you will agree that it will have the pure orangy color, smell and if not strained, enough pulps. That is just for starter, with only visual test. If it is tasted, the drinker will definately be able to say for sure, that it is an adulturatedly a pure and freshly sqeezed orange juice. This is the state of the Torah, when it was revealed to Moses, the state of the sabuur when it was revealed to David and the state of the injiil when it was revealed to Jesus. May God be pleased with them all.

However, when they were not on the scene of mankind and just at the time that Muhammad came on the scene, the Bible, containing the three revelations, as indicated have gone from , similitude of a tall glass full of pure orange juice to the most watered down full glass of what could be called colored water, however faint/light the color is, and it has not the pure orange taste, now its smell and definately, you can only find some pulp, if you look hard enough!

How can this happen? The drinker of the initially tall orange, realises that he needs to keep his glass full, because of his unquenchable thirst and desire to satisfy his own need, regardless of how he does it. He pays no particular attention to the purity of the orange anymore, so he adds, ice/rocks to it, at first. Then later as he continues to drink, and there are no more ice/rocks, he added water, and he way even add cool aid, or tangy mix.

This is what is meant by lost, corrupted or whatever you wanna call it. The bottomline is that your Bible is no more 100% from God. I know you will talk about it being inspired. So here is the question for you, does God inspire mondanely, as in some of the verses of whatever came out of Paul, where he said that this is from his own heart? Is that not an example that will cancel out your Inspired writer argument?

@Pilgrim.1: The Qur'an as you claim, is to confirm, but yet contradicts the Bible, can be very simply explained in the post from me above. Two things stand out from them; First that the Bible three parts, the Torah, sabuur and Injill, were pure when they were revealed on the prophet that received, his own revelation. This is the Books or Bible that Muhammad was sent to confirm. If only you could direct your mind to go in time with me, the eact moment time delta t, when prophets were still, on the scene, during their individual prophetic time.

The Bible or the three books that the Qur'an confirmed, earlier in their pure states, are now poluted as in the waterdown, drink that still a glass full, but has not the physical qualities any long and the taste, at best only a far cry from the originally pure taste. This grade of the Bible, was what Muhammad met when he began his prophethood. It is still what you have today. It is very low in purity. You should have appreciated the courage of muhammad, who spoke the truth and you could not argue against it, if you are to spend the rest of man's natural live to do it! Instead, you get so uptight and upset. Yet you are able to understand complex academic matters, found in your academic textbooks.

It is the heart, my dear sister. I ask God to soften it so that guidance will enter it. I am still eager that you let us connect and then with daddy, too. When you are ready, let me know.

@Pilgrim.1: When I said that the Bible did not make reference or directly confirm the Qur'an, I just have to drag you out to understand from the two entries above, that I have established that the Bible that Muhammad referred to as mentioning him, is the Pure true revelations, which the prophets received at that time, while they were still alive to guard and confirm its total pure contents. In that Bible, Muhammad was clearly mentioned

However, the ones that were in use, when Muhammad began his mission of prophethood, and even the ones that we have, in our present day, are already being polluted, watered down and deemed impure. This is the Bible that you are using for your argument! They are not the true and pure revelation from God.

In the Battle of Uhud, a learned scholar of the Jews of Madina, came to his tribe, before the campaign. He gathered them together and told them that the Jews know that this is the prophet that they were expecting and they were commanded to support him. So he declared his allegiance, as a Muslim. he went to war and was killed just at the beginning of the war. When Muhammad was told about this man, he said the man did so little for so big a reward!

Why did the Jews trooped into yatrib, which later became Madina, in large numbers, compared to the whole of other Arabian city and towns? It was written in their book that a prophet will come from that town, Madina, who will be just and will give law and order. True to Jewish believes, they went to Madina, thinking that the prophet will come from their heritage. Unfortunately for them and fortunately for the rest of the world, he came from the Quraish of Makka, but having a tie to Madina. Finally, you and me know the rest of the story. The Jews knew him from the very moment they saw him. They knew he was a prophet.

You should never forget the story of his Uncle, his guardian with him to Syria, when he was still a little boy. That alone is enough to make your heart accept guidance. Anyway, Omo de si nse e. Olorun a wa pelu e ati gbo gbo wa. Amiin. The last deed carries a great weight. So there is still hope for every one.

I have answered the Surah 19, verse 71. It is about the none negotiable and forgone concluded decree, for all mankind, Muslims and non Muslims, must be on the bridge "OVER HELL," a final test or trial or hurdle, in order to get to PARADISE. Here is the delimma for you, a non Muslim; is bound to fall into hellfire from this BRIDGE! The Muslims, based on the degree of the individual's God consciousness and good deeds done, while alive, will crosss it in various speed. From the lighting speed to the crawling like an infant speed. Yes some Muslims will fall into the Hellfire, to be punished. It will, InshaAllah, be a temporary punishment. Yes it is bad and I pray that I am not in this group of Muslim. But all non Muslims, without excepts, Kings and Queens, Presidents and Prime Ministers, Wealthy and as well as poor people, who reject the faith of Laa illaha illala, Muhammadanr rRasulullah, wa Isa bin Mariam Rasulullah, from the time of Muhammad's prophethood onward, to the end of time will end up in Hell. The previous generations, before the ones under Muhammad's prophethood, had their own Messengers; Noah, Ibrahiim, Musa and Jesus, to name a few.

When you are ready, I will be here, InshaAllah, for conversation.

olabowale:

I have answered the Surah 19, verse 71. It is about the none negotiable and forgone concluded decree, for all mankind, Muslims and non Muslims, must be on the bridge "OVER HELL," a final test or trial or hurdle, in order to get to PARADISE. Here is the delimma for you, a non Muslim; is bound to fall into hellfire from this BRIDGE! The Muslims, based on the degree of the individual's God consciousness and good deeds done, while alive, will crosss it in various speed. From the lighting speed to the crawling like an infant speed. Yes some Muslims will fall into the Hellfire, to be punished. It will, InshaAllah, be a temporary punishment.

You have not answered the question but have merely added your own interpretation in order to make it more presentable. Like pilgrim.1 has consistently asked without any answer . . . where in the quran did allah indicate that there will be a "bridge" over hell? Where did you get your twisted analogy from? your local imam or another spurious website seeking to paper over mohamadu's flights of fancy?