₦airaland Forum

I love the Kawhi controls the shotclock, no need jacking up threes early in the shot-clock when you're up by double digits in the fourth.

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S.A

As you can see, Nigerians are mostly haters

Just see how many negative responses have been posted thus far.

How do you develop yourself, if you are always hating others.

S.A

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hello

norm1:
How many KVA?

Hey bro, it's 2.5kva/1.8KW continuous

S.A

NiyiOmoIyunade:
Let us do this analysis differently using properly matched items.

The requirement is to power a 500watt load for 20hours and to keep things simple I have assumed any battery type can be fully recharged instantaneously without caring about how practical this is

To power my load, I can choose between

A) 8 Quanta 12v 200Ah Batteries (Useable 9.6kwh @ 50% DoD) costs NGN960K

B) 9 BattleBorn 12v 100Ah Batteries (Useable 9.6kwh @ 90% DoD) costs at least NGN3.8Million.

We need to be very careful here as one cannot use less than the stated number of batteries to power the stated load for the stated time

From here on I will just be saying Quanta vs BattleBorn for the specs above.

Quanta gives at least 700-750 cycles at 50% DoD based on empirical evidence vs BattleBorn 3,000 cycles. I will take 2 years & 730 cycles as a midpoint for Quanta performance and 3,000 cycles for BattleBorn.

If both batteries hold up, every 2 years I buy new Quanta batteries - 960K * 5 = NGN4.8Million over a 10 year period and over a 10 year period, I would have spent a prorated NGN4.6Million on BattleBorn batteries.

While the advantage is to BattleBorn, it is a rather close call and a few hard questions come to mind.

1) Would I rather spend 960K for Quanta today and replace every 2 years (assume inflation is zero) or would I rather sink NGN3.5Million in Battleborn and rest for 8 years?

2) Can I guarantee for sure that BattleBorn will give me 8 years service if I daily flog it to 90% DoD)? - we seek reviews regularly from Lithium users and they appear no better than Lead Acid so far - the common theme is failure/damage due to overcharge, overdischarge, over temperature and various other failure modes as the users and installers come to a full grasp of this new technology - it appears everyone is still learning Lithium and killing their Lithium banks prematurely seems to be a key part of the learning process

3) Standing where I am today, can I lock down my 10 year forward power needs and know that these BattleBorns I invested in will meet my power demand in 5 years time? I know I can easily upgrade every two years with Quanta.

4) On those days when I have peak demand, I can flog my Quanta and take them to 80% DoD - my expensive BattleBorns would have been fully spent and no extra power to draw out of them.

All the above assumptions can be flexed as you are inclined - people like Oga Dapsyra can tell us if his LTO batteries have maintained capacity with daily flogging to like 80% DoD and no decline whatsoever in performance.

hmmm, you make some very good points.


First off though you are overestimating quanta cycle life at 50% DOD. I have posted a graph from quanta datasheet, stating that you get 500 cycles at 50% DOD.

If you must power that 500 watt load for 20 hours straight, then we must take 8 battleborns to 100% DOD:

8 12v 200ah quanta batteries
usable amphour - 400ah x 500 cycles = 200,000ah @ 50% DOD

8 12 100ah BB
usable amphour - 200ah x 3000 cycles = 600,000ah @ 100% DOD

Cost of 8 quantas N1,000,000
Cost of 8 Battleborns N3,000,000

The ratios don't look that bad, however, at the end of the battleborns 3,000 cycles, you'd still have over 70% capacity remaining

According to Battleborn website:

Approximately 75-80% of the battery capacity will remain after 3000 cycles in applications recharging at 0.5C or lower

We have seen life spans well over 5000 cycles in our lab testing.

It's close but not really close due to the remaining capacity in the batteries.

Your concern about lithium failing is correct, hence why I chose lifepo4, a very stable lithium chemistry. Plus, things go wrong when you don't have an internal BMS.

I recon that the BB batteries would be less prone to failure as they are "smart" batteries, compared to typical lead acid batteries that just contain mechanical and chemical parts, no electronics in them to prevent failure from overdischarging and overcharging. Most people that record failure do so with lithium batteries installed without a BMS.

I like your way of looking at it from a load perspective and not just a DOD/cycle life perspective.

The cool thing I really like about this battery is that fact that you don't have to charge it to full each time. Mine have been sitting at 60% S.O.C for days now, without a care in the world.

earthrealm:
see what am saying here, you said the AH in 8 units 12V 200ah quanta battery is 200AH, this is wrong



lemme do it like this for a 24v system
2 x 12v x 200ah quanta vs 2x 12v x 100ah lipo4
200AH X 500 CYCLES = 100,000AH over its lifecycle cost 240k
100AH X 3000 CYCLES = 300,000AH Over its lifecycle cost 800k

you can see that the battleborn only beat the quanta x3 in terms of AH, but in terms of cost. it evens out again about 3.15x
so theoritically, one would have changed his quanta 3x, and still be at par with the lipo4 battleborns......

lastly if a bank is sized properly, it may take 10yrs for the quanta to hit 500 cycles...georged1 is a living example, his bank is 5yrs abi 7yrs and counting... so to me the only advantage the lipo4 has is the 100% DOD, and with the hefty price point, i would rather oversize my bank, than cough out the enormous sums involved in the Lipo4, Renewable energy is sweet, but at a point, if the cost outstrips utility, it becomes useless, thats why i would rather keep a meduim sized gen to top up my bank on the few days in the year where the bank dips below 50% dod...than expend funds trying to oversize my array or battery bank

I admire the LIPO4 battery, but till the prices get more pocket friendly, would they give the conventional lead acid battery a run for their money

I made a mistake with the cycle count in my earlier post, my apologies. If one cycle is using the entire battery capacity, then at 50% DOD, you should make use of the entire 200ah of the 2 quanta batteries. So your calculation below is correct:

200AH X 500 CYCLES = 100,000AH over its lifecycle cost 240k

I was of the impression before that a cycle would be from 100% state of charge to about 50% state of charge, but after breezing through cycle definitions on the web, I see that a cycle is using the entire battery capacity, albeit not all at once.

Keep in mind however that I also did my estimation for 100% DOD for cycle life, i.e 3,000 cycles @ 100% DOD. At 50% DOD, the cycle life for lifepo4 changes dramatically. According to the specs for lifepo4, please refer to graphs below, if you keep a 50% DOD, your cycle life can go up to about 10,000 cycles. I will use 6,000 cycles in my calculation to be conservative

Okay so new calculation

2 12V Quanta 200ah vs 2 BB 12v 100ah

Discharged to 50% DOD

Quanta:
Usable amphour - 200ah x 500 cycles = 100,000 ah

Battleborn
Useable amphour - 100ah x 6,000 cycles = 600,000ah

Cost of Quanta: N234K
Cost of Battleborn: N800K

So it would take about 6 PAIRS of quanta batteries, 12 quantas, to make up for the 2 Battleborn batteries if discharged to 50% DOD with a conservative 6,000 cycles for lifepo4.

earthrealm:
@nomoretrolling.
Very detailed analysis, but flawed.compare apples for apples..ie its best comparing 2 x 12v x 100ah battle borns vs 8 x 12v x 200ah quanta ...assume parallel connections to reduce the error and make it simpler

2 12v 100ah battleborns have the same equivalent energy as 2 24v 50ah batteries, 1250watthours.

I used the 2 24v batteries in that example, because it's the cheapest battleborn configuration to power a 48v inverter system.

They sell 24v 50ah batteries as well as 12v 100ah batteries. If you were to use 4 12v 100ah BB batteries, then they would really outperform those 8 quantas by a wider margin.

Wazari:
Hello NoMoreTrolling,

I agree that Lithium batteries are more economical in the long term than comparable lead acid batteries. Niyi is right when he says lithium is always more expensive than lead acid when considering the initial investment (usually up to 3 times more expensive).

The problem is that you have made a comparism between two products that are not practically equivalent and drawn a misleading conclusion. Stating that 2 no. of 24v 50ah lithium batteries can somewhat match 8 no. 12v 200ah lead acid batteries is wrong.

If I have a load that can be supported within at least 12 hours by the 2.5kwh lithium batteries and I wanted an equivalent lead acid battery, I would get 2 no. 12v 200ah lead acid batteries.

Lithium batteries have many advantages over lead acid batteries but upfront cost is a major disadvantage of lithium especially when you consider the time value of money.

True, the upfront cost is there, but it's like comparing the upfront cost of solar panels to power a 1kw load 24/7, vs that of a petrol gen.

The petrol gen would be cheaper to buy upfront and run, but would become more expensive by year 2 and get even more expensive with each ongoing year, i.e year 3, year 4, year 5, year 6 and so on. Meanwhile the solar system would cost about 10 times the cost of the genset, but would already be cheaper by year 2, year 3, 4, 5 and so on.

So I guess it just depends on budgets and short/long term factors.

I brought up the comparison because of the budget allocation for the purchase of lead acid batteries. I just feel, in that price segment, lifepo4 would be a better option.

However, if one is constrained by budget and needs power NOW, then lead acid is still a fantastic option.

NiyiOmoIyunade:
Dear Sir,

Please I wanted to clarify this assertion of Quanta Lead Acid vs BattleBorn Lithium...

8 units Quanta 200Ah batteries per nameplate is 19.2kwh storage - at 50% DoD you get 9.6kwh effective capacity to use.

The 2 BattleBorn units are what nominal voltage and Ah capacity please? Even if I assume a generous 12v and 200Ah, I do not see how 4.8kwh useable capacity (even at 100% DoD) will outperform a lead acid bank with useable capacity twice the size.

I just want to understand your basis as everytime I do the analysis, Lithium turns out more expensive from an initial outlay point of view

Hey Niyi, hope you're doing well!

Okay, let's play with the numbers:

8 units of quanta at 12v 200ah vs 2 battleborn 24v 50ah units.

QUANTA:
Usable amphour - 200ah (9.6kwh at 50% DOD)
Cycle life - about 500 cycles at 50% DOD (According to quanta datasheet)
Lifetime amphour = 500 cycles x 200amphours = 100,000 amphour

Battleborn:
Usable amphour - 50ah (2.5kwh at 100% DOD)
Cycle life - 3,000 cycles at 100% DOD (According to Battleborn Datasheet)
Lifetime amphour = 3,000 x 50 = 150,000 amphour


As we can see, theoretically, we should get more usable life out of the 2 small 24v 50ah, than the 8 12v 200ah quanta batteries.


Next, we must consider the possibility of failure:

Quanta (Lead Acid):
Failure occurs if the batteries aren't fully recharged often enough due to sulphation. This is more likely if the batteries are out of balance and charge up to varying voltages, likely leading to one or two batteries not getting to full charge.

Leaving batteries partially discharged over a long period of time can also lead to failure.

Obviously, low cell voltage also adversely effects capacity.

Battleborn (LiFePo4)
Irreparable failure can occur if cell voltage gets too low, which is mitigated with the internal BMS shutting off discharge.

Failure can also occur at high voltages, 4.2v per cell, but again, this is mitigated by the internal BMS shutting off charge

...

So in essence, you can leave your lifepo4 batteries at 50% state of charge and not be worried about capacity loss, while with lead acid, YOU MUST get all those batteries to a 100% state of charge as often as possible, else premature failure would occur.


The advantage of the 8 12v quanta batteries in this case vs the small 24v 50ah BB would be the backup time you would get while the quanta batteries are still in good shape. Running a 500 watt load on those 8 batteries, you would get 20 hours of back up time compared to the 5 hours of backup time you would with the 2 BB batteries. However, over the lifetime, the 2 BB batteries would give you more total hours of backup.



Recharge times:
Quanta Lead Acid:
8 12v batteries charging at the recommended C/10 charge rate, 40 amps, would take 10 hours to charge to full from empty or 5 hours to charge from 50% to 100%. This obviously doesn't account for the time you would need to spend in the absorption phase, which for most inverters is about 2 hours, or a factor of how ever long the bulk phase was. So you could be spending 8 hours to get from 50% to 100%, because that absorption phase is extremely important for lead acid.

BattleBorn:
Those 2 little 24v 50ah units can be recharged at C/2 rates and DO NOT NEED AN ABSORPTION PHASE, which means with 25amps, you'll be done charging in just 2 hours. If you don't mind taking a hit with your cycle life, then you can recharge at 1C during an emergency and have that battery full in just 1 hour. So instead of running your gen for 8 hours waiting for your battery to charge, you'd just need about 1 hour 30 mins of gen time to be back for another cycle.


This was just to show that 2 24v 50ah battleborn units can somewhat match the 8 12v 200ah quanta units. Obviously it would be better to have 4 12v 100ah battleborn units for a 48v system than 2 24v 50ah units.

I am doing more research into building lifpo4 packs from cheap cells since Battleborns are very expensive, but I truly believe lifepo4 is the future of solar, at least as the prices keep crashing downward like solar panels, hopefully.

earthrealm:
nope, i meant, a 450w load lasts abt 1hr >2hrs on the bank of 8 batts.
1 of the new batts was reading 7.6v when others were 12.9v, the whole bank is toast, want to select the best 4 batts, and hook them up...observe for a while, be sure of what killed the batts...then advice owner to buy new batts..



may have considered that route if it was my own setup, but as it is, not willing to gamble at the moment. lemme stick to the conventional tech. considering the 6v 400ah thundervolts

I feel you sha on playing it safe, lol

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