₦airaland Forum

achorladey:
Hello, so I have this elderly JW couple studying with me for some months now, do you think they are a bad idea?

Since when has someone studying the scripture with another fellow become a bad idea?


If they are what religion do you associate with currently

What religion is pure and undefiled from God's standpoint based on what you have studied so far from the elderly people you have been studying with?

The two questions above have answers embedded in them. I only hope your knowledge and study of the scriptures as stated here in your post can pick them out.

Thanks for your input.

achorladey:
You have discussed at length with him. I don't think he really understand what point you are trying to make, even what the extrabiblical mean?

Yeah, I sensed that too!

needanswer:
Thanks for your input.

Hope you got the needed answers you seek

achorladey:
Hope you got the needed answers you seek

It's obvious from my post on this topic, so yes.

needanswer:
It's obvious from my post on this topic, so yes.

I am talking about my response to your questions. Did you get the answers you seek?

achorladey:
I am talking about my response to your questions. Did you get the answers you seek?

My question was directed at the OP, I have my answers already. So thanks.

needanswer:
My question was directed at the OP, I have my answers already. So thanks.

Alright!

Reading through the thread needsanwer, is insincere with his question. He is already a JWs wanting to peddle his belief.

My take is you are not sincere, your question is and or you are not reasonable.

Wise Nairalanders, pls ignore him.

MightySparrow: Reading through the thread needsanwer, is insincere with his question. He is already a JW wanting to peddle his belief.
My take is you are not sincere, your question is and or you are not reasonable.
Wise Nairalanders, pls ignore him.

After all the efforts in trying to subvert and discourage the Bible student failed, of course the next thing to conclude is the highlighted. With the little I know from the responses of needanswer, I can see that his heart is like the fine soil in Jesus’ illustration because he’s actually GETTING THE SENSE of the truth(Matthew 13:23) so whatever anyone says to try to discourage him will not deter him from his goal since Jehovah God himself has made the truth grow in our friend’s heart. 1Corinthians 3:6

DappaD:
After all the efforts in trying to subvert and discourage the Bible student failed, of course the next thing to conclude is the highlighted. With the little I know from the responses of needanswer, I can see that his heart is like the fine soil in Jesus’ illustration because he’s actually GETTING THE SENSE of the truth(Matthew 13:23) so whatever anyone says to try to discourage him will not deter him from his goal since Jehovah God himself has made the truth grow in our friend’s heart. 1Corinthians 3:6

What of the issue of insincerity raised?

MightySparrow:
Reading through the thread needsanwer, is insincere with his question. He is already a JWs wanting to peddle his belief.

My take is you are not sincere, your question is and or you are not reasonable.

Wise Nairalanders, pls ignore him.

Honestly I dont get where you are coming from. I was drawn to the OP by his post searching for answers he may have found. The most important I asked him first.

I asked are the jw bad news and if they are what religion is he with now?

If he mentioned one, I would have looked at them discreetly unless he shares that with me here. So he said he doesnt know any and that's not really helpful.

So OP has answered my major question, so I hope I can breath now sir.

needanswer:
Honestly I dont get where you are coming from. I was drawn to the OP by his post searching for answers he may have found. The most important I asked him first.

I asked are the jw bad news and if they are what religion is he with now?

If he mentioned one, I would have looked at them discreetly unless he shares that with me here. So he said he doesnt know any and that's not really helpful.

So OP has answered my major question, so I hope I can breath now sir.

I'll respond to the other ones and any other questions you have. I just have been quite busy.

rottennaija:
I'll respond to the other ones and any other questions you have. I just have been quite busy.

Ok no p

DappaD:
After all the efforts in trying to subvert and discourage the Bible student failed, of course the next thing to conclude is the highlighted. With the little I know from the responses of needanswer, I can see that his heart is like the fine soil in Jesus’ illustration because he’s actually GETTING THE SENSE of the truth(Matthew 13:23) so whatever anyone says to try to discourage him will not deter him from his goal since Jehovah God himself has made the truth grow in our friend’s heart. 1Corinthians 3:6

Truth your own way

needanswer:
Thanks for the feedback.

So I read all your quoted scriptures, and I have a question for you. Jesus christ said unless one becomes born again he cannot inherit the kingdom of God, John 3:3.
So were David, abraham etc born again?

PART 1
Here is it...

David, Abraham and other ancient servant of old were not born again. For all intent and purposes, the concept of spiritual rebirth did not exist until Jesus introduced it. David lived under the mosaic law covenant. Abraham lived in a different time. The faithful men and women listed in Hebrews 11 all lived in a different time. So the idea of born again does not/did not apply to them. The same is true of John the Baptist, he was not alive when Jesus introduced the idea of born again, or when the new Christ covenant came into effect in the night of Jesus death.

In Law, there is what is called an ex post facto law. It is a law that retroactively makes criminal an act that was not criminal at the time it was done. An example of an ex post facto law is a law passed in 1994 that applies to acts that occurred in 1989. Let's say smoking cigarette was legal in 2016 , then in 2020 the Nigeria government passes a law that makes smoking cigarette illegal and then makes the law ex post facto, applying the law to those who had smoke (probably even stopped) before the law came into effect and punishes these ones. What do you think about that such law? Is it not tyranny of authority? It may interest you to know that the Nigerian constitution prohibits ex post facto laws for its obvious reasons.

How does this apply?

All men from the times of Jesus are expected to have faith in him, his shed blood etc for salvation and forgiveness of sins. This came into effect when the new covenant came into faith in the night of Jesus' death. If Abraham, David etc are expected to do so when they are no longer alive (death and buried for 1000s of years), how is that fair and kind? That is not considering that God is one of Justice.

These are the fact, the ancient men/women mentioned in the bible had their names written in the book of life as it were by fulfilling the requirements of their time. Abraham was a man of outstanding faith, the bible refers to him as the father of all those having faith. David was described by God as one whose heart agree with his. Same with Abel. God's prophets did their assignment faithfully. All these ones had their different requirement based on the time in which they lived and they were approved by God.

Now consider these. In 2006 when I had admission into the University to Study Engineering, Further Mathematics was not a requirement in my O'Level. (Math, Eng, Phy, Chem, Bio) where the requirements. In my year 3, Futher Mathematics was an O'Level entry requirement for anyone seeking admission into the university. I had since graduated. The University is not asking me to come present my O'Level Further Mathematics or risk losing my certificates. This would be an Ex Post Facto Law. The same in applicable in most areas... as an example, many who were employed into the government civil service in the 1980s were not required to have certain papers like Math (or could be required to have a Pass in Math). But today, it is required they have a Credit in Math.

Let me also add this as I had explained it sometimes ago in this forum. How about the thief on the left who was impaled with Jesus? He lived at the time of Jesus but did not partake of the emblem nor was said to be born again? But consider the facts, this man lived in the time of Jesus, but mostly in prison. He likely had heard a lot about Jesus and when he was impaled alongside him, he displayed exceeding faith in Jesus despite the scorn, mockery and ridiculed made by others. In response to the plea to remember him in his kingdom, Jesus made a direct promised that he would be with him in paradise.

Let me illustrate this way... there is an advertise vacancy for employment. Many are filling forms, some are queening for interview, screening etc. Then the CEO of the company probably on his way out or in; comes across an applicant, probably with non of the requirement for the job. Either by a stroke of luck or sympathy for the applicant dues to coming to know of the applicants' plight offered him/her automatic employment. In this case, the individual has not done any or all the things done by others for the job but is given the job anyway. We see this happen many times. Some call it unmerited favour. When you are chosen by God, you are automatically qualified.

needanswer:
I learnt from my study that to be born again, God's spirit will have to choose you, you cant choose yourself, Roman's 8:16.

And to cement that calling all those who are born again of the spirit must eat the holy communion, without that you havent sealed the calling. Did David, abraham, John the Baptist do any of this?

That was what what you learnt from your study as many JWs had learnt from their studies that the heavenly choosing was closed in 1935 and that if anything, those chosen are replacement to those who became disloyal. Of course, you must be aware this doctrine was discarded about 6 years ago after 70 years of believe. The same can be said about the generation believe of JWs, whose teaching has been abandoned, discarded, revisited severally. What is my point? Learning from your studies does not mean what you learn was true. It just is what is it... what you learnt.

Here is what you need to start doing. Anytime you learn new things, you need to have a proper study and research. When it concerns the bible, you need to study so well the verse, the chapter and the surrounding text. In fact, you need to learn the context of each portion of the bible. It will help you a great deal. In my experience, this is what the JWs fail (or do not know) to do.

Let me ask you, the idea of heavenly calling as explained by the JWs, does it make sense to you? How did those who claim to have the heavenly calling know they did? How do you know the person sitting next to you does not have it? Quoting Ro 8:16, they said "God's spirit bears witness with your spirit" that you are chosen. In what way? How? who? You see these are the messes you get yourself into when you begin to form believes that are not there. You dig more holes that are becoming increasingly difficult to fill and then neglect the most relevant scriptural text that actually addresses the topic.

Let me keep it this simple. How is someone born again? What is the new birth?

What does it mean to be born again?

"Born again" literally means "born from above." Other expressions used in the bible are: “a new creature”, “Baptized into Christ”, “Sons of God through faith”, “Children of God”, “new birth”. (2 Co 5:17, Ro 6:3, Ga 3:26, John 6:44, 1 Pe 1:3,23)

The “new birth”, is an act of God whereby eternal life is given to the anyone who have faith and believes in his son, Jesus, for forgiveness of sin, salvation and being right with God. It is a new beginning, a new life of a new relationship, for the individual between himself and God, through his faith in Jesus. 2 Co 5: 17 says, “if anyone is in union with Christ, he is a new creation; the old things passed away; look! new things have come into existence.”

The union with Christ is when you choose to have faith in Jesus and believe in him, baptized in his name. Leaving your god(s) behind, you exercising faith in Jesus, trusting him to reconcile you with God, for forgiveness of his sins and gaining salvation and thereby being made son of God. John wrote “to all who did receive him, he gave authority to become God’s children, because they were exercising faith in his name”. (John 1:12) Similarly, the apostle Paul wrote in Galatians 3:26, “You are all … sons of God through your faith in Christ Jesus”

Note the use all in those verses. There is no exclusive middle.

HOW DOES ANYONE BECOME BORN Again?
The following scriptures answers the question:
(John 1:12) However, to all who did receive him, he gave authority to become God’s children, because they were exercising faith in his name.

(1 John 5:1-4) Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born from God, and everyone who loves the one who caused to be born loves him who has been born from that one. By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and carry out his commandments. 

(Galatians 3:26) You are all, in fact, sons of God through your faith in Christ Jesus.

(1 John 2:29) If you know that he is righteous, [/u] you also know that everyone who practices righteousness has been born from him.

(1 John 3:9) [u]Everyone who has been born from God does not practice sin, for His seed remains in such one, and he cannot practice sin, for he has been born from God.

(1 John 5:18) We know that everyone who has been born from God does not practice sin, but the one born from God watches him, and the wicked one cannot take hold of him.

(1 John 4:7) Beloved ones, let us continue loving one another, because love is from God, and everyone who loves has been born from God and knows God.

I am guessing during your study, none of these verse were read. You would not be an exception because Jws do not know these scriptures exist. Put all these text side by side and it becomes clear who has the spiritual rebirth.

A few things are consistent and clear from the above quoted scriptures, born again comes by namely, believing in Jesus, having faith in him, not practicing sin anymore, being baptized, having a new personality, basically living in Christ Jesus. Exercising faith and believe in Jesus is what makes an individual to be born again. Basically, being born again is being a Christian. **

**Take note of this**
A True Christian is A True Christian. Anyone who claims a Christian but is not a true to it is no Christian.

needanswer:
I learnt from my study that to be born again, God's spirit will have to choose you, you cant choose yourself, Roman's 8:16.

Romans 8:16 - The spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are God’s children.

When JWs quote this scriptures, they only hear part of the story. Here is the other part.
Romans 8:14 - For all who are led by God’s spirit are indeed God’s sons

Are the 8m+ JWs not led by God's spirit? Is the leading by God's spirit limited to just a handful of people? Are family heads not led by God's spirit? How about single sisters? Pioneers? Publishers? If I remember correctly, they al claim being led by God's spirit at one point or another. In any case, all who are led by God's spirit are indeed God's son.

In fact, there is no way you read the Christian Greek scriptures without coming to see that all true Christians are spirit born. For this reason the watchtower tries to exclude more than 8m+ JWs from it, saying the Christian Greek scriptures was not written for them (those who claim the earthly hope) but only for the anointed. What are they reading it for?

Let me dig into Romans chapter 8
When a Witness or any one else asks, “How does one know whether he or she is of the ‘anointed’ class with heavenly hopes?” the standard response is to refer to Paul’s statement at Romans, chapter eight, verses 16, 17: "The spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are God’s children. If, then, we are children, we are also heirs, heirs indeed of God, but joint heirs with Christ, provided we suffer together that we may also be glorified together."

The official teaching has been, and is, that only those of the 144,000 “anointed” can have such ‘witness of the spirit,’ and that this would tell them that they were of the select group of 144,000 who alone could hope for heavenly life. All others could only be classed as “prospective” children of God and their hopes must be earthly. In reading the context, from the very start of the chapter, it is evident that the apostle Paul was indeed writing about two classes of people. But not two classes divided by their hope of either heavenly or earthly life in the future.

The two classes instead clearly were: those guided by God’s spirit, on the one hand, and those ruled by the sinful flesh, on the other. The contrast the apostle set forth was not between hope of life in heaven or of life on earth, but between life and death themselves, between friendship with God or enmity with God. As verses 6 through 9 state:

"For the minding of the flesh means death, but the minding of the spirit means life and peace; because the minding of the flesh means enmity with God, for it is not under subjection to God, nor, in fact can it be. So those who are in harmony with the flesh cannot please God. However, you are in harmony, not with the flesh, but with the spirit, if God’s spirit truly dwells in you. But if anyone does not have Christ’s spirit, this one does not belong to him."

There is no question about heavenly or earthly life in Paul’s discussion but simply whether one was living by God’s spirit or was instead living according to the sinful flesh. Paul made it clear that it was one thing or the other: Either one had God’s spirit and produced its fruitage or he was at enmity with God and did not belong to Christ. Without that spirit there could be no “life and
peace,” only death. If the person did have God’s spirit, then he was a son of God, for Paul states in Ro 8:14 "For all who are led by God’s spirit, these are God’s sons".

Those led by that spirit would have the “witness” of the spirit to that effect, including the evidence of its fruitage in their lives, somewhat similar to the way the Bible says that Abel, Enoch, Noah and others had “witness borne to them” that they were pleasing to God.

A true Christian in the first century could not be led by the sinful, fleshly spirit. The same is true today, a true Christian cannot also be led by the spirit of the flesh. A true Christian is one who does not mind the flesh, but the spirit. In simple terms, a true Christian is a true Christian. The inspired scriptures know no other. All are called to hear the voice of Jesus the good shepherd, show the same kind of faith and love, the same fruitage of the God’s spirit, enjoying the same relationship with Him as sons.

These things are really simple.

Wahala dey for person wey no wan the increase of faithful and loyal people in God's Organization!

See epistle just because you want to play "BIRD" so as to uproot what Jesus himself planted in the heart of God's sheep, shey ?Matthew 13:4

MightySparrow:
Truth your own way

See TRUTH Rottennaija's way below!

Here is it...

David, Abraham and other ancient servant of old were not born again. For all intent and purposes, the concept of spiritual rebirth did not exist until Jesus introduced it. David lived under the mosaic law covenant. Abraham lived in a different time. The faithful men and women listed in Hebrews 11 all lived in a different time. So the idea of born again does not/did not apply to them. The same is true of John the Baptist, he was not alive when Jesus introduced the idea of born again, or when the new Christ covenant came into effect in the night of Jesus death.

In Law, there is what is called an ex post facto law. It is a law that retroactively makes criminal an act that was not criminal at the time it was done. An example of an ex post facto law is a law passed in 1994 that applies to acts that occurred in 1989. Let's say smoking cigarette was legal in 2016 , then in 2020 the Nigeria government passes a law that makes smoking cigarette illegal and then makes the law ex post facto, applying the law to those who had smoke (probably even stopped) before the law came into effect and punishes these ones. What do you think about that such law? Is it not tyranny of authority? It may interest you to know that the Nigerian constitution prohibits ex post facto laws for its obvious reasons.

How does this apply?

All men from the times of Jesus are expected to have faith in him, his shed blood etc for salvation and forgiveness of sins. This came into effect when the new covenant came into faith in the night of Jesus' death. If Abraham, David etc are expected to do so when they are no longer alive (death and buried for 1000s of years), how is that fair and kind? That is not considering that God is one of Justice.

[b][/b]These are the fact, the ancient men/women mentioned in the bible had their names written in the book of life as it were by fulfilling the requirements of their time. Abraham was a man of outstanding faith, the bible refers to him as the father of all those having faith. David was described by God as one whose heart agree with his. Same with Abel. God's prophets did their assignment faithfully. All these ones had their different requirement based on the time in which they lived and they were approved by God.

Now consider these. In 2006 when I had admission into the University to Study Engineering, Further Mathematics was not a requirement in my O'Level. (Math, Eng, Phy, Chem, Bio) where the requirements. In my year 3, Futher Mathematics was an O'Level entry requirement for anyone seeking admission into the university. I had since graduated. The University is not asking me to come present my O'Level Further Mathematics or risk losing my certificates. This would be an Ex Post Facto Law. The same in applicable in most areas... as an example, many who were employed into the government civil service in the 1980s were not required to have certain papers like Math (or could be required to have a Pass in Math). But today, it is required they have a Credit in Math.

Let me also add this as I had explained it sometimes ago in this forum. How about the thief on the left who was impaled with Jesus? He lived at the time of Jesus but did not partake of the emblem nor was said to be born again? But consider the facts, this man lived in the time of Jesus, but mostly in prison. He likely had heard a lot about Jesus and when he was impaled alongside him, he displayed exceeding faith in Jesus despite the scorn, mockery and ridiculed made by others. In response to the plea to remember him in his kingdom, Jesus made a direct promised that he would be with him in paradise.

Let me illustrate this way... there is an advertise vacancy for employment. Many are filling forms, some are queening for interview, screening etc. Then the CEO of the company probably on his way out or in; comes across an applicant, probably with non of the requirement for the job. Either by a stroke of luck or sympathy for the applicant dues to coming to know of the applicants' plight offered him/her automatic employment. In this case, the individual has not done any or all the things done by others for the job but is given the job anyway. We see this happen many times. Some call it unmerited favour. When you are chosen by God, you are automatically qualified.

needanswer:


I learnt from my study that to be born again, God's spirit will have to choose you, you cant choose yourself, Roman's 8:16.

And to cement that calling all those who are born again of the spirit must eat the holy communion, without that you havent sealed the calling. Did David, abraham, John the Baptist do any of this?

That was what what you learnt from your study as many JWs had learnt from their studies that the heavenly choosing was closed in 1935 and that if anything, those chosen are replacement to those who became disloyal. Of course, you must be aware this doctrine was discarded about 6 years ago after 70 years of believe. The same can be said about the generation believe of JWs, whose teaching has been abandoned, discarded, revisited severally. What is my point? Learning from your studies does not mean what you learn was true. It just is what is it... what you learnt.

Here is what you need to start doing. Anytime you learn new things, you need to have a proper study and research. When it concerns the bible, you need to study so well the verse, the chapter and the surrounding text. In fact, you need to learn the context of each portion of the bible. It will help you a great deal. In my experience, this is what the JWs fail (or do not know) to do.

Let me ask you, the idea of heavenly calling as explained by the JWs, does it make sense to you? How did those who claim to have the heavenly calling know they did? How do you know the person sitting next to you does not have it? Quoting Ro 8:16, they said "God's spirit bears witness with your spirit" that you are chosen. In what way? How? who? You see these are the messes you get yourself into when you begin to form believes that are not there. You dig more holes that are becoming increasingly difficult to fill and then neglect the most relevant scriptural text that actually addresses the topic.

Let me keep it this simple. How is someone born again? What is the new birth?

What does it mean to be born again?

"Born again" literally means "born from above." Other expressions used in the bible are: “a new creature”, “Baptized into Christ”, “Sons of God through faith”, “Children of God”, “new birth”. (2 Co 5:17, Ro 6:3, Ga 3:26, John 6:44, 1 Pe 1:3,23)

The “new birth”, is an act of God whereby eternal life is given to the anyone who have faith and believes in his son, Jesus, for forgiveness of sin, salvation and being right with God. It is a new beginning, a new life of a new relationship, for the individual between himself and God, through his faith in Jesus. 2 Co 5: 17 says, “if anyone is in union with Christ, he is a new creation; the old things passed away; look! new things have come into existence.”

The union with Christ is when you choose to have faith in Jesus and believe in him, baptized in his name. Leaving your god(s) behind, you exercising faith in Jesus, trusting him to reconcile you with God, for forgiveness of his sins and gaining salvation and thereby being made son of God. John wrote “to all who did receive him, he gave authority to become God’s children, because they were exercising faith in his name”. (John 1:12) Similarly, the apostle Paul wrote in Galatians 3:26, “You are all … sons of God through your faith in Christ Jesus”

Note the use all in those verses. There is no exclusive middle.

[b]HOW DOES ANYONE BECOME BORN AGAIN?[b]
The following scriptures answers the question:
(John 1:12) However, to all who did receive him, he gave authority to become God’s children, because they were exercising faith in his name.
(1 John 5:1-4) Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born from God, and everyone who loves the one who caused to be born loves him who has been born from that one. By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and carry out his commandments. 
(Galatians 3:26) You are all, in fact, sons of God through your faith in Christ Jesus.
(1 John 2:29) If you know that he is righteous, [/u]you also know that everyone who practices righteousness has been born from him.
(1 John 3:9) [u]Everyone who has been born from God does not practice sin, for His seed remains in such one, and he cannot practice sin, for he has been born from God.
(1 John 5:18) We know that everyone who has been born from God does not practice sin, but the one born from God watches him, and the wicked one cannot take hold of him.
(1 John 4:7) Beloved ones, let us continue loving one another, because love is from God, and everyone who loves has been born from God and knows God.

I am guessing during your study, none of these verse were read. You would not be an exception because Jws do not know these scriptures exist. Put all these text side by side and it becomes clear who has the spiritual rebirth.

A few things are consistent and clear from the above quoted scriptures, born again comes by namely, believing in Jesus, having faith in him, not practicing sin anymore, being baptized, having a new personality, basically living in Christ Jesus. Exercising faith and believe in Jesus is what makes an individual to be born again. Basically, being born again is being a Christian. **

**Take note of this**
A True Christian is A True Christian. Anyone who claims a Christian but is not a true to it is no Christian.


needanswer:


I learnt from my study that to be born again, God's spirit will have to choose you, you cant choose yourself, Roman's 8:16.


Romans 8:16 - The spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are God’s children.

When JWs quote this scriptures, they only hear part of the story. Here is the other part.
Romans 8:14 - For all who are led by God’s spirit are indeed God’s sons

Are the 8m+ JWs not led by God's spirit? Is the leading by God's spirit limited to just a handful of people? Are family heads not led by God's spirit? How about single sisters? Pioneers? Publishers? If I remember correctly, they al claim being led by God's spirit at one point or another. In any case, all who are led by God's spirit are indeed God's son.

In fact, there is no way you read the Christian Greek scriptures without coming to see that all true Christians are spirit born. For this reason the watchtower tries to exclude more than 8m+ JWs from it, saying the Christian Greek scriptures was not written for them (those who claim the earthly hope) but only for the anointed. What are they reading it for?

Let me dig into Romans chapter 8
When a Witness or any one else asks, “How does one know whether he or she is of the ‘anointed’ class with heavenly hopes?” the standard response is to refer to Paul’s statement at Romans, chapter eight, verses 16, 17: "The spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are God’s children. If, then, we are children, we are also heirs, heirs indeed of God, but joint heirs with Christ, provided we suffer together that we may also be glorified together."

The official teaching has been, and is, that only those of the 144,000 “anointed” can have such ‘witness of the spirit,’ and that this would tell them that they were of the select group of 144,000 who alone could hope for heavenly life. All others could only be classed as “prospective” children of God and their hopes must be earthly. In reading the context, from the very start of the chapter, it is evident that the apostle Paul was indeed writing about two classes of people. But not two classes divided by their hope of either heavenly or earthly life in the future.

The two classes instead clearly were: those guided by God’s spirit, on the one hand, and those ruled by the sinful flesh, on the other. The contrast the apostle set forth was not between hope of life in heaven or of life on earth, but between life and death themselves, between friendship with God or enmity with God. As verses 6 through 9 state:

"For the minding of the flesh means death, but the minding of the spirit means life and peace; because the minding of the flesh means enmity with God, for it is not under subjection to God, nor, in fact can it be. So those who are in harmony with the flesh cannot please God. However, you are in harmony, not with the flesh, but with the spirit, if God’s spirit truly dwells in you. But if anyone does not have Christ’s spirit, this one does not belong to him."

There is no question about heavenly or earthly life in Paul’s discussion but simply whether one was living by God’s spirit or was instead living according to the sinful flesh. Paul made it clear that it was one thing or the other: Either one had God’s spirit and produced its fruitage or he was at enmity with God and did not belong to Christ. Without that spirit there could be no “life and
peace,” only death. If the person did have God’s spirit, then he was a son of God, for Paul states in Ro 8:14 "For all who are led by God’s spirit, these are God’s sons".

Those led by that spirit would have the “witness” of the spirit to that effect, including the evidence of its fruitage in their lives, somewhat similar to the way the Bible says that Abel, Enoch, Noah and others had “witness borne to them” that they were pleasing to God.

A true Christian in the first century could not be led by the sinful, fleshly spirit. The same is true today, a true Christian cannot also be led by the spirit of the flesh. A true Christian is one who does not mind the flesh, but the spirit. In simple terms, a true Christian is a true Christian. The inspired scriptures know no other. All are called to hear the voice of Jesus the good shepherd, show the same kind of faith and love, the same fruitage of the God’s spirit, enjoying the same relationship with Him as sons.

These things are really simple.

MaxInDHouse:
Wahala dey for person wey no wan the increase of faithful and loyal people in God's Organization!

See epistle just because you want to play "BIRD" so as to uproot what Jesus himself planted in the heart of God's sheep, shey ?Matthew 13:4



Y
See TRUTH Rottennaija's way below!

That's it, which denomination is not claiming that Jesus planted them? Babalola claimed to have been called on s tractor. The place is a sort of Mecca to his followers today. Oyedepo claimed an 18 hours vision/ mission, Akindayomi claimed the name RCCG was given in a vision, of course, the unlettered man, was able to describe what he saw , this is celebrated by his followers today. Celestial and the monkey' luli' etc. So? How many of such have we all over the world?

Everyone has his own 'truth'
The celestial truth; RCCG truth,; LFC truth, JWs truth.

Everyone defending his territory. My friend, where you are is your own truth And are marked with indoctrinated errors.

I can't be deceived. Again 1924 is s scam, JEs truth!

Don't worry my friend, it's all delusion as you always say it's just that you're ever troubled by the irrefutable MARK of a difference as JWs stood out with the fruitage of God's Holy Spirit {Galatians 5:22-23} SEEN by all honest hearted individuals globally! Matthew 5:14, 7:16-18

However do you believe Jesus has any organized group of followers or are his followers scattered in all the religions including the "monkey' luli' etc" ?

MightySparrow:
That's it, which denomination is not claiming that Jesus planted them? Babalola claimed to have been called on s tractor. The place is a sort of Mecca to his followers today. Oyedepo claimed an 18 hours vision/ mission, Akindayomi claimed the name RCCG was given in a vision, of course, the unlettered man, was able to describe what he saw , this is celebrated by his followers today. Celestial and the monkey' luli' etc. So? How many of such have we all over the world?
Everyone has his own 'truth'
The celestial truth; RCCG truth,; LFC truth, JWs truth.
Everyone defending his territory. My friend, where you are is your own truth And are marked with indoctrinated errors.
I can't be deceived. Again 1924 is s scam, JEs truth!

MaxInDHouse:
Don't worry my friend, it's all delusion as you always say it's just that you're ever troubled by the irrefutable MARK of a difference as JWs stood out with the fruitage of God's Holy Spirit {Galatians 5:22-23} SEEN by all honest hearted individuals globally! Matthew 5:14, 7:16-18

However do you believe Jesus has any organized group of followers or are his followers scattered in all the religions including the "monkey' luli' etc" ?

Organisation!!!!!

rottennaija:
Here is it...

David, Abraham and other ancient servant of old were not born again. For all intent and purposes, the concept of spiritual rebirth did not exist until Jesus introduced it. David lived under the mosaic law covenant. Abraham lived in a different time. The faithful men and women listed in Hebrews 11 all lived in a different time. So the idea of born again does not/did not apply to them. The same is true of John the Baptist, he was not alive when Jesus introduced the idea of born again, or when the new Christ covenant came into effect in the night of Jesus death.

In Law, there is what is called an ex post facto law. It is a law that retroactively makes criminal an act that was not criminal at the time it was done. An example of an ex post facto law is a law passed in 1994 that applies to acts that occurred in 1989. Let's say smoking cigarette was legal in 2016 , then in 2020 the Nigeria government passes a law that makes smoking cigarette illegal and then makes the law ex post facto, applying the law to those who had smoke (probably even stopped) before the law came into effect and punishes these ones. What do you think about that such law? Is it not tyranny of authority? It may interest you to know that the Nigerian constitution prohibits ex post facto laws for its obvious reasons.

How does this apply?

All men from the times of Jesus are expected to have faith in him, his shed blood etc for salvation and forgiveness of sins. This came into effect when the new covenant came into faith in the night of Jesus' death. If Abraham, David etc are expected to do so when they are no longer alive (death and buried for 1000s of years), how is that fair and kind? That is not considering that God is one of Justice.

[b][/b]These are the fact, the ancient men/women mentioned in the bible had their names written in the book of life as it were by fulfilling the requirements of their time. Abraham was a man of outstanding faith, the bible refers to him as the father of all those having faith. David was described by God as one whose heart agree with his. Same with Abel. God's prophets did their assignment faithfully. All these ones had their different requirement based on the time in which they lived and they were approved by God.

Now consider these. In 2006 when I had admission into the University to Study Engineering, Further Mathematics was not a requirement in my O'Level. (Math, Eng, Phy, Chem, Bio) where the requirements. In my year 3, Futher Mathematics was an O'Level entry requirement for anyone seeking admission into the university. I had since graduated. The University is not asking me to come present my O'Level Further Mathematics or risk losing my certificates. This would be an Ex Post Facto Law. The same in applicable in most areas... as an example, many who were employed into the government civil service in the 1980s were not required to have certain papers like Math (or could be required to have a Pass in Math). But today, it is required they have a Credit in Math.

Let me also add this as I had explained it sometimes ago in this forum. How about the thief on the left who was impaled with Jesus? He lived at the time of Jesus but did not partake of the emblem nor was said to be born again? But consider the facts, this man lived in the time of Jesus, but mostly in prison. He likely had heard a lot about Jesus and when he was impaled alongside him, he displayed exceeding faith in Jesus despite the scorn, mockery and ridiculed made by others. In response to the plea to remember him in his kingdom, Jesus made a direct promised that he would be with him in paradise.

Let me illustrate this way... there is an advertise vacancy for employment. Many are filling forms, some are queening for interview, screening etc. Then the CEO of the company probably on his way out or in; comes across an applicant, probably with non of the requirement for the job. Either by a stroke of luck or sympathy for the applicant dues to coming to know of the applicants' plight offered him/her automatic employment. In this case, the individual has not done any or all the things done by others for the job but is given the job anyway. We see this happen many times. Some call it unmerited favour. When you are chosen by God, you are automatically qualified.


That was what what you learnt from your study as many JWs had learnt from their studies that the heavenly choosing was closed in 1935 and that if anything, those chosen are replacement to those who became disloyal. Of course, you must be aware this doctrine was discarded about 6 years ago after 70 years of believe. The same can be said about the generation believe of JWs, whose teaching has been abandoned, discarded, revisited severally. What is my point? Learning from your studies does not mean what you learn was true. It just is what is it... what you learnt.

Here is what you need to start doing. Anytime you learn new things, you need to have a proper study and research. When it concerns the bible, you need to study so well the verse, the chapter and the surrounding text. In fact, you need to learn the context of each portion of the bible. It will help you a great deal. In my experience, this is what the JWs fail (or do not know) to do.

Let me ask you, the idea of heavenly calling as explained by the JWs, does it make sense to you? How did those who claim to have the heavenly calling know they did? How do you know the person sitting next to you does not have it? Quoting Ro 8:16, they said "God's spirit bears witness with your spirit" that you are chosen. In what way? How? who? You see these are the messes you get yourself into when you begin to form believes that are not there. You dig more holes that are becoming increasingly difficult to fill and then neglect the most relevant scriptural text that actually addresses the topic.

Let me keep it this simple. How is someone born again? What is the new birth?

What does it mean to be born again?

"Born again" literally means "born from above." Other expressions used in the bible are: “a new creature”, “Baptized into Christ”, “Sons of God through faith”, “Children of God”, “new birth”. (2 Co 5:17, Ro 6:3, Ga 3:26, John 6:44, 1 Pe 1:3,23)

The “new birth”, is an act of God whereby eternal life is given to the anyone who have faith and believes in his son, Jesus, for forgiveness of sin, salvation and being right with God. It is a new beginning, a new life of a new relationship, for the individual between himself and God, through his faith in Jesus. 2 Co 5: 17 says, “if anyone is in union with Christ, he is a new creation; the old things passed away; look! new things have come into existence.”

The union with Christ is when you choose to have faith in Jesus and believe in him, baptized in his name. Leaving your god(s) behind, you exercising faith in Jesus, trusting him to reconcile you with God, for forgiveness of his sins and gaining salvation and thereby being made son of God. John wrote “to all who did receive him, he gave authority to become God’s children, because they were exercising faith in his name”. (John 1:12) Similarly, the apostle Paul wrote in Galatians 3:26, “You are all … sons of God through your faith in Christ Jesus”

Note the use all in those verses. There is no exclusive middle.

[b]HOW DOES ANYONE BECOME BORN AGAIN?[b]
The following scriptures answers the question:
(John 1:12) However, to all who did receive him, he gave authority to become God’s children, because they were exercising faith in his name.
(1 John 5:1-4) Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born from God, and everyone who loves the one who caused to be born loves him who has been born from that one. By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and carry out his commandments. 
(Galatians 3:26) You are all, in fact, sons of God through your faith in Christ Jesus.
(1 John 2:29) If you know that he is righteous, [/u]you also know that everyone who practices righteousness has been born from him.
(1 John 3:9) [u]Everyone who has been born from God does not practice sin, for His seed remains in such one, and he cannot practice sin, for he has been born from God.
(1 John 5:18) We know that everyone who has been born from God does not practice sin, but the one born from God watches him, and the wicked one cannot take hold of him.
(1 John 4:7) Beloved ones, let us continue loving one another, because love is from God, and everyone who loves has been born from God and knows God.

I am guessing during your study, none of these verse were read. You would not be an exception because Jws do not know these scriptures exist. Put all these text side by side and it becomes clear who has the spiritual rebirth.

A few things are consistent and clear from the above quoted scriptures, born again comes by namely, believing in Jesus, having faith in him, not practicing sin anymore, being baptized, having a new personality, basically living in Christ Jesus. Exercising faith and believe in Jesus is what makes an individual to be born again. Basically, being born again is being a Christian. **

**Take note of this**
A True Christian is A True Christian. Anyone who claims a Christian but is not a true to it is no Christian.




Romans 8:16 - The spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are God’s children.

When JWs quote this scriptures, they only hear part of the story. Here is the other part.
Romans 8:14 - For all who are led by God’s spirit are indeed God’s sons

Are the 8m+ JWs not led by God's spirit? Is the leading by God's spirit limited to just a handful of people? Are family heads not led by God's spirit? How about single sisters? Pioneers? Publishers? If I remember correctly, they al claim being led by God's spirit at one point or another. In any case, all who are led by God's spirit are indeed God's son.

In fact, there is no way you read the Christian Greek scriptures without coming to see that all true Christians are spirit born. For this reason the watchtower tries to exclude more than 8m+ JWs from it, saying the Christian Greek scriptures was not written for them (those who claim the earthly hope) but only for the anointed. What are they reading it for?

Let me dig into Romans chapter 8
When a Witness or any one else asks, “How does one know whether he or she is of the ‘anointed’ class with heavenly hopes?” the standard response is to refer to Paul’s statement at Romans, chapter eight, verses 16, 17: "The spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are God’s children. If, then, we are children, we are also heirs, heirs indeed of God, but joint heirs with Christ, provided we suffer together that we may also be glorified together."

The official teaching has been, and is, that only those of the 144,000 “anointed” can have such ‘witness of the spirit,’ and that this would tell them that they were of the select group of 144,000 who alone could hope for heavenly life. All others could only be classed as “prospective” children of God and their hopes must be earthly. In reading the context, from the very start of the chapter, it is evident that the apostle Paul was indeed writing about two classes of people. But not two classes divided by their hope of either heavenly or earthly life in the future.

The two classes instead clearly were: those guided by God’s spirit, on the one hand, and those ruled by the sinful flesh, on the other. The contrast the apostle set forth was not between hope of life in heaven or of life on earth, but between life and death themselves, between friendship with God or enmity with God. As verses 6 through 9 state:

"For the minding of the flesh means death, but the minding of the spirit means life and peace; because the minding of the flesh means enmity with God, for it is not under subjection to God, nor, in fact can it be. So those who are in harmony with the flesh cannot please God. However, you are in harmony, not with the flesh, but with the spirit, if God’s spirit truly dwells in you. But if anyone does not have Christ’s spirit, this one does not belong to him."

There is no question about heavenly or earthly life in Paul’s discussion but simply whether one was living by God’s spirit or was instead living according to the sinful flesh. Paul made it clear that it was one thing or the other: Either one had God’s spirit and produced its fruitage or he was at enmity with God and did not belong to Christ. Without that spirit there could be no “life and
peace,” only death. If the person did have God’s spirit, then he was a son of God, for Paul states in Ro 8:14 "For all who are led by God’s spirit, these are God’s sons".

Those led by that spirit would have the “witness” of the spirit to that effect, including the evidence of its fruitage in their lives, somewhat similar to the way the Bible says that Abel, Enoch, Noah and others had “witness borne to them” that they were pleasing to God.

A true Christian in the first century could not be led by the sinful, fleshly spirit. The same is true today, a true Christian cannot also be led by the spirit of the flesh. A true Christian is one who does not mind the flesh, but the spirit. In simple terms, a true Christian is a true Christian. The inspired scriptures know no other. All are called to hear the voice of Jesus the good shepherd, show the same kind of faith and love, the same fruitage of the God’s spirit, enjoying the same relationship with Him as sons.

These things are really simple.

I'll be brief. Right from Adam after they sinned, they knew about God's plan for the salvation of man, Genesis 3:15. That is the SEED. The promised seed was the ONLY way man could be saved from sin and death.

The blood of animals could never TAKE AWAY SIN PERMANENTLY, Hebrews 10:4. As such nobody could gain eternal life from them, because Adam a perfect man lost perfection, only another perfect man's death and not the death of goat, sheep or cows (who are not made in God's image) could make one gain eternal life.

Only the blood of the seed; Jesus christ as said in the beginning of time in the garden of eden could, genesis 3:15.

The ancients like abraham, david etc were AWARE of this, because God told them that the SEED will come from their lineage, hence they were all expectant of the SAVIOUR OF MANKIND, and this renders the Ex Post Facto Law ineffective.

The whole of the old testament points to the coming of the MESSIAH or SAVIOUR, even the Jews knew about the promised SEED, including those that hated jesus.

So it was only through christ death and through the eating of the holy communion that a servant of God can make heaven, there is no other way.

If you believe the blood of goat, sheep, and cows can take one to heaven then christ died for nothing. Then also the ransom doesnt add up either. How does the life of an animal lower than sinful man and not even a perfect man give eternal life? Its unheard of.


Also Adam lost perfect life on a paradise on earth. The ransom is to restore what Adam lost, as if taking us back to factory setting. Jesus death is to restore what Adam lost, it's that simple.

Adam did not lose perfect life in heaven as an angel, he lost it as a man on earth. God could simply have made us Angel's in the beginning if that was what he desired.

So the part were all Christians are born again and go to heaven doesnt add up. It's more like a fairy tale.

Like I said I'll keep it simple.

Just the highlighted!

So it is written “The first man Adam became a living person.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
1Corinthians 15:45

needanswer:
I'll be brief. Right from Adam after they sinned, they knew about God's plan for the salvation of man, Genesis 3:15. That is the SEED. The promised seed was the ONLY way man could be saved from sin and death.

The blood of animals could never TAKE AWAY SIN PERMANENTLY, Hebrews 10:4. As such nobody could gain eternal life from them, because Adam a perfect man lost perfection, only another perfect man's death and not the death of goat, sheep or cows (who are not made in God's image) could make one gain eternal life.

Only the blood of the seed; Jesus christ as said in the beginning of time in the garden of eden could, genesis 3:15.

The ancients like abraham, david etc were AWARE of this, because God told them that the SEED will come from their lineage, hence they were all expectant of the SAVIOUR OF MANKIND, and this renders the Ex Post Facto Law ineffective.

The whole of the old testament points to the coming of the MESSIAH or SAVIOUR, even the Jews knew about the promised SEED, including those that hated jesus.

So it was only through christ death and through the eating of the holy communion that a servant of God can make heaven, there is no other way.

If you believe the blood of goat, sheep, and cows can take one to heaven then christ died for nothing. Then also the ransom doesnt add up either. How does the life of an animal lower than sinful man and not even a perfect man give eternal life? Its unheard of.


Also Adam lost perfect life on a paradise on earth. The ransom is to restore what Adam lost, as if taking us back to factory setting. Jesus death is to restore what Adam lost, it's that simple.

Adam did not lose perfect life in heaven as an angel, he lost it as a man on earth. God could simply have made us Angel's in the beginning if that was what he desired.

So the part were all Christians are born again and go to heaven doesnt add up. It's more like a fairy tale.

Like I said I'll keep it simple.

MaxInDHouse:
Just the highlighted!

So it is written “The first man Adam became a living person.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
1Corinthians 15:45

Nice reference .

Excellent answer!
If you continue in this manner, everlasting life will certainly be yours.
When all Satan's agents are dragging territories and fighting over position, Jesus' followers came up with a staggering title "ORGANIZATION"

Know today that there can never be any group of people whether religious or nonreligious that can be ORGANIZED than the one and only group of people where the WONDERFUL COUNSELOR is working vigorously to make LOVE, JOY and PEACE reign! Isaiah 2:2-4, 9:6

Wàá pé láyé kánrin kése lórúko Jésù!

MightySparrow:
Organisation!!!!!

MaxInDHouse:
Excellent answer!
If you continue in this manner, everlasting life will certainly be yours.
When all Satan's agents are dragging territories and fighting over position, Jesus' followers came up with a staggering title "ORGANIZATION"

Know today that there can never be any group of people whether religious or nonreligious that can be ORGANIZED than the one and only group of people where the WONDERFUL COUNSELOR is working vigorously to make LOVE, JOY and PEACE reign! Isaiah 2:2-4, 9:6

Wàá pé láyé kánrin kése lórúko Jésù!

If not organized against God

That's why Jesus said you will know through the FRUIT they bear throughout the earth! Matthew 7:16-18
If LOVE, JOY and PEACE reigns in their midst globally then they must be for God, remember LOVE, JOY and PEACE can't come from Satan especially when it involves imperfect humans {Matthew 12:25} so such fine works is from God's Holy Spirit! James 2:18-26

MightySparrow:
If not organized against God

needanswer:
I'll be brief. Right from Adam after they sinned, they knew about God's plan for the salvation of man, Genesis 3:15. That is the SEED. The promised seed was the ONLY way man could be saved from sin and death.

The blood of animals could never TAKE AWAY SIN PERMANENTLY, Hebrews 10:4. As such nobody could gain eternal life from them, because Adam a perfect man lost perfection, only another perfect man's death and not the death of goat, sheep or cows (who are not made in God's image) could make one gain eternal life.

Only the blood of the seed; Jesus christ as said in the beginning of time in the garden of eden could, genesis 3:15.

The ancients like abraham, david etc were AWARE of this, because God told them that the SEED will come from their lineage, hence they were all expectant of the SAVIOUR OF MANKIND, and this renders the Ex Post Facto Law ineffective.

The whole of the old testament points to the coming of the MESSIAH or SAVIOUR, even the Jews knew about the promised SEED, including those that hated jesus.

So it was only through christ death and through the eating of the holy communion that a servant of God can make heaven, there is no other way.

If you believe the blood of goat, sheep, and cows can take one to heaven then christ died for nothing. Then also the ransom doesnt add up either. How does the life of an animal lower than sinful man and not even a perfect man give eternal life? Its unheard of.


Also Adam lost perfect life on a paradise on earth. The ransom is to restore what Adam lost, as if taking us back to factory setting. Jesus death is to restore what Adam lost, it's that simple.

Adam did not lose perfect life in heaven as an angel, he lost it as a man on earth. God could simply have made us Angel's in the beginning if that was what he desired.

So the part were all Christians are born again and go to heaven doesnt add up. It's more like a fairy tale.

Like I said I'll keep it simple.

That was my part 1 response. Unfortunately, my second response was removed by nairaland for whatever reason.

Below is my part 2 response.

rottennaija:
That was my part 1 response. Unfortunately, my second response was removed by nairaland for whatever reason.

Below is my part 2 response.

Okay. Didnt see your response below

Unless you booked space to type it out again.

MaxInDHouse:
That's why Jesus said you will know through the FRUIT they bear throughout the earth! Matthew 7:16-18
If LOVE, JOY and PEACE reigns in their midst globally then they must be for God, remember LOVE, JOY and PEACE can't come from Satan especially when it involves imperfect humans {Matthew 12:25} so such fine works is from God's Holy Spirit! James 2:18-26

Fruits?

YES FRUITS! Matthew 7:16-18

I wonder how intelligent beings like you could think that imperfect humans like you and i could just be pretending that there is LOVE, JOY and PEACE in their organization when the world's most brilliant intellectuals tried to do the same thing under other human organizations like UNESCO, UNICIEF, UNITED NATIONS, OPEC, WHO, FIFA, OLYMPICS and so on yet members of these organizations still loose their minds forgetting their agenda "to promote LOVE, JOY and PEACE amongst members globally" and carry weapons to exterminate one another!

Then another organization of imperfect humans from all the nations where these other organizations got their members emerged but this time members of this one are PRETENDING PERFECTLY so that LOVE, JOY and PEACE is working out globally before the eyes of everyone! Matthew 5:14
Haba, if JWs are aliens from another planet i'll say "maybe they're demons trying to deceive us with their pretext" but NO oooooo this people were gathered from the same nations where all other organizations both religious and nonereligious got their members {Micah 4:1-3} for instance one person from your own family has joined them, evidence to prove that members of that organization are real people not aliens!
So if you are now saying what we can all SEE with our eyes is just pretext of some kind please why can't any other organization perform likewise? Luke 12:10-12

MightySparrow:
Fruits?

needanswer:
Okay. Didnt see your response below

Unless you booked space to type it out again.

I have resorted to postings screenshot. I keep getting ban, I don't know why.